How to hide ghouls?

[NecroDancer]

So my DM said we will be ending CoS at 11th level so I'm planning to pick up create undead then. However in our group is a zealous paladin of Lathander who hates undead and tries to kill them whenever possible.

Naturally this means I need to create some ghouls at the first opportunity but I'm trying to figure out how I can hide them from the paladin once I make them.

My current idea is to stick them in the light cleric's bag of holding (the light cleric is fine with undead for reasons that would take too long to explain) and leave the bag open to allow air to flow into the bag (for some reason ghouls need to breath).

Note: Me and the paladin are good friends and our rivalry is purely sitcom in nature.

[Kileonhardt]

Just explain to him that they are necessary fodder in your eventual fight and that he's welcome to kill any that survive later. Even the most zealous of Paladin should know that as long as it's for vanquishing the BBEG then the lesser evil can be put on hold.

[JellyPooga]

Umm...if the Paladin is going to try and kill them as son as he sets eyes on them, how exactly do you plan on using them? As soon as you release them to help you in a fight, your Paladin buddy's going to slaughter them, right?

[Drackolus]

Honestly, I'd just pick another spell. Not worth the complications. Besides, using undead against Strahd just sounds like you're asking for trouble.
Seeming would work, but it lasts 8 hours, and you'd still have to find a way to explain to someone why you suddenly have a handful of different-looking creatures.
Just take Contingency and Chain Lightning or Disintegrate and be done with it.

[Demonslayer666]

Strike up a deal with the paladin.

Donate to the temple, promise to only use them for good, promise to not parade them through town, etc.

[N810]

How high are the paladins investigative and perception skills ?
if they are terrible just use disguises on your undead and claim
they are hirelings.

[NecroDancer]

How high are the paladins investigative and perception skills ?
if they are terrible just use disguises on your undead and claim
they are hirelings.

"So what if my hirelings are mute/deaf I'm an equal oppertunity employer"

This was actually one of my first idea's on how to hide them but I'd also need to explain why my hirelings attack with their hands and mouths (I don't think saying that they are "monks" will work).

[LordVonDerp]

Explain to the player that he doesn't get to interfere with your character.

[Naanomi]

Disguise kits, a good Deception check, and a stupid Paladin (they dumped INT right?) can get you far, but the charade will only last so long; so I wouldn't plan on it as a long-term strategy

[Drackolus]

It sort of runs into the same problem as any lie in the party: it's just hard to keep up a lie around someone who's basically within earshot 24/7. Eventually, it will become obvious that you have undead with you.
Not to mention that paladins can detect the undead several times a day, for free. You can't bluff that.

[N810]

hmm... do you know the illusion spell that lets you throw your voice ?
(for RPing your ghouls voices)

oh and make an illusion of a ghost every time he cast detect undead,
and convince him that he is hunted. :P

[Drackolus]

hmm... do you know the illusion spell that lets you throw your voice ?

Minor illusion can do it to an extent. I think that's the only one.

[Naanomi]

It sort of runs into the same problem as any lie in the party: it's just hard to keep up a lie around someone who's basically within earshot 24/7. Eventually, it will become obvious that you have undead with you.
Not to mention that paladins can detect the undead several times a day, for free. You can't bluff that.
It isn't *impossible* to maintain a lie in that way; but it is challenging... and undead are harder to hide than many secrets. I had a Binder in 5e that claimed to be a shaman and did my binding in private spaces where I 'communed with the spirits'... and kept my body under heavy ceremonial robes and masks at all times to avoid showing the physical signs.

[Squiddish]

Explain to the player that he doesn't get to interfere with your character.
That ship sailed when NecroDancer schemed to kill me, and then again when he accidentally caused a zombie apocalypse.

Disguise kits, a good Deception check, and a stupid Paladin (they dumped INT right?) can get you far, but the charade will only last so long; so I wouldn't plan on it as a long-term strategy
I didn't. Average int.

How high are the paladins investigative and perception skills ?
if they are terrible just use disguises on your undead and claim
they are hirelings.
I'd notice if they started to run whenever someone in the party turned undead, or that I'd see them whenever I used detect evil.

hmm... do you know the illusion spell that lets you throw your voice ?
(for RPing your ghouls voices)

oh and make an illusion of a ghost every time he cast detect undead,
and convince him that he is hunted. :P

It isn't a boolean, "undead nearby?" thing, it tells me the locations.

[N810]

That ship sailed when NecroDancer schemed to kill me, and then again when he accidentally caused a zombie apocalypse.

I didn't. Average int.

I'd notice if they started to run whenever someone in the party turned undead, or that I'd see them whenever I used detect evil.


It isn't a boolean, "undead nearby?" thing, it tells me the locations.

OK... then ghost illusion behind each ghoul....?

[iceman10058]

Keep in mind that to him, summoning and using undead is a worse sin/crime than being undead so you may not live long.

[JackPhoenix]

OK... then ghost illusion behind each ghoul....?

*Paladin uses Divine Sense*
Undead detected!
*Wizard (or whatever) wastes his spell slot on Silent Image, casting with both V, S and M component*
Suddenly, ghost appear behind one of the "hirelings" standing in the location of some undead ping to Divine Sense! The others still ping as undead and there are no ghosts behind them. Also, the undead's location still registers as in front of the "ghost"
*Nobody suspects anything*

Yeah, I don't think that would work that great...

