What's the most powerful spell level, pound-for-pound?

[Deathtongue]

I'm excluding level 9 for obvious reasons. Level 9 has True Polymorph and Wish. Those spells completely and utterly upend everything. So let's pretend that level doesn't exist. Nonetheless:

In terms of marginal utility on a dungeon crawl? Level 3.
In terms of marginal utility in a campaign setting? Level 7.

Level 3 is when you the spellcaster get to apply game effects that can't really be replicated or exceeded by non-casters in a short period of time. There are effects like this at the lower levels, like Phantasmal Force, but this is when this really starts to apply. This is the level in which spellcasters get distinguished from noncasters. Yes, you had Invisibility, but was it really better than a good Stealth check? Yes, you had Suggestion, but was it really better than a good Persuasion or Deception check? Yes, you have Alter Self, but was it really better than a good disguise check and/or a snorkel?

Level 7 is when you start to upend the whole campaign setting. Even though you get to do nonmagically impossible things like raising the dead and summoning elements at lower levels, level 7 is when the setting designers are forced to switch to wide-open sandbox mode. Game effects like Polymorph and Fly really shook things up, but you and other PCs were still ultimately at the mercy of things like caravan routes and ancient portals and bazaar schedules. Level 7 is pretty much the 'have at least 1 full spellcaster in your party or be prepared to fight reskinned orcs and be assigned tickets to the next railroad for the rest of your life' level.

[metaridley18]

Typically I've always been most excited for the odd spell levels. 1 because you're a caster now, and there's just an insane amount of day in day out utility in there. 3 because that's a tier upgrade. Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, oh my! I'm sure non arcane casters have some great stuff in there but I'm also sure I don't really care.

5 is the next tier upgrade. Polymorph and Dimension Door are awesome for 4, same with Confusion and Evard's, but they aren't on the same level as Teleport Circle and Wall of Stone/Force. At 5th level spells, you are shaping your word permanently. With Wall of Stone and TP Circle, you can build towers and keeps anywhere and still be connected to society. This is where clerics and druids can raise the dead, defying the time and tides and showing their true power.

7th level you already mentioned some reasons. It's another tier upgrade. Wizards are cloning minions, teleporting without beacons, shifting to other planes. They can also summon kick-ass mansions to live in at the drop of a hat. Clerics are extending their death defying abilities to new limits.

Obviously 9 needs no defense.


So which of these tiers is the most exciting, the most looked forward to? It kind of depends on the style of campaign you run. We typically start at level 1-3 and get up to 14ish, so levels 3 and 5 are what I look forward to the most. I think 3 is consistently the one I'm most pumped for.

[jaappleton]

Level 3 spells is where you get a major boost in "Holy crap, this changes things!" Fireball, Haste, Fly, etc. You feel a great sense of power when you first get third level spells. Fifth level spells has some great ones, but lacks a... There's no 5th level version of Fireball. Cone of Cold, sure, but it's just a Cold version of Fireball. It doesn't bring a sense of overwhelming power, in terms of offensive spells. In terms of 'encounter changers', I think 5th level falls behind 3rd level. Sure, Wall of Force has you making a hemispherical dome over a couple enemies so they can't participate in battle. Or cast Slow or Hypnotic Pattern at 3rd level.

[metaridley18]

Level 3 spells is where you get a major boost in "Holy crap, this changes things!" Fireball, Haste, Fly, etc. You feel a great sense of power when you first get third level spells. Fifth level spells has some great ones, but lacks a... There's no 5th level version of Fireball. Cone of Cold, sure, but it's just a Cold version of Fireball. It doesn't bring a sense of overwhelming power, in terms of offensive spells. In terms of 'encounter changers', I think 5th level falls behind 3rd level. Sure, Wall of Force has you making a hemispherical dome over a couple enemies so they can't participate in battle. Or cast Slow or Hypnotic Pattern at 3rd level.

I tend to agree with you that 3 has more oomph than 5, but in defense of 5.

Wall of Stone is the first major permanent spell you get so I always eagerly anticipate it.

Animate Objects has a level of mastery of the battlefield that is unmatched. Bigby's Hand and Telekinesis are similarly cool. Sure you aren't wiping out amies with your fire, but you are raising armies of stones or what have you to fight for you. Or you're flinging that troll into the canyon every round.

Insect Plague is pretty damn cool for divine casters since they didn't have the fireball moment in 3.

[Contrast]

The downsides on spells like haste and fly (failing a concentration check at the wrong time can really screw you) knocks them out for me - they're still very good, don't get me wrong, just not the best.

It's difficult to argue that Fireball isn't a defining spell. Everyone with access to it is going to prepare it and cast it. The AoE and damage are just really really powerful and change the way a DM had to structure encounters pretty significantly if they don't just want enemies to be instantly out of it.

That said, my personal favourite spell is Faerie Fire. Its only level 1 and can have such a huge impact. There are a number of cons in that is a dex save and requires concentration but there aren't many level 1 spells that I could feasibly see causing a boss monster to burn a legendary save on or for a high level caster to still be using on a regular basis.

Edit - Whoops just realised I misread the thread premise. Yeah I think level 3 is the largest bump in power.

