Is everyone going to just ignore the Lore Master Wizard?

[Asmotherion]

I mean, I get it. Everyone (including myself) is super excited with the new Hexblade. It's a very nice Archetype for my favorite Class in the game, namelly the Warlock.

However, everyone seems to be under-reacting to the fact that the Lore Master Wizard just got a Wish-variant ability, usable once per long rest. Wile it does not have the (limited) omnipotance of wish, by doing things no spell can, it does however include all spells any caster can cast at their current level, and when he eventually gains access to 9th level spells, it can duplicate them too (in contrast to Wish, which can only duplicate up to 8th level spells without sever consequences), including Wish itself.

The only possible limitations are that it can't duplicate spells with a casting time of more than one turn, as per "The ability to cast the spell vanishes from your mind whenyou cast it or when the current turn ends". However, it could mean that, as long as you start casting the spell, you keep the ability untill you cast it. However, by the time the Lore Master has access to Wish, this means the only spells he can't cast are Astral Projection (not on the OP side), Imprisonment (Situational), True Resurection (See coments below) and Foresight (The only spell out of those that matters, and he can still get it as a Wizard). Astral Projection, Imprisonment and Foresight are all in the Wizard Spell List, meaning he can easyly get access to them. Meaning the only spell the Lore Master can't cast is True Resurection... Sure, an excelent spell, but he still has access to regular Resurection, a spell that can bring back to life someone who died up to a centuary ago. Please think of all your game experiance with DnD. Now try to remember the last time you had to resurect something that died more than a centuary ago... Exactly... situational at best. It does however not allow you to cast prepared spells, and you do expand a spell slot as normal in doing so, so no double-wishes for you.

Lore Master (the level 2 ability) gives to the wizard a logical experteese in Arcana... and History? and Nature and Religion? ok, Arcana should be a given on any Wizard... maybe a chosen knowlage skill of your choice as well would be ok. But a full experteese on 4 skills is too much. AND using his Spellcasting Ability for initiative Rolls? Were they afraid Wizards were not strong enough or somethng? o_O

Spell Secrets is balanced, flavorfull, and very tactical. I like it a lot.

Alchemical Casting; Trying to copy metamagic and give some to the Wizard too? I'm not against the idea, but using a 2nd level spell slot to increase any spell's range to one mile is a bit too much... considering the Sorcerer can only increase his spells to 2x range. Limit it to that amound would be logical. It needs nerfing, overall too over-powered.

Prodigious Memory is a good and in-context ability. No problems there.

So, feedback? Thoughts?

[Vaz]

It's broke. It's UA. It's going back in the "Must try harder" pile. People want to discuss things that can actually be done and used more realistically in a game.

[Vanderhaust]

I think balance was not on the priority list for this entire unearthed arcana.

[SharkForce]

It's broke. It's UA. It's going back in the "Must try harder" pile. People want to discuss things that can actually be done and used more realistically in a game.

exactly this.

the loremaster ability to get expertise in all the "knowledge" skills is the only thing that isn't broken OP in the entire archetype. not that expertise in 4 skills is trivial or anything, but compared to the other nonsense they gave loremaster, expertise in 4 skills manages to sound pretty tame.

[Kileonhardt]

exactly this.

the loremaster ability to get expertise in all the "knowledge" skills is the only thing that isn't broken OP in the entire archetype. not that expertise in 4 skills is trivial or anything, but compared to the other nonsense they gave loremaster, expertise in 4 skills manages to sound pretty tame.

Exactly exactly this.

It's broken and we all know it. There's really nothing open to discuss.

Edit: To OP though, you say Spell Secrets is balanced. Spell Secrets is the most broken part of the whole tradition. Free on the fly damage type conversion with the option to choose force for everything is in no means balanced. To top all of that off you have a 1/sr saving throw conversion which almost always equates to 1/sr you automatically make something fail a save. All in all Spell Secrets is a 10/10 on the amazing and broken scale.

[Asmotherion]

Exactly exactly this.

It's broken and we all know it. There's really nothing open to discuss.

Edit: To OP though, you say Spell Secrets is balanced. Spell Secrets is the most broken part of the whole tradition. Free on the fly damage type conversion with the option to choose force for everything is in no means balanced. To top all of that off you have a 1/sr saving throw conversion which almost always equates to 1/sr you automatically make something fail a save. All in all Spell Secrets is a 10/10 on the amazing and broken scale.

I don't know... I think this can be re-worked as passable... Obviously remove the secondary ability, and then limit the conversion to only the Dragon Breath Damage Types (aka the damage types of chromatic orb-thunder) seems like a good restriction. To further this, maybe make it Evocation spells only, and you have yourself a nice thematic ability that can be fun to play with, without being too broken... I don't see too much of game balance getting hurt if you use an Acid Ball instead of a Fire Ball or a Cold Bolt instead of a Lightning Bolt.

Limit the expetrese to Arcana only, and no stupid Int initiatives should be enough to fix the Lore Master omonymous ability

Prodigious Memory does not bother me at all.

Alchemical Casting... well, it needs plain removing, and replacing with an other ability. They are trying too hard to bring the Archmage from 3.5e to 5e here, disreguarding game balance. I'd replace it with Scribe Scroll. Have them use a spell slot equal to spell level and a time of casting time+10 minutes/spell level to prepare a non-permanent (destroyed by the end of a long rest) spell scroll can be flavorfull, nice and not too unbalanced. Perhaps give them the option to work on permanent spell scrolls that are prepared in 1 day per spell level too, though even that is pushing too much IMO.

Finally, Master of Magic can be limited to Wizard Spells only. Right now, it's Limited Wish, or in other words, wish by level 14. Not cool. If it was however limited to wizard spells only, it can still be usefull, yet not terribly imbalanced. Obviously, components will be provided as nessesary, it will only deminish the casting time of some long spells. Not sure if it's balanced, but still much better than the currend ability.

I'd be happy to receve feedback.

[djreynolds]

Are you saying it is too powerful?

[Nimlouth]

UA only seems to release things that are 1: OP/Broken as F... or 2: Lacking substance, lacking inspiration, "meh".

It misses the point in most cases... These days i actually prefer to use the middle finger of vecna stuff (there's also tons of OP crap there) than UA. And it is true, I want to talk about things that I can actually USE in a game.

[Kryx]

I'd be happy to receve feedback.
You've received it above. Most people consider the archetype broken in concept. It's not fixable without redoing the whole thing imo

[jaappleton]

I have a suspicion that it's simply a collection of concepts of abilities, and is never intended to ever be put played 1-20 in a real game.

You'll see these abilities get refined and parsed out to other archetypes. The ability to alter a spells damage type for 1 Sorcery point on Dragon Sorcerer v2, for lack of a better term.

It's just a collection of possible abilities for other archetypes that they want tested.

When you give feedback, rate the abilities, and how appropriate they are for the level at which they're received. Saying "broken would never allow" doesn't actually provide feedback.

[Newtonsolo313]

you can literally kill a man from a mile away no save
(magic missle)

[jaappleton]

you can literally kill a man from a mile away no save
(magic missle)

You just out-Assassin'd the Assassin Rogue.

[Deathtongue]

The Lore Master Wizard was always going to be ignored by non-powergamers, even if it was balanced in line with the rest of 5th Edition.

It doesn't thematically do anything different from a regular wizard. It's just 'Wizard Plus'. Say what you like about the Technomage, Artificer, Bladesinger, and Theurge (and I think certain builds of the Theurge, especially at higher levels, make the archetype slightly more powerful than the Lore Master Wizard) but they at least fill a niche that you can't achieve with core material.

[jaappleton]

The Lore Master Wizard was always going to be ignored by non-powergamers, even if it was balanced in line with the rest of 5th Edition.

I'm a power gamer and I'm not touching Lore with a 10ft pole. It's too much.

There's a difference between making a solid, more-than-effective character and "I win".

[rollingForInit]

exactly this.

the loremaster ability to get expertise in all the "knowledge" skills is the only thing that isn't broken OP in the entire archetype. not that expertise in 4 skills is trivial or anything, but compared to the other nonsense they gave loremaster, expertise in 4 skills manages to sound pretty tame.

I'd say that Prodigious Memory is a decent and well-balanced ability as well.

Although Master of Magic would be somewhat easy to fix by just limiting what spell levels can be replicated. Limit it to 5th level spells and it'd be a strong ability, but probably not too powerful. Since there seems be a large step from level 5 to 6 that they stick to, spell level 5 would feel like a good point to cut it off. Another way would be to say that you have to choose specific spells that you can cast in this manner. Perhaps say that on level 14, and once on each of the following levels, you can choose 1 spell from any spell list and add it to your spells known and cast it with your spell slots. Or add them to a special pool of spells, of which you can cast one, once per day.

[Byke]

We use some UA stuff but Paladin of Treachery and Lore Master were banned, they just break the game.

[jaappleton]

We use some UA stuff but Paladin of Treachery and Lore Master were banned, they just break the game.

Out of curiosity, what's your issue with Treachery? I know its channel divinity can be overwhelming at early levels. But you could very easily Vengeance's 'auto advantage for the fight' is much more powerful, especially if paired with feats like GWM and Polearm Master.

[Athoren]

you can literally kill a man from a mile away no save
(magic missle)
Multiclass sorcerer and do it from 2 miles

[Byke]

Out of curiosity, what's your issue with Treachery? I know its channel divinity can be overwhelming at early levels. But you could very easily Vengeance's 'auto advantage for the fight' is much more powerful, especially if paired with feats like GWM and Polearm Master.

Treachery can also have auto advantage as well with conjure duplicate. They are just too strong at early levels. Brokenly so.

[Shining Wrath]

When I linked to this UA for my group, I explicitly banned Lore Wizard.

For example, Dominate Monster targeting the Tarrasque's Intelligence leads to a pet Tarrasque until Big T takes damage - which, as everyone knows, is difficult without magical weapons. For any monster guarding a location that doesn't have a dragon's Legendary resistance, a Lore Wizard hits them with a Save or Lose spell of some sort, and the party simply walks right by. Not too many monsters have 6 strong saves.

The "cast any spell you've ever seen" ability is also broken, as noted.

[Dr. Cliché]

The thing for me is that some of the abilities don't feel right on a Lore Wizard.

Spell Secrets and Alchemical Casting both seem like the sort of things that Evokers or Sorcerers should be using. :smallconfused:

[Shining Wrath]

The thing for me is that some of the abilities don't feel right on a Lore Wizard.

