Hexblade Swashbuckler

[QUARE]

Hey GitP, I want to build a Swashbuckling Rogue with a level 1 dip into Hexblade Warlock for the CHA attacks. How could I optimize it? Best race? Spells? Other dips? Feats?

[Nishant]

Off the top of my head I'd say 1 level dip into fighter for second wind and fighting style, maybe variant human? Hex is a staple spell, of course, and the Hexblade curse should help boost the potential there.

[Tauguy628]

If you go warlock 3, you can get darkness + devil's sight, but Tue abovementioned fighter dip is great (fighter 2 would also get you a lot). If you have the was for it, revised ranger 1 is perhaps the best dip in the game for a martial that is already missing their capstone. Stone sorcerer also gets you con AC. So, to rap it up, possible dips past warlock 1:
Fighter 1 or 2 (or higher, but that can stop being a dip).
Revised ranger 1
Stone sorcerer 1
Warlock 3 (devil's sight/darkness)
Edit: two things in forgot.
1: are you planing on sword and board or two weapon fighting? Both could work for this build.
2: on armor, you are probably not wearing light armor (lets you keep you dex lower), so I would recommend stone sorcerer, medium armor, or hill dwarf + start as a fighter + heavy armor

[Mikal]

If going swashbuckler you won't need more than a single level of warlock.
I'd start fighter if you want the TWF fighting style, vhuman if you want the feat to start with.
Make sure EB is one of your cantrips so you have a ranged option. You won't qualify for Agonizing Blast for extra damage but as a swashbuckler that's more for secondary purposes anyway. Flavor them to look like magic throwing daggers to fit the Swashbuckler image.

Start with 1 level of fighter, then 1 of warlock for the cha to hit and damage.

I'd then take two more levels of fighter, go battlemaster for riposte/etc. if you feel you want it, then the rest swashbuckler rogue.

It'll delay ASIs/feats, which is why I recommend the vhuman. Alternatively, can take 1-2 more levels of fighter, 1 for ASI/Feat, or 2 for Second attack, then go Rogue/Swashbuckler.

Ends up Fighter 3-5/Warlock 1/Swashbuckler 16-14

Keep Cha as max, Dex next (Alert+Cha+Dex equals fun Init times), Con third, and ignore the rest.

[DivisibleByZero]

Make sure Booming Blade is one of your cantrips so you have a skirmishing option to really take advantage of your mobile swashbuckling features. Keep a few throwing daggers or a sling or a shortbow or something on hand for the times when you really need a ranged option and skirmishing won't cut it.

Fixed it for you. :smallwink:

[Mikal]

Fixed it for you. :smallwink:

I always forget about Booming Blade cause I'm a GFB fan in general for the CHA stacking, especially if I use Undying Light or Draconic Sorc.

Only issue I see with BB is that you can't take full advantage of TWF attacks, but it's still a solid secondary choice thanks to the Swashbuckler mobility.

Good call though.

So there ya go.
Cantrip 1: EB
Cantrip 2: BB

Ranged and Mobility options. Keep the EB as magic throwing daggers though. Unlimited magic throwing daggers are cool.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'd be much happier with a utility cantrip like minor illusion or prestidigitation or mage hand or something rather than a ranged attack that will hardly ever get used because a) it will simply hardly ever get used because I'm a skirmisher, and b) I can't apply my sneak attack to it.... which I can totally do with a ranged weapon.
Don't take EB as one of your two cantrips on what would primarily be a rogue build. Especially if that rogue build is a swashbuckler, who is a skirmisher by default. It would be a mistake.

[Mikal]

I'd be much happier with a utility cantrip like minor illusion or prestidigitation or mage hand or something rather than a ranged attack that will hardly ever get used because I can't apply my sneak attack.... which I can totally do with a ranged weapon.
Don't take EB as one of your two cantrips on what would primarily be a rogue build. It would be a mistake.

I disagree, especially considering the fact you'll be able to use Charisma for the to hit, whereas you can't do so with the ranged weapons, thus making your attacks more likely to hit.

In addition, you get up to 4 attacks with EB, thus providing you better damage, especially since you'll be using your Sneak Attack more often while in melee, not range.

