What tier would this fighter be?

[Particle_Man]

Imagine a house rule whereby a fighter gets every single fighter bonus feat automatically, and as soon as they are eligible. For example, they get weapon specialization in all weapons when reaching fighter level 4, and at first level they will have power attack and cleave and combat expertise and improved trip, etc., etc., etc.,

What tier would such a fighter move up into, if at all?

[Psyren]

If they're getting the same feat more than once, wouldn't that grant them every maneuver via Martial Study + Stance?

[InvisibleBison]

If they're getting the same feat more than once, wouldn't that grant them every maneuver via Martial Study + Stance?

Not every maneuver; Martial Study can only be taken three times. They might know every stance, though, since Martial Stance doesn't have any limits on how often it can be taken.

[Grey Watcher]

Imagine a house rule whereby a fighter gets every single fighter bonus feat automatically, and as soon as they are eligible. For example, they get weapon specialization in all weapons when reaching fighter level 4, and at first level they will have power attack and cleave and combat expertise and improved trip, etc., etc., etc.,

What tier would such a fighter move up into, if at all?


If they're getting the same feat more than once, wouldn't that grant them every maneuver via Martial Study + Stance?

It gets even better. Thanks to Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness), they have literally infinite hit points. Assuming the game ever gets out of the infinite loop of trying to calculate them. :smalltongue:

Overflow glitch, anyone?

EDIT:


Toughness is not actually a Fighter bonus feat.

To the OP: in your hypothetical, does the Fighter still need to meet reqs like 13 Int for Combat Expertise?

Derp. :smallredface:

[Thurbane]

Toughness is not actually a Fighter bonus feat.

To the OP: in your hypothetical, does the Fighter still need to meet reqs like 13 Int for Combat Expertise?

[Seerow]

This reminds me of a fun thread from a few years back http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335680-The-Bonus-Feat-PEACH-BASE

[Psyren]

It gets even better. Thanks to Toughness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#toughness), they have literally infinite hit points. Assuming the game ever gets out of the infinite loop of trying to calculate them. :smalltongue:

Overflow glitch, anyone?

As noted this isn't a Fighter feat, but I'd still incorporate some kind of rule that duplicate feats only work either if they're (a) capped or (b) each time you select results in a new option rather than just incrementing the numbers on an existing one. So NI Weapon Focus would work because you then get it for all weapons rather than getting +10000 to one of them.

[Inevitability]

High tier 4. There's still more than enough situations where the fighter isn't useful (because fighter bonus feats are pretty much universally combat-oriented), but boy are they great combatants now.

Also, dipping fighter just got so much better. :smalltongue:

[Zanos]

Not every maneuver; Martial Study can only be taken three times. They might know every stance, though, since Martial Stance doesn't have any limits on how often it can be taken.
They're also still at half intiator level, so maximum of 5th level maneuvers at 20.

There's around 200 unique fighter bonus feats. I'd guess tier 3?

[eggynack]

There's around 200 unique fighter bonus feats. I'd guess tier 3?
Reasonable guess. Could be four if they're not running much out of combat stuff, though if they're getting every stance within a certain level range that could maybe help. It's also kinda nice that the ultra fighter has all their combat feats basically handled, meaning they can use standard feats on cool stuff. This could just be enough fighting power to justify three on its own, when taken in combination with the limited non-combat.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder this gets a lot more interesting thanks to Advanced Weapon Training being available as a feat - and that's before we allow 3rd-party like Path of War.

[Jay R]

All Fighters would be the very similar, as in previous versions of D&D.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier X: unplayable. Reposting from the other thread:

Oh, definitely the second, by about a mile and change. Severely, even cripplingly so, in the most literal sense of the phrase: the game would break, in that fighters would become borderline- to utterly-unplayable. Every time you leveled up, you'd have to spend literally hours pouring through dozens of books to figure out what you now qualified for, and in-game you'd have to spend literally hours pouring through your dozens of pages of character sheet to try to figure out just what the heck modifiers are applying to this one specific action you're trying to do-- never mind the dozens of new options added by assorted feats.