Spell Secrets and Alchemical Casting both seem like the sort of things that Evokers or Sorcerers should be using. :smallconfused:

Alchemical Casting does have a very metamagical feel to it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore the broken wizard subclass that punches the sorcerer's puppy in the gut and laughs.

[rbstr]

I really don't find Spell Secrets to be that bad, particularly the damage type change. You already have a feat in Elemental Adept lets you ignore resistance (and other stuff). Pick fire with that and it's basically the same thing as having forceball, forcing ray and force bolt. I think it's pretty cool flavor for an Archetype that's supposed to really know their ****.
The save switch is the real powerful part plus it encourages metagaming too much.

My main problem with Alchemical casting is that it's basically better metamagic. I mean shouldn't the Evoker be the one doing extra blasting damage?
IMO make the save switch a 6th level ability. Then make it burn a spell slot and make it only usable Int-mod/day.

[Newtonsolo313]

When I linked to this UA for my group, I explicitly banned Lore Wizard.

For example, Dominate Monster targeting the Tarrasque's Intelligence leads to a pet Tarrasque until Big T takes damage - which, as everyone knows, is difficult without magical weapons. For any monster guarding a location that doesn't have a dragon's Legendary resistance, a Lore Wizard hits them with a Save or Lose spell of some sort, and the party simply walks right by. Not too many monsters have 6 strong saves.

The "cast any spell you've ever seen" ability is also broken, as noted.
Check again tarrasqur has a bonus to int saves

[Spellbreaker26]

What really annoys me about the lore master is that it is not only broken, it makes no sense for it's thematic purpose (which, as others have mentioned, is pretty barebones in-an-of-itself).

It's a wizard with bonuses to lore and knowledge skills; yet gets to use it's highest stat as a bonus to initiative, which comes out of nowhere; how does it do this?

It's based on lore, therefore skilled prepwork, right? Except it can also change its spells on the fly on a level near to a sorcerer's metamagic, when the entire reason Sorcerers can tweak their spells is that they don't spend as much time memorising them. In fact, all its abilities explicitly forgive a lack of preparation; it can shift damage types, so don't bother wondering what's best, just pick the highest damage ones and then use them all as force. Don't bother picking a spell with an uncommon save, just take banishment and swap it's DC to intelligence. Don't bother thinking about whether you should sacrifice spell space on the off chance you might need feather fall, as a bonus action you can use it anyway! But the level 14 ability - don't bother yourself with those other classes, now you can cherry pick their best high level spell whenever you want. Without preperation, just pull it out of your aaaanurthed arcana.

What makes it worse is that my meta group has voted to allow it; one guy was saying that it was the only way he'd consider playing wizards.

Wizards are supposed to be a hard class to play! They've got a huge spell list and can get new spells fairly easily; the price you pay is having to do a lot of homework on what your spells can do. They reward careful planning and preperation; but this abomination is just taking that and adding all these ridiculous abilities on top.

[RulesJD]

Literally the 3rd post down on the main thread:

"Hooooooly crap did they throw balance straight out the window with these additions.

*snip*


But that pales in comparison to the Lore Wizard. Ability to change damage type and all is nice, but it's got nothing on increasing Save DC AND CHANGING THE SAVE STAT???

Seriously???

Okay, literally every spell I cast now requires an Int save instead. Congrats, game over. Lore Wizard wins.

Having basically a minor Wish spell at level 14 is just icing in the cake."


No one is ignoring the Lore Wizard. It's just been dismissed as unplayable at a table.

[Dr. Cliché]

What really annoys me about the lore master is that it is not only broken, it makes no sense for it's thematic purpose (which, as others have mentioned, is pretty barebones in-an-of-itself).

It's a wizard with bonuses to lore and knowledge skills; yet gets to use it's highest stat as a bonus to initiative, which comes out of nowhere; how does it do this?

It's based on lore, therefore skilled prepwork, right? Except it can also change its spells on the fly on a level near to a sorcerer's metamagic, when the entire reason Sorcerers can tweak their spells is that they don't spend as much time memorising them. In fact, all its abilities explicitly forgive a lack of preparation; it can shift damage types, so don't bother wondering what's best, just pick the highest damage ones and then use them all as force. Don't bother picking a spell with an uncommon save, just take banishment and swap it's DC to intelligence. Don't bother thinking about whether you should sacrifice spell space on the off chance you might need feather fall, as a bonus action you can use it anyway! But the level 14 ability - don't bother yourself with those other classes, now you can cherry pick their best high level spell whenever you want. Without preperation, just pull it out of your aaaanurthed arcana.

That's a damn good point regarding lack of preparation.

[SharkForce]

I have a suspicion that it's simply a collection of concepts of abilities, and is never intended to ever be put played 1-20 in a real game.

You'll see these abilities get refined and parsed out to other archetypes. The ability to alter a spells damage type for 1 Sorcery point on Dragon Sorcerer v2, for lack of a better term.

It's just a collection of possible abilities for other archetypes that they want tested.

When you give feedback, rate the abilities, and how appropriate they are for the level at which they're received. Saying "broken would never allow" doesn't actually provide feedback.

my feedback is that most of these abilities should never be allowed in any form on a wizard. it's like providing feedback about a law that says, say... anyone can murder anyone whenever they feel like it. there is no minor tweak that is going to fix that law. the entire concept needs to be scrapped and never brought up ever again.

you cannot fix loremaster by shifting the abilities to other levels, or giving fewer uses of them, or by making minor tweaks. they are simply too absurdly powerful, and as noted, several of them break with the entire theme of the wizard class, which is basically about preparation. these ideas need to go away, and this time they need to stay away (i mean, it isn't like this is the first time this sort of nonsense came up... remember the prestige class that gave you a spell pool or something stupid like that in 3.x that basically turned the wizard into a spontaneous spellcaster with all spells prepared?)

it just needs to go. basically, almost the entire archetype needs to be enshrined as a reminder of what *not* to do.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think Sharkforce is right.

For example, even if you changed Spell Secrets so that it couldn't do Force damage (or other ones that are almost never resisted) and/or only allowed it to be used X times per rest, you're still going to have the problem that this is in no way thematic for a Lore Wizard.

It would be like giving the Diviner proficiency in Heavy Armour and Martial Weapons. Or giving the Evoker +3 to knowledge checks so long as he's holding a crystal ball.

[Herobizkit]

*Gently reminds everyone that, BY DESIGN, on purpose and everything, UA articles are deliberately written with OP/broken abilities with the intent to test them and pare them down later.*

[Sigreid]

The thing for me is that some of the abilities don't feel right on a Lore Wizard.

Spell Secrets and Alchemical Casting both seem like the sort of things that Evokers or Sorcerers should be using. :smallconfused:

I still say if you look at the 3.5 Archmage PRC, you see literally exactly what they were trying to emulate. Whatever you feel about the abilities, it's not completely from out left field with no precedent.

[Dr. Cliché]

I still say if you look at the 3.5 Archmage PRC, you see literally exactly what they were trying to emulate.

And if it was actually called Archmage, I'd have no problem with it (balance notwithstanding).

But they didn't call it Archmage, they called it Lore Mage.

[Sigreid]

And if it was actually called Archmage, I'd have no problem with it (balance notwithstanding).

But they didn't call it Archmage, they called it Lore Mage.

I don't have a problem with any UA. We don't use them in game, with the exception of the latest ranger revision.

[skaddix]

I don't think anyone thinks its brand new. Hard to come up with something brand new considering the Diversity of 3.5 and Pathfinder.

However, honestly Lore Mastery Wizard needs a heavy overall or to be an Epic Option.

[SharkForce]

*Gently reminds everyone that, BY DESIGN, on purpose and everything, UA articles are deliberately written with OP/broken abilities with the intent to test them and pare them down later.*

well, these abilities are generally not suitable for being pared down, they are suitable for being thrown away and never looked at again.

[Vogonjeltz]

I mean, I get it. Everyone (including myself) is super excited with the new Hexblade. It's a very nice Archetype for my favorite Class in the game, namelly the Warlock.

However, everyone seems to be under-reacting to the fact that the Lore Master Wizard just got a Wish-variant ability, usable once per long rest. Wile it does not have the (limited) omnipotance of wish, by doing things no spell can, it does however include all spells any caster can cast at their current level, and when he eventually gains access to 9th level spells, it can duplicate them too (in contrast to Wish, which can only duplicate up to 8th level spells without sever consequences), including Wish itself.

It can't cast bonus action, reaction, or any longer than single action casting time spells. So, very limited, wish.


However, it could mean that, as long as you start casting the spell, you keep the ability untill you cast it.

No, it can't mean that because the rules for casting on PHB 202 state "you must spend your action each turn casting the spell".

If it's not cast before the round is up it stops being available, can't continue to cast, end of story.


Alchemical Casting; Trying to copy metamagic and give some to the Wizard too? I'm not against the idea, but using a 2nd level spell slot to increase any spell's range to one mile is a bit too much... considering the Sorcerer can only increase his spells to 2x range. Limit it to that amound would be logical. It needs nerfing, overall too over-powered.

The costs are substantially higher than metamagic. It would be like having these abilities be limited to 3x a day, except you also lose the ability to cast a spell every time you use them.

That's a very hefty cost for not alot of benefit. So they can cast the spell out to most distances available in a given encounter...so what? I can't even think of a time where the range on a spell actually made a lick of difference.


Except it can also change its spells on the fly on a level near to a sorcerer's metamagic,

Two things wrong here. 1) Sorcerers don't change spells on the fly, and 2) Lore Wizards can change one spell per short rest. Big deal.

TLDR: It's mostly fluffy garbage that's being overrated by a couple histrionic assessments.

[Thurmas]

Lore Master (the level 2 ability) gives to the wizard a logical experteese in Arcana... and History? and Nature and Religion? ok, Arcana should be a given on any Wizard... maybe a chosen knowlage skill of your choice as well would be ok. But a full experteese on 4 skills is too much. AND using his Spellcasting Ability for initiative Rolls? Were they afraid Wizards were not strong enough or somethng? o_O



I don't think anyone has pointed it out yet, but you only get the 'potential' for expertise in 4 skills, since you have to be proficient in them. In my experience, most wizards know at most 1 or 2 of those skills, usually Arcana and History. Most of the time the Wizard is going to have to multiclass to learn the additional skills, or not be proficient in some other useful skills.

[Desamir]

Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of hardcore overestimation of this subclass. Certainly it steps on the Sorcerer's toes somewhat, but from a balance perspective, what exactly about it is broken?

Changing a save once per short rest, is that really more broken than outright forcing a save failure as a Divination Wizard?

How often do you need a 1-mile range on a spell?

[Armok]

Let's say I wanted to adjust the lore master for my game.