I mean, if you want to have one attack at 1d4+dex+potential Sneak Attack with dex to hit when dex is secondary verses four attacks at 1d10 force damage with cha to hit with cha as primary, you can, but I think the other way provides you more consistent damage when you're forced into ranged combat.

[DivisibleByZero]

You're a skirmisher. That's what a swashbuckler is. It's baked right into the class.
By taking BB as a cantrip, you are now punishing the enemy for trying to follow your skirmish. You will almost never actually need a ranged attack. It will be extremely rare. For the few times that you may actually need a ranged attack, a regular weapon, just like every other rogue, will work just fine, and can also apply sneak attack.
If you take EB you're wasting a cantrip choice, and you only get two of them.

[Mikal]

You're a skirmisher. That's what a swashbuckler is. It's baked right into the class.
By taking BB as a cantrip, you are now punishing the enemy for trying to follow your skirmish. You will almost never actually need a ranged attack. It will be extremely rare. For the few times that you may actually need a ranged attack, a regular weapon, just like every other rogue, will work just fine, and can also apply sneak attack.
If you take EB you're wasting a cantrip choice, and you only get two of them.

You're right, you are a skirmisher. But in real world scenarios you need to be prepared for all contingencies.

What will you use more often as a skirmisher, ranged attack options when you're caught out of melee or without weapons and unable to fix that?

Or minor illusion that any other arcane spellcaster can also have?

It's about what's more effective, and the EB is a more effective option vs. minor illusion which you won't be using in combat much anyway since, like you said, you're a skirmisher, which means you're mobile and you're always trying to attack effectively.

Edited to Add: Plus you can get a rod of the pact keeper to make the EB even better as an attack option with +1-+3 to hit.

[DivisibleByZero]

What will you use more often as a skirmisher,

A utility cantrip.

[Mikal]

A utility cantrip.

Way to support your argument like I did with mine.
But no, ranged attacks are more likely to be useful than a niche illusion spell anyone else who casts arcane cantrips use while you have the unique EB cantrip which allows you to multi target at range, and attack better than you would using daggers or a bow.

But please, tell me how, over the course of a campaign and dozens, if not hundreds of fights, how minor illusion and a dagger once a round for 1d4+dex damage is better than 1-4 attacks at 1d10 Force, with the ability to add +1-+3 to hit on them for those times you can't melee.

[DivisibleByZero]

Way to support your argument like I did with mine.
But no, ranged attacks are more likely to be useful than a niche illusion spell anyone else who casts arcane cantrips use while you have the unique EB cantrip which allows you to multi target at range, and attack better than you would using daggers or a bow.

But please, tell me how, over the course of a campaign and dozens, if not hundreds of fights, how minor illusion and a dagger once a round for 1d4+dex damage is better than 1-4 attacks at 1d10 Force, with the ability to add +1-+3 to hit on them for those times you can't melee.

I've already supported my argument.
You don't need a ranged cantrip because you will hardly ever need a ranged attack at all.
And it isn't 1-4 attacks for 1d10 vs 1 attack at 1d4+dex.
It's 1-4 attacks for 1d10 (avg 22) vs 1 attack at 1d4+dex+SNEAK ATTACK (which equals your lvl17 22 damage EB with 4d6sa at level 7 rogue - lvl8 with the multi).
If you take EB on this build, you are wasting a cantrip choice.
Feel free to do so, but don't try to convince me that EB is the better choice, because it isn't.

[Mikal]

I've already supported my argument.
You don't need a ranged cantrip because you will hardly ever need a ranged attack at all.
And it isn't 1-4 attacks for 1d10 vs 1 attacks at 1d4+dex.
It's 1-4 attacks for 1d10 (avg 22) vs 1 attacks at 1d4+dex+SNEAK ATTACK (which equals your lvl17 22 damage EB with 4d6sa at level 7 rogue - lvl8 with the multi).
If you take EB on this build, you are wasting a cantrip choice.
Feel free to do so, but don't try to convince me that EB is the better choice, because it isn't.

No, you've made a claim, without evidence, that you will hardly ever need a ranged attack.

I disagree, as there are many ways for you to be kept out of melee ranged by opponents. Flight, distance, different surface levels (i.e. someone on a roof), landmarks or other terrain in the way which you can't make it through.

