Theory crafting ways of fixing hexblade. What do you guys think?

[Prince_Vorrel]

Now let me get something straight, I REALLY like hexblade. I love the idea of being a spellcaster who makes deals with this powerful artifact for martial power as well magical abilities. Since its rare to get spell casters dipping into martial prowess while martial characters dipping into spell casting is very common. But does anyone else feel like this hexblade is TOO martial? As well as having a weird almost out of place ability like shadow hound?

I was thinking how to fix this and was also wanting to see if you guys had some ideas after looking at mine.

First things first.

Throw that darn using your charisma instead of strength or dex onto the Blade pact this makes it so multiclassing into hexblade is a little less obscene for charisma using classes. While also letting you use charisma for two-handed weapons.

Second!

Take away the uber-smite ability from the unique blade pact invocations and instead change it and have it replace the level 6 ability, replacing shadow hound and change it's description to this. Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects and the caster expends a WARLOCK spell slot and deals 2d8 points of force damage to the creature. The caster is then unable to cast this spell again until the end of their next turn.

This gets rid of that weird shadow hound ability and turns this uber-smite into a powerful melee SPELL that gives the hexblade a LOT of power. However thanks to the warlocks limited spell slots AND the one turn cool down it becomes a lot more balanced.

and finally i would change a handful of invocations!

Prerequisite: The Great Old One patron, Pact of
the Blade feature
You can create a black, lead flail using your Pact
of the Blade feature. The flail’s head is sculpted
to resemble a pair of grasping tentacles. The
weapon has the reach property. When you hit a
creature with it you can cast chill touch on the creature as a bonus action.

Prerequisite: The Hexblade patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a greatsword forged from silver,
with black runes etched into its blade, using your
Pact of the Blade feature. If you reduce a target
cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse to 0 hit points
with this sword, you can immediately change the
target of the curse to a different creature. This
change doesn’t extend the curse’s duration.
When you hit a creature with it you can cast Sword Burst as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Fiend patron, Pact of the Blade
feature
When you create your pact weapon as a mace, it
manifests as an iron mace forged in Dis, the
second of the Nine Hells. When you hit a creature
with it, you can cast Fire Bolt on the creature as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Archfey patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a longbow using your Pact of the
Blade feature. When you draw back its string
and fire, it creates an arrow of white wood,
which vanishes after 1 minute. You have
advantage on attack rolls against lycanthropes
with the bow. When you hit a creature with it,
you can cast Sacred Flame on the creature as a bonus action


I know these ideas are probably terrible and horribly balanced but I wanted to try and play with the idea of making the hexblade feel more like a caster that uses a weapon instead of a martial class that just so happens to have a 3 or so spells he can cast after resting. Let me know what you think!

[Douche]

Why do people dislike the shadow hound so much? I like the idea of having a pet that will follow people for you undetected & instill them with a sense of dread. It makes the warlock seem like a stalker-killer

People saying it doesn't make sense just don't have an imagination

[Prince_Vorrel]

Why do people dislike the shadow hound so much? I like the idea of having a pet that will follow people for you undetected & instill them with a sense of dread. It makes the warlock seem like a stalker-killer

People saying it doesn't make sense just don't have an imagination

*shrug* it just doesn't scream hexblade to me. Getting my power from some sorta ancient artifact weapon dealio makes me think of elric and stormbringer and Arthas and Frostmourne. So i kinda hat a power/feel like that. Like this weapon in my hand is a conduit to a greater power and I almost feed off of it to increase my power and in turn wield it letting the weapon satiate its hunger for combat and death.

getting a stalker dog doesnt real evoke that feeling. Throwing a evil divine smite with some balance changes DOES feel like that.

[Steampunkette]

Personally I love the shadow hound. Though for flavor purposes I'll probably have it be a curse of dread or a shadow dagger that impales a person's shadow, if and when I get to play a Hexblade.

Why? 'Cause even a melee character needs ranged damage, sometimes. And siccing my shadow beast onto an enemy hiding behind a low wall while I'm killing his friends is cool. Turning and throwing "Unerring" Eldritch Blasts is cooler.

It may not help you in melee combat, but it's great for when you have to do some short ranged fighting.

[jaappleton]

The concept of the shadow hound doesn't fit mechanically with the Hexblade at all. Nothing about it screams tracker, nothing says hellhound, nothing.

I'd eliminate the concept of the hound completely, and instead keep the shadow possessing concept. Keep it as it is, with the tracking, but add two abilities. Maybe one of these, if its too strong.

1. If you possess the shadow of your Hexblade's Curse target, you are considered to have Truesight in detecting the target. (No benefits for Invisiblity, etc)

2. You have advantage on Intimidation (Charisma) checks against the target.

This provides a RP, social aspect to the Hexblade that it's lacking, with the Intimidation checks. And it provides a benefit against your Curse target, which is ONE target per short rest (save for Curse Bringer). Since it's only one target, every so often, I don't think Truesight is too much.

[Sception]

I love the hound, conceptually, but i agree that hexblade isn't the place for it.

I think fixes to the hexblade shouldn't include changes to the base class. As such, putting cha to attack onto the bladelock is kind of a no go. imo, instead make it one of the pact blade invocations. basically, give the hexblade two different unique blades, a greatesword requiring strength to hit but dealing more damage, and a longsword that gets cha to hit and damage instead of strength. maybe even a third option (paired short swords?) for dex based hexblades.

re the smite: making it a spell is awkward. maybe just limit it to once a turn? or just lower the damage to be in line with paladin smite.