I can see a few things I'd change off the bat. First, I'd change the word "force" to "poison" in spell secrets. Because being able to change every spell to force is obviously the superior option with no real incentive to be creative or use the other options.

Next, regarding the second chunk of the ability. I would either cut it entirely, or separate the change options between str/con/dex and int/wis/cha. So spells with those saves could only be shifted between those groups, ie. no int save fireball. Because let's face it, that makes no sense.

I think the only other thing I would change is their final ability. On achieving this level you gain a sort of "mental spellbook" which begins populated with every spell you have in your material spellbook. You require no gold cost to add spells to it, though it does take time as usual while you puzzle out the workings of the spell, and can use it to prepare your spells as well as cast ritual magic. When you see any spell cast by another, you may add the spell to your mental spellbook. (Perhaps tied to a DC that scales with spell level, or by spending time out of combat to ponder the spell.) Spells learned in this way do not have to be wizard spells, but non-wizard spells can only be cast using the final portion of this ability. Once per long rest, you may cast a single spell in your mental spellbook without having prepared it. This spell expends a spell slot as it would normally, and still requires all its components to be used.

Does this sound fair? I really like the lore master, but as it is it's too broken for me to use in good conscience without adjusting it.

[Provo]

I think the Lore Master is more workable with some simple fixes.

Note, these fixes aim to take away the spontaneity of this subclass (as that should belong to a sorcerer) as well as the power.

No fix needed. Yes, expertise in four skills is a lot, but it is four very specific, underused, thematically appropriate skills. As a pure wizard, expertise in all four means no other proficiencies too.

Damage type must be chosen at spell preparation (do you prepare a fireball or an ice ball). Limited to the damage types available to a dragon sorcerer.

The saving throw change must also be chosen at spell prep for one spell, but it affects every casting of said spell.

Mechanically, no fix is needed. Thematically, this needs to be thrown out.

No fix needed.

The character must choose their bonus spell during spell preparation (during a long rest). They can still only cast the spell once. Still a powerful ability, but not the mini Wish it was.

Thoughts? Suggestions for changing Alchemical casting?

[Armok]

I think the Lore Master is more workable with some simple fixes.

Note, these fixes aim to take away the spontaneity of this subclass (as that should belong to a sorcerer) as well as the power.

No fix needed. Yes, expertise in four skills is a lot, but it is four very specific, underused, thematically appropriate skills. As a pure wizard, expertise in all four means no other proficiencies too.

Damage type must be chosen at spell preparation (do you prepare a fireball or an ice ball). Limited to the damage types available to a dragon sorcerer.

The saving throw change must also be chosen at spell prep for one spell, but it affects every casting of said spell.

Mechanically, no fix is needed. Thematically, this needs to be thrown out.

No fix needed.

The character must choose their bonus spell during spell preparation (during a long rest). They can still only cast the spell once. Still a powerful ability, but not the mini Wish it was.

Thoughts? Suggestions for changing Alchemical casting?

I do like tying things to preparation, as that's always felt like a defining feature of the wizard. I don't really see the problem with alchemical casting myself, as it adds a way for the wizard to have an option for metamagic-esque abilities again. And if we're going to say that metamagic is the sorcerer's jam now, at least this way wizard has it as an option if they choose this archetype, whereas any sorcerer can do it regardless of flavor.

I'd maybe rename it to like, augmented casting or something though.

[Sigreid]

I do like tying things to preparation, as that's always felt like a defining feature of the wizard. I don't really see the problem with alchemical casting myself, as it adds a way for the wizard to have an option for metamagic-esque abilities again. And if we're going to say that metamagic is the sorcerer's jam now, at least this way wizard has it as an option if they choose this archetype, whereas any sorcerer can do it regardless of flavor.

I'd maybe rename it to like, augmented casting or something though.

Wizard subclasses already have limited meta magic. The easy example is the Evoker's spell shaping ability.

[Provo]

Wizard subclasses already have limited meta magic. The easy example is the Evoker's spell shaping ability.

Maybe the ability isn't too bad then. It is certainly much more costly than a sorcerers spell casting.

I just want to avoid stepping on the sorcerer's toes since they give up so much for their flexibility (by having so few spells known)

[Sigreid]

Maybe the ability isn't too bad then. It is certainly much more costly than a sorcerers spell casting.

I just want to avoid stepping on the sorcerer's toes since they give up so much for their flexibility (by having so few spells known)

Maybe that's why I'm not as concerned. Starting with Storm Sorc, and carried through last weeks UA it looks like they are moving away from just Meta Magic being their defining trait to their defining trait being tied to their unique magical power source. I think that's a good change in philosophy myself.

[Deleted]

It's broke. It's UA. It's going back in the "Must try harder" pile. People want to discuss things that can actually be done and used more realistically in a game.

Broke and bashes the sorcerer over the head with the Megaton Hammer before burning the sorcerer's body with the Fire Rod.

[ZZTRaider]

It can't cast bonus action, reaction, or any longer than single action casting time spells. So, very limited, wish.
It can literally cast Wish. Sure, it's Limited Wish when you get it at 14, but it eventually becomes strictly better than Wish as it can do anything Wish can do AND cast other 9th level spells.


The costs are substantially higher than metamagic. It would be like having these abilities be limited to 3x a day, except you also lose the ability to cast a spell every time you use them.

That's a very hefty cost for not alot of benefit. So they can cast the spell out to most distances available in a given encounter...so what? I can't even think of a time where the range on a spell actually made a lick of difference.
A Sorcerer can convert a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell slot into 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points, respectively. Thus, converting a spell slot for a metamagic-like effect effectively makes the Lore Master's abilities cost 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points.

Adding 2d10 force damage will, on average, be a larger increase than an Empowered Spell. It's also an increase that applies even if you rolled well, can take you over the spell's normal maximum damage, and has no risk of reducing your damage. On multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray, it applies multiple times as long as you select different targets, while Empowered Spell would only affect up to 5 dice worth. The Lore Master pays the same 1 effective sorcery point that the Sorcerer plays for Empowered Spell. Lore Master wins on all counts here.

Increasing a spell's range to 1 mile is complete overkill for the most part, sure, but changing a 30 foot range spell to hit something 100 feet away could make all the difference. A Sorcerer using Distant Spell could only take that same 30-foot range spell and double it to 60 feet; assuming they use 30 feet of movement, they're still 10 feet out of range of a target that started 100 feet away that the Lore Master easily hits without moving. The Lore Master effectively pays 1 sorcery point more than the Sorcerer does, so perhaps it is balanced cost-wise in the practical case. That does not change that the Lore Master does not pay the same opportunity cost that the Sorcerer does (potentially sacrificing Twin or Quicken spell to pick up Distant) and that it thematically infringes upon the Sorcerer's metamagic shtick.

Increasing the DC of a spell by 2 is just a little bit worse on average than imposing disadvantage on the save like a Sorcerer's Heightened Spell does. In the case of a lot of spells, yes, Heightened Spell does end up being better. However, there are two major cases where the Lore Master clearly wins out:
Heightened Spell only affects a single target. Any AOE spell with a saving throw will benefit more from the Lore Master's ability than from Heightened Spell.
Heightened Spell only affects the first saving throw made. Any spell that involves multiple saves, such as Banishment or Hold Monster, benefit significantly from a +2 to the DC of all the saves involved.
Both abilities have the same effective 3 sorcery point cost, so advantage goes to the Lore Master.

On top of all of that, remember that a Wizard can regain some of these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots on a short rest. Assuming two short rest per day, the Wizard will gain as many spell slots to use towards the Lore Master's "metamagic" as a Sorcerer has sorcery points at the start of the day. Both have the option of sacrificing additional spell slots to keep going.

I honestly don't see how you can claim that this ability isn't better than metamagic.

[Provo]

It can literally cast Wish. Sure, it's Limited Wish when you get it at 14, but it eventually becomes strictly better than Wish as it can do anything Wish can do AND cast other 9th level spells.


A Sorcerer can convert a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell slot into 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points, respectively. Thus, converting a spell slot for a metamagic-like effect effectively makes the Lore Master's abilities cost 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points.

Adding 2d10 force damage will, on average, be a larger increase than an Empowered Spell. It's also an increase that applies even if you rolled well, can take you over the spell's normal maximum damage, and has no risk of reducing your damage. On multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray, it applies multiple times as long as you select different targets, while Empowered Spell would only affect up to 5 dice worth. The Lore Master pays the same 1 effective sorcery point that the Sorcerer plays for Empowered Spell. Lore Master wins on all counts here.

Increasing a spell's range to 1 mile is complete overkill for the most part, sure, but changing a 30 foot range spell to hit something 100 feet away could make all the difference. A Sorcerer using Distant Spell could only take that same 30-foot range spell and double it to 60 feet; assuming they use 30 feet of movement, they're still 10 feet out of range of a target that started 100 feet away that the Lore Master easily hits without moving. The Lore Master effectively pays 1 sorcery point more than the Sorcerer does, so perhaps it is balanced cost-wise in the practical case. That does not change that the Lore Master does not pay the same opportunity cost that the Sorcerer does (potentially sacrificing Twin or Quicken spell to pick up Distant) and that it thematically infringes upon the Sorcerer's metamagic shtick.

Increasing the DC of a spell by 2 is just a little bit worse on average than imposing disadvantage on the save like a Sorcerer's Heightened Spell does. In the case of a lot of spells, yes, Heightened Spell does end up being better. However, there are two major cases where the Lore Master clearly wins out:
Heightened Spell only affects a single target. Any AOE spell with a saving throw will benefit more from the Lore Master's ability than from Heightened Spell.
Heightened Spell only affects the first saving throw made. Any spell that involves multiple saves, such as Banishment or Hold Monster, benefit significantly from a +2 to the DC of all the saves involved.
Both abilities have the same effective 3 sorcery point cost, so advantage goes to the Lore Master.

On top of all of that, remember that a Wizard can regain some of these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots on a short rest. Assuming two short rest per day, the Wizard will gain as many spell slots to use towards the Lore Master's "metamagic" as a Sorcerer has sorcery points at the start of the day. Both have the option of sacrificing additional spell slots to keep going.

I honestly don't see how you can claim that this ability isn't better than metamagic.

To counter your point, almost nobody would say that first, second, and third level spells are worth 1, 2, and 3 points respectively. As a sorcerer, you trade spells away at a loss. You would be better served to use the cost of trading points into a spell (which most people do when they try to numerically define the value of a spell slot). In such a case, sorcerer is the clear winner.