In addition, you could also be disarmed due to RP or other reasons. So if you have ways to guarantee that the above will never happen, or be extremely rare, I might agree with you. But since this isn't a white room, sorry. You can't make promises like that.

And you also assume you'll be able to use sneak attack at ranged. Swashbucklers ability to Sneak attack without advantage doesn't work since it's only viable within 5 ft of you. So how will you be guaranteeing sneak attack damage in a situation where you're already at a combat disadvantage.

So while you may sometimes get sneak attack on your ranged attack, odds are you won't. So the majority of the time it's 1d4+dex, not 1d4+dex+SA, vs. the 1d10 per EB attack that lands. Which will have a better chance at landing too based on higher Cha plus potential access to Rod of the Pact Keeper.

So again, I ask, how is it better to have a utility cantrip that others can also have that you likely won't use often and a single dagger attack that will hit less often and most of the time do less damage vs. an option that is almost always available, will hit more often and allows up to 4 different attacks vs. a single or multiple targets when it is available, and do more damage reliably than the dagger?

[DivisibleByZero]

Go ahead and take EB if you happen to play this type of build. Knock yourself out.
But when you never use it, and in the rare instances that you do actually use it you realize that just throwing a dagger or shooting a bow would have been better, and when you find a situation where a utility cantrip would have been fantastic (but oops, you don't have one) don't cry to me because I warned you.

[Mikal]

Go ahead and take EB if you happen to play this type of build. Knock yourself out.
But when you never use it, and in the rare instances that you do actually use it you realize that just throwing a dagger or shooting a bow would have been better, and when you find a situation where a utility cantrip would have been fantastic (but oops, you don't have one) don't cry to me because I warned you.

So in other words, you can't actually refute my arguments, only try and use an appeal to consequences logical fallacy as well as attempting to beg the question, without actually providing reasoning into why your claim is better.

Concession accepted.

OP, in the end it's really up to you, but at least from a mechanical perspective, I think I've shown which option is better for you long term as a ranged choice for those times when you'll really need it.

Hopefully you'll have found some good ideas not only from the builds suggested but also the discussion we had.

[MadBear]

I wouldn't take more then a single level of Hexblade (and maybe fighter/ranger for fighting style) if you wanted to really emphasize the swashbuckler part.

With that said, the character really does seem to build itself.

A class with 2pts in charisma would be great (so half-elf seems like a great choice). Then you could put a point in Con and a point in either Dex of Strenght (whichever skills you use more in that campaign)

For cantrips, I'd personally pick up booming blade to take advantage of Fancy Footwork, and a utility cantrip for RP purposes (mage hand's always good).

For spells Armor of Agathy is always good. So is Charm person. You'll already be a great damage dealer, so I don't think Hex is necessary, but if you really want to pile on damage it's a good spell (and the other casters will thank you).

As for feats, I wouldn't pick any up until you maxed Charisma. As for what you grabbed, that'd depend. Dual weapon wielder is a minor defense/offense bump. The other feats are really going to depend on how the campaign is going.

[MThurston]

I would not waste points in Strength. Just not worth it.

Human variant and take war caster. Use a one handed weapon with shield.

I'd start out as a hexblade and go to level 5. This will get you dark vision, switch to improved pact weapon and take thirsting blade for two attacks. Take +2 to cha or medium armour master to get another +1 AC of you can have a +3 Dex mod.

Then go 5 levels into rogue with Swashbuckler at rogue level 3. Take one of the feats you didn't take at level 4 Warlock if possible. If your Dex is not able to have a +3 mod then take a +2 Dex or a feat that will add +1 to get you to a +3 Dex. ( The plan is to get to half plate without being at disadvantage and another +1 to AC)

You will have a great initiative and be able to get sneak attack vs one target.

[Keravath]

I've already supported my argument.
You don't need a ranged cantrip because you will hardly ever need a ranged attack at all.
And it isn't 1-4 attacks for 1d10 vs 1 attack at 1d4+dex.
It's 1-4 attacks for 1d10 (avg 22) vs 1 attack at 1d4+dex+SNEAK ATTACK (which equals your lvl17 22 damage EB with 4d6sa at level 7 rogue - lvl8 with the multi).
If you take EB on this build, you are wasting a cantrip choice.
Feel free to do so, but don't try to convince me that EB is the better choice, because it isn't.