I like the idea of subbing out the 6th level feature for something else, saving the shadow hound for a shadowcaster themed patron or pact boon. but im not sure about replacing it with the smite. that takes smiting away from non hexblade bladelocks. instead I would replace it with the curse bringers ability to shift your hex to another target after you kill the current one. imo thats too critical a class feature to restroct to an invocation anyway.

also, the hexblade is too front loaded, even after removing cha attacks. maybe move the expanded crit range to level 6 as well.

and the hex damage should scale with class level, not character level. instead of tying it to proficiency bonus, just start at plus 2 damage, and scale it with each patron feature?

finally, the level 10 ability is too strong, and too obnoxious. maybe instead, turn a single hit from a hexed target into a miss, as a reaction, once per rest?

[jaappleton]

I really don't think the expanded crit range is any sort of problem.

It's against ONE target. ONE. For one battle, once per short rest. If you fight four enemies per encounter and two encounters per short rest, that's two out of eight enemies each short rest that you have a 10% chance to crit on as opposed to 5%.

Really? That's so amazing? I'd MUCH rather it grant Advantage or something.

It doesn't negate being a Champion Fighter, who does it ALL THE TIME TO EVERYONE.

People are blowing the crit range thing way out of proportion.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why do people dislike the shadow hound so much? I like the idea of having a pet that will follow people for you undetected & instill them with a sense of dread.

I like it as well - it's just that it's horribly underused.

It's a great concept, but it just does so little that it's barely worth bothering with.

[RSP]

I like the idea of actually playtesting the material before drawing conclusions, but that's just me (I'm assuming the vast majority hasn't had the chance to play it fully yet in the 30 or so hours it's been released).

[Segev]

I'll agree that the shadow hound doesn't seem thematic with this patron. Why not just make it an Invocation that any Warlock can take? Give the patron something else.

[Herobizkit]

Short answer... the 4e Hexblade got several free Summon abilities as it leveled. The first one was an imp, then the next one was based on your pact. I *think* at least one of them was a Spectral Hound, but I'm not certain.

FWIW, I played a 4e Wellblade (Pact of the White Well) for 3 or so years, some of which were into 5e's infancy. My free Summon was a Mourning Handmaiden, a radiant-using fey/undead thing that was also a protector. I get where the UA was going, but I agree that while the Hound is not for everyone, that can be fluffed to anything so long as the mechanical benefit remains the same.

[jaappleton]

Short answer... the 4e Hexblade got several free Summon abilities as it leveled. The first one was an imp, then the next one was based on your pact. I *think* at least one of them was a Spectral Hound, but I'm not certain.

FWIW, I played a 4e Wellblade (Pact of the White Well) for 3 or so years, some of which were into 5e's infancy. My free Summon was a Mourning Handmaiden, a radiant-using fey/undead thing that was also a protector. I get where the UA was going, but I agree that while the Hound is not for everyone, that can be fluffed to anything so long as the mechanical benefit remains the same.

Ahh, the Pact of the White Well! I LOVED that pact! I desperately wish they'd bring it back for 5E! It was always odd it made enemies Radiant Vulnerable 3 but never really scaled. It was the... The Mourning Blade, right? That was the name of its weapon?

[Sception]

The essentials hexblade summons were based on and themed to your patron - summon fiends for fiend patron, summon fey for fey patron, summon lovecraftian beasts for star patron, shadow beasts for shadow patron, etc. 5e hexblades serve sentient weapons, not fiends or fey or stars or shadows. The summons don't still fit thematically with 5e's hexblade fluff.

[mephnick]

I'd rather a whole patron or subclass based around the shadow hound/summons, but fluffing it as a physical manifestation of the weapon's spirit is fine with me

[RSP]

The new Hexblades specifically deal with patrons that are sentient weapons made from the Shadowfell. The description indicates the Raven Queen may be the force behind the weapons as well. Thematically, gaining control of a shadow hound isn't far off from this description.

[jaappleton]

The new Hexblades specifically deal with patrons that are sentient weapons made from the Shadowfell. The description indicates the Raven Queen may be the force behind the weapons as well. Thematically, gaining control of a shadow hound isn't far off from this description.

But what in the nine hells does the shadow hound DO? It feels like a very incomplete feature. "Hey, here's a shadow hound. It doesn't attack. Can't be attacked. Really no considerable benefits to speak of. It's basically a ribbon ability, but as a core feature. So... Have fun with it."

WHAt's THE ----ING POINT?!

[Dr. Cliché]

But what in the nine hells does the shadow hound DO? It feels like a very incomplete feature. "Hey, here's a shadow hound. It doesn't attack. Can't be attacked. Really no considerable benefits to speak of. It's basically a ribbon ability, but as a core feature. So... Have fun with it."

WHAt's THE ----ING POINT?!

The worst part is when you compere it to the Shadow Hound sorcerers get.


What if it did something similar to that, but using a spell slot instead of spell points? Maybe it could gain some sort of benefit based on the level of spell slot used.

[RSP]

The negation of cover bonus is great for Eldritch Blast (just because you're a Hexblade doesn't mean you can't blast away every now and again). Knowing the location is great against enemies you expect can turn invisible.

its a decent enough ability.

[Sception]

The new Hexblades specifically deal with patrons that are sentient weapons made from the Shadowfell. The description indicates the Raven Queen may be the force behind the weapons as well. Thematically, gaining control of a shadow hound isn't far off from this description.

The shadowfell connection in the hexblades description was clearly stapled on after the fact to justify the hound, not the other way around. It too, should be removed. The Raven Queen already is a patron on her own, and curtailing the possible intelligent weapons offering hexblade pacts exclusively to shadow themed ones to justify the level 6 ability just because the designers couldn't think of anything actually sentient-weapon-themed to put there needlessly curtails character themes.