[ZZTRaider]

To counter your point, almost nobody would say that first, second, and third level spells are worth 1, 2, and 3 points respectively. As a sorcerer, you trade spells away at a loss. You would be better served to use the cost of trading points into a spell (which most people do when they try to numerically define the value of a spell slot). In such a case, sorcerer is the clear winner.

Well, a level 20 Wizard can recover 20 spell levels over two short rests. Let's pretend they're actually getting 20 "wizardry points" for a moment. The wizard has the option of converting them into either these metamagic effects or spell slots at a 1:1 ratio of spell levels.

Those 20 "wizardry points" are clearly better than sorcery points. The metamagic effects you can spend them on are more effective than the Sorcerer's equivalents and they can be converted into spell slots far more efficiently. If either needs to go beyond their base 20 points for metamagic effects, the Sorcerer needs to spend a bonus action to convert a spell slot, while the Wizard just does the same for free as part of casting a spell.

I think the Lore Master is still getting the better end of the deal, here.

EDIT: As I mention two posts down, I misread Arcane Recovery. The Wizard only ends up with 10 "wizardry points", but those still convert pretty efficiently into spell slots -- 10 spell levels compared to the sorcerer's 14.

[Desamir]

Well, a level 20 Wizard can recover 20 spell levels over two short rests. Let's pretend they're actually getting 20 "wizardry points" for a moment. The wizard has the option of converting them into either these metamagic effects or spell slots at a 1:1 ratio of spell levels.

From where is he recovering 20 spell levels?

[ZZTRaider]

From where is he recovering 20 spell levels?

Ah, you're right, I did misread Arcane Recovery; it's once per day as part of a short rest. So only 10 spell levels. My mistake.

That does bring it a bit closer, but I think the Lore Wizard is still ahead overall. If we're converting the Sorcerer's sorcery points into spell slots to compare, the most they can recover is 14 spell levels, so only barely ahead in that respect.

[Sigreid]

Ah, you're right, I did misread Arcane Recovery; it's once per day as part of a short rest. So only 10 spell levels. My mistake.

That does bring it a bit closer, but I think the Lore Wizard is still ahead overall. If we're converting the Sorcerer's sorcery points into spell slots to compare, the most they can recover is 14 spell levels, so only barely ahead in that respect.

If you want to blow up the spell point comparison with Sorc, look no further than spell mastery and signature spell.

[Deathtongue]

I see a lot of talk about fixing some of the mechanical problems (which I think are overblown as long as people are allowed to play the Diviner and Theurge) but few people have answered the more fundamental question of:

Why does this class need to exist?

Just let it die, fam. Even if you did bring down the power, you're still left with the fact that it's just clogging conceptual space.

[Sigreid]

I see a lot of talk about fixing some of the mechanical problems (which I think are overblown as long as people are allowed to play the Diviner and Theurge) but few people have answered the more fundamental question of:

Why does this class need to exist?

Just let it die, fam. Even if you did bring down the power, you're still left with the fact that it's just clogging conceptual space.

I like the concept, and I consider Theurge way more busted.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Conceptual Space Clogger is the name of my homebrew base class.

[ZZTRaider]

I like the concept, and I consider Theurge way more busted.

I like the concept of a Lore Master wizard, but I don't feel like this archetype really fits that, other than the expertise to knowledge skills. If anything, I feel like the archetype would fit better as an equivalent to Pathfinder's Arcane Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline/).

There are some minor changes that could help, though. If the list of elements were pared down a bit (basically, to match the element options of a Draconic Sorcerer), I wouldn't mind having the ability for a wizard to switch damage types when copying a spell into their spellbook. I think that'd be pretty thematic.

[MrStabby]

So I get why people are comparing the class to the diviner, but i dont think it is a good idea.

Firstly the divination level 2 ability is arguably the best archetype ability of any class. Saying that something is not overpowered because you compare it to the best of the best doesn't carry a huge amount of weight.

Secondly - what else does the divination wizard get that you really value? Some recovered spells - less than the value of the number of divination spells you can usefully cast in a day anyway. Whereas the lore wizard gets a lot of other powerful abilities. The lore wizard gets another very powerful ability even as part of the same level, it even gets another awesome ability under the same heading. One ability is awesome, the overall effect of all of them is overwhelming.

Thirdly, I think people overrate the divination power. In peoples analyses it seems like they are able to reliably roll 1-3 on both dice every time. Sure you can almost always be certain of either a hit of a spell save failure using this feature, what you can't be sure of is that same effect on the enemies where you really want to make it matter. Low level stuff sure - but that 9? Is that enough to make the boss monster fail their save? How about that 14? Yeah probably you score a hit with a spell rather than rolling... I would rather force a save failure than force a hit.

Fourthly, the lore wizard is probably able to use their ability more times per day than the divination wizard. Somewhat compensated by the latter being able to use theirs twice in one fight, as well as for other purposes so I wouldn't make quite so much of this one.

[skaddix]

I like the concept, and I consider Theurge way more busted.

The only thing you lose picking Theurge as compared to a Cleric is....Weapon and Armor Proficiencies right? Besides that you get to out Cleric the Cleric.

Yeah the Sorcerer has to choose between using their main class Feature and getting Spells Back.

Meanwhile the Lore Mastery gets all his first level slots back once he reaches level 8. And even more extra spells with the built in Wizard Features. Plus Master of Magic.

[GraakosGraakos]

The problem is Loremaster is a 3.PF wizard in a 5e world, making them overwhelmingly powerful comparatively.

[Provo]

I see a lot of talk about fixing some of the mechanical problems (which I think are overblown as long as people are allowed to play the Diviner and Theurge) but few people have answered the more fundamental question of:

Why does this class need to exist?

Just let it die, fam. Even if you did bring down the power, you're still left with the fact that it's just clogging conceptual space.

I like the concept of a generalist wizard.

I REALLY like a wizard with expertise in arcana, and I think it is necessary to be able to have this without multi-classing.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of hardcore overestimation of this subclass. Certainly it steps on the Sorcerer's toes somewhat, but from a balance perspective, what exactly about it is broken?

Changing a save once per short rest, is that really more broken than outright forcing a save failure as a Divination Wizard?

How often do you need a 1-mile range on a spell?

portent changes 1 roll for 1 character.

changing the type of save changes the nature of most rolls related to that spell for all targets.

so yes, it really is more broken.

(also, the diviner's other abilities aren't anywhere near as good as the loremaster's other abilities).


Maybe that's why I'm not as concerned. Starting with Storm Sorc, and carried through last weeks UA it looks like they are moving away from just Meta Magic being their defining trait to their defining trait being tied to their unique magical power source. I think that's a good change in philosophy myself.

they can't. they're already stuck. if they push all that into the new subclasses, the old subclasses become crap comparatively.

now, should they have done this when they first published the PHB for those classes? absolutely. they 100% should have done that. but they didn't. they pushed everything into metamagic and left no room for the subclasses to really pop. and now we have a "draconic" subclass that doesn't do much of anything that a dragon does. you don't have a breath weapon. you're not big, or strong, or really all that tough. you don't get anything like lair abilities, you never become anything like a legendary monster, your level of threat in melee combat remains a huge joke, and you're actually incentivized to build dexterity over strength. on a sorcerer that advertises itself as being like a dragon.

but we're stuck with it. anything that goes dramatically beyond the power budget of the draconic and wild sorcerers is making those subclasses need to be reworked.

remember, the original storm sorcerer UA had more stuff in it as well. just because the UA tries to make the subclass relevant, doesn't mean the final version will have any more room in the subclass power budget than was there before.


(note: i understand that actually becoming like a dragon would not necessarily appeal to everyone. that's fine. they should have included more origins as far as i'm concerned in the PHB... a lot of people already don't like wild magic, so they kinda needed at least one other option that was a lot more flexible, and the draconic sorcerer really shouldn't have been the only other option as a result. rather, the draconic sorcerer should have been designed to feel like you're a freaking dragon, rather than just being a generic sorcerer who gets free mage armour and a bit of bonus damage on certain spells that are not actually breath weapons. and then they should have had a third origin that has no clear explanation for why you're a sorcerer, so that people could pick that as the "generic" option).

[skaddix]

Lore Master lets me change what a spell saves against which means I don't just affect it for one monster. I can change it for every target which is flat better even if I don't get to use it as much as portent. Granted it doesn't help your teammates directly

[Sigreid]

portent changes 1 roll for 1 character.

changing the type of save changes the nature of most rolls related to that spell for all targets.

so yes, it really is more broken.

(also, the diviner's other abilities aren't anywhere near as good as the loremaster's other abilities).



they can't. they're already stuck. if they push all that into the new subclasses, the old subclasses become crap comparatively.

now, should they have done this when they first published the PHB for those classes? absolutely. they 100% should have done that. but they didn't. they pushed everything into metamagic and left no room for the subclasses to really pop. and now we have a "draconic" subclass that doesn't do much of anything that a dragon does. you don't have a breath weapon. you're not big, or strong, or really all that tough. you don't get anything like lair abilities, you never become anything like a legendary monster, your level of threat in melee combat remains a huge joke, and you're actually incentivized to build dexterity over strength. on a sorcerer that advertises itself as being like a dragon.

but we're stuck with it. anything that goes dramatically beyond the power budget of the draconic and wild sorcerers is making those subclasses need to be reworked.

remember, the original storm sorcerer UA had more stuff in it as well. just because the UA tries to make the subclass relevant, doesn't mean the final version will have any more room in the subclass power budget than was there before.


(note: i understand that actually becoming like a dragon would not necessarily appeal to everyone. that's fine. they should have included more origins as far as i'm concerned in the PHB... a lot of people already don't like wild magic, so they kinda needed at least one other option that was a lot more flexible, and the draconic sorcerer really shouldn't have been the only other option as a result. rather, the draconic sorcerer should have been designed to feel like you're a freaking dragon, rather than just being a generic sorcerer who gets free mage armour and a bit of bonus damage on certain spells that are not actually breath weapons. and then they should have had a third origin that has no clear explanation for why you're a sorcerer, so that people could pick that as the "generic" option).

Nothing stopping them from releasing an official update to the Sorcerer.

[Vogonjeltz]

It can literally cast Wish. Sure, it's Limited Wish when you get it at 14, but it eventually becomes strictly better than Wish as it can do anything Wish can do AND cast other 9th level spells.


A Sorcerer can convert a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell slot into 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points, respectively. Thus, converting a spell slot for a metamagic-like effect effectively makes the Lore Master's abilities cost 1, 2, or 3 sorcery points.

