Punchinello
2017-02-14, 02:19 PM
Okay, so here's a little backstory. My current group consists of a 3 newish players and one very experienced player. We're playing 3.5. I'm one of the newish players. Our DM has never DM'ed before, but he's using a prefab campaign and doing a wonderful job in most regards. Our party consists of a Ranger, a Sorc, a Rogue (me), and a Monk (our experienced player.) We're all level 5. Over the 4-5 months that we've been playing together we have pretty much developed a routine when it comes to combat. The Sorc and the Ranger sit in the back and spit damage at monsters while the Monk and I wade into mele and try to flank foes for sneak attacks and body block for our squishies.
The problem that I need help with has to do with character deaths. Precisely, our DM (at the urging of our Monk who is the more experienced player) tries really hard not to kill PCs. Instances have come up where the DM freely admits to having pulled punches from the monster's side in order to avoid PC deaths. The latest instance of this happened in our last session when we were ambushed on a sea voyage by flying sharks. We were spread out all over the deck of our ship and 4 sharks leaped out of the water and started to bite at us. Our Ranger begun combat by taking a few shots at the closest sharks and inadvertently (after rolling a couple of 1's) shot our Sorc in the back of the head. Sorc went down near the helm of the ship to the first enemy attack after being wounded by friendly fire and was unconscious. Our Monk used his turn to run to the Sorc and give him a potion that he had in his own pocket to bring him back up. This left our Ranger stuck between the shark that attacked him and the one that had initially attacked the Monk. Ranger decides that his best course of action is to 5 foot step out of mele range and double shot at the two sharks that were flanking him. On their next round the sharks down our courageous Ranger and then split off to attack me and the 2 other party members near the front of the ship. We easily pass the DPS check required to kill the remaining sharks and stabilize/heal the Ranger once combat ends.
After the session I spoke to the DM about what the justification was for not having the sharks eat the Ranger when he was down. The explanation that I got was basically "that would have killed him." That led into a lengthy discussion/argument between me and the Monk over when and how player deaths are appropriate. I was arguing that without the possibility of real danger the combat that we face feels monotonous. We simply stand and fight in every encounter and easily win the DPS race. There was never any thought in the minds of our Ranger or Sorc that they might actually die and should therefore attempt to flee or position themselves away from danger. The Ranger could have easily fled below deck when the Monk withdrew to help the Sorc. He could have used his spells to immobilize the sharks before they got to him. He could have retreated up the stairs to higher ground at the bow of the ship, or even joined the Monk and Sorc at the stern to find safety in numbers. Instead he did what has become his normal routine, which is to get out of attack of opportunity range and then deal as much damage as possible. My friend, who has been playing for decades, only retort was that "PC deaths are unfun."
Combat plays out the same way in every encounter for our party; We stand and fight until we go down. After combat ends the party members that are left standing then heal up the unconscious party members and we move on to the next combat. Every fight feels exceedingly similar in that respect. We have rarely had to think tactically about how to engage enemies because there have never really been any consequences to running headlong into each and every encounter. We have never had to run from a fight, or even take time away from dealing damage to re-position or move to safety. The Ranger never had to think about the consequences of choosing to stand and fight the sharks, and even our Sorc basically stood 5 feet from the Shark that downed him and threw magic missiles after he was revived. From a Rogue's perspective this feels pretty cheap. Having invested quite a bit of my characters budget (both in gold/skills/feats and identity) into being able to survive sticky situations I feel somewhat useless when compared to the glass cannons we have in the back line. Sure, I can do decent damage, but only when I pick my time to strike in an intelligent way. Our Ranger regularly pulls 50% or more of our total party damage while doing nothing more than taking a 5 foot step out of threat range and loosing a couple of arrows each turn. He hasn't invested any time into figuring out the intricacies of his class. To date he has yet to cast a spell or use his animal companion. Put simply, his fantasy is to spit arrows and roll big numbers. If that's what he enjoys, then so be it, I have no problem with that. However, it severely limits the available space for anyone else to really participate in combat. We have no opportunities to have to think tactically or use teamwork to outsmart our foes. Our Sorc plays a very similar style to our Ranger, e.g. sits in the back and spams as much damage as possible until things die or he runs out of spells. My question to the community is this: Would you have any suggestions for ways that might make combat feel more tactical or meaningful? Every fight boils down to a DPS race. I don't want to sound like I'm whining about not doing as much damage as another PC (that's how the more experienced player in our group took it) but when so much of my character's identity is involved in using finesse and intelligent fighting to vanquish foes I've found myself feeling quite useless to the party when we never get presented with encounters that might require more thought than just ****ting damage onto as many targets as possible before you go down. The most depth that I've gotten has come from figuring out ways to flank enemies with our Monk so that