I mean, put it like this: I spend way too much time on D&D forums, I post in optimization threads, I've written or rewritten entire two gaming systems, I literally wrote a handbook on feats, and I would not feel comfortable running a character like that.
Do you know how many Fighter feats there are? Do you know how many fiddly little situational bonuses that would be?

[Kantolin]

Ironically, in many cases, I don't know if this would be that different numbers-wise than an ubercharger, outside of possibly the addition of maneuvers.

I mean, an ubercharger (or some other damage build like a dungeoncrasher?) does 'target dies' damage, so having access to thirty different +1s in various circumstances just makes it 'Target dies +30'?

I mean, I do think there are enough fighter bonus feats that offer unusual features which make it much easier to apply said damage, and I'm sure somewhere out there is a fighter bonus feat of flight or something, but I actually think this would have trouble hitting tier 3, again possibly outside of the addition of maneuvers (which would set it to tier 3 fairly quickly).

It'd certainly raise the fighter's floor, though. I'm sure after a little bit, someone would make a combat checklist so people could just use that and easily manage 90% of the class without needing to actually check every feat. If that summary/handbook was printed into the class it'd make life even easier ;)

[Bucky]

Ironically, in many cases, I don't know if this would be that different numbers-wise than an ubercharger, outside of possibly the addition of maneuvers.


Ubercharger plus all the archery feats is a meaningful upgrade to Ubercharger, especially with Quick Draw.

And the omnifighter gets some pretty good defense thrown in even within core: Blind-fight, mobility and deflect arrows

[Kantolin]

the omnifighter gets some pretty good defense thrown in even within core: Blind-fight, mobility and deflect arrows

That's the kind of things I meant by 'easier to apply the damage'. They make it easier to hit the enemy with your ubercharge.


Ubercharger plus all the archery feats is a meaningful upgrade to Ubercharger, especially with Quick Draw thrown in.

Ooh, I didn't even think about archery mixing into the mix. That /is/ indeed a thing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ubercharger plus all archery feats won't necessarily be a thing, though, because of stat requirements.

Actually, I think a more interesting version would be if the Fighter could ignore all requirements for their bonus feats, like the Martial Monk. THAT might make a meaningful difference in an elegant way by letting you sidestep long feat chains and nab only the ones you really need.

[Psyren]

Tier X: unplayable. Reposting from the other thread:

Do you know how many Fighter feats there are? Do you know how many fiddly little situational bonuses that would be?

Well yeah, it would be pretty complicated, but I think the spirit of the exercise was to assume you have a pet AI or something to help you remember all the modifiers.

[Zanos]

Well yeah, it would be pretty complicated, but I think the spirit of the exercise was to assume you have a pet AI or something to help you remember all the modifiers.
Or you could just ignore the feats you don't feel like remembering, because if you can't remember them they probably weren't that great anyway.

[eggynack]

I wonder how much the data here could be compressed. Like, leaving aside ToB stuff, a lot of these abilities are going to apply to standard combat maneuvers, right? So you can maybe just write up how each of those maneuvers acts after you've applied all these feats. Even with further out of the way stuff, like boomerang shenanigans, you can just make up a little thingamajig that lists all the stuff that happens when you throw a boomerang. By this mode of feat compression, you wouldn't even consider something like shock trooper as one object. You'd write down the two bull rush things you can do in the bull rush section, and the one charging thing you can do in the charging section. It sounds like a book keeping nightmare, but if it works such a character could be maybe plausibly played in a reasonably optimal fashion, not ignoring large swaths of feat power on a constant basis. It certainly sounds easier than going through your whole feat list every time it's your turn, and also sometimes when it's not your turn.