Adding 2d10 force damage will, on average, be a larger increase than an Empowered Spell. It's also an increase that applies even if you rolled well, can take you over the spell's normal maximum damage, and has no risk of reducing your damage. On multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray, it applies multiple times as long as you select different targets, while Empowered Spell would only affect up to 5 dice worth. The Lore Master pays the same 1 effective sorcery point that the Sorcerer plays for Empowered Spell. Lore Master wins on all counts here.

Increasing a spell's range to 1 mile is complete overkill for the most part, sure, but changing a 30 foot range spell to hit something 100 feet away could make all the difference. A Sorcerer using Distant Spell could only take that same 30-foot range spell and double it to 60 feet; assuming they use 30 feet of movement, they're still 10 feet out of range of a target that started 100 feet away that the Lore Master easily hits without moving. The Lore Master effectively pays 1 sorcery point more than the Sorcerer does, so perhaps it is balanced cost-wise in the practical case. That does not change that the Lore Master does not pay the same opportunity cost that the Sorcerer does (potentially sacrificing Twin or Quicken spell to pick up Distant) and that it thematically infringes upon the Sorcerer's metamagic shtick.

Increasing the DC of a spell by 2 is just a little bit worse on average than imposing disadvantage on the save like a Sorcerer's Heightened Spell does. In the case of a lot of spells, yes, Heightened Spell does end up being better. However, there are two major cases where the Lore Master clearly wins out:
Heightened Spell only affects a single target. Any AOE spell with a saving throw will benefit more from the Lore Master's ability than from Heightened Spell.
Heightened Spell only affects the first saving throw made. Any spell that involves multiple saves, such as Banishment or Hold Monster, benefit significantly from a +2 to the DC of all the saves involved.
Both abilities have the same effective 3 sorcery point cost, so advantage goes to the Lore Master.

On top of all of that, remember that a Wizard can regain some of these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell slots on a short rest. Assuming two short rest per day, the Wizard will gain as many spell slots to use towards the Lore Master's "metamagic" as a Sorcerer has sorcery points at the start of the day. Both have the option of sacrificing additional spell slots to keep going.

I honestly don't see how you can claim that this ability isn't better than metamagic.

I favor extended spell, for 1 point it effectively nets a free casting, doubling your higher level spell slots. (Sunbeam, for example).

[skaddix]

Yeah the Sorcerer maintains the advantage in Utility I suppose.

Lore Mastery Wizard is better using AOE.

[Vaz]

Nothing stopping them from releasing an official update to the Sorcerer.

Nothing has stopped them from updating sorcerer to be not **** for the last 2 years either.

[Sigreid]

Nothing has stopped them from updating sorcerer to be not **** for the last 2 years either.

What ever they decide to do, it is clear that they are moving much more cautiously than they have in past editions. I find this encouraging.

[Saeviomage]

1. I don't know why it's called a loremaster: the 3.5 Loremaster ended up getting bardic knowledge, some extra skills, some extra languages, some stat boosts, a couple of low level spell slots and some castings of mid level divinations. It's already covered by a diviner who spends his high rolls on knowledge checks.

2. Most of the other wizard schools let you extend your capabilities above and beyond your spell slots, with the exception of the evoker (which is why I dislike the evoker). Loremaster just makes you burn up your spells faster than the baseline. I'd expect that if your DM is taxing resources over a day, the loremaster will end up slinging cantrips a lot.

Are the spell swap abilities good? I guess. How many times do you actually go "well, if only I knew spell X instead of these 15 spells that I prepared plus the 17 or so rituals that I know"?

And how much does a wizard actually gain from a one-shot casting off of some other classes list?

It seems like the biggest bones of contention end up being swapping spell elements and changing saves 3 times per day.

Is it good? I guess. Is it broken? Compared with some of the stuff the other specialists get, it doesn't feel like it.

[SharkForce]

Nothing stopping them from releasing an official update to the Sorcerer.

nothing hinting at that as a possibility either. it isn't like with ranger, where there is widespread dissatisfaction and they've openly acknowledged they've been working on a new version. none of these new sorcerer subclasses have been presented in the context of a sorcerer rework.

much as i might not like it, from all i can see WotC is perfectly happy with where the sorcerer is. or at the very least, they have a lot of other stuff that is higher on their priority list.

[skaddix]

They had at least one part of the solution. Give the Sorcerer some thematic bonus spells known.
You can pick any Sorcerer and being missing core spells that fit with the theme.

Beyond that there is more metamagic options and getting to pick more options.

Also either give more SP, let some metamagics be free or decouple spell slot recovery or give more spell slots. I mean the signature advantage of the Sorcerer was in the past more Spell Slot. Now thanks to Arcane Recovery, Signature Spells and the like you don't beat the Wizard in Spells Known, Spells Slots and you might just break even in Spell Modification.

Honestly slight variants would be good fixes to the Warlock. Yeah Yeah I know short rest and Eldritch Blast but come on 2 spells quarter casters get more and you need 3 Short Rest to ek out one more then they get at the lower levels. More Free Invocations or More Points to Spend Period. You spend too many points tricking out Eldritich Blast or being competent in Melee to enjoy the more fun options. Suppose getting those Patron Spells for Free would be nice as well. Or I don't know one free cast at each level is free per day.

The Wizards get the most spells known and now they are getting metamagic just not fair. This is the 2nd Wizard Subclass to out do the original. First was Mystic Theurge looting the Cleric.

The Ranger needed help because you were better off going Fighter, Warlock or Bard if you wanted to snipe things from range.

[Quintessence]

It is inferior to diviner, so I don't know why people are talking about how it is "broken" LOL

[LudicSavant]

Ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore the broken wizard subclass that punches the sorcerer's puppy in the gut and laughs.

So, just about every Wizard subclass? :smallwink:

[skaddix]

Not really better at helping your friends sure. Better at bodying villains not so much because Lore Master affects every enemy in the AOE. Portent is limited to a single foe.

Lore Master lets you guarantee Fails Essentially and Guarantee Damage

[MrStabby]

I think it worth reiterating ZZTRaider's point on hold person. If you make it a Str or a Dex save then if the target fails it will not be free until the spell ends. Furthermore any spell can be made dex or str save and you can force the enemy to fail it.

Likewise if your party monk stuns any target then you can be certain that any spell you would wish to cast on that target would have its save failed.

Pushing saves into stats that you can make enemies automatically fail is pretty strong. Even slightly weaker benefits like making the save for a restrained enemy be dexterity is pretty amazing.

[djreynolds]

Do they automatically fail the spell?

[MrStabby]

Do they automatically fail the spell?

Yes. A creature paralysed or stunned fails all dex/str saving throws and a restrained creature has disadvantage on dex saving throws.

[djreynolds]

Now the spell with the changed DC, that spell is good all day.... you have to wait a day to change out spells?

You can cast say, a charisma save DC based hold person... all day?

But if you wanted to target an intelligence save DC based hold person, you'd have to wait til tomorrow?

[Arkhios]

I feel people are a bit too harsh on the balance issue. I mean, I agree some of the abilites of Lore Master are pretty damn powerful. But think about this: all of these abilities set the direction for the Lore Master. And overall, I like the direction, but not as much the means as they are now. So, once we give them feedback and I'm sure there'll be quite a bit of negative feedback on the balance. But that's the entire point of these articles, isn't it? They introduce their new ideas to the community, the community breaks them apart and hands them back, until they reassemble them as likely more balanced than before.

I don't mind if the rest of the features got nerfed, as long as Spell Secrets remains more or less like it is, because it's the one ability I've waited for wizards (and maybe other casters as well) since 5th edition was published. In D&D Next playtest there was a similar ability (I think it was a feat at least in some point) that let you change the spell's damage type. Ok, maybe letting you to change damage type to (but not from) force might be a bit much, but others are fine, I think.

[MrStabby]

I feel people are a bit too harsh on the balance issue. I mean, I agree some of the abilites of Lore Master are pretty damn powerful. But think about this: all of these abilities set the direction for the Lore Master. And overall, I like the direction, but not as much the means as they are now. So, once we give them feedback and I'm sure there'll be quite a bit of negative feedback on the balance. But that's the entire point of these articles, isn't it? They introduce their new ideas to the community, the community breaks them apart and hands them back, until they reassemble them as likely more balanced than before.

I don't mind if the rest of the features got nerfed, as long as Spell Secrets remains more or less like it is, because it's the one ability I've waited for wizards (and maybe other casters as well) since 5th edition was published. In D&D Next playtest there was a similar ability (I think it was a feat at least in some point) that let you change the spell's damage type. Ok, maybe letting you to change damage type to (but not from) force might be a bit much, but others are fine, I think.


I think I would be happy with the archetype as long as they took out the elements better catered to in other classes. There are enough ways to get expertise in knowledge skills; you diminish how special those classes are if you let wizards have it as well. Changing spells is kind of the sorcerer thing. Better, more versatile versions of that should be replaced by something else. Master of magic is a more versatile magical secrets - a feature better left to the bard. Getting a spell from another list is kind of what sets the bard apart. Lets let the bard remain special in its way as well.

That leaves the level 10 prodigious memory ability. This seems fine and reasonable. I would be OK with this staying. Replace all the other abilities with something new, rather than just cherry picking the most iconic parts of other classes and sticking them all on one archetype.

[Theodoxus]

I like the concept of a generalist wizard.

I REALLY like a wizard with expertise in arcana, and I think it is necessary to be able to have this without multi-classing.

Me too - it's why every arcane caster I've ever played has taken a single Knowledge cleric level.

Expertise in 4 blows Knowledge away... a domain expressly granted by the gods who presumably are all knowing all seeing blah blah blah.

Lore would definitely need to cut down to two at a minimum (you could still grab a level in cleric to get all 4 again...)

I do think the metamagic-esque feel of Lore is going in the wrong direction, though it's a pretty narrow gap to thread successfully. Too much emphasis on knowledge steps on the cleric domain's toes. Too much emphasis on elemental manipulation (as it currently does) steps on Evocation's toes. Too much emphasis on delving secrets steps on Divination's toes...

1) I think Spell Secrets should be a Sorc metamagic. Toss out Force, Necrotic and Radiant though.
2) Prodigious Memory should be part of the Keen Mind feat - an option "Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20 - OR - As a bonus action, you can replace one spell you have prepared with another spell from your spellbook. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long or short rest."
3) Master of Magic is thematically pretty good. Probably could be toned down - I like the concept of "has to be a spell you've seen cast" - no pulling Earthquake out of your butt if you haven't seen it cast - though keeping track of what spells you've actually witnessed in your career is problematic... But it fits the generalist theme and replicates Lesser Wish quite well. I think, along the lines of Lesser Wish, I'd limit it to 7th level spells. That's decent.