[jaappleton]

The negation of cover bonus is great for Eldritch Blast (just because you're a Hexblade doesn't mean you can't blast away every now and again). Knowing the location is great against enemies you expect can turn invisible.

its a decent enough ability.

In theory? I agree that it lets you know the location of creatures that would turn invisible. But its wording is very vague, and open to interpretation. It lets you know the location... So its somewhere in that 5ft square. Is it holding its action, waiting for you to run over there so it can backhand you? You know its location but can't actually SEE it. To me, that's a big issue.

On the subject of vague wording in it, it also 'fills the target with a sense of dread'. What's that do? Does that accomplish anything? Advantage on Intimidation checks? Anything going on there?

It just feels incredibly incomplete to me. Like they have a concept that they don't know how to put mechanics with.

[Starnite_iv]

I'd like to see the hound be the vehicle for the curse, with the hound taking the curse to each new target. That would make it so not everyone had to take curse bringer just to move the curse, and make the hound more flavorful.

[Sception]

I'd like to see the hound be the vehicle for the curse, with the hound taking the curse to each new target. That would make it so not everyone had to take curse bringer just to move the curse, and make the hound more flavorful.

Yes, this would be ideal. I'd still be skeptical of the thematics, but the mechanics would be a lot more meaningful, and I'm all for anything that would make curse bringer less obligatory.

[Deleted]

I'm starting to think that a lot of people who want to change the Hexblade have two issues.

1: They think Cha attacks at level 1 is over powered (it isn't, it doesn't have synergy with a lot of other class features and Wis to attack/damage is much better as Wis saves and all that... Even if you sneak attack with Cha, you won't be doing more damage than with Dex)

2: They think the hound isn't iconic (which having a familiar was a fun thing to use and/or optimize in 3.5)


From what I can see the UA Warlock (Hexblade) is pretty great the way it is. The only thing I would think may need changed up is Hexblade Curse. I would have it work around casting Hex on a creature.

[Sception]

The Cha attack has too issues:

too dippable, which is a problem, because multiclassing does exist as an option. You cannot introduce a class feature that either forecloses that option or would be foreclosed by that option being open, especially for a subclass that is still largely dependent on multiclassing to even function, since a single classed hexblade as written requires too many high stats, and thus needs to pick up heavy armor somehow in order to dump at least dex.

Hexblades can't use it, which relates to the 'needs too many stats' issue. Too much of the hexblade's mechanical gimmick is tied up in the hex for Curse Bringer to be considered optional, since it's the only available option to transfer it to a second target after the first dies. Since Curse Bringer is mandatory for main-classed hexblades (in a way that it isn't for, say, paladins just dipping a toe in), and Curse Bringer can only make attacks with strength, that forecloses the option to make your melee attacks based on cha, anyway.



The summons aren't iconic to the way hexblade is written, because they were what tied the previous hexblade to other patrons, patrons the new hexblade does not have. It's not a major complaint, but between the thematic and mechanical tenuousness of the current level 6 feature, and the desire to move some of the front-loaded aspects of the class to later levels, it's easy to see where the suggestions to drop it are coming from.

[Deleted]

The Cha attack has too issues:

too dippable, which is a problem, because multiclassing does exist as an option. You cannot introduce a class feature that either forecloses that option or would be foreclosed by that option being open, especially for a subclass that is still largely dependent on multiclassing to even function, since a single classed hexblade as written requires too many high stats, and thus needs to pick up heavy armor somehow in order to dump at least dex.

Hexblades can't use it, which relates to the 'needs too many stats' issue. Too much of the hexblade's mechanical gimmick is tied up in the hex for Curse Bringer to be considered optional, since it's the only available option to transfer it to a second target after the first dies. Since Curse Bringer is mandatory for main-classed hexblades (in a way that it isn't for, say, paladins just dipping a toe in), and Curse Bringer can only make attacks with strength, that forecloses the option to make your melee attacks based on cha, anyway.



The summons aren't iconic to the way hexblade is written, because they were what tied the previous hexblade to other patrons, patrons the new hexblade does not have. It's not a major complaint, but between the thematic and mechanical tenuousness of the current level 6 feature, and the desire to move some of the front-loaded aspects of the class to later levels, it's easy to see where the suggestions to drop it are coming from.

None of those Cha to attacks is an issue.

Even with multiclassing.

Putting it on a martial: Cha to attacks doesn't stack with Rage, GWM, or Sharpshooter. Putting it on a rogue is a wash as it doesn't add damage and you still need to invest in a defense stat (str if you gain heavy armor or 14 dex for light armor)

Putting it on a gish/Cha caster: Gains the most from this, sorcerer and warlock, but even then they aren't going to get a ton mileage out of it compared to their spells. Sorcerers can be squishy depending on origin and warlocks are already getting eldritch blast and can take crossbow expert (since feats are an option that will totally be used every single time :smallsigh:) and get melee cha to attack and damage via said eldritch blast (but force damage).

Putting it on a non-cha caster: They are better off with other options. Like... They are losing out on defense/health if they double up on their Casting Mod and Cha Mod.

So... Meh.

Any fringe case isn't going to unbalance the game anymore than the game is already unbalanced.


When it comes down to it, this is not and issue. Unless you think Crossbow Expert is an issue? Which it isn't.

[Sception]

I'm willing to admit that my perspective may be too clouded in coming from the paladin and paladin multiclass perspective, I've played approximately one paladin or part paladin for every non-paladin character I've played in this edition, though as pointed out by someone in the other thread, those weapon-attacking classes that work on cha gain way more from charisma based melee attacks than the ones who work on wis would gain from wisdom based melee attacks.