[Naanomi]

"Oh those guys? They are possessed by ghosts. They are working for me while I try to use my necromantic prowess to drive the spirits away. Don't worry, the ghosts are harmless, but they may make them act weird so... don't point it out too much, its embarrassing' :smallbiggrin:

[Kileonhardt]

Explain to the player that he doesn't get to interfere with your character.

This is actually why I despise most Cleric and Paladin despite liking the classes. Lots of players like playing them as really holy people who eradicate all undead which gets in the way of some very nice spells and a whole Wizard tradition.

Though saying someone can't interfere with your character creating undead is the same as interfering with their character killing all undead.

[N810]

ok.... lets try something else then....

Convince he paladin that these poor people have
been cursed with a powerful spell and/or item that makes them appear undead even to magic.

[NecroDancer]

These are all great ideas! (I particularly like the "ghost" idea). I get the feeling that the spell suggestion (one of my current favorite spells in the game) can also help me out. I also know the darkness spell so worst case I can cast it on the ghouls as a last ditch effort.

Also I get the feeling that the Paladin will tolerant the ghouls more if they help serve as "trap detectors" (the cleric and rogue certainly will). Given the nature of most of the fights in CoS I'm pretty sure it would be a miracle for the ghouls to survive an encounter

[Asmotherion]

Always the Paladin Joykiller Dilhema... -_-

Explain to them you're on the same side, and they will give you more power to venquish more evil on the long term... Even promiss him you'll help him destroy them if anything goes wrong. For a Paladin of Vengence this should be a good enough explaination. A Palading of Devotion giving him an explaination as this being the full extend of your powers, and it would be hindering towards your mission and duty to use less than your full power, as well as a promess your will use your wicked power only for good acts can make them turn a blind eye. A Paladin of the Ancients may be the most difficult to turn around...

Now, if your campain has a comical tone, you can use proficiency in the disguise kit to make the Ghouls appear alive, and even mummify them internally to prevent rotting. Ghouls can also talk, and with the right orders, you can make them act as a group of friendly followers.


Keep in mind that to him, summoning and using undead is a worse sin/crime than being undead so you may not live long.


We are talking about an 11+ level Wizard here... if someone is in trouble, it's the Paladin, not the other way around. He has to find a legimate RP reason not to attack the Wizard, or die heroicly in doing so... Access to Mirror Image, Blink, Blur, Major Invisibility can make sure they never get hir, wile Blasting AoEs can take care of the rest slowly but stedyly. Just sayi'n.

[JackPhoenix]

You want to create undead... in Ravenloft. And you think it is a good idea with only the paladin standing in your way. Go for it... Surely there's NO way it will go wrong and screw your whole party over...

[NecroDancer]

We are talking about an 11+ level Wizard here... if someone is in trouble, it's the Paladin, not the other way around. He has to find a legimate RP reason not to attack the Wizard, or die heroicly in doing so... Access to Mirror Image, Blink, Blur, Major Invisibility can make sure they never get hir, wile Blasting AoEs can take care of the rest slowly but stedyly. Just sayi'n.

Well I'm actually a warlock (which might be better becuase I have no idea how to play a wizard).

[Squiddish]

ok.... lets try something else then....

Convince he paladin that these poor people have
been cursed with a powerful spell and/or item that makes them appear undead even to magic.
That does not explain why they are affected by turn undead.

Always the Paladin Joykiller Dilhema... -_-

Explain to them you're on the same side, and they will give you more power to venquish more evil on the long term... Even promiss him you'll help him destroy them if anything goes wrong. For a Paladin of Vengence this should be a good enough explaination. A Palading of Devotion giving him an explaination as this being the full extend of your powers, and it would be hindering towards your mission and duty to use less than your full power, as well as a promess your will use your wicked power only for good acts can make them turn a blind eye. A Paladin of the Ancients may be the most difficult to turn around...

We are talking about an 11+ level Wizard here... if someone is in trouble, it's the Paladin, not the other way around. He has to find a legimate RP reason not to attack the Wizard, or die heroicly in doing so... Access to Mirror Image, Blink, Blur, Major Invisibility can make sure they never get hir, wile Blasting AoEs can take care of the rest slowly but stedyly. Just sayi'n.

1. This is reasonable caution at this point, he already nearly started one zombie apocalypse.
2. Not going to work. I am a paladin of Lathander. Undead are a big no-no. Also, Necrodancer's character is a sociopath, so I'm not exactly going to listen to what he has to say on the subject of morality.
3. He is a warlock, not a wizard. He has died twice and been on the brink of death three more times. The first time he died heroically helping us take on an encounter far above our level, and the second he was killed by direwolves. His character is built such that if he is engaged in melee, he will die. He might ameliorate this a bit by 11th level, but not much. I can burn some slots and a channel divinity to deal ~62 damage in one turn, or I can save those slots and instead dispel his illusions and attempts to escape, depleting all but one of his spell slots, which I can counter in other ways.

However, I would probably not kill him since it is one of my character's personal goals to redeem him.

[Sigreid]

Make them from his most beloved family members so he's conflicted about striking them. Especially good if you can use his daughter or little sister.

[JackPhoenix]

Make them from his most beloved family members so he's conflicted about striking them. Especially good if you can use his daughter or little sister.

That sounds like surefire way to make him much less conflicted about striking the necromancer.