Building a sneaky mage in Pathfinder

[SilverLeaf167]

How would one best build a "sneaky mage" sort of character in Pathfinder, with no 3.5 material available?

Perhaps "magey sneak" would be more appropriate: a nimble, versatile skill-monkey who mainly fights with weapons but supplements (and yes, occasionally obviates) his skills with utility spells and buffs. Basically a skill-monkey gish. Int-based casting preferred but not mandatory. And yes, I realize I may be spreading myself a bit thin, but I don't particularly mind and the group's not that high-op. I'd much rather have a fun jack-of-all-trades character than overshadow my less-optimized party members.

I understand that with PF's flexible class skill system, I could just dip Rogue and go straight Wizard (or something) while keeping a few skills maxed and picking the right spells, but while multiclassing is fine, I'd much rather do something that combines these elements a bit better.


Basically, if this were 3.5, I'd be building an Unseen Seer. What's the closest equivalent in PF?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I had a Tiefling witch with a cat familiar and a trait that gave stealth as a class skill, usually the best modifier in the party before I met rogues that had Hellcat Stealth and shadowdancers (it was organized play). You could always go Eldritch Scoundrel rogue and pick up some of the same options. Or a mesmerist.

[EldritchWeaver]

Empericist Investigator has alchemy based-casting, but changes a few rogue skills to work with Int, which has might be interesting to you. Otherwise leave the archetype. For hiding, having invisibility is nice, but usually limited in use. An alternative is to take Hellcat Stealth, allowing you to hide even if observed, as well a minor cloak of displacement to provide cover. That way you can always attempt to hide. Just optimize Stealth, too.

[Serafina]

The Eldritch Scoundrel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo-rogue-archetypes/eldritch-scoundrel-rogue/) Rogue Archetype is a thing.
You get Wizard-spells with 2/3rd progression, out of a spellbook. You only get 4 skill ranks per levle, but your Intelligence-focus makes up for most of that. You only get half sneak attack, but that's still nice.

If you want to Mage it up, you can go for Magus Variant Multiclass and grab arcana that either turns your attacks into touch-attacks, or adds your Intelligence to hit. This'll make it much easier to have high Intelligence, thus more spells and skills, while still being a fully capable combatant.

If you want to be super-tricky, you can go for that, take the Ki Pool Rogue Talent, take the Ki Arcana Magus Arcana, and then select the Ninja tricks you want and have a ton of uses for them. You can even make very good use of Trick this way, since you'll have Ki to spare for it - so basically it's spontaneous access to any Ninja trick, plus spells, plus some sneak attack.

[Geddy2112]

Being small helps with the stealth, although less damage with weapons. A halfling bard will have gish/buff casting(you can always act or dance for a silent performance) and the dex/cha boost are very useful.

Skill focus stealth, hellcat stealth, and dampen presence can make any build stealthy.

I also second investigator or even an alchemist with a trait to get stealth as a class skill.

[Sayt]

Honestly, it sounds like you want the Eldritch Scoundrel rogue archetype. It trads away half of its skill ranks, SA dice, and talents in exchange for wizard-list spellcasting based on the warpriest/magus' 6th level spell progression.

Alternatively, Rogue 1/Wizard 3/sleepless detective 1/Arcane trickster 10 is the traditional sneaky rogue build.

[Peat]

My initial thought for sneaky Mage had been Sorcerer with the Shadow bloodline because who doesn't love Hide in Plain Sight, but I guess that doesn't fit. Although if you have enough feats spare, going VMC Sorcerer to get it mightn't be a bad plan.

Couple of other options that fit what you actually want would be an Archaeologist Bard and, if you don't mind Divine Casting/Having Wis as a casting stat, the Inquisitor.

[SilverLeaf167]

A lot of votes for Eldritch Scoundrel. It does seem like a pretty elegant solution! I'd completely missed that it even existed, because the SRD didn't include it on the same table as all the other archetypes.


Alternatively, Rogue 1/Wizard 3/sleepless detective 1/Arcane trickster 10 is the traditional sneaky rogue build.

Is there a typo, or are you doing something special to enter Sleepless Detective a level early? It requires 5 ranks in a bunch of skills.

[Sayt]

Whoops, extra level of wizard in there, sorry!

[SilverLeaf167]

After some deliberation, I did a rough comparison of two builds and their basic numbers. They're at level 12 because I just happen to like it as a point of reference and this character is pretty much theoretical at this point.

Unchained Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel) 12
BAB: +9/+4
Saves: +4/+8/+4
HP (from HD only): ~58
Skill Points (at Int 18): 96
Spells/day: 5/5/5/4/3 (total of 39 levels)

Unchained Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Sleepless Detective 1/Arcane Trickster 6
BAB: +5
Saves: +2/+6/+7
HP (from HD only): ~44
Skill Points (at Int 18): 92
Spells/day: 4/4/4/3/3/2 (total of 43 levels)

There's a lot more factors obviously, including class features and archetypes and such, but those are pretty hard to summarize in a comparison like this.