Even apart from that, the Curse Bringer issue remains. Dropping cha to attacks completely wouldn't meaningfully change the hexblade, and by closing an enticing trap option might make the subclass overall stronger.

If there's not a one handed equivalent of curse bringer introduced, or if hexblade isn't reorganized some manner to make the hex shifting & some version of the smite damage (even with a lower die or otherwise smaller) outside of curse bringer, a main-classed hexblade who skips cursebringer to take advantage of the cha attacks is actively hurting themselves.

[Byke]

Here are the fixes were are discussing at our table.

Shadow Hound and Curse Bringer feel awkward.

The whole feel should be about bonding with the weapon and it growing in power.

Curse Bringer should allows the Hexblade to conjure any type of blade, 1h, 2h and even dual blades. This would go along way to making Hexblade different in aesthetic and game play.

At our table we are looking at replacing the hound with a simple +1 at 6th to Curse Bringer, + 2 at 12th with the abilities to absorb a single magic weapon property, 18th + 3 and absorb all properties of one weapon or add a secondary magical property. (needs testing but that is the general idea)

We also added Charisma to all pact weapon into the Blade Pact.

[jaappleton]

Here are the fixes were are discussing at our table.

Shadow Hound and Curse Bringer feel awkward.

The whole feel should be about bonding with the weapon and it growing in power.

Curse Bringer should allows the Hexblade to conjure any type of blade, 1h, 2h and even dual blades. This would go along way to making Hexblade different in aesthetic and game play.

At our table we are looking at replacing the hound with a simple +1 at 6th to Curse Bringer, + 2 at 12th with the abilities to absorb a single magic weapon property, 18th + 3 and absorb all properties of one weapon or add a secondary magical property. (needs testing but that is the general idea)

We also added Charisma to all pact weapon into the Blade Pact.

I disagree with you a lot here.

I don't think Curse Bringer is any issue. Needing Strength for it is fine. Otherwise, you get into Feat shenanigans. Polearm Master with a Glaive off Charisma? Greatweapon Master off Charisma? I do think it shouldn't be limited to merely a Greatsword, you should be able to make it a Maul or Greataxe. But making it require Strength? Not a big deal.

Curse Bringer's real strength is that you can deal another 2d8 PER SPELL LEVEL. So for spending a lv2 slot, you deal 4d8. A Paladin's Smite deals 3d8. While it is Slashing VS Radiant, it's a noticeable difference. Especially when you consider Warlock spell progression. A Paladin can likely Smite more often, since they have more slots. But a Warlock dishing out (assuming 18 Str) at lv5 is dishing out 4d6 + 8 + 12d8 if he spends both spell slots. And if he crits... Let's assume he's hitting the target of Hold Person, so it's all crit damage, ok?

8d6 + 8 + 24d8 magical slashing damage. At level 5. Average of 144 damage, I believe.

Now, you're pretty well spent until the next short rest, but... Wow. I don't think there's any nova around that level that approaches that.

[DracoKnight]

Curse Bringer's real strength is that you can deal another 2d8 PER SPELL LEVEL. So for spending a lv2 slot, you deal 4d8. A Paladin's Smite deals 3d8. While it is Slashing VS Radiant ...

Emphasis, mine.

It's also important to note that Curse Bringer's +2d8 slashing damage per slot level is magical slashing damage, which is arguably better than radiant, if not overly interesting.

[Asmotherion]

Why do people dislike the shadow hound so much? I like the idea of having a pet that will follow people for you undetected & instill them with a sense of dread. It makes the warlock seem like a stalker-killer

People saying it doesn't make sense just don't have an imagination

1) It's out of context. You see a sword. Then a Hound. What links one to the other? No, the Hound's teeth being like swords does not quite cut it.

2) You already have Hex as a spell, which is superior to Hunter's Mark as it deals damage on any kind of hit including spell attacks, instead of only on weapon attack hits. The you have Hexblade's Curse to Stack on it, making your mechanic even better. The Hound basically steals the only thing Hunter's Mark has supperior to the Warlock, aka tracking ability. It steps too much on Ranger's territory as an ability, and breaking game balance for no good reason.

3) What would make sence would be a nice fighting style, limited to Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling and Great Weapon Fighting. Include an invocation with Pact of the Blade and Hexblade Patron pre-requisits that allows to manifest your pact weapon as two copies of itself, both bound to you as normal, for the Two Weapon fighting option.

@OP. I like your Specific Blade Pact Invocation Options a lot, though I would change the Old One to Vicious Mockery, for Psychic Damage (Seems to be more linked to psychic abilities in this edition).

Eldritch Smite as a specific to the Hexblade 6th level ability seems interesting, replacing the Hound. I would however have it work just like Divine Smite instead, as it's already limited to 4/short rest maximum.

[Byke]

I disagree with you a lot here.

I don't think Curse Bringer is any issue. Needing Strength for it is fine. Otherwise, you get into Feat shenanigans. Polearm Master with a Glaive off Charisma? Greatweapon Master off Charisma? I do think it shouldn't be limited to merely a Greatsword, you should be able to make it a Maul or Greataxe. But making it require Strength? Not a big deal.

Limiting it to swords eliminates the PAM shenanigans. GWM is going to be taken anyways to maximize 2h DPS. It working off strength is just unsynergistic, not a huge deal, just a feat tax, which IMO is unneeded. Opening it up to Great Ax and Maul but not Pole-arms is fine as well.

Also a one level dip into Fighter is standard for Bladelocks which pretty much eliminates everything you gain from Hex warrior aside from the Char to weapsons. Maybe Blade pact get Char to 1h weapon vs Hex getting it to 1 and 2 h.


