Would gandalf be better off as a bard than a wizard?

[The Eye]

I mean he almost never cast any spells, his main powers are his fighting skills with a sword and his lore knowledge.

[Bartmanhomer]

I mean he almost never cast any spells, his main powers are his fighting skills with a sword and his lore knowledge.

Yes. It's very possible that gandalf could be a bard but he's more like an epic bard rather than a low level bard.

[veti]

He casts spells more often than he sings, though.

Face it, there just isn't a D&D class for Gandalf. But if you really must, I would tentatively suggest "Druid".

[Nimlouth]

No way... Bards are inherently musical (specially in 5e) and ol' good Mithrandir isn't. Gandalf is a wizard with swords proficiency. Remeber that in The Lord of the Rings, magic is different from D&D. You can argue that gandalf uses a more "raw" magic and even cantrips like thaumaturgy and prestidigitation. Deffinitevly not a bard. Maybe a high wisdom sorcerer...

[CharonsHelper]

In D&D terms he'd probably be best statted up as an outsider.

[Bartmanhomer]

No way... Bards are inherently musical (specially in 5e) and ol' good Mithrandir isn't. Gandalf is a wizard with swords proficiency. Remeber that in The Lord of the Rings, magic is different from D&D. You can argue that gandalf uses a more "raw" magic and even cantrips like thaumaturgy and prestidigitation. Deffinitevly not a bard. Maybe a high wisdom sorcerer...
High Wisdom is for clerics. High Charisma is for Sorcerers.

[Strigon]

In D&D terms he'd probably be best statted up as an outsider.

This.
High ability scores, good RHD, and a couple SLAs.
No class levels, though.

[Potato_Priest]

I'm not intimately familiar from where he gets his powers in terms of lore, but the powers that he uses are pretty druid/clericy. He summons giant eagles, heals people, and casts spells related to light most of the time, only rarely straying into force effects.

[Bartmanhomer]

In D&D terms he'd probably be best statted up as an outsider.

But Gandalf is human. How will he possibly be an Outsider? :confused:

[CharonsHelper]

I'm not intimately familiar from where he gets his powers in terms of lore, but the powers that he uses are pretty druid/clericy. He summons giant eagles, heals people, and casts spells related to light most of the time, only rarely straying into force effects.

In the fluff I believe that he's a celestial being and a servant of the high god - and the Balor is actually a fallen celestial of the same general class. Basically he's an angel who has been put in a semi-mortal body. Sounds like an outsider to me.


But Gandalf is human. How will he possibly be an Outsider? :confused:

Nope - he's not human. He's a wizard. In Middle Earth its its own species. No one can become one.

[The Glyphstone]

But Gandalf is human. How will he possibly be an Outsider? :confused:

He's not human, strictly. He looks like an old human man, but he's a Maiar, essentially the same thing as an angel in the cosmology of Middle-Earth. Wearing the shape of a mortal human limits his power.

[Jay R]

Gandalf does not have a class. His abilities are racial abilities (plus the fact that he's wearing one of the elven rings of power, Narya, the Ring of Fire).

According to Tolkien in The Silmarillion, Gandalf is one of the Maiar - a race of angels. So is the balrog, who had been corrupted by Morgoth (Melkor). He is identifying himself as associated with the power of the sun when he says, ""I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." [Anor is the sun.] He goes on to refer to the corrupt nature of the Balrog by saying "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn." [Udun is darkness.]

Five of the Maiar, including Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast, were sent to Middle-Earth cloaked in human form, to guide the elves and men, and provide knowledge. These are the wizards. It's a job description, not a class.

Gandalf came back "from the dead" because he is immortal.

[Bartmanhomer]

He's not human, strictly. He looks like an old human man, but he's a Maiar, essentially the same thing as an angel in the cosmology of Middle-Earth. Wearing the shape of a mortal human limits his power.
Really? This is the first time I'm hearing about it. Well he should be a half-celestial with good Disguise skills.

[Jay R]

This question was first originally brought up in The Dragon #5, in March 1977, in an article by Bill Seligman. His conclusions came from the assumption of the D&D rules as they then existed, with no research into the actual origins of Middle-Earth. [To be fair, The Silmarillion hadn't been published yet, but some of it was known from the appendices in The Lord of the Rings.]

Most well-read fans rejected his conclusions, and recognized that the rules of D&D simply do not describe the world of Middle-Earth.

Most specifically, "Wizard" isn't a class that an Elf or Man or any mortal could enter into, or that that anybody could rise up in levels. It referred to five beings, and nobody else.

[WbtE]

I mean he almost never cast any spells, his main powers are his fighting skills with a sword and his lore knowledge.

In old-school D&D terms, Gandalf is a Sage.