[Zanos]

200 fighter feats is less spells than most of my high level wizards have, so making a quick reference spreadsheet shouldn't be that hard. I think the problem is that when you cast a spell you don't usually have to check to see if all of your other spells are affecting it. You could definitely set something up to make it easier on yourself though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

200 fighter feats is less spells than most of my high level wizards have, so making a quick reference spreadsheet shouldn't be that hard. I think the problem is that when you cast a spell you don't usually have to check to see if all of your other spells are affecting it. You could definitely set something up to make it easier on yourself though.
Exactly. A spell is a discrete unit, typically, that does a discrete thing. A feat is typically a situational feature, that adds to an existing thing. You don't run into a situation where you cast one spell then check the rest of your list to see what else happens.

Eggynack's suggestion is probably the only way to make such a character playable, though it sounds painful to do. I suspect you'd eventually wind up in the nebulous "tier 3.5" ground of the Warmage, Duskblade, and their ilk: very strong and versatile in a fight (perhaps even brokenly so), but not good for much outside of it.

[Jay R]

Tier X: unplayable. Reposting from the other thread:

Do you know how many Fighter feats there are? Do you know how many fiddly little situational bonuses that would be?

Technically, he's quite playable. Anybody could play the character, without using all his options, just as most of us can use our remotes without knowing what most of the buttons are for.

Edit: I agree with your emotional response, by the way. Nobody could figure out the optimal move in any given situation. But that's not the same thing as being unplayable.

[Particle_Man]

Toughness is not actually a Fighter bonus feat.

To the OP: in your hypothetical, does the Fighter still need to meet reqs like 13 Int for Combat Expertise?

Yes.

And this is just a thought experiment for a fighter 20, not something I am actually considering at this time. :smallsmile:

[Bucky]

Why go fighter 20 when you get almost all the benefits by level 17?

[Aimeryan]

I would agree with what has already been said; presuming you get past the paper-hell this would induce, you could reach very high Tier 4 from just that collection. You could then use your standard feats (and probably some freed-up WBL) to work on non-combat contribution to reach Tier 3.5, or maybe even full Tier 3?

A more viable situation may be to filter the list of fighter bonus feats to something workable without losing too much. Really, as long as that part still hit strong Tier 4 by itself the situation wouldn't change from that of the above.

[Lans]

Are ACFs still on the table?

[Inevitability]

Are ACFs still on the table?

That'd get kind of wonky. Several ACFs trade away the bonus feat gotten at level so-and-so. If you get all bonus feats at once, you'd have to trade all of them away, getting them back next level or never (which makes ACFs either a no-brainer or a horrible choice), or you'd let people give up a single bonus feat gained then, which lets you swap out stuff you weren't using anyway.

I don't think we should assume ACFs are in play; it'd get too weird.

[Psyren]

I kind of want to expand this concept to other weak classes. What tier would the following land at?

1) A Soulborn that learns every [Incarnum] feat it qualifies for.
2) A Soulknife (3.5) that learns every [Psionic] feat it qualifies for.
3) A Rogue (3.5) that learns every Skill Trick, [Luck] feat and [Ambush] feat it qualifies for.

At the very least, it should be a bit easier to peg, because there aren't 200 of these options spread across myriad sourcebooks.

[Lans]

For the soulborn thats only 15 feats, might up it a tier. +1 to AC, saves, +1 to attack and damage on charge 5 hp, an extra smite, 5 ft on speed,

[Aharon]

I kind of want to expand this concept to other weak classes. What tier would the following land at?

1) A Soulborn that learns every [Incarnum] feat it qualifies for.
2) A Soulknife (3.5) that learns every [Psionic] feat it qualifies for.
3) A Rogue (3.5) that learns every Skill Trick, [Luck] feat and [Ambush] feat it qualifies for.

At the very least, it should be a bit easier to peg, because there aren't 200 of these options spread across myriad sourcebooks.

1) Would mean ~11 points of essentia (I excluded the feats with class feature prerequisites, but allowed for the ones with 1 rank in heal, 4 ranks in concentration and 13 Dex as requirements. I also assumed every Incarnum-User should have at least 13 Con, anyway - which is the prerequisite for all of the incarnum feats.