Curse Bringer's real strength is that you can deal another 2d8 PER SPELL LEVEL. So for spending a lv2 slot, you deal 4d8. A Paladin's Smite deals 3d8. While it is Slashing VS Radiant, it's a noticeable difference. Especially when you consider Warlock spell progression. A Paladin can likely Smite more often, since they have more slots. But a Warlock dishing out (assuming 18 Str) at lv5 is dishing out 4d6 + 8 + 12d8 if he spends both spell slots. And if he crits... Let's assume he's hitting the target of Hold Person, so it's all crit damage, ok?

8d6 + 8 + 24d8 magical slashing damage. At level 5. Average of 144 damage, I believe.

Now, you're pretty well spent until the next short rest, but... Wow. I don't think there's any nova around that level that approaches that.

This could be said for any of the Pact weapons....

[ZiddyT]

I'm willing to admit that my perspective may be too clouded in coming from the paladin and paladin multiclass perspective, I've played approximately one paladin or part paladin for every non-paladin character I've played in this edition, though as pointed out by someone in the other thread, those weapon-attacking classes that work on cha gain way more from charisma based melee attacks than the ones who work on wis would gain from wisdom based melee attacks.

I fail to see how. No one's yet to say how exactly a bard will be so overpowered with another +1 or +2 to hit, specifically in melee, specifically with a one-handed weapon with no fighting style and broken feats (pam/gwm/cbe/ss) to abuse it with. It's basically the same as a cleric using shillelagh, which absolutely no one will claim is overpowered, except Bard doesn't get spirit guardians and spiritual weapon by default to make them actually incentivized to stay in melee. It's seriously not even worth a 1-level dip. If you're going to MC and delay all your bardic progression, you're doing it to get Agonizing EB, not ever so slightly better melee attacks.

Paladin at least gets some bonus out of it since they're more competent melee, but even then it's not a whole lot. They are still just as (slightly more) MAD than any other class, only STR is their DEX. Except they need 15 instead of 14. 13 just to MC in the first place, so even a dwarven paladin isn't dumping it, and now they start with +2 to CHA instead of +3. Now their fighting style, extra attack, aura, and improved divine smite are delayed a level so that you can add a point or two to your command save when you could just use one of your attacks to shove prone, or occasionally get a situationally useful smite rider effect that probably would've been better as just 2d8 radiant damage. And you've thrown off progression for the vastly superior sorcadin if you were interested in that, which already progresses so painfully.



Even apart from that, the Curse Bringer issue remains. Dropping cha to attacks completely wouldn't meaningfully change the hexblade, and by closing an enticing trap option might make the subclass overall stronger.

If there's not a one handed equivalent of curse bringer introduced, or if hexblade isn't reorganized some manner to make the hex shifting & some version of the smite damage (even with a lower die or otherwise smaller) outside of curse bringer, a main-classed hexblade who skips cursebringer to take advantage of the cha attacks is actively hurting themselves.

I feel this is more an issue with Curse Bringer than Hex Warrior. You really shouldn't be forced to turn off an entire class feature to use another one. It should just have been a Longsword (especially since it's really getting old that the best melee attackers are always 2h GWM cliches).

[Sception]

It's more the ASIs. A one level dip in hexblade basically buys a paladin 2 ASIs, since they won't need to raise strength beyond what's needed for heavy armor. It's a difference huge enough that every single sword and board paladin that doesn't start at level 20 should absolutely take a level of hexblade, which makes me leery.

I'm similarly leery of every bladelock (including hexblades, so long as the curse bringer issue remains the same) kind of needing to dip fighter (or pick up heavy armor some other way), but there it feels like more a problem with the base class/subclass than with the dip.

Overall, I consider it a smaller issue than the other issues I have (curse bringer, shadow dog being a bit off theme, curse damage should scale with class level, not character level), but I wouldn't seeing the cha substitution pushed back to level three, personally, which I would do by introducing it as an alternate version of curse bringer, as per my suggestions in the other thread.

I think first level hexblade gets enough without it anyway.

[RSP]

As no one else has mentioned it yet:

What's up with the spell selections? No one should use Shield as a 3+ level slot, though its thematic at least. I'm not sure how Cone of Cold fits in to serving a weapon. Destructive Wave is a great spell but again, how does this fit with a Hexblade?

Magic Weapon is thematic but pretty much useless other than for a couple levels before you can the +1 invocation or Elemental Weapon. Granted you could switch it out for EW but it's odd to have a very selective list that includes a spell no one will take past level 4 (and can't take until level 3).

And either of those spells are useless with the Improved Pact Weapon invocation which is needed unless planning on skipping Curse Bringer and the smites.

[Sception]

The spells are a bit meh, yeah. Cone of cold is there for the raven queen connection, though I still don't like it because I don't like that connection to begin with. Raven queen is her own patron.

[RSP]

Right, even going with the RQ as the source of the sentient weapons, she's still not the patron of the Hexblade. I'd probably like to see switching CoC out for Banishing Smite. Not really any other thematic 5th level spells though.

[Zalabim]

Throw that darn using your charisma instead of strength or dex onto the Blade pact this makes it so multiclassing into hexblade is a little less obscene for charisma using classes. While also letting you use charisma for two-handed weapons.

I'll have to say this a lot, but I disagree with this suggestion. Level 3 is too late for the ability. If you want to play a pact of the blade to fight with melee weapons you want to do it from level 1 and you do that by having the stats to fight with a melee weapon from level 1. Getting the ability to use Cha instead at level 3 doesn't work with that. It has to be a level 1 ability, so it has to be attached to a patron, so it should stay on Hexblade or go entirely.