[Grim Portent]

As a Maiar Gandalf's magical abilities were all inherent, as was his durability, ability to speak multiple languages and immunity to aging. What he actually learned throughout his life was how to wield a sword, ride a horse, blow smoke rings, make fireworks, the culture and history of halflings, Gondor, Rohan and basically all the lands south of Gundabad and west of Mordor, he's not supposed to know much about Rhun, Harad or Umbar as I understand it. Presumably he also learned some other general skills over his long life such as basic tailoring, cooking and first aid.

In D&D terms he'd be an Angel with access to a wide variety of magic with no limit other than tiring himself out, and several levels in some kind of fighter class with access to a lot of skills.

[Bartmanhomer]

As I said before he should be a half-celestial human. What I didn't say he should be an epic druid/cleric.

[CharonsHelper]

As I said before he should be a half-celestial human. What I didn't say he should be an epic druid/cleric.

Except that a half-celestial would still get his abilities from classes. Gandalf's are all inherent.

[Bartmanhomer]

Except that a half-celestial would still get his abilities from classes. Gandalf's are all inherent.
Maybe an Astral Deva Angel should do the trick.

[Nimlouth]

High Wisdom is for clerics. High Charisma is for Sorcerers.

That's like saying that a Fighter can't have more than 8 Intelligence... *Sighs*

[Nimlouth]

Gandalf does not have a class. His abilities are racial abilities (plus the fact that he's wearing one of the elven rings of power, Narya, the Ring of Fire).

According to Tolkien in The Silmarillion, Gandalf is one of the Maiar - a race of angels. So is the balrog, who had been corrupted by Morgoth (Melkor). He is identifying himself as associated with the power of the sun when he says, ""I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." [Anor is the sun.] He goes on to refer to the corrupt nature of the Balrog by saying "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn." [Udun is darkness.]

Five of the Maiar, including Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast, were sent to Middle-Earth cloaked in human form, to guide the elves and men, and provide knowledge. These are the wizards. It's a job description, not a class.

Gandalf came back "from the dead" because he is immortal.

This is the right answer for what gandalf would be in D&D IMHO

[Bartmanhomer]

That's like saying that a Fighter can't have more than 8 Intelligence... *Sighs*

I didn't mean it like that.

[Potato_Priest]

Gandalf was Maiar, not human. He's basically a demi-god.

So Lvl 20. Got it.

[Mastikator]

Except that a half-celestial would still get his abilities from classes. Gandalf's are all inherent.

Sort of, some of it comes from his ring and some from his staff.

Though, they may be metaphorical. Literary power = real power in the world created by the Valar.

[Professor Chimp]

This question was first originally brought up in The Dragon #5, in March 1977, in an article by Bill Seligman. His conclusions came from the assumption of the D&D rules as they then existed, with no research into the actual origins of Middle-Earth. [To be fair, The Silmarillion hadn't been published yet, but some of it was known from the appendices in The Lord of the Rings.]

Most well-read fans rejected his conclusions, and recognized that the rules of D&D simply do not describe the world of Middle-Earth.

Most specifically, "Wizard" isn't a class that an Elf or Man or any mortal could enter into, or that that anybody could rise up in levels. It referred to five beings, and nobody else.On the other hand, there are "Sorcerers" in Middle-Earth. But in-universe this explicitly refers to any practitioner, mortal or otherwise, of Dark Sorcery, also called Witchcraft or Morgul Magic, as opposed to the Light Magic used by the Wizards/Istari and the Elves. Sorcerers are by extension also invariably evil.

While there isn't much info on it, while the magic of the Wizards is innate (as is probably that of the Elves), it does appear that Dark Sorcery can be gained, or perhaps granted by someone like Sauron or Morgoth. If the former, that makes them the closest equivalent to a D&D Wizard. If the latter more a D&D Cleric or maybe a Warlock. In either case, they're still not directly comparable though.

[Arkhios]

Depending on D&D edition, Gandalf might be better off as a bard - in 5th edition definitely as a lore bard. Bards in 5th don't have to sing or play music or give speeches to be a bard. They cast spells just like anyone else, but their repertoire is limited (as is Gandalf's).

And yes, Gandalf isn't human. Even a half-celestial or an aasimar would be an understatement, because Maiar are immortal beings from the time of the creation of Middle-Earth (read Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth to get a better picture, if you're interested in that sort of thing). Angel or Deva would indeed be closer to the truth.

If I were to create Gandalf as a PC, however, I'd go with Aasimar, since it's as close as it gets to being an immortal celestial being.

[CharonsHelper]

So Lvl 20. Got it.

If I were to stat out Lord of the Rings characters - none of them would be higher than level 6 or 8. Gandalf might be CR 10ish at most.

[Bartmanhomer]

Gandalf a demigod?! Forgive me for asking again, but how the heck is Gandalf a demigod? :eek:

[Grim Portent]

Gandalf a demigod?! Forgive me for asking again, but how the heck is Gandalf a demigod? :eek:

In his true form he is a being of pure light and wisdom from before the dawn of time and outside the void of space. He participated in singing the song of creation that gave rise to the world and it's history and took part in the physical shaping of it when he chose to incarnate himself upon the world to participate in it. He dueled a Balrog, a being of equal rank but unfettered by the form of mortality and immune to the weapons of mortal men, and won. Gandalf is strongly implied to be immune to anything short of the Witch King of Angmar after his return as the White, and that's with much of his true power still held from him.

