Reduced Warlock Spell Progression with Other Spell Lists

[quinron]

I'm planning a class with a 1/3 caster archetype that uses the warlocks progression, in a manner similar to one of the archetypes for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter class (DM's Guild link (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170777/Blood-Hunter-Class) for the curious). Problem is, my hope for the archetype is to make it a blaster, but warlocks have nearly zero options for that.

Would 3 4th-level slots per short rest become horribly unbalanced if I gave the archetype the wizard's spell list instead of the warlock's? A la the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, I'd probably restrict the majority of the class's spells known to Evocation and one other school.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I'm planning a class with a 1/3 caster archetype that uses the warlocks progression, in a manner similar to one of the archetypes for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter class (DM's Guild link (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170777/Blood-Hunter-Class) for the curious).

I mean, sure? But why? What's the concept?


Problem is, my hope for the archetype is to make it a blaster, but warlocks have nearly zero options for that.

Am...am I being punk'd?

Warlocks are the best at Blasting. Eldritch Blast, plus ANYTHING with regards to their related Invocations makes them a fantastic ranged spell combatant! Fiend has access to some sweet spells like Fireball, which all fire at your highest spell level, and you can do it EVERY SHORT REST.


Would 3 4th-level slots per short rest become horribly unbalanced if I gave the archetype the wizard's spell list instead of the warlock's? A la the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, I'd probably restrict the majority of the class's spells known to Evocation and one other school.

Would giving an exceptionally powerful blaster mage the biggest and best spellbook ever unbalance it? Wizards get twice as many potential spells as anyone else.

Again, I think before any real help can come along we need to know the concept behind what you're making. I speak from experience with this. I once dreamed of an Intelligence Half-Caster, but I could never formulate what it was, so all the mechanics in the world were useless to me. What is the class supposed to be?

[Rhaegar14]

Warlocks are the best at Blasting. Eldritch Blast, plus ANYTHING with regards to their related Invocations makes them a fantastic ranged spell combatant!

Yes, but that's only when they have access to invocations. Eldritch Blast as a standalone cantrip is still the best of the blaster cantrips, but not by nearly so wide a margin.


Fiend has access to some sweet spells like Fireball, which all fire at your highest spell level, and you can do it EVERY SHORT REST.

That assumes that it makes sense to give them the Fiend Patron's expanded spell list. Without those he's not really wrong, Warlocks don't get much blasting outside Eldritch Blast.



Again, I think before any real help can come along we need to know the concept behind what you're making. I speak from experience with this. I once dreamed of an Intelligence Half-Caster, but I could never formulate what it was, so all the mechanics in the world were useless to me. What is the class supposed to be?

Both of my above counterarguments really just serve to highlight this last point of Ninjadeadbeard's, OP. We can't really make helpful suggestions without more context.

[quinron]

Many apologies - I should've explained better.

I'm looking to create a gun-based class that isn't a retread of the Pathfinder gunslinger - no grit, no deeds, etc. This archetype would have a kind of partner spirit that possesses one of their guns. The big flavor element is that the archetype gets some bonuses to single-target (or one-target-at-a-time) evocation spells that use ranged spell attack rolls - while the warlock gets a couple very good spells that fit that description, it doesn't get many. My inclination toward warlock is based on Sam Vimes from Discworld and his uneasy partnership with the Summoning Dark in Thud! and Snuff.

Rhaegar, you made the point that I neglected: I do plan to ignore the basic warlock's invocations, expanded spell lists, and other features. My plan is to give the archetype 3 expanded spell lists for handguns, "long guns" like rifles, and shotguns, which would provide spells mostly from the ranger list like hail of thorns and lightning arrow. Each list would only give 1 extra spell, and I'm on the fence about a) whether or not those spells will be automatically learned and their total spells known will be reduced by 1 per spell level, and b) whether they're stuck with their choice or they can move the spirit from gun to gun on a rest (probably long).

I like the idea of a character being able to get mechanical bonuses when firing a fire bolt or ray of frost out of their gun, but the warlock doesn't really have that option. As a workaround, I'm considering just giving them access to the blasting cantrips and restricting spells known to the warlock list and expanded spell list.

Thanks for the feedback, even though I made it hard to help - I'd like to hear your thoughts now that I've clarified a bit. I'm working on finding good options for those expanded spell lists, and I'll post them when I come up with something.

[Rhaegar14]

For starters, I recommend some feature like War Magic -- allowing them to make a gun attack when they cast a cantrip. Giving them a modifier to damage on spells cast out of their gun may also help, but if you go that route either don't have Eldritch Blast on their spell list or balance it assuming they take Eldritch Blast.

As far as spell lists go, have you considered Sorcerer? It's not quite as good as Wizard's, but still has plenty of blasting. And you could always restrict schools like the Eldritch Knight does.

[quinron]

Thanks, I hadn't considered sorcerer. For now, my plan is to give them bonus damage equal to their gun damage on one single-target spell attack per turn - so only one bolt from a scorching ray or eldritch blast. I think that should balance well.

As for core class features, I'll be posting those when I get them sorted, and I'm balancing the class against the fighter for optimal featless damage.