Not that I want to intrude on a wonderful argument ... but from my experience I would have to disagree with your fundamental premise upon which you are basing your cantrip choices.

I have watched lots of strength based tanks (fighter, paladin etc) fumble around for some sort of ranged option when the opponents were not in range. The opponents could be firing down from windows or cliffs in an ambush, the opponents could be flying, the opponents could be on the other side of a ravine.

If you play in a campaign or other games where your opponents are always in melee range then I feel sorry for you in terms of the huge number of encounter situations that your DM is leaving out of the mix.

Anyway, in my experience with 5e (which is mostly Adventurer's League) it is NOT uncommon to run into situations where a character could make use of a good ranged attack EVEN if the focus of the character is melee.

Taking EB along with the first level of Warlock is a reasonable option to get at least some sort of ranged attack. In some cases, I would argue that the benefits of a second warlock level in terms of extra spell/invocations could also be very worthwhile (especially for Devil's Sight on a vHuman so they have at least some ability to see in the dark, which is especially useful for a sneaky rogue).

On the other hand, if the character has a decent dex to start with then they can just rely on a bow for ranged even if the to hit is a bit less. This has the added advantage that sneak attack can be applied if the rogue has advantage or an ally is next to the target. If the character starts with 14 or 16 dex and 16 cha then the bow is a decent ranged fallback for those situations when it is needed (though it does mean carrying a bow and ammunition).

[MThurston]

Not that I want to intrude on a wonderful argument ... but from my experience I would have to disagree with your fundamental premise upon which you are basing your cantrip choices.

I have watched lots of strength based tanks (fighter, paladin etc) fumble around for some sort of ranged option when the opponents were not in range. The opponents could be firing down from windows or cliffs in an ambush, the opponents could be flying, the opponents could be on the other side of a ravine.

If you play in a campaign or other games where your opponents are always in melee range then I feel sorry for you in terms of the huge number of encounter situations that your DM is leaving out of the mix.

Anyway, in my experience with 5e (which is mostly Adventurer's League) it is NOT uncommon to run into situations where a character could make use of a good ranged attack EVEN if the focus of the character is melee.

Taking EB along with the first level of Warlock is a reasonable option to get at least some sort of ranged attack. In some cases, I would argue that the benefits of a second warlock level in terms of extra spell/invocations could also be very worthwhile (especially for Devil's Sight on a vHuman so they have at least some ability to see in the dark, which is especially useful for a sneaky rogue).

On the other hand, if the character has a decent dex to start with then they can just rely on a bow for ranged even if the to hit is a bit less. This has the added advantage that sneak attack can be applied if the rogue has advantage or an ally is next to the target. If the character starts with 14 or 16 dex and 16 cha then the bow is a decent ranged fallback for those situations when it is needed (though it does mean carrying a bow and ammunition).

A fix for this is to get to level 5 Warlock and be able to make your boon weapon ranged. Add crossbow expert with war caster and you can be in the fight shooting heavy crossbows in battle. All while using cha for hitting and damage. The bonus is you can cast in combat with no disadvantages.

[JakOfAllTirades]

A fix for this is to get to level 5 Warlock and be able to make your boon weapon ranged. Add crossbow expert with war caster and you can be in the fight shooting heavy crossbows in battle. All while using cha for hitting and damage. The bonus is you can cast in combat with no disadvantages.

Pretty sure you can get a ranged pact weapon at warlock/3. The only pre-req for the Improved Pact Weapon invocation is having the Pact of the Blade.

[Whit]

Swashbuckler is melee.
No need for two weapon and a wasted duel wield feat. Yiur bread and butter is
1. Hexblade lvl 1. Gets your curse and charisma attack& damage increase crit 19-20. Only for THAT 1 weapon and hex spell 1d6
Or u could go up in lock to lvl 2 fir invocations like improve pact. It only gives yiu +1/+1 and out on range. Or lvl 3 boon. To get magically created theme item
2. Rogue sneak attack. Only on 1 attack. So really you should focus on 1 hit each round and move out. And repeat. As the second attack will not have that extra punch.
Also if u duel wield you will have to go off strength or dex not charisma. Which becomes mad.
3. Yiu want that 1 hit so asi and lucky is important options
4. If yiu want another class to go with it. Paladin vengeance level 3. another curse for advantage attack’s.