The others are two much work :smallbiggrin:

[Aimeryan]

Ignoring combat ability (we'll presume the vast load of Fighter Bonus Feats cover this more than capable enough), could anyone come up with an array of non-combat stuff this Omnifighter could do that would be enough to call Tier 3, or at least Tier 3.5?

You've got your standard feats at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.
You've got your class skills... no, nevemind.

So, just really those seven standard feats. Craft Magic Arms and Armour is there, and any of the other craft magic item feats, but you have no spells - would this count if you had someone else provide the spells in your party? You could take skill feats, but your skill points per level is still meager.

Wealth-wise, you could buy magic items that let you be effective in covering a fair amount of the non-combat bases a Tier 3 class would be expected to cover. You could afford to do this too, since you wouldn't need the combat items so much. Sort of feels dirty to assign a Tiering based on buying magic items though, hmm.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think you'd actually save that much money, though. You'll still have all the problems with senses and mobility and defenses that a normal fighter has and needs to fix with magic items. I don't think you even reach PsyWar levels of T3.5-ness.

[Lans]

I don't think you'd actually save that much money, though. You'll still have all the problems with senses and mobility and defenses that a normal fighter has and needs to fix with magic items. I don't think you even reach PsyWar levels of T3.5-ness.

A +4 to hit is saving the fighter 48k at the least. Freeing up of feats lets him get teleport from incarnum or fiendish legacy. Flight can be gained through animal devotion, theres just a lot of things that can be gained through feats in this situation.

Thinking about the soulborn a bit more- getting all of the incarnum feats probably puts him in a high 5.

[OldTrees1]

Ignoring combat ability (we'll presume the vast load of Fighter Bonus Feats cover this more than capable enough), could anyone come up with an array of non-combat stuff this Omnifighter could do that would be enough to call Tier 3, or at least Tier 3.5?

You've got your standard feats at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18.
You've got your class skills... no, nevemind.

So, just really those seven standard feats. Craft Magic Arms and Armour is there, and any of the other craft magic item feats, but you have no spells - would this count if you had someone else provide the spells in your party? You could take skill feats, but your skill points per level is still meager.

Wealth-wise, you could buy magic items that let you be effective in covering a fair amount of the non-combat bases a Tier 3 class would be expected to cover. You could afford to do this too, since you wouldn't need the combat items so much. Sort of feels dirty to assign a Tiering based on buying magic items though, hmm.

Wealth? You can already buy magic items as a bog standard Fighter to enable their participation as a Tier 3 character. I think I would spend about a 17th level WBL on necessary enabling items. Remember Tier 3 is competence in your field and ability to always participation outside of your field. That is a rather low bar for a character even if it is a high bar for a class.
(This is why Tiering classes as if they were not attached to a character makes absolutely no sense. Value added takes synergy into account but value in isolation is irrationally clinical.)

Feats? Fighters already spend their standard feats on non Fighter feats, it is all those other martials that expend valuable standard feats on Fighter feats. So you would see next to no change here. They would still be taking things like Flight(draconic or abberrant), Teleport(soulmeld), & minor Social Combat(Imperious Command is a nice option) with these standard feats. No real improvement via this houserule.

Having all the Fighter Bonus feats, even the 99% that are not worth considering by themselves? That would take some deep diving which I do not have time for right now. Although I will briefly glimpse though crystalkeep and mention the non combat uses that some of those hundreds of fighter feats do:
+2 Preform
+2 saves vs inhaled poison and nauseating vapors
Hold your breath twice as long or preform check rounds
Balance DC 20 vs prone(regardless of source)
Balance DC 15 ignore difficult terrain
Spend 1 minute to replace allies(yes multiple) next will save results with your preform check result
Standard Action single target save vs shaken (description implies can be used in non combat scenarios)
Quick Draw(as the party Rogue)
+5 Move Silently while invisible
Hear the Unseen(I am impressed they made this a Fighter Feat. Between Blindsense 30 and Blindsight 30)
Being bound/entangled/grappled/manacled/etc is not enough to stop you attacking. This might be a get out of situation free card. Fear No Binds
Ignore 10 hardness +1 per point of Power Attack(unsure if it is per the penalty or per the damage)
Blindsight 5
Know the hp of adjacent creatures
Fast Healing 4
Negate a fear effect