As for what to replace the rest? MoM is about the only ability that I think should be kept (with the changes noted above). But perhaps instead, just create a Lesser Wish spell... at 7th level, Wizard only - only replicates spells of 6th or lower - no additional abilities. (Though I guess "Anyspell" works as a name too).

ANYSPELL (LESSER WISH?)
7th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

Anyspell allows you to duplicate any spell from any caster's spell list of 6th level or lower. If the spell isn’t a wizard spell, it counts as a wizard spell when you cast it. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components or casting time. The spell simply takes effect.

[MrStabby]

Anyspell could work for me if toned down just a little more. 5th level or below spells puts it in line with the break the game expects between Low and High level spells. It also helps keep it a little more distinct from the bard Magical Secrets ability - after all we wouldn't expect all types of knowledge and casting skill to be learned from books.

Alternatively I think it might be cool if Anyspell concept still kept the casting stat of the original. You can cast those spells but you might not be very good at it, as you only learned it from books rather than living it.

[Shining Wrath]

Setting aside the dragons and empyreans with their legendary resistance, here's the save to attack for the CR17+ monsters listed in the 5e SRD (http://5e.d20srd.org/indexes/monsters.htm).

Tarrasque: Dex (+0)
Kraken: Cha (+3)
Solar: Dex (+5)
Balor: Dex (+2)
Pit Fiend: Int (+4)
Androsphinx: Str (+6) or Cha (+6)

If we're talking a high level Lore Master (save DC 18 or 19), even the Androsphinx can be forced to roll a 12 or 13 to save against the Save or Suck spell. Being able to take down the Tarrasque, Kraken, and Balor with high probability (save roll of 15 or more) with a single spell seems pretty broken.

[FunSize]

Personally I find it ridiculously OP and would not allow it in any games I run.

[GraakosGraakos]

It is inferior to diviner, so I don't know why people are talking about how it is "broken" LOL

I have to imagine you're joking. It can cast spells at a mile distance. It can "Metamagic" spells to do more damage. It can change saving throws once a rest. It can freely change element types. It has expertise in all knowledge rolls. And once a long rest it gets Limited Wish.

Portent is Potent. But Loremaster continues the 3.PF tradition of a wizard replacing whole classes with its abilities.

[Spellbreaker26]

But Loremaster continues the 3.PF tradition of a wizard replacing whole classes with its abilities.

This ^.

This is the killer. Same with the Theurgist. (explicitly gets subclass abilities earlier than the subclass.) Even if it was otherwise balanced, that smacks of bad design to me. The diviner, for all its power , is not stepping on any other class's toes. But Loremaster robs Sorcerer and Bard and Theurgist robs Cleric.

The Eldritch Knight is limited enough that it takes wizard related abilities and makes them part of the fighter class. It is not a better wizard than the wizard. Same for the Arcane Trickster.
The War Cleric is not a better fighter than the fighter, especially after level 5. The shadow monk is not better than the rogue, etc etc. They can fulfil similar roles, but they do not rob.

[SharkForce]

complaining about other classes stealing the bard's thing just smacks of hypocrisy. stealing other class's things is what the bard is all about. of course other classes are going to steal stuff from the bard... the bard does everything, and stole from everyone else in the first place.

[Drackolus]

I could see it having an increased ability to learn spells (like extra spells on levelup or the half-off on every wizard spell), able to learn some cross-list spells, even memorize more (I still think it's odd that Clerics have so many more spells memorized at a time than wizards.) giving them a bonus to a specific kind of spell is specialization. If it's getting damage boosts, it becomes the "other evoker."

I'm a crazy dm that allows pretty lenient homebrew and we even run a gestalt system I wrote up, and even I won't allow the loremaster.

[Byke]

It is inferior to diviner, so I don't know why people are talking about how it is "broken" LOL

Guess you haven't run into many creatures with legendary resistance, who cares if you replace his roll with a "1" he still makes his save. At higher level Portent falls off in power.

[KorvinStarmast]

What I dislike about Loremaster is that an NPC Loremaster can pick your dump stat (and you all shouted INT!) and make you save against EVERYTHING based on that.

Once you change a saving throw in this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Bad idea: long rest, if at all. Too much "easy button" in this idea all around.

Spell Secret's ability to vary damage type I like better. What I'd rather see is that you have to limit this: you are stuck with that until you finish a short or long rest, or something like that.
Example: cast fireball, but change it to radiant damage. You need to finish a short (long?) rest to return to base damage type. Short might be sufficient.

Spell secrets has two neat features, and it only needs one.

I like the "use INT for initiative" since Wizards are brain people. Quick wits are a good thing.

I like alchemical casting's graduated cost/benefit idea, though it may need a tweak or two or may need to cost more.

Master of Magic

This need to be rolled back by forcing you to first find, and record in your spell book, that spell from another class ... perhaps via scroll?

Something. Just pull Earthquake out of your backside is ... metagaming at the best.

[skaddix]

Guess you haven't run into many creatures with legendary resistance, who cares if you replace his roll with a "1" he still makes his save. At higher level Portent falls off in power.

There is that. The Diviner can make a case against 1 Foe and its better helping friends who fail. But the more foes you add the better Lore Master gets in comparison congrats you can replace 1 die per action. Meanwhile Lore Master can guarantee as many MOBs in the AOE Fail. Assuming the MOBs are the same type.

[Vogonjeltz]

Nothing has stopped them from updating sorcerer to be not **** for the last 2 years either.

This is overly dramatic, there's nothing in particular that's wrong with the Sorcerer.

Wizards get more spell selection (10 more spells memorized than Sorcerers have known, grounded by having to study a book to change them, whereas Sorcerers don't have to study anything), Sorcerers get better spells (metamagic options) and can cast them with a tad more frequency or even change their available spell slots on the fly (flexible casting).

You don't pick a Sorcerer for breadth of knowledge, you pick them for vastly more flexibility in dire straits.

And, if you're simply comparing archetypes, the Wild Magic Sorcerer has Bend Luck and can spend 2 sorcery points to apply a 2.5 (average) penalty (or bonus) to the saving throw (or ability check, or attack roll!) of another creature. Which is...flat out better (cheaper in slot value cost and more effective) than the Lore Wizard's ability to only increase spell DC at that same level. And it stacks with the Heightened Spell Metamagic.


I have to imagine you're joking. It can cast spells at a mile distance. It can "Metamagic" spells to do more damage. It can change saving throws once a rest. It can freely change element types. It has expertise in all knowledge rolls. And once a long rest it gets Limited Wish.

Portent is Potent. But Loremaster continues the 3.PF tradition of a wizard replacing whole classes with its abilities.

Diviner seems plainly better on a variety of levels:
1) Portent is vastly superior to Spell Secrets (being able to change a saving throw doesn't mean nearly as much as simply forcing a failure, not to mention Portent works on attack, saving throw, and ability check rolls, so it's way more flexible).
2) Expert Divination nets more spell slots, Alchemical Casting just burns them. The Lore Wizard won't be able to cast as many spells throughout the day. Yes, they get some slight improvements (11 damage average per target is only useful if it's an AoE; The distance bonus is niche as pretty much all encounters occur in normal spell range anyway; the DC increase would be good, but it's so damn costly; only really of value if you absolutely must make them fail the save and you're burning the slot for a higher level spell...in which case you'd be better off with portent)
3) Third Eye gives actual Exploration and Combat utility.

Prodigious memory is 'ok', but since Wizards can memorize about 25 spells, how is 1 more worth their 10th level archetype feature? It's not, it's a drop in the bucket.
Master of Magic is decently good performing as a limited wish (which characters can't abuse) so it's a worthy 14th level feature. Not as interesting as the other archetype features, but reasonable.


This ^.

This is the killer. Same with the Theurgist. (explicitly gets subclass abilities earlier than the subclass.) Even if it was otherwise balanced, that smacks of bad design to me. The diviner, for all its power , is not stepping on any other class's toes. But Loremaster robs Sorcerer and Bard and Theurgist robs Cleric.

The Eldritch Knight is limited enough that it takes wizard related abilities and makes them part of the fighter class. It is not a better wizard than the wizard. Same for the Arcane Trickster.
The War Cleric is not a better fighter than the fighter, especially after level 5. The shadow monk is not better than the rogue, etc etc. They can fulfil similar roles, but they do not rob.

Define your view on rob if it doesn't mean to have similarly themed abilities? The Alchemical Casting is plainly inferior to the Sorcerer abilities, and compares unfavorably to the Wild Magic archetype abilities. They're of a vaguely similar nature, but they're just not as good (nor as stackable).

Are you thinking that the capstone treads on magical secrets? I mean, it's just a second casting of Wish (limited only to spells, and only to those spells that have a single action cast time). Which already exists.


Do they automatically fail the spell?

No, this doesn't check out.

Spell Secrets:
"When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the
spell requires a saving throw, you can change the
saving throw from one ability score to another of
your choice. Once you change a saving throw in
this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a
short or long rest."

That only applies to the saving throw; Hold Person allows the subject to break out of it on another saving throw (meaning not the one that Spell Secrets applies to)
"the target can make another Wisdom saving throw" (PHB 251). It can't possibly apply to two different saving throws from a single spell, only the first one from when you cast the spell, any future saving throws would be the normal save.

It might RAI that it's all saving throws relating to a spell, but RAW it's just the initial save.


Guess you haven't run into many creatures with legendary resistance, who cares if you replace his roll with a "1" he still makes his save. At higher level Portent falls off in power.

This applies to the Lore Wizard equally, more so in that they're going to have fewer spell slots with which to try and soak those legendary resists.

[skaddix]

Sorcerers really cant cast more frequently. Considering Wizards get Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery and Signature Spells. Theoretically it might be possible but only if a Sorcerer didn't use their main class feature at all. Functionally they are always going to have less slots. They have less spell known and now Lore Wizard gets to infringe on metamagic.

Your not going to need more spell slots if you always have the right damage type and your foes die much faster.

Again you seem unable to comprehend a simple point...the Lore Wizard applies its mods to everything hit in the AOE. Not 1 creature all of them if they are in the AOE. So yeah Bend Luck or Portent might cause one foe to fail at a time. But a Lore Wizard can screw a dozen at the same time.

[Dudu]

Spell Secrets is balanced, flavorfull, and very tactical. I like it a lot.

That one cracked me up. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Anyway, Lore Wizard is the first subclass I would outright ban.
Cookie filled to the burst, Spell Secrets is just the best cookie.

