What makes you pick a 3/4's BAB classes without spells over ones that have spells?

[BoutsofInsanity]

What do you want in 3/4's BAB classes that don't cast spells that draw you to play them over ones that do cast spells?

For Example: When you are picking a Pathfinder class that isn't a full BAB class, what do you expect out of it's class design or features if it doesn't have spell casting.

This is promted because I've noticed in Advanced Class guide, every class in there has access to spellcasting except the Brawler and Slayer. Which both are combat capable classes, with some skill or combat versitility and Full BAB. But each of the other classes have casting somewhere in their chasis, and none of them except the Bloodrager have full BAB.

I'm about to design a custom class for Pathfinder, and found the design choice interesting enough to pay attention to it.

So what makes you pick a 3/4's BAB class that doesn't have spellcasting? What makes a 3/4's BAB class good, if it doesn't have spellcasting?

Or, what would you want to see in a 3/4's BAB class if it doesn't have spell casting in order for you to pick it?

[Ssalarn]

I think you really need to have utility equivalent to at least some magic. Rogue is probably the only real 3/4 class without some form of magic in 1pp, and even they have a huge amount of skills and can interact with magic through talents and UMD.

Most 3/4 classes also have some way to swing at full BAB equivalent potency. They may not have the same number of attacks or gain feats at the same rate, but things like the Inquisitor's Judgements, the Investigator's Alchemy and Studied Strike, etc. mean that when they do swing, it's worthwhile and effective.

The biggest advantage to 3/4 BAB classes is generally that you can shove more stuff in. If you're not full BAB, and you don't have magic, you should have a serious slew of badass class features available, strong skill facility, and cool tricks for doing things in unique or unexpected ways.

[D.M.Hentchel]

Really big numbers is the answer, if I gave up full BAB and Spellcasting I better kick ass at the thing I do (eg. Sneak Attack for boats of damage)

[Ssalarn]

Really big numbers is the answer, if I gave up full BAB and Spellcasting I better kick ass at the thing I do (eg. Sneak Attack for boats of damage)

Note that Sneak Attack is flash without a lot of substance; mathematically you're almost always better off just using a full BAB class with Power Attack and a greatsword (or a nodachi if you want to get creative). It's nice, but it's a consolation prize that looks better on full BAB classes like the Slayer, even at a reduced rate.
Debuffing is always cool; if your attacks aren't hitting quite as hard but each strike is making an enemy weaker, easier to hit, or setting up some other condition that ends the fight more quickly, and/or allows you to use options like Sneak Attack more efficiently and effectively, that's always a plus.

[BWR]

Because I like the class and the character concept, maybe?

Not everything has to be about what is more powerful. Spells are fun but everything having spells is boring.

[Psyren]

The Metamorph Alchemist (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/metamorph-alchemist-archetype) is a 3/4 BAB class with no spells, extracts or bombs. It's a bit rough at low levels (the mutagen helps slightly), but at 5+ can be a formidable archetype.

[Serafina]

I'd really like some supernatural effects after the first few levels - sadly, that's really not the case with any of the classes, except maybe the Quingong Monk or the Ninja.

Otherwise, my answer would be "because it can do something unique and useful no other class can" - but frankly, such a thing doesn't exist. Basically any support for a character concept I can find in a non-spellcasting class, I can find in a spellcasting class too (at least if you stay with first-party material, if you go into third-party such as Path of War, this gets much better).

[BoutsofInsanity]

So what I am seeing here is the consensus is, that it should have a slew of features that really attract you over that make up for the lack of power in spells or sword.

Like the Unchained Rogue as an example because they can debuff, do lots of skill things, attack through one stat (Dex), and have a slew of defensive options.

Or the Ninja which has a ton of supernatural defensive and offensive capabilities along with skills and natural evasive progression?

How much is too far and how much is too little?

[Psyren]

How much is too far and how much is too little?

As long as you're T3 you should be gold. There are tons of lists out there.

[Eldonauran]

I think you really need to have utility equivalent to at least some magic. Rogue is probably the only real 3/4 class without some form of magic in 1pp, and even they have a huge amount of skills and can interact with magic through talents and UMD.

You may be unaware of the Eldritch Scoundrel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue/) archetype from Arcane Anthologies. Gives the rogue the magus spellcasting at the cost of half-normal progression of rogue talents and sneak attack. Trapsense gets altered a little, you have to pick up uncanny dodge/imp uncanny dodge as talent. However, they get the neat option to fuel any abilities that require Ki with their spell slots. If I every play a Rogue, it will be with this archetype.


What makes you pick a 3/4's BAB classes without spells over ones that have spells?
For me, it comes down to the options that class offers. My schtick is how versatile my characters are. I never build something for the sole purpose of doing ONE thing better than everyone else. It is more like, second best at the thing, and if that doesn't work, I have these other three options that are just as good and you are likely to lose by the end of it. Or I can get away. Both are good options.

Generally, I prefer 6th level spellcasting with my 3/4 BAB. If I can't get that, give me something like the kineticist.


How much is too far and how much is too little?
Easy to answer, hard to help. Too much is when no one wants to play anything else with 3/4 BAB. Too little is no one whats to play it.