Ones to highlight in my opinion:
Hear the Unseen + Combat Awareness = basically Blindsight 30 ft and knowing the hp of creatures can give some unexpectedly valuable information outside of combat.
Find Flaw = Objects no longer have hardness. Use your creativity.
We Few, We Happy Few = 1 minute mass(range = of your voice) ablative will save defense that lasts 10 minutes
Quick Draw = A well known feat, but ask the party rogue or prankster what they can imagine.
Combat Vigor = Fast Healing 4.
Fear No Binds = If you don't advertise it then you can lead an escape when you are thought to be helpless.
Breath Control = Preform check result grants you long breath? Might be useful for dealing with water the easy way.

[Aimeryan]

Wealth? You can already buy magic items as a bog standard Fighter to enable their participation as a Tier 3 character. I think I would spend about a 17th level WBL on necessary enabling items. Remember Tier 3 is competence in your field and ability to always participation outside of your field. That is a rather low bar for a character even if it is a high bar for a class.
(This is why Tiering classes as if they were not attached to a character makes absolutely no sense. Value added takes synergy into account but value in isolation is irrationally clinical.)

Feats? Fighters already spend their standard feats on non Fighter feats, it is all those other martials that expend valuable standard feats on Fighter feats. So you would see next to no change here. They would still be taking things like Flight(draconic or abberrant), Teleport(soulmeld), & minor Social Combat(Imperious Command is a nice option) with these standard feats. No real improvement via this houserule.

Hmm, I am getting a ticklish feeling about how Barbarian, as a class, manages to reach Tier 4 if we are saying that wealth and character feats are not being taken into account when tiering the class. Just not having Flight would be enough to reduce them to incompetent even in the combat field. Are we saying that a Barbarian could chuck away all his character feats and wealth and still be Tier 4? If not, then they must be being taken into account (or the Barbarian is being tiered incorrectly). If we are taking them into account, then why isn't Barbarian (and any other class) at least Tier 3?

[OldTrees1]

Hmm, I am getting a ticklish feeling about how Barbarian, as a class, manages to reach Tier 4 if we are saying that wealth and character feats are not being taken into account when tiering the class. Just not having Flight would be enough to reduce them to incompetent even in the combat field. Are we saying that a Barbarian could chuck away all his character feats and wealth and still be Tier 4? If not, then they must be being taken into account (or the Barbarian is being tiered incorrectly). If we are taking them into account, then why isn't Barbarian (and any other class) at least Tier 3?

Well, nobody ever blamed tier discussions with being self consistent, now did they? Judging in isolation is really hard to do, so most use double standards as suits their present needs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wealth isn't a factor in tier discussions because it sort of reflects the base class' capabilities already. The more you can do with your class features, the less money you need to waste on essentials like flight and the more you can dedicate to expanding your options. It's also a constant; anything one class can do with their wealth, another can as well.

The list of noncombat fighter features is interesting, though. It's looking kind of Warblade-y, actually: a few noncombat tricks and a lot of combat ones.

[Aimeryan]

Wealth isn't a factor in tier discussions because it sort of reflects the base class' capabilities already. The more you can do with your class features, the less money you need to waste on essentials like flight and the more you can dedicate to expanding your options. It's also a constant; anything one class can do with their wealth, another can as well.

Of course - the same goes for character feats. The issue here, as I see it, is that (as OldTrees1 mentioned) the tiering is not being consistent in this matter. There seems to be a sort of arbitrary "oh, well Barbarian is good at combat because of the class, and non-class feats, and wealth" but then "Barbarian is no good at non-combat stuff because non-class feats and wealth are not considered".