With Hexblade's theme, I think it needs Cha for one-handed (Versatile, I know, but bear with me) melee in order to make the patron's spells and features all usable for the other pact boons.

Second!

Take away the uber-smite ability from the unique blade pact invocations and instead change it and have it replace the level 6 ability, replacing shadow hound and change it's description to this. Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects and the caster expends a WARLOCK spell slot and deals 2d8 points of force damage to the creature. The caster is then unable to cast this spell again until the end of their next turn.
Assuming you meant 2d8 per level of the spell slot, I don't like the shadow hound here either, but this is no good replacement. It's awkward, doesn't mesh with extra attack, and loses too much power against casting a *blade spell and using your spell slot for something more productive.


Prerequisite: The Great Old One patron, Pact of
the Blade feature
You can create a black, lead flail using your Pact
of the Blade feature. The flail’s head is sculpted
to resemble a pair of grasping tentacles. The
weapon has the reach property. When you hit a
creature with it you can cast chill touch on the creature as a bonus action.

Prerequisite: The Hexblade patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a greatsword forged from silver,
with black runes etched into its blade, using your
Pact of the Blade feature. If you reduce a target
cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse to 0 hit points
with this sword, you can immediately change the
target of the curse to a different creature. This
change doesn’t extend the curse’s duration.
When you hit a creature with it you can cast Sword Burst as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Fiend patron, Pact of the Blade
feature
When you create your pact weapon as a mace, it
manifests as an iron mace forged in Dis, the
second of the Nine Hells. When you hit a creature
with it, you can cast Fire Bolt on the creature as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Archfey patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a longbow using your Pact of the
Blade feature. When you draw back its string
and fire, it creates an arrow of white wood,
which vanishes after 1 minute. You have
advantage on attack rolls against lycanthropes
with the bow. When you hit a creature with it,
you can cast Sacred Flame on the creature as a bonus action
Taking these as a bunch, there's two basic issues I take with them. On the one hand, you're taking that smite power and giving a cut down version as a constant effect. On the other hand, half of these have you cast a ranged spell attack on an enemy you just hit with a melee weapon. It's too big of a damage boost and looks dumb to intentionally invoke a spell with disadvantage. The UA's current effects on these (other than the moon bow) mimic Repelling Blast's control effect instead of being just another mandatory damage bump. Work with that idea.


I love the hound, conceptually, but i agree that hexblade isn't the place for it.

I think fixes to the hexblade shouldn't include changes to the base class. As such, putting cha to attack onto the bladelock is kind of a no go. imo, instead make it one of the pact blade invocations. basically, give the hexblade two different unique blades, a greatesword requiring strength to hit but dealing more damage, and a longsword that gets cha to hit and damage instead of strength. maybe even a third option (paired short swords?) for dex based hexblades.

re the smite: making it a spell is awkward. maybe just limit it to once a turn? or just lower the damage to be in line with paladin smite.

I like the idea of subbing out the 6th level feature for something else, saving the shadow hound for a shadowcaster themed patron or pact boon. but im not sure about replacing it with the smite. that takes smiting away from non hexblade bladelocks. instead I would replace it with the curse bringers ability to shift your hex to another target after you kill the current one. imo thats too critical a class feature to restroct to an invocation anyway.

also, the hexblade is too front loaded, even after removing cha attacks. maybe move the expanded crit range to level 6 as well.

and the hex damage should scale with class level, not character level. instead of tying it to proficiency bonus, just start at plus 2 damage, and scale it with each patron feature?

finally, the level 10 ability is too strong, and too obnoxious. maybe instead, turn a single hit from a hexed target into a miss, as a reaction, once per rest?
Since it only works on the hexed target, how does it compare to resistance against all damage of one type (except from magic weapons) that fiend gets at level 10? Obnoxious I'll give you, but at least it only works on your hexed target.

Short answer... the 4e Hexblade got several free Summon abilities as it leveled. The first one was an imp, then the next one was based on your pact. I *think* at least one of them was a Spectral Hound, but I'm not certain.

FWIW, I played a 4e Wellblade (Pact of the White Well) for 3 or so years, some of which were into 5e's infancy. My free Summon was a Mourning Handmaiden, a radiant-using fey/undead thing that was also a protector. I get where the UA was going, but I agree that while the Hound is not for everyone, that can be fluffed to anything so long as the mechanical benefit remains the same.
Thanks for reminding me of the horror that was Essentials. /s

The shadowfell connection in the hexblades description was clearly stapled on after the fact to justify the hound, not the other way around. It too, should be removed. The Raven Queen already is a patron on her own, and curtailing the possible intelligent weapons offering hexblade pacts exclusively to shadow themed ones to justify the level 6 ability just because the designers couldn't think of anything actually sentient-weapon-themed to put there needlessly curtails character themes.
I completely agree with this sentiment, even if that's not how it actually came to be.

The Cha attack has too issues:

too dippable, which is a problem, because multiclassing does exist as an option. You cannot introduce a class feature that either forecloses that option or would be foreclosed by that option being open, especially for a subclass that is still largely dependent on multiclassing to even function, since a single classed hexblade as written requires too many high stats, and thus needs to pick up heavy armor somehow in order to dump at least dex.

Hexblades can't use it, which relates to the 'needs too many stats' issue. Too much of the hexblade's mechanical gimmick is tied up in the hex for Curse Bringer to be considered optional, since it's the only available option to transfer it to a second target after the first dies. Since Curse Bringer is mandatory for main-classed hexblades (in a way that it isn't for, say, paladins just dipping a toe in), and Curse Bringer can only make attacks with strength, that forecloses the option to make your melee attacks based on cha, anyway.
I'm not the first to say so, so I'll just mention that I also don't see these as problems. I have said before that if you're really keen to fight in melee, cha is not a better main attribute than str or dex. Paladin is the only one who can pull it off and gain anything for it, but I'm not sure they break anything.