[samcifer]

Hey GitP, I want to build a Swashbuckling Rogue with a level 1 dip into Hexblade Warlock for the CHA attacks. How could I optimize it? Best race? Spells? Other dips? Feats?

One thing to be aware of is that the benefits of the Hexblade Curse only work off of your pact weapon. If you only want those for melee attacking, then a 1 level dip is fine. If you also wan to to apply it to ranged attacks, however, you'll have to go to Hexblade 3 and take the pact of the blade, then take the improved pact weapon ee to make a bow or crossbow your pact weapon. If that's the case, it's only 1 weapon, so you'll be fixed in either melee or fighting. If you're okay with it only applying to melee, then take a bow for your ranged option so you can still do sneak attack damage without the added damage from the curse. Do be aware that you'll need both high DEX and high CHA as you'll have two different attack stats if you go this route as you'll need DEX for ranged and CHA for melee.

If you only mean the Hex spell this won't be an issue. Just focus on high dex for accuracy with both ranged and melee attacking, which is easier to manage and requires only a single attribute to max out. Hex only needs 1 level of warlock and 13 CHA.

[rbstr]

I've got more of a problem with the premise of the build...what's really the point of the Hexblade/charisma attack anyway? The initiative bonus and Panache are good, but not like "I must be maxed charisma ASAP" good. It's not hard to have good dex and cha. Particularly with Rogues getting an extra ASI. And if Panache is that important you should take expertise in persuasion...which'll go a lot further than the +1 you're buying with SAD. And you don't get to TWF with CHA on both...and TWF is a good thing to do on this character.

I get the Hexblade dip for other reasons, the curse is good (better with multi-attack though...), Hex/shield, Shield proficiency, Booming Blade. All find without cha attacking (or without cha at all, for that matter).

[rbstr]

One thing to be aware of is that the benefits of the Hexblade Curse only work off of your pact weapon.

What? No. The curse works on all of your damage rolls and attack rolls against the cursed target. Are you talking about "Hex Warrior" instead of "Hexblade's Curse"?

[samcifer]

What? No. The curse works on all of your damage rolls and attack rolls against the cursed target. Are you talking about "Hex Warrior" instead of "Hexblade's Curse"?

Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks for that as I had assumed it had more restrictions than I thought it does. The part about CHA only applying to a single weapon is still tho.

[MThurston]

Pretty sure you can get a ranged pact weapon at warlock/3. The only pre-req for the Improved Pact Weapon invocation is having the Pact of the Blade.

At level three you can only make melee weapons. You would need a magical crossbow to make it your boon weapon.

But you don't take crossbow expert for shooting crossbows.

It allows you to make any range attack next to an enemy and not get disadvantage on your attack roll.

So you are swinging it out with some knights and a wizard is about to fall. You can throw, fire or cast a spell at the wizard without rolling two dice to attack and taking the lowest.

[samcifer]

At level three you can only make melee weapons. You would need a magical crossbow to make it your boon weapon.

But you don't take crossbow expert for shooting crossbows.

It allows you to make any range attack next to an enemy and not get disadvantage on your attack roll.

So you are swinging it out with some knights and a wizard is about to fall. You can throw, fire or cast a spell at the wizard without rolling two dice to attack and taking the lowest.

Crossbow expert also allows for using a crossbow with the extra attack feature as it eliminates the loading property that requires a bonus action to reload, making a second attack with it impossible without the feat.

[rbstr]

At level three you can only make melee weapons. You would need a magical crossbow to make it your boon weapon.


Improved Pact Weapon will let you make a light or heavy crossbow. That is available at level 3.

[MThurston]

Improved Pact Weapon will let you make a light or heavy crossbow. That is available at level 3.

I had thought IPW was a 5th level invocation.

But it changed nothing why you take the feat. It's for casting spells without being at a disadvantage.

[MThurston]

Crossbow expert also allows for using a crossbow with the extra attack feature as it eliminates the loading property that requires a bonus action to reload, making a second attack with it impossible without the feat.

Yes, I know that, but the feat is for being able to cast spells without being at a disadvantage.