He is of the same class of being as Balrogs and Sauron, the former of which were once Maiar of living fire who served the Valar (basically archangels where the Maiar are angels) entrusted with shaping mountains, valleys and all the things and places of earth and stone. Sauron himself is just the apprentice of Morgoth, the first and mightiest dark lord, a fallen Valar who had coveted power and independence since before time or space existed and who created all that is dark and wicked in the world.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Guys - just take a look in Adventures in Middle Earth (http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/adventures-in-middle-earth/)- the 5e system Middle Earth RPG - and see what they do there...

Oh look - none of the D&D classes are used to model middle Earth heroes and NPCs. Well, whaddya know?

[Hawkstar]

Maybe an Astral Deva Angel should do the trick.

Nope. Try Maiar. It's its own thing entirely.

[Jay R]

The D&D rules are not tools to provide any kind of fantasy background or character. They create a specific kind of world and specific character types.

Trying to describe Gandalf in D&D terms is as meaningless as trying to describe him in American football terms.
"He throws fireballs. He's a quarterback."
"He stopped the balrog from advancing. He's a defensive lineman."
"He helped choose the team and lead them. He's a coach."

Tolkien created a detailed world with its own history, cosmology, and languages.


And it's completely internally consistent. That alone makes it impossible to reconcile with D&D.

[Max_Killjoy]

The D&D rules are not tools to provide any kind of fantasy background or character. They create a specific kind of world and specific character types.

Trying to describe Gandalf in D&D terms is as meaningless as trying to describe him in American football terms.
"He throws fireballs. He's a quarterback."
"He stopped the balrog from advancing. He's a defensive lineman."
"He helped choose the team and lead them. He's a coach."

Tolkien created a detailed world with its own history, cosmology, and languages.


And it's completely internally consistent. That alone makes it impossible to reconcile with D&D.


You beat me to it. Well said.

The idea of D&D as a "universal fantasy RPG system" just doesn't hold water, and yet there will always be those who try to use it that way.



Guys - just take a look in Adventures in Middle Earth (http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/adventures-in-middle-earth/)- the 5e system Middle Earth RPG - and see what they do there...

Oh look - none of the D&D classes are used to model middle Earth heroes and NPCs. Well, whaddya know?

Wait, is that a D&D-based game that admits you can't shoehorn every character in a pre-existing setting into the neat little pigeonholes of class/level systems?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

...
Wait, is that a D&D-based game that admits you can't shoehorn every character in a pre-existing setting into the neat little pigeonholes of class/level systems?
Yup.

It uses the bare mechanics of D&D 5e (stripping out the classes, races, magic system - and replacing them with properly Middle Earth versions), and couples them with the flavour mechanics of Crucible 7's The One Ring (like the fatigue, misery and shadow systems).

I have heard very good things about it, but I've not played it yet.

[Beleriphon]

Guys - just take a look in Adventures in Middle Earth (http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/adventures-in-middle-earth/)- the 5e system Middle Earth RPG - and see what they do there...

Oh look - none of the D&D classes are used to model middle Earth heroes and NPCs. Well, whaddya know?

In fairness, a number of them strong resemble D&D classes with the serial numbers filed off.


Yup.

It uses the bare mechanics of D&D 5e (stripping out the classes, races, magic system - and replacing them with properly Middle Earth versions), and couples them with the flavour mechanics of Crucible 7's The One Ring (like the fatigue, misery and shadow systems).

I have heard very good things about it, but I've not played it yet.

It still has classes, but they are more appropriate to Middle Earth, and the "races" are actually cultures. There are eight human cultures, and one culture for elves, dwarves and hobbits. The idea on the non-humans is that the game only covers the area around Erebor, Dale, the Shire and maybe as far south as Rohan. Set between the events of The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring the game doesn't really deal with any of the other cultures of Middle-Earth as far as non-humans go.

[Jay R]

In fairness, a number of them strong resemble D&D classes with the serial numbers filed off.

That seems only fair. I was playing D&D when they files the serial numbers off the hobbits, ents, and balrogs.

[hymer]

Bards are inherently musical (specially in 5e) and ol' good Mithrandir isn't.


https://youtu.be/4GLWBiX_HnU

Thus Gandalf softly sang.

[Beleriphon]

That seems only fair. I was playing D&D when they files the serial numbers off the hobbits, ents, and balrogs.

It is. The nice thing is what's left and replaced does give a strong Middle-Earth feel. For example the Burglar class is a straight up D&D 5E rogue, with two subclasses with more Tolkienesque feels than the the D&D rogue type, although one could sub in a Burglar into a D&D game no problem. The Slayer is a barbarian in all but name, and it has less mystical leanings and more angry dude with a sword feel.