In terms of sheer power, I know that the latter would probably win thanks to 5th-level spells alone (and more to come), but literally having less-than-half BAB and being "messier" overall really hurts it in my eyes, especially given the newish DM's understandable distaste for complicated builds. Besides, the group I'm designing this for (as a backup character) already has a full Wizard, so I'd rather not compete with them too directly. I can handle the utility and leave them more slots free for battlefield control.

So it seems like the simplest solution (Eldritch Scoundrel) really is the best for me in this case. Thanks for pointing it out!

[EldritchWeaver]

In terms of sheer power, I know that the latter would probably win thanks to 5th-level spells alone (and more to come), but literally having less-than-half BAB and being "messier" overall really hurts it in my eyes, especially given the newish DM's understandable distaste for complicated builds.

That's what the fractional BAB and saves rules from Unchained are for. They ensure that the numbers remain in the same area as for single-classed characters.

[Xethik]

After some deliberation, I did a rough comparison of two builds and their basic numbers. They're at level 12 because I just happen to like it as a point of reference and this character is pretty much theoretical at this point.

Unchained Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel) 12
BAB: +9/+4
Saves: +4/+8/+4
HP (from HD only): ~58
Skill Points (at Int 18): 96
Spells/day: 5/5/5/4/3 (total of 39 levels)

Unchained Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Sleepless Detective 1/Arcane Trickster 6
BAB: +5
Saves: +2/+6/+7
HP (from HD only): ~44
Skill Points (at Int 18): 92
Spells/day: 4/4/4/3/3/2 (total of 43 levels)

There's a lot more factors obviously, including class features and archetypes and such, but those are pretty hard to summarize in a comparison like this.

In terms of sheer power, I know that the latter would probably win thanks to 5th-level spells alone (and more to come), but literally having less-than-half BAB and being "messier" overall really hurts it in my eyes, especially given the newish DM's understandable distaste for complicated builds. Besides, the group I'm designing this for (as a backup character) already has a full Wizard, so I'd rather not compete with them too directly. I can handle the utility and leave them more slots free for battlefield control.

So it seems like the simplest solution (Eldritch Scoundrel) really is the best for me in this case. Thanks for pointing it out!
Rather than Sleepless Detective, I'd recommend a URogue 1/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 8
Use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to qualify for Arcane Trickster at level 4.

But, with you having weapon-based combat in mind, I recommend Eldritch Scoundrel. Arcane Trickster is better for a blaster sneaky mage.

[Giegue]

There is already some great suggestions here. I personally would go with an Eldritch Scoundrel, but because I can, I'm going to throw another possibility into the book...

Wildblooded (Arcane) Seeker Sorcerer.

Yes, you only get 2+ Int skills, but Wildblooded (Arcane) shifts your casting stat from charisma to intelligence to buff your skill points substantially. The seeker archetype, meanwhile, gives you trapfinding (as a rogue) and disable device as a class skill. This build is a perfectly viable "rogue replacement" that gets full sorcerer casting, complete with those all powerful 9th level spells. However, since you care more about melee, the Eldritch Scoundrel is better than this build, since the wildblooded arcane seeker sorcerer is pretty much never going to do melee and is more a "fullcaster who can do rogue things" instead of "a rogue who can do magic-y things," and you seem to want the latter more than the former. Just thought I'd throw it out there despite, though.

[Serafina]

Depending on the type of caster you want, you might also be happy with the Psychic Detective (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/psychic-detective-investigator-archetype/) Investigator.
Specifically, you get psychic casting (so you can wear armor, have no verbal or somatic components, but have to worry about emotion-effects and Concentration-checks can be harder), which isn't quite the same as arcane casting but is thematically closer to it than to divine casting.
You also cast from the psychic list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/psychic/), which does have a lot of spells you'd take from the Wizard-list too.

And because the Investigator already god "spells" or rather Alchemy, and you really just change your type of casting, the archetype gives up significantly less too.
Quite importantly for you, you get a ton of support for skills.
You get 6+Int skill points on an Int-heavy class.
You get trapfinding.
You get Inspiration - which basically amounts to "+1D6 or more to skill checks" and some additional uses.
The Investigator should actually blow the Rogue out of the water in terms of skills.

And you wouldn't be bad in combat either.
At 4th level, you can add half your level to attack and damage. That basically means you'll have an easier time hitting than the Rogue, and even if you don't get Dex-to-Damage from somewhere, you should do pretty much the same damage if not more.
There's also other nifty tricks - it's possible to add your Inspiration to attack and twice it to damage, which can add up.

And as for my favorite trick with the Psychic Investigator:
You get a Phrenic Amplification at 3rd level. Use it to take Kinetic Enhancement (http://archivesofnethys.com/PsiTechDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Kinetic%20Enhancement ) - which adds your Int-modifier to your Combat Maneuver Bonus.
If you take the Dirty Fighting (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dirty%20Fighting) feat, you'll get to make any combat maneuver with a +2 bonus when you're flanking. Take Agile Maneuvers (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Agile%20Maneuvers) too, and Combat Stamina if necessary, and between adding your Dexterity, your Intelligence, half your level and then at least another +2, you ought to have a high chance of succeeding at that combat maneuver.
It still won't be more effective than doing damage all the time unless you invest into getting those combat maneuvers in place of an attack or such, but it's amazingly flexible and ought to be pretty fun to play.