[CTurbo]

I keep seeing Hexblade/Swashbuckler threads, but I'm failing to see ANY benefit for choosing to use Cha for attacks instead of Dex. As I've said before, If I were to make a Hexblade/Swash, I'd still prioritize Dex unless somebody can convince me otherwise.

Initiative is Dex + Cha so it doesn't matter if you have 14 Dex, 20 Cha or 20 Dex, 14 Cha.

14 Dex + Breastplate = 16 AC
20 Dex + Studded Leather = 17 AC

The only advantage I can see for Cha is if you're building this character to be more social oriented, but for a Rogue, I'd rather have the Dex skills.

Sure EB with AB benefits more from high Cha but that doesn't even fit this character concept. I wouldn't even take EB.

Swashbucklers are set up to dual wield but you can't use Cha for both weapons right? Dex is clearly superior for getting twice as many shots at sneak damage.

What am I missing?

[Gydian]

First I love Eldritch Blast. I recently fell back in love with Warlock and have become the party sniper. Im having a lot of fun with it.
In the part we have a dwarf monk who is only melee. He has problems when the enemy is not in punching distance. So there have been times when he uses turns dashing or climbing.

If you are a melee person than leave the range to the ranged people.
EB is 1d10 if you don't have the invocation.
heavy crossbow is 1d10+dex if you don't have proficiency but the chance to hit is down.

Carry a loaded crossbow around for that just in case moment.

[Snowbluff]

I keep seeing Hexblade/Swashbuckler threads, but I'm failing to see ANY benefit for choosing to use Cha for attacks instead of Dex. As I've said before, If I were to make a Hexblade/Swash, I'd still prioritize Dex unless somebody can convince me otherwise.

Initiative is Dex + Cha so it doesn't matter if you have 14 Dex, 20 Cha or 20 Dex, 14 Cha.

14 Dex + Breastplate = 16 AC
20 Dex + Studded Leather = 17 AC

The only advantage I can see for Cha is if you're building this character to be more social oriented, but for a Rogue, I'd rather have the Dex skills.

Sure EB with AB benefits more from high Cha but that doesn't even fit this character concept. I wouldn't even take EB.

Swashbucklers are set up to dual wield but you can't use Cha for both weapons right? Dex is clearly superior for getting twice as many shots at sneak damage.

What am I missing?

I wouldn't even go with Swashbuckler with the combination in the first place. Arcane Trickster is a much better option, as it gives some slots and magic ambush. Which, in that case cha might be better, as you can land save spells at disadvantage.

So I'm 50/50 on rogue warlock.

[rbstr]

I keep seeing Hexblade/Swashbuckler threads, but I'm failing to see ANY benefit for choosing to use Cha for attacks instead of Dex. As I've said before, If I were to make a Hexblade/Swash, I'd still prioritize Dex unless somebody can convince me otherwise.

What am I missing?

I've got the same questions.
Like Hexblade makes a decent enough 1-level dip. But the Charisma to attacks just isn't doing anything at that level to want to build around it.

I could see it in pretty substantial rogue/ blade warlock MCs where you're grabbing Extra Attack. Even going as far as level 12 for lifedrinker. You've got more reason to pump CHA then.

[MThurston]

The reason to go with Cha is because a Dex over 16 is a waste. You can use Medium Armour so with Medium Armor Master you can get your AC to 20+.

Half Plate is 15 +2 for shield and +3 for Dex.

This is with out any magical items or feats used to improve AC.

You also get to add Cha mod to your init.

[samcifer]

The reason to go with Cha is because a Dex over 16 is a waste. You can use Medium Armour so with Medium Armor Master you can get your AC to 20+.

Half Plate is 15 +2 for shield and +3 for Dex.

This is with out any magical items or feats used to improve AC.

You also get to add Cha mod to your init.

This thread inspired me to make up a swashbuckler/draconic Bloodline sorc. Decent AC and several spell slots. I started him at lv. 10 going 5 swash / 5 drag sorc. Started rogue and took Resilient Con and Warcaster for my feats.

[MThurston]

This thread inspired me to make up a swashbuckler/draconic Bloodline sorc. Decent AC and several spell slots. I started him at lv. 10 going 5 swash / 5 drag sorc. Started rogue and took Resilient Con and Warcaster for my feats.