The biggest change is that the game rejiggers a good bit of the equipment. For example no plate, or even half-plate. The best armour you can get is a dwarf-make chain hauberk with a dwarf-make shield. The weapons reflect the world of Middle-Earth, so not rapiers but there is a broadsword which would really be an arming sword to us, and effectively replaces the D&D rapier but does slashing damage instead.

So over all its flavourful game that anybody that likes D&D will enjoy the heck out of while also capturing the feel and style of Tolkien's works.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

...
So over all its flavourful game that anybody that likes D&D will enjoy the heck out of while also capturing the feel and style of Tolkien's works.

Which is why I personally want to play The One Ring more than I want to play AiME - less D&D, more JRRT.

[The Eye]

Hey guys calm down, I know he is a Maiar, it's just that I was thinking and to me it would make more sense for him to be a bard than a wizard, since he has no direct battle spells and use a lot of lore knowledge. Guess not.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hey guys calm down, I know he is a Maiar, it's just that I was thinking and to me it would make more sense for him to be a bard than a wizard, since he has no direct battle spells and use a lot of lore knowledge. Guess not.

My recollection of a D&D bard is very much a class that's meant to be a "magical troubadour", and that doesn't seem to fit Gandalf.

[hymer]

I know he is a Maiar

Stephen Colbert got to you, didn't he? Maiar is the plural. The singular is Maia. :smalltongue:


I was thinking and to me it would make more sense for him to be a bard than a wizard, since he has no direct battle spells and use a lot of lore knowledge.

No direct battle spells? Throwing fire at wolves (twice)? Shafts of light that send Nazgûl packing? Whatever he did at the top of Silvertine which looked a lightningstorm from afar? Something he also did at Weathertop when besieged there by Nazgûl?

I beg to differ. :smallsmile:


My recollection of a D&D bard is very much a class that's meant to be a "magical troubadour", and that doesn't seem to fit Gandalf.

But if you think of it as a loremaster instead, it makes more sense. And loremaster was, as far as I know, a bardic shtick as far back as it goes in D&D.

[Beleriphon]

My recollection of a D&D bard is very much a class that's meant to be a "magical troubadour", and that doesn't seem to fit Gandalf.

It varies between editions. Some editions had it as this pseudo-skald druid thing, others did the magical troubadour, and 5E tends to go with magical loremaster/traveler/skald.

[Potato_Priest]

The D&D rules are not tools to provide any kind of fantasy background or character. They create a specific kind of world and specific character types.

Trying to describe Gandalf in D&D terms is as meaningless as trying to describe him in American football terms.
"He throws fireballs. He's a quarterback."
"He stopped the balrog from advancing. He's a defensive lineman."
"He helped choose the team and lead them. He's a coach."

Tolkien created a detailed world with its own history, cosmology, and languages.


And it's completely internally consistent. That alone makes it impossible to reconcile with D&D.

While this is true, I still think it's an interesting debate. Imagine if you were challenged to recreate a famous painting as a pebble mosaic. You won't end up with the same thing, but it might look similar and it's not as though trying is entirely worthless just because you can't get a perfect approximation.

[Eldan]

https://youtu.be/4GLWBiX_HnU

Thus Gandalf softly sang.

I was about to say. Magic is music and music is magic.

[Eldan]

The D&D rules are not tools to provide any kind of fantasy background or character. They create a specific kind of world and specific character types.

Trying to describe Gandalf in D&D terms is as meaningless as trying to describe him in American football terms.
"He throws fireballs. He's a quarterback."
"He stopped the balrog from advancing. He's a defensive lineman."
"He helped choose the team and lead them. He's a coach."

Tolkien created a detailed world with its own history, cosmology, and languages.


And it's completely internally consistent. That alone makes it impossible to reconcile with D&D.

Duh. He's the team manager of a very promising kid's team. However, the enemy team suddenly brings on an adult in the middle of the game. Gandalf rightly thinks that's unfair and tells the adult to back off, this is a game for ten year olds. They get into a fistfight, they are both arrested, but Gandalf is let out on bail, while the other one isn't.

I need to write this fanfic, I think.

[Arkhios]

Duh. He's the team manager of a very promising kid's team. However, the enemy team suddenly brings on an adult in the middle of the game. Gandalf rightly thinks that's unfair and tells the adult to back off, this is a game for ten year olds. They get into a fistfight, they are both arrested, but Gandalf is let out on bail, while the other one isn't.

I need to write this fanfic, I think.

I bet that'd be awesome read!

[Eldan]

Well, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" may lose a bit of awesome if rendered as "Sir, I can not let you on this pitch, Sir, this is a kid's game, Sir, back off."

[Telonius]

Gandalf certainly has max ranks in Perform (Pyrotechnics).