[OldTrees1]

Wealth isn't a factor in tier discussions because it sort of reflects the base class' capabilities already. The more you can do with your class features, the less money you need to waste on essentials like flight and the more you can dedicate to expanding your options. It's also a constant; anything one class can do with their wealth, another can as well.

The list of noncombat fighter features is interesting, though. It's looking kind of Warblade-y, actually: a few noncombat tricks and a lot of combat ones.

My point is that the tier discussions rarely talk about how the class impacts a character (how it deviates from the base capabilities) and more often talks about the class as if classes exist without characters (aka pretending the character with the class has 0 feats, 0 wealth, and 0 ability increases even at 20th level). Obviously the merits of the base capabilities should not be attributed to the class, but that is not the absence I am critiquing now is it?

There is a difference between standardizing your constants and pretending they are 0. If my lab is not at (0°C, 1 Atm) then I would be wrong to preform my analysis with the presumption I was at (0°C, 1 Atm). I could either convert (hard to do for complex systems) or preform my analysis at the realistic constants I have.

So if one wants tier comparisons to be applicable rather than merely empty debates that replicate though the culture, then one would want to compare the classes under the presumption of value added to equivalently optimized base capabilities. You might even be surprised at the small obvious nuggets that now get included in a formal and thus consistent sense. (some examples)
Fighter gets more standard(non list specific) feats than Barbarian because both take Power Attack
Synergy between spell list feat and Beguiler/Dread Necromancer
Warblades get more wealth than Fighters due to covering more of it in class

[Aimeryan]

I would love to see such a Tier list - I feel it would indeed be way more meaningful to actual play. Of course, the tiers in such a list would be covering Tier 1 to Tier 3 of JaronK's list (presuming wealth and non-class feats are enough to get you to Tier 3).

[OldTrees1]

I would love to see such a Tier list - I feel it would indeed be way more meaningful to actual play. Of course, the tiers in such a list would be covering Tier 1 to Tier 3 of JaronK's list (presuming wealth and non-class feats are enough to get you to Tier 3).

You would still see several Tier 4, 5, and 6 classes as some classes would have insufficient value added to rate a Tier 3 rank. However you would see a general, yet uneven, upward shift. The detail that wealth and HD feats might be able to approach a Tier 3 character on their own is not the same as classes being at least Tier 3.

For instance Fighter would probably end up at Tier 4 or Tier 3.5 with alternate class feature options. They can easily leverage their bonus feats to have normal feats that open up some out of combat or necessary abilities. However they would still have more non-discretionary wealth (have less effective wealth) in comparison to a Swordsage as a result of weaknesses the wealth needed to cover.

[Aimeryan]

You would still see several Tier 4, 5, and 6 classes as some classes would have insufficient value added to rate a Tier 3 rank. However you would see a general, yet uneven, upward shift. The detail that wealth and HD feats might be able to approach a Tier 3 character on their own is not the same as classes being at least Tier 3.

For instance Fighter would probably end up at Tier 4 or Tier 3.5 with alternate class feature options. They can easily leverage their bonus feats to have normal feats that open up some out of combat or necessary abilities. However they would still have more non-discretionary wealth (have less effective wealth) in comparison to a Swordsage as a result of weaknesses the wealth needed to cover.

Hmm, yeah thinking about it, while you may be able to reach Tier 3 with wealth and non-class feats by level 20, you may be Tier 4 or even Tier 5 at lower levels (especially because of how WBL works). Note, I am using the descriptive version of Tier 3 rather than a ranking order of classes.

[Lans]

2) A Soulknife (3.5) that learns every [Psionic] feat it qualifies for.


At the very least, it should be a bit easier to peg, because there aren't 200 of these options spread across myriad sourcebooks.

There are a lot of psionic feats, that probably make it a mid tier 4.

He can expend psionic focus to add 4d6 to an attack
Make an attack a touch attack
+10 to sense motive or jump
cleave
Also
+2 to all skills you have ranks
a psicrystal, psicrystal containment
Gain focus as a move action
Extra 100+ hp
Up the walls charging