This doesn't allow you medium armor.

[BaconAwesome]

Swashbucklers are set up to dual wield but you can't use Cha for both weapons right?

Well, technically if you take at least 3 warlock levels, you can go hex bladelock and designate one weapon as your hex warrior weapon and one as your pact weapon.

[samcifer]

This doesn't allow you medium armor.

No but Draconic Bloodline gives built-in, always active Mage Armor, so that'd be better than studded leather armor (assuming no magic armor ever appears and in my group, it never has). At lv. 11 Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade would get better damage and with an up-cast Shadow Blade for my weapon, I could do pretty good damage in a turn, esp. if I quicken BB or GFB for two attacks during a single turn.

[MThurston]

Well, technically if you take at least 3 warlock levels, you can go hex bladelock and designate one weapon as your hex warrior weapon and one as your pact weapon.

You will need AC so using two weapons is dangerous.

[CTurbo]

The reason to go with Cha is because a Dex over 16 is a waste. You can use Medium Armour so with Medium Armor Master you can get your AC to 20+.

Half Plate is 15 +2 for shield and +3 for Dex.

This is with out any magical items or feats used to improve AC.

You also get to add Cha mod to your init.


Dex over 16 is no more of a waste than Cha over 16

Initiative is Dex PLUS Cha so going Cha over Dex here makes absolutely no difference.

So going Cha over Dex gets you a small AC boost IF you take a feat specifically to get it?


This thread inspired me to make up a swashbuckler/draconic Bloodline sorc. Decent AC and several spell slots. I started him at lv. 10 going 5 swash / 5 drag sorc. Started rogue and took Resilient Con and Warcaster for my feats.

YES! I made a Tabaxi Swashbuckler with a single level Draconic Sorcerer dip for the 13+Dex AC and Booming Blade and that character has been fantastic! I recommend this to anyone.


You will need AC so using two weapons is dangerous.

The Swashbuckler can attack with two weapons and simply walk away after that. No need for extra AC over only using one weapon.

[samcifer]

YES! I made a Tabaxi Swashbuckler with a single level Draconic Sorcerer dip for the 13+Dex AC and Booming Blade and that character has been fantastic! I recommend this to anyone.

Yeah, the premise is to summon a Shadow Blade, then attack with BB or GFW, then quicken it if the first attack misses. Mirror Image for defense without concentrating, Fireball for the fun of it in case there's a lot of enemies to clear out, Disguise Self for infiltration or an effective getaway, Shield to protect against large hits, and either Misty Step or Spider Climb (SC would be better in enclosed places and urban settings, obviously, making it more useful overall for more than a single instance of usage of MS). Minor Illusion and Mage Hand would be my other cantrips besides GFB and BB.

Sadly Haste would compete with SB, so I'd have to pass on it. :(

But I want to make sure I understand how the damage would play out...

If I up-cast Shadow Blade to lv. 3, that'd be 3d8. So would the damage just be 3d8 (SB) + 1d8 (BB or GFB) + 3d6, or would I also add in DEX for and exta 5 dmg.? Would there be any more weapon dmg., or would it just be the 2d8 and no other rolls, like if I made it look like a dagger, it would not add another 1d4 to the dmg, right, just the 3d8?

[MThurston]

Dex over 16 is no more of a waste than Cha over 16

Initiative is Dex PLUS Cha so going Cha over Dex here makes absolutely no difference.

So going Cha over Dex gets you a small AC boost IF you take a feat specifically to get it?

The Swashbuckler can attack with two weapons and simply walk away after that. No need for extra AC over only using one weapon.

You use Cha for Spell Casting and to hit with your weapon. So it holds way more value than Dex.

Any rogue of 2nd level can hit and walk away. It doesn't stop your opponent from engaging you after you move or stop people from using range attacks on him.

A +2 shield adds 4 to your A.C. and with only one of your weapons getting your Cha mod it's the +4 A.C. that will keep you from being hit.

Plus you want your Cursed target to be swinging on you at level 10 warlock.

[CTurbo]

You use Cha for Spell Casting and to hit with your weapon. So it holds way more value than Dex.

Yes Cha for spellcasting. That's the only benefit.


Any rogue of 2nd level can hit and walk away. It doesn't stop your opponent from engaging you after you move or stop people from using range attacks on him.