[RickAllison]

Rebuttal for the power of the even-level spells (at least for the Arcane): They contain the social manipulation of the spells. 2nd has Suggestion, Detect Thoughts (so you can actually read the people you interact with), and Invisibility. 4th has Arcane Eye (for efficient spying), Locate Creature (finding the right person), and Private Sanctum (so your machinations aren't overheard), as well as Fabricate (with the right proficiency, make any forgery you like, or keys, or any item useful for persuasion). 6th has Programmed Illusion for propoganda purposes and Mass Suggestion for swaying crowds. 8th has Sympathy/Antipathy (to attract people to your cause, or to cause others to flee from an enemy), Mind Blank (to prevent reading you), Control Weather (it endears you to the agricultural masses who rely on rain), and Clone (to protect you from assassination attempts and to put powerful allies under your sway by promises of similar protection).

You miss some very useful social spells like Modify Memory, but the social system is powered by the even-leveled spells. So if you are interested in that kind of power, those may be worth much more than the odd-leveled spells which place more favor on exploration and combat.

[solidork]

Maybe it's just my campaign, but Counterspell has been incredibly good. Being able to Counterspell Fireball is so good because Fireball is so good, but still.

[metaridley18]

Maybe it's just my campaign, but Counterspell has been incredibly good. Being able to Counterspell Fireball is so good because Fireball is so good, but still.

Counterspell is an autopick on every one of my casters. Sometimes I'll even counter a counter, which pissed my players off to no end.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

4th level is severely underrated. When applied well, Dimension Door creates surprise rounds that you couldn't normally achieve and provides infiltration and escape opportunities that remain relevant form levels 7-20. At the time you get it, Polymorph basically doubles your party's fighting strength. Banishment targets a weak save for a very powerful effect, and scales quite well. Conjure Minor Elementals can get you eight mud mephits who force saves vs. restrain on their action and when they die, which is a great way to bog down the game win an encounter with one spell. Resilient Sphere isn't just a decent debuff - it can save lives.

And that's just the wizard's list. Other Conjures, including fey, show up at level 4. Clerics get Divination.

Not to say that it beats level 3, what with Fireball, Animate Dead, Counterspell, Sending, and Fly, but it's close.

[Lawful Good]

8th has Sympathy/Antipathy (to attract people to your cause, or to cause others to flee from an enemy), Mind Blank (to prevent reading you), Control Weather (it endears you to the agricultural masses who rely on rain), and Clone (to protect you from assassination attempts and to put powerful allies under your sway by promises of similar protection).

Also the all-powerful Glibness for Bards and Warlocks.


bog down the game win an encounter with one spell.

Have a 4th level cookie.

[elsydeon]

4th level is severely underrated. When applied well, Dimension Door creates surprise rounds that you couldn't normally achieve and provides infiltration and escape opportunities that remain relevant form levels 7-20. At the time you get it, Polymorph basically doubles your party's fighting strength. Banishment targets a weak save for a very powerful effect, and scales quite well. Conjure Minor Elementals can get you eight mud mephits who force saves vs. restrain on their action and when they die, which is a great way to bog down the game win an encounter with one spell. Resilient Sphere isn't just a decent debuff - it can save lives.

And that's just the wizard's list. Other Conjures, including fey, show up at level 4. Clerics get Divination.

Not to say that it beats level 3, what with Fireball, Animate Dead, Counterspell, Sending, and Fly, but it's close.

Also a 4th level spell: Banishment aka Balor Be Gone

3rd level spells are the "sweet spot" for sure. Nothing changes combat like Fireball and Call Lightning and Lightning Bolt are more snipery for taking out JUST the main bad guy and not his hostages. Haste and Blink have also defined the Wizard's role in combat as a buffer/can't catch me. Animate Dead is getting some publicity nowadays, as it is no longer "for evil wizards only" and sending a bunch of disposable minions to grab the enemy casters works well.

Despite all these sweet spells, there is one that is insanely powerful that most people forget about: Leomund's Tiny Hut. Forget ever having to "go back to town" just to get some rest without an orc waking you up. Slap this down and get some sleep. Best of all, it is a ritual, so you can cast it normally or as a ritual (freebie if you are a wizard!!).

[Biggstick]

Pass without Trace.

Paladin in heavy armor.
Cleric in heavy armor.
Fighter in heavy armor.

With only a second level spell, you can guarantee an 11 roll at the very least for these normally unstealthy characters. This opens up a ton of options in regards to moving through any area where stealth is involved.

[BW022]

It can obviously vary based on the campaign, setting, other characters, etc. Detect magic can be massively useful in a campaign of massive traps. However, my general list for pound-for-pound spells.

3rd-level. With 1st and 2nd-level spells... find familiar. It is effectively a permanent extra perception check (often with reasonable pluses and features such as dark vision), a scout (often better than a rogue), scouting outdoors (especially if flying), spy, messenger, flying creature, guard while sleeping, etc. Cost is minor and it can be ritual cast, so brining it back isn't difficult. Ability to see through its senses can be useful for those without dark vision, or when spying. For a minor cost, you can resummons in a more useful form -- owl at night, bat in caves, eagle for outdoor scouting, rat for city scouting, etc.

7th-level. With 1st to 4th-levels spells... polymorph. As an offensive spell it can effectively take a creature out of the fight, allow you to capture a creature, or put it in a situation where it would have a hard/impossible time fighting back -- turn someone into a goat and then throw it off a bridge. It can also be put on another party member. As a giant ape or mammoth, they now have 150hp extra, plus strong attacks. It can also be cast on you, with the concentration issue. As a utility spell... it is insanely useful. Disguise yourself as a cat to spy on someone, turn into a giant eagle to carry party members over a wall, turn yourself into a snake to escape through bars, etc.