D&D's entire system of magic just isn't very compatible with Tolkien's works. Magic in Middle Earth is usually more about knowing the true nature of things, and making a person or thing be what they truly are. If I were really going to model him in 3.x D&D, I'd probably have to completely redo Truenaming so it's not so worthless. As is, polymorphed Solar is probably the closest thing you're going to get.

[Jay R]

Duh. He's the team manager of a very promising kid's team. However, the enemy team suddenly brings on an adult in the middle of the game. Gandalf rightly thinks that's unfair and tells the adult to back off, this is a game for ten year olds. They get into a fistfight, they are both arrested, but Gandalf is let out on bail, while the other one isn't.

I need to write this fanfic, I think.

Delightful.

[Gravitron5000]

Well, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" may lose a bit of awesome if rendered as "Sir, I can not let you on this pitch, Sir, this is a kid's game, Sir, back off."

Seeing as it's a football team there should be plenty of ways to work in "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!". If the adult wants to replace the QB, it slots in nicely.

[Max_Killjoy]

I was about to say. Magic is music and music is magic.

????

:smallconfused:

[Eldan]

????

:smallconfused:

Tolkien's mythos takes inspiration from a lto of sources, but among other things Finnish and Celtic mythology. One of the things that is more clear in the Silmarilion than the Lord of the RIngs itself is that music is a powerful magical force and that a lot of powerful spells are sung. The world itself was sung into being by Illuvatar and the Maiar. So, Gandalf would have to know something about music, is my point.

[Max_Killjoy]

Tolkien's mythos takes inspiration from a lto of sources, but among other things Finnish and Celtic mythology. One of the things that is more clear in the Silmarilion than the Lord of the RIngs itself is that music is a powerful magical force and that a lot of powerful spells are sung. The world itself was sung into being by Illuvatar and the Maiar. So, Gandalf would have to know something about music, is my point.

OK, specific to that setting, yes.

[Grim Portent]

????

:smallconfused:

In LotR music and magic are closely related, a lot of magic involves singing, music sung by beings of power has the ability to entrance and enchant others and soothe injuries to the spirit. Even the world and it's history was sung into being by Iluvatar and the spirits.

Other than the world creation thing, an elf (? may have been a Maia, been a while) maiden kept imprisoned by Morgoth to sing and dance for him was able to enchant him and all the wicked things he took court with to fall asleep with her songs so she could escape when her rescuers arrived for her, and elfsong in general was meant to have restorative properties for the weary and wounded well into the third age when magic was fading.

It probably comes from the Norse mythological elements Tolkien drew some inspiration from, in which magic was often referred to as songs or described in similar fashion to music. I recall one translation from the Eddas is that Odin 'sang his songs' over the severed head of Mimir to bring it to life as an oracle.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Joe the Rat]

Seeing as it's a football team there should be plenty of ways to work in "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!". If the adult wants to replace the QB, it slots in nicely.
Once again the pond rears its head, sundering the speakers in twain.
But Association or no, it works either way.
(Association football = soccer, footie)

[Bohandas]

But Gandalf is human. How will he possibly be an Outsider? :confused:

IIRC he poses as a human but is actually one of the Maiar, an ancient race of spirit beings who assist the Valar (gods). (This would also sort of make him a space alien as the silmarillion ends with the Valar splitting middle earth into a seperate planet from their own land of Valinor which previously occupied the same world)

[Arkhios]

Random Trivia: Tolkien himself has confirmed that Gandalf was based upon Väinämöinen (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Väinämöinen), a god, a hero, and a poet of Finnish Folklore Epos Kalevala. Not exclusively, though. Gandalf has a fair amount of inspiration and features from Odin as well, iirc.

[Jay R]

Once again the pond rears its head, sundering the speakers in twain.

Not quite. The first reference to football in this thread (mine) unambiguously stated "to describe him in American football terms". All others have been replying to that reference.

[hymer]

Gandalf has a fair amount of inspiration and features from Odin as well, iirc.

Odin was also a god of skalds and scholars. He stole the mead of poetry from Suttung.

[Bohandas]

Once again the pond rears its head, sundering the speakers in twain.
But Association or no, it works either way.
(Association football = soccer, footie)

I think people need to stop sayi g "football" and either say "gridiron" or "soccer". It's less confusing that way.

[Âmesang]

It's been ages since I read either The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so please don't mind me too much when I try to clarify a few things—I won't doubt that I may be wrong here or there:


Gandalf does not have a class. His abilities are racial abilities (plus the fact that he's wearing one of the elven rings of power, Narya, the Ring of Fire).
One thing that I recall was that Narya's purpose wasn't so much literal fire powers but the ability to "kindle hope in the hearts of others."

As Elrond (with Mithrandir's help) used water to wash away the Nazgûl I was going to make a counterpoint regarding his ring, Vilya… but further research indicates that Vilya is the Ring of Air—Galadriel's Ring, Nenya, was the Ring of Water. Heh. (That whole scene was stolen by Arwen, anyway!)

I do remember hearing years ago a theory that the rings were thusly named to represent the final resting places of the Simarils themselves.