I can do SA damage. Even after all the effort and danger required to successfully execute these maneuvers the exercise feels somewhat trivial. Under ideal circumstances when we execute perfectly the Monk and I can combine our forces to deal almost as much damage as either of our two ranged characters can consistently do with zero effort required. I suggested to the DM that our backline should probably be out damaging the rest of the party when the circumstances are right and when we can provide them with safety, but that they should also fear dying if they don't take time away from ****ting damage to play defensively every once in awhile. Our Ranger and Sorc should be able to out damage the mele PCs in certain circumstances, but not in every single encounter, and especially not when they/we as a group put very little thought or effort into setting them up for those moments. As a new player I'm somewhat unfamiliar with how common these types of issues are. The analogy that I draw in my head is to League of Legends where the squishy character's get to do the most damage but only when properly set up to do so. Otherwise they are forced to kite around the edges of combat and think tactically or risk getting punished. I don't want to see any of the PCs in our group get killed off, and I appreciate the roles that we all play in the party, but combat has begun to feel repetitive and unappealing because there don't seem to be any checks or balances on when our squishies get to live out their “end game fantasy” of being immobile nukers. My DM was receptive to my point and agreed that most of our combats play out very similarly, but he is a new DM and is understandably cautious about killing off PCs so he doesn't really know what to do. Thoughts? Am I taking an unrealistic approach to how complicated/tactical combat should be? Is taking a 5 foot step out of threat range and shooting the closest target SOP for archers and mages in D&D?
Again, I don't want to come across as being jealous of another PC's ability to deal damage. It's awesome when our party springs a trap and melts faces and it has led to some incredibly interesting and memorable moments. However, when our parties default tactic is to simply kick in a door and shoot whatever is on the other side of it, combat feels fundamentally flawed and un-compelling. The sweet moments come when we are able to work as a group and all participate. We rarely find those moments however, because without the possibility for real punishment the most efficient course of action is to do as much damage as quickly as possible before going down. We play with the knowledge that unless there is a TPK the chances of any member of our party dying are practically zero. I hate the idea of surprise round insta-gibbing one of my friends, but I also hate knowing that we go into every encounter with near impunity. I've been on the receiving end of our DM's grace several times, as has every other member of my party. I wholly appreciate instances where the DM fudges the numbers to avoid killing a PC when we weren't given the opportunity to play something differently. I really dislike the instances where the DM saves a PC from their own stupidity over and over and over again without the player learning from their previous mistakes.
TL:DR
New DM is afraid of killing PCs. Combat doesn't feel dangerous or compelling. Looking for suggestions.
The problem that I need help with has to do with character deaths. Precisely, our DM (at the urging of our Monk who is the more experienced player) tries really hard not to kill PCs. Instances have come up where the DM freely admits to having pulled punches from the monster's side in order to avoid PC deaths. The latest instance of this happened in our last session when we were ambushed on a sea voyage by flying sharks. We were spread out all over the deck of our ship and 4 sharks leaped out of the water and started to bite at us. Our Ranger begun combat by taking a few shots at the closest sharks and inadvertently (after rolling a couple of 1's) shot our Sorc in the back of the head. Sorc went down near the helm of the ship to the first enemy attack after being wounded by friendly fire and was unconscious. Our Monk used his turn to run to the Sorc and give him a potion that he had in his own pocket to bring him back up. This left our Ranger stuck between the shark that attacked him and the one that had initially attacked the Monk. Ranger decides that his best course of action is to 5 foot step out of mele range and double shot at the two sharks that were flanking him. On their next round the sharks down our courageous Ranger and then split off to attack me and the 2 other party members near the front of the ship. We easily pass the DPS check required to kill the remaining sharks and stabilize/heal the Ranger once combat ends.
After the session I spoke to the DM about what the justification was for not having the sharks eat the Ranger when he was down. The explanation that I got was basically "that would have killed him." That led into a lengthy discussion/argument between me and the Monk over when and how player deaths are appropriate. I was arguing that without the possibility of real danger the combat that we face feels monotonous. We simply stand and fight in every encounter and easily win the DPS race. There was never any thought in the minds of our Ranger or Sorc that they might actually die and should therefore attempt to flee or position themselves away from danger. The Ranger could have easily fled below deck when the Monk withdrew to help the Sorc. He could have used his spells to immobilize the sharks before they got to him. He could have retreated up the stairs to higher ground at the bow of the ship, or even joined the Monk and Sorc at the stern to find safety in numbers. Instead he did what has become his normal routine, which is to get out of attack of opportunity range and then deal as much damage as possible. My friend, who has been playing for decades, only retort was that "PC deaths are unfun."