And I think no one ignored the Lore Wizard. Maybe I was one of the few who focused on him rather than Warlock, but that's probably because I'm a wizard player much more than a warlock one.

[skaddix]

Wasn't Ignored OP was the quickly agreed upon Consensus will be just fine pure or with a 2 Lvl Dip into Warlock for Eldritch Blast. Or I guess 2 into Stone, might as well only need 2 stats, Sack DEX and STR.

[Sariel Vailo]

actually i was excited for this. i love wizard and this gave me my sherlock,clever creative wizard whos better than you elewen a new sub class choice.bladesinger,universalist Mfov.and ua loremaster

[ZZTRaider]

No, this doesn't check out.

Spell Secrets:
"When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the
spell requires a saving throw, you can change the
saving throw from one ability score to another of
your choice. Once you change a saving throw in
this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a
short or long rest."

That only applies to the saving throw; Hold Person allows the subject to break out of it on another saving throw (meaning not the one that Spell Secrets applies to)
"the target can make another Wisdom saving throw" (PHB 251). It can't possibly apply to two different saving throws from a single spell, only the first one from when you cast the spell, any future saving throws would be the normal save.

It might RAI that it's all saving throws relating to a spell, but RAW it's just the initial save.

I mean, I suppose you could argue that it says, "Once you change a saving throw"... But it reads much more strongly to me as changing the ability score of that casting of the spell, rather than changing the ability score of the very first save. Note that it doesn't say anything about affecting the first save or one creature, like Heightened Spell does.

[skaddix]

well its raise a question does Vogonjeltz interpret multi hit spells or dots as only getting the element change on the first hit? SO if I hit someone with a Rey of Sickness are they only they poisoned on the second round and burned on the first?

[Quintessence]

I have to imagine you're joking. It can cast spells at a mile distance. It can "Metamagic" spells to do more damage. It can change saving throws once a rest. It can freely change element types. It has expertise in all knowledge rolls. And once a long rest it gets Limited Wish.

Portent is Potent. But Loremaster continues the 3.PF tradition of a wizard replacing whole classes with its abilities.

No, all of you are simply overreacting just because the class is a wizard. The same thing happened with Theurge :/

[skaddix]

Oh come on how can the Theurge be defend. It had everything the Cleric of specific Domain had except weapons and armor profs the spell list of the wizard and its class abilities.

[Chaosmancer]

This is overly dramatic, there's nothing in particular that's wrong with the Sorcerer.

Wizards get more spell selection (10 more spells memorized than Sorcerers have known, grounded by having to study a book to change them, whereas Sorcerers don't have to study anything), Sorcerers get better spells (metamagic options) and can cast them with a tad more frequency or even change their available spell slots on the fly (flexible casting).

You don't pick a Sorcerer for breadth of knowledge, you pick them for vastly more flexibility in dire straits.

And, if you're simply comparing archetypes, the Wild Magic Sorcerer has Bend Luck and can spend 2 sorcery points to apply a 2.5 (average) penalty (or bonus) to the saving throw (or ability check, or attack roll!) of another creature. Which is...flat out better (cheaper in slot value cost and more effective) than the Lore Wizard's ability to only increase spell DC at that same level. And it stacks with the Heightened Spell Metamagic.


Define your view on rob if it doesn't mean to have similarly themed abilities? The Alchemical Casting is plainly inferior to the Sorcerer abilities, and compares unfavorably to the Wild Magic archetype abilities. They're of a vaguely similar nature, but they're just not as good (nor as stackable)



No, this doesn't check out.

Spell Secrets:
"When you cast a spell with a spell slot and the spell requires a saving throw, you can change the saving throw from one ability score to another of your choice. Once you change a saving throw in this way, you can’t do so again until you finish a short or long rest."

That only applies to the saving throw; Hold Person allows the subject to break out of it on another saving throw (meaning not the one that Spell Secrets applies to)
"the target can make another Wisdom saving throw" (PHB 251). It can't possibly apply to two different saving throws from a single spell, only the first one from when you cast the spell, any future saving throws would be the normal save.

It might RAI that it's all saving throws relating to a spell, but RAW it's just the initial save.

Sorcerers get less spells. They know fewer spells, the wizard prepares more spells than they can know at every level. Wizard Ritual casting allows them to 1) cast spells they didn't prepare and 2) save on slots by not spending them. Sorcerers can barely keep up with Arcane Recovery (which returns spells to the wizard) if they decide to not use their metamagic and at higher levels wizards have spell master and signature spell to save even more spell slots.

There is no argument that lets sorcerers have more actual spells per day than wizards without choosing to for go metamagic and taking ritual caster fest for a book.... Which makes you a crappy wizard instead of a socerer.

You talk of costs, but metamagic can get very expensive and you get very little of it. Until 10th level you have two metamagics and thats it.

Lrts take 6th level? That bend luck and heighten combo? That is 5 points, by 6th level that is nearly your entire pool of points for the day. Lore can use a 3rd slot and alter the save to low save, getting a potentially equal or better effect. Then take a short rest and recover everything they just spent while the socerer needs a full days rest. Want to twin haste? Half your points for the day. Quicken costs only a third, allowing you to throw a cantrip with your other spells. Subtle? Only useful in intrigue games or to get around counterspell (which I've never seen in play).

And again, you have only 2 of these options. The lore wizard has 5 choices.

Its the full package of abilities that makes it better than the sorcerer, sorcerers can't compete with

And i think even RAW the save change continues as long as the spell does. Otherwise, like Heighten, it would specify "the initial save"

[Shining Wrath]

I'd like to point out the Diviner rolls 2 or 3 dice and can substitute them in as desired. If rolling 3, it's still 12.5% probable that all 3 dice will lie in the boring 6-15 range. That is, you won't always have a low roll waiting to be subbed in for a boss monster's saving throw, nor have a spell prepared that attacks a weak save. If you attack the Tarrasques CON save and force a roll of 5, Big T still gets a 15.

[Quintessence]

I'd like to point out the Diviner rolls 2 or 3 dice and can substitute them in as desired. If rolling 3, it's still 12.5% probable that all 3 dice will lie in the boring 6-15 range. That is, you won't always have a low roll waiting to be subbed in for a boss monster's saving throw, nor have a spell prepared that attacks a weak save. If you attack the Tarrasques CON save and force a roll of 5, Big T still gets a 15.

A 15 would fail in most instances from any competent caster.

[MrStabby]

I'd like to point out the Diviner rolls 2 or 3 dice and can substitute them in as desired. If rolling 3, it's still 12.5% probable that all 3 dice will lie in the boring 6-15 range. That is, you won't always have a low roll waiting to be subbed in for a boss monster's saving throw, nor have a spell prepared that attacks a weak save. If you attack the Tarrasques CON save and force a roll of 5, Big T still gets a 15.

In principal you are right but I would quibble with your range. I would say the boring range is 8 to 19. Getting two (3 at levels after most groups stop playing) hits for certain per day is a nice ability and all but not often as good as forcing a failed save. Unless you are encountering something way beyond your party's capabilities (or you have 7+ people in your party) then I think a 7 would still be a fail. Still, a 36% chance of not having a low roll to use for most levels.

On two short rests per day that would give the diviner on average 0.8 likely fails per day compared to the loremaster's 3 uses of their ability. Plus the loremaster gets other better abilities than the divination wizard.

[EKruze]

My fix for Lore Master:

Level 2 -- Expertise on knowledge checks as written. May subsititute the elemental damage of a spell with any element type among the traditional dragon breath weapons (fire, ice, lightning, poison, acid, etc.) when a spell is prepared.

Level 6 -- If not surprised, Lore Wizard adds Int modifier to initiative checks.

Level 10 -- Once per day, Lore Wizard may swap out up to Int modifier spells prepared for other spells in his book. This can only be done during a short rest. Furthermore, Lore Wizard can now scribe spells from any school into spellbook for half of the usual time and gold costs.

Level 14 -- Lore Wizard chooses two spells from any class spell lists. These spells are always prepared and do not count against usual spells prepared. These count a Wizard spells for the purpose of casting. They are not scribed and as such cannot be shared with other Wizards through spellbook copying.

[Spellbreaker26]

No, all of you are simply overreacting just because the class is a wizard. The same thing happened with Theurge :/

The Theurge is actually a better example of a class being totally replaced by the wizard subclass. Before level 11, it's a Wizard with a few clerical abilities and domain spells, so really competitive; after Level 11 it can cherry pick some of the best spells in the game from both lists *and* gets the Cleric subclass capstone earlier. With the suggested domains of Light/Knowledge/Arcana, it's already broken, but with a domain with really dangerous domain spells like War or with a really good Channel Divinity like Tempest the "before level 11" qualifier is busted as well.

A level 14 Theurge with the Tempest Background can fly outdoors without spells, knows all the cleric spells of its domain and three other high-level cleric spells, can maximise its Thunder or Lightning Damage for two spells (which don't have to be cleric spells) and has access to the wizard spell list on top of that.

[skaddix]

Yeah all they give up is weapon and armor proficiency. Which really is not a grand sacrifice. They can easily get that back going over to Fighter for a 2 lvl dip into action surge. But you will be plenty powerful without that. Or Warlock for eldritch blasting. You can actually afford to buff your Charisma you don't need DEX. Stone Sorcerer for CON based AC and only needing to Stats again no DEX. Or Storm to let you kite attackers. Its even thematic if you go with Tempest Domain. Or heck stick around for 3 and add metamagic to the mix. Hard to go wrong with quickened and twinned healing spells.

[LuthielValkire]

Recommended Fixes:

1. Change name to Arcanist
2. Spell secrets only allows changing energy type once per rest. No save switching.
3. Alchemy only adds + int mod force damage for Lvl 1. Lvl 2 slot unchanged. Level 3 slot = +1 to save DC.
4. Expertise skill grants unchanged.
5. Lvl 14 feature allows access to any 1-4 Lvl spell once per long rest. Name changed to Limited Wish.

Still very powerful and versatile. Takes into account that it is already very easy to cast a spell that is difficult to save against, that damage trade was too high for Lvl 1 slot, alchemy was too powerful in min/max stacking, and that Lvl 14 feature was essentially a free slightly lower powered wish.

Flavor was less lore, more Arcanist, hence the name change. Overall, still not certain if this is balanced. But it is more balanced and playable.