As no one else has mentioned it yet:

What's up with the spell selections? No one should use Shield as a 3+ level slot, though its thematic at least. I'm not sure how Cone of Cold fits in to serving a weapon. Destructive Wave is a great spell but again, how does this fit with a Hexblade?

Magic Weapon is thematic but pretty much useless other than for a couple levels before you can the +1 invocation or Elemental Weapon. Granted you could switch it out for EW but it's odd to have a very selective list that includes a spell no one will take past level 4 (and can't take until level 3).

And either of those spells are useless with the Improved Pact Weapon invocation which is needed unless planning on skipping Curse Bringer and the smites.
Not all of any patron's spells are good (False life, really?) or useful and many of the warlock's existing spells are only good to have for a short time. Is Shield a worse choice than Mirror Image later on? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think this is the worst offender, but I would include it on the list of offenders.

[Sception]

I'll have to say this a lot, but I disagree with this suggestion. Level 3 is too late for the ability. If you want to play a pact of the blade to fight with melee weapons you want to do it from level 1 and you do that by having the stats to fight with a melee weapon from level 1. Getting the ability to use Cha instead at level 3 doesn't work with that. It has to be a level 1 ability, so it has to be attached to a patron, so it should stay on Hexblade or go entirely.

A hexblade needs enough dex for AC that they can get by with finesse weapons until level 3 anyway, so I don't think this is as much of an issue as you're making out.

[jaappleton]

As no one else has mentioned it yet:

What's up with the spell selections? No one should use Shield as a 3+ level slot, though its thematic at least. I'm not sure how Cone of Cold fits in to serving a weapon. Destructive Wave is a great spell but again, how does this fit with a Hexblade?

Magic Weapon is thematic but pretty much useless other than for a couple levels before you can the +1 invocation or Elemental Weapon. Granted you could switch it out for EW but it's odd to have a very selective list that includes a spell no one will take past level 4 (and can't take until level 3).

And either of those spells are useless with the Improved Pact Weapon invocation which is needed unless planning on skipping Curse Bringer and the smites.

On the subject of the spells, like Cone of Cold and Destructive Wave:

CoC fits because it mentions the Raven Queen, and Shadowfell. Raven Queen has (or had) the domains of Death, Fate, and Winter. So with Winter, I totally see the fit.

Destructive Wave was originally referred to as Destructive Smite. And with the emphasis on the other Smite spells, I see the connection. In my mind, I see the Hexblade slamming his greatsword down against the ground, sending out a shockwave and causing fissures to rise up under his enemies on the battlefield.

[Starnite_iv]

The weapon enhancement spells are for those weird hexblades that do not take the pactblade path.

[Zalabim]

A hexblade needs enough dex for AC that they can get by with finesse weapons until level 3 anyway, so I don't think this is as much of an issue as you're making out.
The Hexblade wouldn't need 16 dexterity just for AC, so they'd be more likely to feel the difference, and any Hexblade that doesn't take Pact of the Blade is going to wonder what they're doing with all these close range and weapon attack benefiting spells and abilities.

[Vogonjeltz]

Now let me get something straight, I REALLY like hexblade. I love the idea of being a spellcaster who makes deals with this powerful artifact for martial power as well magical abilities. Since its rare to get spell casters dipping into martial prowess while martial characters dipping into spell casting is very common. But does anyone else feel like this hexblade is TOO martial? As well as having a weird almost out of place ability like shadow hound?

I was thinking how to fix this and was also wanting to see if you guys had some ideas after looking at mine.

First things first.

Throw that darn using your charisma instead of strength or dex onto the Blade pact this makes it so multiclassing into hexblade is a little less obscene for charisma using classes. While also letting you use charisma for two-handed weapons.

Second!

Take away the uber-smite ability from the unique blade pact invocations and instead change it and have it replace the level 6 ability, replacing shadow hound and change it's description to this. Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: V, M (a weapon)

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects and the caster expends a WARLOCK spell slot and deals 2d8 points of force damage to the creature. The caster is then unable to cast this spell again until the end of their next turn.

This gets rid of that weird shadow hound ability and turns this uber-smite into a powerful melee SPELL that gives the hexblade a LOT of power. However thanks to the warlocks limited spell slots AND the one turn cool down it becomes a lot more balanced.

and finally i would change a handful of invocations!

Prerequisite: The Great Old One patron, Pact of
the Blade feature
You can create a black, lead flail using your Pact
of the Blade feature. The flail’s head is sculpted
to resemble a pair of grasping tentacles. The
weapon has the reach property. When you hit a
creature with it you can cast chill touch on the creature as a bonus action.

Prerequisite: The Hexblade patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a greatsword forged from silver,
with black runes etched into its blade, using your
Pact of the Blade feature. If you reduce a target
cursed by your Hexblade’s Curse to 0 hit points
with this sword, you can immediately change the
target of the curse to a different creature. This
change doesn’t extend the curse’s duration.
When you hit a creature with it you can cast Sword Burst as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Fiend patron, Pact of the Blade
feature
When you create your pact weapon as a mace, it
manifests as an iron mace forged in Dis, the
second of the Nine Hells. When you hit a creature
with it, you can cast Fire Bolt on the creature as a bonus action

Prerequisite: The Archfey patron, Pact of the
Blade feature
You can create a longbow using your Pact of the
Blade feature. When you draw back its string
and fire, it creates an arrow of white wood,
which vanishes after 1 minute. You have
advantage on attack rolls against lycanthropes
with the bow. When you hit a creature with it,
you can cast Sacred Flame on the creature as a bonus action


I know these ideas are probably terrible and horribly balanced but I wanted to try and play with the idea of making the hexblade feel more like a caster that uses a weapon instead of a martial class that just so happens to have a 3 or so spells he can cast after resting. Let me know what you think!