Swashbuckler's can walk away easier since they don't have to disengage.


A +2 shield adds 4 to your A.C. and with only one of your weapons getting your Cha mod it's the +4 A.C. that will keep you from being hit.

This is irrelevant as using a shield has absolutely nothing to do with choosing to attack with Cha.


Plus you want your Cursed target to be swinging on you at level 10 warlock.

Also irrelevant as the Hexblade curse has nothing to do with choosing to attack with Cha.

[MThurston]

Someone has eaten sour grapes.

Cha is very important for warlocks. It does damage and to hit for Spells. With a hexblade it is the most important stat.

Not seeing the above is just being stubborn.

As for fighting with your Swashbuckler/hexblade. You are going to be in the thick of battle. So staying in battle is wear you want to be. Doesn't make you a target for ranged users.

If you think standing out in the open with two weapons makes you safe then that is very silly. Being hit with arrows, bolts and spells will drop you quick with a low AC.

If you take a rapier and a dagger into combat, you will be hitting with one of them with Dex. Which means that you will be adding to dex vice a feat or into Cha (your most important stat). Waste of time.

Also as a Swashbuckler you can't have opportunity attacks against the target of your atrack. To disengage it uses a bonus action that takes away spell use and the dagger attack in the off hand.

So in your example of being mobile, having the shield is a no brainer. It doesn't use the bonus action.

And A.C. is much more useful than a second attack that uses a bonus action, where you cast your spells.

It is cool that you can zoom in and out of combat but the hexblade strength at level 10 is the d6 roll to not be hit by your Cursed target.

You are correct that it's a wash for init with taking Dex/Cha but if you are truly playing a Swashbuckler then those Cha based skills are an added bonus and having a 20 Cha does more for you than a 20 dex.

[MThurston]

I wanted to come back and give some perspective.

I start out as a rogue and go Swashbuckler.

I want my Dex high. If I have foresight into going hexblade then I may need to rethink starting out as a rogue.

I agree with you starting this way and then saying "wait, maybe I should go hexblade?"

But with some foresight it is best to start out as a hexblade and then move to rogue later.

As a rogue you have some ways of using your bonus action. One is to use Cunning action and the other is to make an off hand attack. You are not able to use a shield so having a light weapon in the off hand is the best option.

But when hexblade comes around you have a few options. Keep that hand open for spell casting until you get war caster. Use a shield to boost your A.C. or keep a light weapon there.

Now let's look at what a hexblade should be doing with spells. They should be cursing, hexing, hellish rebuke and any other bonus action spell. Moving hex is a bonus action use.

So with the amount of bonus action to disengage, cast spells or atrack with an off hand; what makes the best option?

Having a shield to me is the best actions. Why do you ask? Because Cunning action and casting spells with a bonus A.C. is more important than a 1d4 +0 damage with a light weapon. As for sneak attack damage? You should have 2 Attacks with a high cha to get that for you. Relying on an off hand attack for sneak attack doesn't outweigh a +2 or greater A.C. bonus.

[CTurbo]

I can understand if you're a Hexblade with a small Rogue dip but this guy is going to be a Swashbuckler with a single level Hexblade dip. For this I don't see any advantage in prioritizing Cha over Dex. Dex will be more useful to him throughout his career through Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of hand, etc... He can still hold a shield and curse enemies while maxing Dex instead of Cha.


This isn't like a Hexblade/Paladin who can become SAD by dumping Str thanks to Hexblade. A Rogue just doesn't benefit in the same way.

[MThurston]

I can understand if you're a Hexblade with a small Rogue dip but this guy is going to be a Swashbuckler with a single level Hexblade dip. For this I don't see any advantage in prioritizing Cha over Dex. Dex will be more useful to him throughout his career through Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of hand, etc... He can still hold a shield and curse enemies while maxing Dex instead of Cha.


This isn't like a Hexblade/Paladin who can become SAD by dumping Str thanks to Hexblade. A Rogue just doesn't benefit in the same way.

Not sure why you would waste a Level in Hexblade this way. Fighter with Second wind and a fighting style would be better.

Dueling , Defense or Two weapon fighting would be better than a Level of hexblade.

And without taking warcaster feat you can't cast spells that require S.