[Vogonjeltz]

I mean, I suppose you could argue that it says, "Once you change a saving throw"... But it reads much more strongly to me as changing the ability score of that casting of the spell, rather than changing the ability score of the very first save. Note that it doesn't say anything about affecting the first save or one creature, like Heightened Spell does

You are correct in that it says 'a' saving throw, singular. Actually it uses the singular in two places, suggesting if there were multiple saves it wouldn't change them all, only the first.


well its raise a question does Vogonjeltz interpret multi hit spells or dots as only getting the element change on the first hit? SO if I hit someone with a Rey of Sickness are they only they poisoned on the second round and burned on the first?

Well, it does say "You can only change one damage type per casting of the spell" so, if you cast a spell that deals multi-damage types you can't change them all.

With scorching ray however, no, they are all created on the casting of the spell, so they'd all be changed. Unlike, for example, the Hold Person scenario where there's the initial saving throw....and then another, expressly different saving throw later on.

Apples to Oranges you see.


Sorcerers get less spells. They know fewer spells, the wizard prepares more spells than they can know at every level. Wizard Ritual casting allows them to 1) cast spells they didn't prepare and 2) save on slots by not spending them. Sorcerers can barely keep up with Arcane Recovery (which returns spells to the wizard) if they decide to not use their metamagic and at higher levels wizards have spell master and signature spell to save even more spell slots.

There is no argument that lets sorcerers have more actual spells per day than wizards without choosing to for go metamagic and taking ritual caster fest for a book.... Which makes you a crappy wizard instead of a socerer.

You talk of costs, but metamagic can get very expensive and you get very little of it. Until 10th level you have two metamagics and thats it.

Lrts take 6th level? That bend luck and heighten combo? That is 5 points, by 6th level that is nearly your entire pool of points for the day. Lore can use a 3rd slot and alter the save to low save, getting a potentially equal or better effect. Then take a short rest and recover everything they just spent while the socerer needs a full days rest. Want to twin haste? Half your points for the day. Quicken costs only a third, allowing you to throw a cantrip with your other spells. Subtle? Only useful in intrigue games or to get around counterspell (which I've never seen in play).

And again, you have only 2 of these options. The lore wizard has 5 choices.

Its the full package of abilities that makes it better than the sorcerer, sorcerers can't compete with

And i think even RAW the save change continues as long as the spell does. Otherwise, like Heighten, it would specify "the initial save"

Well, they get the same number of slots, actually...unless you were repeating the same thought twice? (did you mean that get less == know fewer?) Wizards prepare more, ok same thought a 3rd time (which you might notice I actually stated already in the second sentence).

Rituals: 1) can't be cast in combat (too long), 2) Don't do really anything combat related

So, yes, the Wizard is the ritual caster of choice, but so what? Arcane Recovery requires rest, Sorcerers can convert on the fly, in combat. Something else I literally covered in the quoted post...the one you yourself quoted.

Sorcery points are flatly more valuable than Arcane Recovery.

Most metamagic costs 1 point. The expensive 3 are (with my critiques): Twinned (better to use Extended), Quickened (waste of points), and Heightened (possibly useful, but I probably wouldn't bother).

Haste is more of a hazard than a benefit in that it costs the subjects a turn when it ends (potential TPK right there). I'd extend it before I'd twin it, provides far more damage potential than twinning (same number of active rounds, fewer missed rounds of action).

Subtle spell also has the advantage of not revealing that you are the spellcaster.

[Grixis]

I think balance was not on the priority list for this entire unearthed arcana.

Absolutely right.

[Asmotherion]

I think the Lore Master is more workable with some simple fixes.

Note, these fixes aim to take away the spontaneity of this subclass (as that should belong to a sorcerer) as well as the power.

No fix needed. Yes, expertise in four skills is a lot, but it is four very specific, underused, thematically appropriate skills. As a pure wizard, expertise in all four means no other proficiencies too.

Damage type must be chosen at spell preparation (do you prepare a fireball or an ice ball). Limited to the damage types available to a dragon sorcerer.

The saving throw change must also be chosen at spell prep for one spell, but it affects every casting of said spell.

Mechanically, no fix is needed. Thematically, this needs to be thrown out.

No fix needed.

The character must choose their bonus spell during spell preparation (during a long rest). They can still only cast the spell once. Still a powerful ability, but not the mini Wish it was.

Thoughts? Suggestions for changing Alchemical casting?

I like your fixes for Master of Magic and Spell Secrets a lot. I still believe Lore Master needs to nerf down to a maximum of 2 knowlage skill expertese, and definitelly no Int initiative.

[Arkhios]

Recommended Fixes:

1. Change name to Arcanist
2. Spell secrets only allows changing energy type once per rest. No save switching.
3. Alchemy only adds + int mod force damage for Lvl 1. Lvl 2 slot unchanged. Level 3 slot = +1 to save DC.
4. Expertise skill grants unchanged.
5. Lvl 14 feature allows access to any 1-4 Lvl spell once per long rest. Name changed to Limited Wish.

Flavor was less lore, more Arcanist, hence the name change. Overall, still not certain if this is balanced. But it is more balanced and playable.

Although, Lore Master has more precedency than Arcanist in D&D terms. Plus, it's possible (though not very likely) that Paizo might have a thing or two to say about the name.

I don't see a big problem with Spell Secrets. Just reduce the possible damage types of the spells, to not include force - at least - and it would be fine at-will.

[Sigreid]

Although, Lore Master has more precedency than Arcanist in D&D terms. Plus, it's possible (though not very likely) that Paizo might have a thing or two to say about the name.

I don't see a big problem with Spell Secrets. Just reduce the possible damage types of the spells, to not include force - at least - and it would be fine at-will.

When I gave feedback I suggested that when you gain the future you choose one of the 4 classic elements that you can substitute due to your study of it.

[Asmotherion]

Although, Lore Master has more precedency than Arcanist in D&D terms. Plus, it's possible (though not very likely) that Paizo might have a thing or two to say about the name.

I don't see a big problem with Spell Secrets. Just reduce the possible damage types of the spells, to not include force - at least - and it would be fine at-will.

That, plus the Arcanist kinda feels to me as an all-around term for Arcane Casters, one step more specific than Mage, wich includes Arcane and Divine Casters.

[Arkhios]

When I gave feedback I suggested that when you gain the future you choose one of the 4 classic elements that you can substitute due to your study of it.

That could work.

[GraakosGraakos]

No, all of you are simply overreacting just because the class is a wizard. The same thing happened with Theurge :/

Theurge literally gets cleric features BEFORE the cleric. How is that not actually overpowered? Not just "hurrdurr muh casters" but actually a strictly better option.

[Vogonjeltz]

Theurge literally gets cleric features BEFORE the cleric. How is that not actually overpowered? Not just "hurrdurr muh casters" but actually a strictly better option.

Don't wizards have different archetype ability progression from clerics?

1,2,6,9,17

Vs 2, 6, 10, 14

Yep checks out.

[LudicSavant]

I'd like to point out the Diviner rolls 2 or 3 dice and can substitute them in as desired. If rolling 3, it's still 12.5% probable that all 3 dice will lie in the boring 6-15 range. That is, you won't always have a low roll waiting to be subbed in for a boss monster's saving throw, nor have a spell prepared that attacks a weak save. If you attack the Tarrasques CON save and force a roll of 5, Big T still gets a 15.

And a 15 from Big T fails the save, for any Diviner wizard high enough level to roll 3 dice. A Diviner with 3 Portent rolls expects to have a save DC of 18+ for their spells.

Your so-called "boring range" is more than enough to guarantee success.

[Spellbreaker26]

Don't wizards have different archetype ability progression from clerics?

1,2,6,9,17

Vs 2, 6, 10, 14

Yep checks out.

It doesn't check out. Wizards are getting - on top of having access to the two largest spell lists in the game - a capstone ability three levels earlier than the Cleric. It's a huge spit in the eye for a wizard to be able to get your subclass abilities earlier than you, plus some of those abilities are very strong - unlimited outdoor flight and unlimited stoneskin stand out.

But the archetype ability progression is actually less offensive than simply the access to those spell lists. The wizard is already the most flexible caster in the game, this just breaks the meter. At lower levels it's not too bad, but by the time you get to level 11 it just skyrockets, so less offensive overall than Lore Master, which is borked at almost every level.

Except for Tempest Theurge, which has such an ungodly synergy between the Tempest domain abilities and the Wizard spell variety that it may be the most broken UA combination available.

[Battlebooze]

Loremaster is great and perfectly balanced!

(For my evil NPC wizard at least!)

Mohahahahahhaha!

[Toofey]

Someone needs to think things through more carefully. Lore master felt tacked on, and poorly thought out.

I have been working on home brew options for the mage, and I feel like expertise in 1 thing is fine, maybe player choice from those 4 (but I've given investigation and arcana in different kits), changing damage type is a little on the potent side but not terrible most of the time. The 10th and 14th abilities don't actually seem terrible. At first blush the 10th level ability seem strong, but it's 1/rest so it's not crazy. 14th level is fine.

But that 6th level ability is just crazy. More additional damage than any spell would give for a single spell level, or a MILE range on a 30' range spell.

I'm sorry, a Mile. Dominate Person at a mile. Way too broken.

[Vogonjeltz]

It doesn't check out.

The progression mate, the progression checks out. It's not like they can get the abilities at other levels than they get them.


Wizards are getting - on top of having access to the two largest spell lists in the game - a capstone ability three levels earlier than the Cleric. It's a huge spit in the eye for a wizard to be able to get your subclass abilities earlier than you, plus some of those abilities are very strong - unlimited outdoor flight and unlimited stoneskin stand out.

I can't take the idea of flight that seriously, everyone under the sun has ranged options, by level 14 flight is basically a ribbon. The stoneskin ability is only against nonmagical weapons...again by level 14 everyone is doing some form of damage other than that. Basically you're now harder to kill by kobolds and goblins and orcs oh my. This is making mountains out of molehills, the abilities simply aren't that great by the time they're received. The Cleric's real capstone is Divine Intervention, everything else is gravy.


But the archetype ability progression is actually less offensive than simply the access to those spell lists. The wizard is already the most flexible caster in the game, this just breaks the meter. At lower levels it's not too bad, but by the time you get to level 11 it just skyrockets, so less offensive overall than Lore Master, which is borked at almost every level.

Except for Tempest Theurge, which has such an ungodly synergy between the Tempest domain abilities and the Wizard spell variety that it may be the most broken UA combination available.

[sightlessrealit]

Seems fine to me apart from of all things the INT for Initiative.

I mean Why not Lv6 Lore Master & Lv14 Sorcerer(Origin of choice)?

Personally I like the idea of a Lv6 Lore Master with a Lv14 Sea Origin Sorcerer. Maybe cut 2 Levels from Sorcerer for a 2 Dip in Warlock just cause.