According to Tolkien in The Silmarillion, Gandalf is one of the Maiar - a race of angels. So is the balrog, who had been corrupted by Morgoth (Melkor). He is identifying himself as associated with the power of the sun when he says, ""I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." [Anor is the sun.] He goes on to refer to the corrupt nature of the Balrog by saying "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn." [Udun is darkness.]
Was Anor a name give to the sun by Men? I remember the "sun" being a kindly Maia of Fire, Arien, taking up into the sky the last fruit of Laurelin the Golden, one of the Two Trees of Valinor that was slain by Morgoth, the First Dark Lord (Sauron's master) and Ungolient, a great shadow in the form of a she-spider.

On top of that, the "Secret Fire" might refer to the life-giving "flame of creation" that is with Eru Ilúvatar, the God of the Middle-earth cosmos, creator of the Ainur (Valar [Powers of the World] and Maiar [their servants] and the universe as a whole, with the latter singing the world, Arda, into being (Middle-earth being only a continent equivalent to western Eurasia).

Likewise, "flame of Ûdun" may be a reference to the balrog's master, Morgoth, as Ûdun was another name for Utumno, Morgoth's great underground fortress that existed far in the north before the awakening of the Elves (and destroyed by the Valar before the awakening of Men, the "dawn" of the First Age).

[hymer]

I think people need to stop sayi g "football" and either say "gridiron" or "soccer". It's less confusing that way.

May I suggest instead that we stop calling American football 'football' altogether? It's more like handball. :smallconfused: Or call it 'American rugby'. That makes more sense.


Was Anor a name give to the sun by Men?

'Anor' is Sindarin, so very, very likely not (though Sindarin was used by some Men).


On top of that, the "Secret Fire" might refer to the life-giving "flame of creation"

It may be that Gandalf's speech is tautological, and he is referring to the same thing by two different names, though I rather doubt it. The quote is


I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor

So is he both the servant and his master's wielder? That sounds strange to me, though not impossible. It's a pretty mysterious passage in many ways. Some even read into it that Gandalf is warning the Balrog that he is wearing the ring of fire; which would be a silly thing to do in front of so many enemies, and calling that ring 'the flame of Anor' doesn't fit with what we know - it was made in Eregion relatively recently. And Gandalf is certainly no servant to Narya, so that part doesn't fit either.
I think that saying he wields the flame of Anor is him saying he a Maia. In revealing himself in word and deed, he is making himself more powerful, 'uncloaking' himself (a term he uses to Bilbo when Bilbo is struggling to leave the One Ring behind). And that his being a servant to the Secret Fire is indeed alluding to the fire that burns at the heart of the world, and through that saying that Gandalf is an agent of agents of Ilúvatar.


Likewise, "flame of Ûdun" may be a reference to the balrog's master, Morgoth, as Ûdun was another name for Utumno, Morgoth's great underground fortress that existed far in the north before the awakening of the Elves (and destroyed by the Valar before the awakening of Men, the "dawn" of the First Age).

I think you can take that to the bank. :smallsmile: Gandalf is saying 'I know you for what you are, and I know where you came from'.

[Eldan]

It's an old fact by know, but it's called football because it's played on foot, not horseback. Really, most modern team games are football.

[hymer]

Really, most modern team games are football.

Oh good, that will be much less confusing! :smallbiggrin:

[anniepeete]

I think yes!! Its better one.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's an old fact by know, but it's called football because it's played on foot, not horseback. Really, most modern team games are football.

In particular, soccer (association rules football, via England's odd way of forming slang), rugby, American "gridiron" football, Gaelic rules football, and Australian rules football, all descend from a common origin.

[Jay R]

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor
So is he both the servant and his master's wielder?

He is the servant and the wielder of his master's flame. It's no different from saying, "I am a knight of King Prootwattle. He gave me this sword with which to fight injustice."

[hymer]

He is the servant and the wielder of his master's flame. It's no different from saying, "I am a knight of King Prootwattle. He gave me this sword with which to fight injustice."

It rather is. The Secret Fire is a specific, albeit highly mysterious, phenomenon in Middle-earth, and it burns at the centre of creation. Anor, in contrast, it the sun. That's about as far apart as you can get in Middle-earth. Any further and you're in the Void.

[hamishspence]

If the Secret Fire is synonymous with the Flame Imperishable, then it may, on some level, burn in everything.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Secret_Fire

[runeghost]

It's been ages since I read either The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, so please don't mind me too much when I try to clarify a few things—I won't doubt that I may be wrong here or there:


One thing that I recall was that Narya's purpose wasn't so much literal fire powers but the ability to "kindle hope in the hearts of others."

As Elrond (with Mithrandir's help) used water to wash away the Nazgûl I was going to make a counterpoint regarding his ring, Vilya… but further research indicates that Vilya is the Ring of Air—Galadriel's Ring, Nenya, was the Ring of Water. Heh. (That whole scene was stolen by Arwen, anyway!)