Combat plays out the same way in every encounter for our party; We stand and fight until we go down. After combat ends the party members that are left standing then heal up the unconscious party members and we move on to the next combat. Every fight feels exceedingly similar in that respect. We have rarely had to think tactically about how to engage enemies because there have never really been any consequences to running headlong into each and every encounter. We have never had to run from a fight, or even take time away from dealing damage to re-position or move to safety. The Ranger never had to think about the consequences of choosing to stand and fight the sharks, and even our Sorc basically stood 5 feet from the Shark that downed him and threw magic missiles after he was revived. From a Rogue's perspective this feels pretty cheap. Having invested quite a bit of my characters budget (both in gold/skills/feats and identity) into being able to survive sticky situations I feel somewhat useless when compared to the glass cannons we have in the back line. Sure, I can do decent damage, but only when I pick my time to strike in an intelligent way. Our Ranger regularly pulls 50% or more of our total party damage while doing nothing more than taking a 5 foot step out of threat range and loosing a couple of arrows each turn. He hasn't invested any time into figuring out the intricacies of his class. To date he has yet to cast a spell or use his animal companion. Put simply, his fantasy is to spit arrows and roll big numbers. If that's what he enjoys, then so be it, I have no problem with that. However, it severely limits the available space for anyone else to really participate in combat. We have no opportunities to have to think tactically or use teamwork to outsmart our foes. Our Sorc plays a very similar style to our Ranger, e.g. sits in the back and spams as much damage as possible until things die or he runs out of spells. My question to the community is this: Would you have any suggestions for ways that might make combat feel more tactical or meaningful? Every fight boils down to a DPS race. I don't want to sound like I'm whining about not doing as much damage as another PC (that's how the more experienced player in our group took it) but when so much of my character's identity is involved in using finesse and intelligent fighting to vanquish foes I've found myself feeling quite useless to the party when we never get presented with encounters that might require more thought than just ****ting damage onto as many targets as possible before you go down. The most depth that I've gotten has come from figuring out ways to flank enemies with our Monk so that I can do SA damage. Even after all the effort and danger required to successfully execute these maneuvers the exercise feels somewhat trivial. Under ideal circumstances when we execute perfectly the Monk and I can combine our forces to deal almost as much damage as either of our two ranged characters can consistently do with zero effort required. I suggested to the DM that our backline should probably be out damaging the rest of the party when the circumstances are right and when we can provide them with safety, but that they should also fear dying if they don't take time away from ****ting damage to play defensively every once in awhile. Our Ranger and Sorc should be able to out damage the mele PCs in certain circumstances, but not in every single encounter, and especially not when they/we as a group put very little thought or effort into setting them up for those moments. As a new player I'm somewhat unfamiliar with how common these types of issues are. The analogy that I draw in my head is to League of Legends where the squishy character's get to do the most damage but only when properly set up to do so. Otherwise they are forced to kite around the edges of combat and think tactically or risk getting punished. I don't want to see any of the PCs in our group get killed off, and I appreciate the roles that we all play in the party, but combat has begun to feel repetitive and unappealing because there don't seem to be any checks or balances on when our squishies get to live out their “end game fantasy” of being immobile nukers. My DM was receptive to my point and agreed that most of our combats play out very similarly, but he is a new DM and is understandably cautious about killing off PCs so he doesn't really know what to do. Thoughts? Am I taking an unrealistic approach to how complicated/tactical combat should be? Is taking a 5 foot step out of threat range and shooting the closest target SOP for archers and mages in D&D?
Again, I don't want to come across as being jealous of another PC's ability to deal damage. It's awesome when our party springs a trap and melts faces and it has led to some incredibly interesting and memorable moments. However, when our parties default tactic is to simply kick in a door and shoot whatever is on the other side of it, combat feels fundamentally flawed and un-compelling. The sweet moments come when we are able to work as a group and all participate. We rarely find those moments however, because without the possibility for real punishment the most efficient course of action is to do as much damage as quickly as possible before going down. We play with the knowledge that unless there is a TPK the chances of any member of our party dying are practically zero. I hate the idea of surprise round insta-gibbing one of my friends, but I also hate knowing that we go into every encounter with near impunity. I've been on the receiving end of our DM's grace several times, as has every other member of my party. I wholly appreciate instances where the DM fudges the numbers to avoid killing a PC when we weren't given the opportunity to play something differently. I really dislike the instances where the DM saves a PC from their own stupidity over and over and over again without the player learning from their previous mistakes.
TL:DR
New DM is afraid of killing PCs. Combat doesn't feel dangerous or compelling. Looking for suggestions.