The original Hexblade was more a Fighter (full Base Attack Bonus progression) type with partial casting from 3.5; Shadow Hound was an iconic spell and Curses were the centerpiece of the class.

[Zalabim]

The original Hexblade was more a Fighter (full Base Attack Bonus progression) type with partial casting from 3.5; Shadow Hound was an iconic spell and Curses were the centerpiece of the class.
Having just looked that up, (since I loved the idea of the Hexblade at the time and looked into ways to make the class useful and never heard of this spell) I see that it is indeed unique to Hexblades. A third level spell unique to a 4-spell-levels half-caster with a full-round casting time that did not make it to the Spell Compendium. It honestly looks like complete trash. It may have actually been useful, but it's not the kind of spell I like. I'd say the world forgot this spell for a reason.

[Potato_Priest]

I'll agree that the shadow hound doesn't seem thematic with this patron. Why not just make it an Invocation that any Warlock can take? Give the patron something else.

This is a great suggestion. I think that raven queen warlocks definitely ought to have access to it, and it's about the right power level for an invocation.

[Byke]

The original Hexblade was more a Fighter (full Base Attack Bonus progression) type with partial casting from 3.5; Shadow Hound was an iconic spell and Curses were the centerpiece of the class.

They gave that hound to Shadow Sorcerer :) and replaced it with a bad replica.

[Dr. Cliché]

They gave that hound to Shadow Sorcerer :) and replaced it with a bad replica.

I'll ask again, what if the Hexblade had an ability similar to the Shadow Sorcerer (creating a short-lived dire-wolf thing)?

He could use a spell slot instead of spell points, and could get a bonus based on the level of the spell used (so that the hound scales with level). E.g.:
Slot level: 1-3 (No bonus)
4 - Weapons count as Magic
5+ Add half your proficiency bonus to attack and damage.
(That's just off the top of my head)

[Byke]

I'll ask again, what if the Hexblade had an ability similar to the Shadow Sorcerer (creating a short-lived dire-wolf thing)?

He could use a spell slot instead of spell points, and could get a bonus based on the level of the spell used (so that the hound scales with level). E.g.:
Slot level: 1-3 (No bonus)
4 - Weapons count as Magic
5+ Add half your proficiency bonus to attack and damage.
(That's just off the top of my head)

It could work, but if you use spells the opportunity cost is way to high, summon doggy or Smite for 10d8 (5+)....if it was based on a long rest and leveled with the Hexblade it would be much more synergistic. The bonuses to offset the lost of 10d8 damage would have to be high.

[Dr. Cliché]

It could work, but if you use spells the opportunity cost is way to high, summon doggy or Smite for 10d8 (5+)....if it was based on a long rest and leveled with the Hexblade it would be much more synergistic. The bonuses to offset the lost of 10d8 damage would have to be high.

Hmm. What if the sumonned creature hung around longer? Would that help?

[Sception]

You can live with a 14 attack stat for two levels if you don't want to put a whole 16 in dex, and even apart from attack rolls, 16 dex is still tempting for saves, initiative, and the mastery feat for medium armor.

And frankly, other bladelocks have managed without cha to attack for their entire careers, hexblades can handle it for two levels.

Basically, it would mean starting with a 14 to 16 in a 'real' attack stat, but then you wouldn't be required to raise it after character creation, freeing up ASIs later and allowing the hexblade to have a higher cha sooner than non-hexblade bladelocks can manage, all real and significant benefits.

On the thematic level, I don't think it's unreasonable to say hexblades should have at least basic physical competence in wielding weapons before you get to the supernatural abilities granted by their class - otherwise why would their patron have chosen them? Physically weak and uncoordinated people are not the kinds of servents a living weapon would be looking for to begin with, no?


In the end, I don't think the cha-to-melee-attacks NEEDS to be moved to level three (the way I do think curse-shifting NEEDS to be moved out of an invocation and into a class feature, or the way I think there NEEDS to be a non-2-handed smite option, even if the smite damage is less than curse bringers), but I think there's enough mechanical and thematic justification to say such a change would be reasonable and not overly onerous.

[Steampunkette]

The Hexblade wouldn't need 16 dexterity just for AC, so they'd be more likely to feel the difference, and any Hexblade that doesn't take Pact of the Blade is going to wonder what they're doing with all these close range and weapon attack benefiting spells and abilities.

None of the Hexblade Abilities require Weapon Attack use.

Most fights are gonna be fairly close (Whether in dungeons, forests, cities, or otherwise) so throwing Hexblade's Curse isn't a big deal for an Eldritch Blaster who is already going to be spending his action moving slightly away from any skirmisher enemies closing.

Spells... Ehhhh... I'd never waste a spellslot on any of the Smite spells. Even as a Pact of the Blade Hexblade. I need Hex up and all the Smites require concentration.

[Zalabim]

And frankly, other bladelocks have managed without cha to attack for their entire careers, hexblades can handle it for two levels.
Yes, they have. That's why I think the cha-to-attack should be at level 1 or not at all.


None of the Hexblade Abilities require Weapon Attack use.
Quite true.

Spells... Ehhhh... I'd never waste a spellslot on any of the Smite spells. Even as a Pact of the Blade Hexblade. I need Hex up and all the Smites require concentration.
Fair. Though I wouldn't be trying to keep Hex up either.

This just supports that if cha-to-attack is a problem, it can be left out altogether.