I do remember hearing years ago a theory that the rings were thusly named to represent the final resting places of the Simarils themselves.

Some fun speculation about the Three:

The Three were all created by Celebrimbor, in secret. At least secret from his disguised co-ring maker, Sauron/Annatar, and probably from his fellow elvish ringmakers, too. He pretty obviously made them with intended recipients in mind. Nenya, the Ring of Air was made for Galadriel, and given to her by Celebrimbor. Vilya, the Ring of Water and chief of the Three was doubtless intended for Celebrimbor himself (he was not the sort to make ring for others and NOT keep one for himself). Which leaves the question of who Narya, the Ring of Fire and inspiration of the spirit was intended for. Might it have been intended for Celebrimbor's good friend and fellow ringmaker, the Maia who helped inspire the whole project?

Was the reason Narya ended up with Gandalf, and did so in his possession that its maker intended from the first that it be in the hands of a Maia who inspired others?

[hamishspence]

There's a theory that the reason Sauron never touched The Three, was that Celebrimbor distrusted him:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Celebrimbor

which wouldn't make much sense if he intended to give Sauron one of them, with his intention only ending after Sauron revealed the One Ring's existence.

[Kantaki]

I think Narya belonged to Cirdan before Gandalf arrived in Middleearth.
At some point the former gave it the latter because it would be more useful in his hands than lying around in a harbor.

Or something along those lines.

[Âmesang]

I do recall that Vilya was in the possession of Gil-Galad, the High King of the Elves of Middle-earth (slain in battle against Sauron alongside Elendil), before passing to Elrond. Speaking of Círdan, he was an elf of such advanced age (first or second generation?) that he actually had a beard.

A thing about the sun and the moon is that the light that they give off is impure (I think Tolkien's explanation for sunburns and such), having been marred by Morgoth and Ungoliant during their attack against Valinor, and thus lacks the purity of their parents, the Two Trees, Laurelin the Gold and Telperion the Silver… a pure light that now only exists in the Silmarils (although Telperion's is somewhat reflected through its "descendant," the White Tree of Gondor). The balrog itself is also corrupted, an angelic being that fell into darkness under Morgoth's influence… so I'd like to imagine that Mithrandir is marking a distinction between himself, an unfallen Maia wielding the "true flame," and the balor, a fallen Maia wielding a debased copy.

…

One thing I don't think I mentioned is that I like the idea of classifying Mithrandir as an outsider with spell-like abilities than simply as a character class; fits more thematically and also a lot simpler to stat out, in a manner. :smallsmile:

[Aeson]

I think Narya belonged to Cirdan before Gandalf arrived in Middleearth.
At some point the former gave it the latter because it would be more useful in his hands than lying around in a harbor.
Yes to the first point, more or less yes to the second, though it appears to me as though that happened when Gandalf arrived in Middle-Earth (c.TA1000) and not at some later point. From Appendix B of The Return of the King:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Cirdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-Earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and wither he would return.

"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labors will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."


The Three were all created by Celebrimbor, in secret. At least secret from his disguised co-ring maker, Sauron/Annatar, and probably from his fellow elvish ringmakers, too. He pretty obviously made them with intended recipients in mind. Nenya, the Ring of Air was made for Galadriel, and given to her by Celebrimbor. Vilya, the Ring of Water and chief of the Three was doubtless intended for Celebrimbor himself (he was not the sort to make ring for others and NOT keep one for himself). Which leaves the question of who Narya, the Ring of Fire and inspiration of the spirit was intended for. Might it have been intended for Celebrimbor's good friend and fellow ringmaker, the Maia who helped inspire the whole project?
I personally don't think that Celebrimbor had originally intended to give away any of the Three. According to the timeline for the Second Age in Appendix B in The Return of the King, the Three are forged in SA1590, and the One and Barad-dur are only created 10 years later, with the war between Sauron and the Elves starting and the Three being hidden a further 93 years after that. Ten years is plenty of time for Celebrimbor to have given Sauron the Ring of Fire, had he originally intended to do that, especially if Sauron was still in Eriador c.SA1590. Furthermore, the Three are only hidden in SA1693, when the war between Sauron and the Elves begins, which suggests that the Three were openly held by someone up until that time. The logical place to start looking for something which is hidden or lost is in its last known location, and that the Rings of Power are notable for the hold they have over their possessors1 only reinforces that, so "hiding" the Three by leaving them in the possession of those who were known to have them for much of the preceding century would quite likely be a very ineffective way of hiding the Three. There's also that Galadriel states in "The Mirror of Galadriel" that Sauron suspects but does not know that one of the Three resides in Lothlorien, which would seem odd if Galadriel had been known to be in possession of one of the Three prior to the Three being hidden - it isn't normal to just lose a Ring of Power, and with Lothlorien seemingly being one of the strongest remaining Elven realms at the end of the Third Age it seems unlikely that anyone could have seized the Ring by force of arms in the intervening ~4750 years.

1"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside." - Gandalf, speaking to Frodo in the "The Shadow from the Past." Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate and the statement is made while Gandalf is telling Frodo about the history of the Rings of Power with a focus on the One Ring, but given that Gandalf said "a Ring of Power" rather than "the Ring of Power" or "the One Ring" or "the Ruling Ring," and did so despite having already mentioned the existence of other Rings of Power than the One (including the 19 other Great Rings), the implication is that the statement is generally true for Rings of Power and not just for the One Ring.

[hamishspence]

1"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside." - Gandalf, speaking to Frodo in the "The Shadow from the Past." Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate and the statement is made while Gandalf is telling Frodo about the history of the Rings of Power with a focus on the One Ring, but given that Gandalf said "a Ring of Power" rather than "the Ring of Power" or "the One Ring" or "the Ruling Ring," and did so despite having already mentioned the existence of other Rings of Power than the One (including the 19 other Great Rings), the implication is that the statement is generally true for Rings of Power and not just for the One Ring.

After reading Unfinished Tales (Disaster of the Gladden Fields), and how during the battle Isildur had realised that he made a big mistake claiming the One Ring, and had been sent by his son to Rivendell to take the Ring to the Keepers of the Elven Rings (with the one survivor of the Gladden Fields massacre overhearing the speech between Isildur and his son, which is how it's known in the "present day"), I was thinking that it might be intended as a nod to Gandalf's comment on "playing with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care." Given that some of Unfinished Tales was written after LOTR was published.


The Three, at least in tie-in material, have different traits from the others - a mortal who put one on, wouldn't become invisible, for one thing:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q3-Invisible

so, maybe Gandalf's comments about inability to give up a Great Ring, are not intended to apply to them either, since he knows Cirdan gave up his.

[GrayDeath]

Duh. He's the team manager of a very promising kid's team. However, the enemy team suddenly brings on an adult in the middle of the game. Gandalf rightly thinks that's unfair and tells the adult to back off, this is a game for ten year olds. They get into a fistfight, they are both arrested, but Gandalf is let out on bail, while the other one isn't.

I need to write this fanfic, I think.

Please.do. ;)

[hymer]

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. [" ...] Granted, this statement is not entirely accurate

You wonder why Gandalf said that. He was given a ring by Círdan, who was given it by Celebrimbor*. He may have been unaware that Elrond received Vilya via Gil-galad, though I doubt it. And the dwarven rings it seems passed from father to son before the death of the ring keeper, something Gandalf knew in the Hobbit.
And of course, Sauron famously gave the rings to the Nazgûl, though that's likely different, both due to the intention and the lore and power of Sauron. And they gave them back to him.

*Edit: On thinking more, it may have gone Celebrimbor -> Gil-galad -> Círdan. I don't reallt recall. But it's a few hand-overs.

[hamishspence]

Maybe the histories of the owners of the Nine have become well known enough at this point for Gandalf to be able to describe how their owners never abandoned them (Sauron only getting them back when the owners had become Wraiths and subject to his authority).

[Beleriphon]

Maybe the histories of the owners of the Nine have become well known enough at this point for Gandalf to be able to describe how their owners never abandoned them (Sauron only getting them back when the owners had become Wraiths and subject to his authority).

Or its a function of the Nine, that Sauron's control was so great he could demand the rings be returned.

[Stealth Marmot]

Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White?

[The Glyphstone]

Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White?

Monty Python And The Holy Grail's Black Knight?

[Stealth Marmot]

Monty Python And The Holy Grail's Black Knight?

With Benito Mussili- DON'T START THAT WITH ME!

[The Glyphstone]

With Benito Mussili- DON'T START THAT WITH ME!

Glad to know someone got it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Guys, guys, Gandalf is a divine bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) 1/paladin 11 in an E6 setting, with the Devoted Performer (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/complete-adventurer--54/devoted-performer--3188/index.html) and Sword of the Arcane Order (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Sword_of_the_Arcane_Order) feats and the Mystic Fire Knight (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/mystic-fire-knight-paladin/index.html) ACF.

Servant of the divine? Check.
Member of an elite group following the Secret Flame Mystic Fire? Check.
Is a bigger badass than almost everyone else in the setting, but is low-key about it? Check.
Lawful Good moral center of his party? Check.
Fills his allies with courage and is unswerving in his own devotion? Check?
Very durable and resistant to most effects? Check.
Charisma and social skills out the ears? Check.
Skilled in melee combat? Check.
Smites evildoers and drives them off with glowy stuff? Check and check.
Blasty fire magic that comes from a different source than his other powers? Check.
Can smack Theoden with a staff to dispel Saruman's hold over him? Check.
Able to use signature low-level magic effects like light, knock, and daylight but only a handful of times? Check.
And most importantly, rides a smart, strong, holy horse that commands others of its kind? Check, check, check, and check.

I mean, it's obvious, isn't it? :smallwink: