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nunomeskita
2017-02-16, 08:24 AM
Hey, guys! I am still very new to Dnd but I have completely fallen in love with the monk class but from what I have read they seem to be extremely underpowered when compared with some of the other classes. I don't really have a group I can play or talk about with when it comes to Dnd so I was hoping you guys could help me recreate the monk class in a way it doesn't become overpowered. In terms of power, I am aiming for tier 3/2.
:)

So when I think of the monk in Dnd I imagine a badass melee unarmed fighter that uses his speed to deflect blows and move through the field fast, taking priority targets by either defeating them or immobilizing them. The way I see them doing this is by relying on either their physical speed or mind-body control, so I am currently playing with the idea of having the monk class have a small ramification where you can either specialize in either a Dexterity based fighter, a Wisdom based fighter or a mix of both.

These are a few abilities I have been thinking about to make this Homebrew badass Monk work. They are not in any particular order or have been associated with a specific level, they are just random ideas.
(These include a few ideas from other posts)


-At level 1- "Precise strike" (pretty much weapon finesse), when striking foes you have learned to rely on technique instead of raw power, your attack bonus and damage rolls uses Dex modifier instead of Str, OR "Wise strike", through intensive meditation you have acquired an exceptional control of your body using your mind, your attack bonus and damage rolls uses Wis modifier instead of Str.

-At level x/x/x/x/x-"Ki strike, Empowerment"(modified),(prerequisite "Wise strike") You have learned to use your life energy to empower your unarmed attacks, for a number equal to you monk level + wis modifier you can empower your unarmed attacks during a full round making them act like +1/+2/+3+/4+/+5 Enchanted Weapons.

-At level x-“Ki strike, Projection”, (prerequisite "Wise strike") You can now focus your Ki into your unarmed attacks increasing its range, for a number equal to your monk level + wis modifier you can project your attack 5 feet forward (for a total of 10 feet total)(Can be used with your other Ki strike abilities).

-At level x-“Ki strike, Touch”, (prerequisite "Wise strike") Using the power of your mind you can now bypass an enemy’s armor, for a number of 2x your Cha Modifier per day you can Empower the attacks in a round to deal touch damage(Can be used with your other Ki strike abilities).

-At level x-"Unarmed strike proficiency", (prerequisite "Precise strike") You gain +1 attack bonus in your unarmed attacks.

-At level x-"Vital points knowledge", (prerequisite "Precise strike") Having a superior knowledge of the body you can strike the vital points with great accuracy, Your critical strike window becomes 19-20 (maybe 18-20)

-At level x-"Deadly precision", (prerequisite "Precise strike") You have learned to use your body as a lethal weapon, you unarmed critical strikes now deals 3x Damage.

-At level x(maybe 3)- "Improved Flurry of Blows", Flurry of blows now counts as a standard action

-At level x-"Martial Grapple", Having studied a variety of fighting techniques you have learned to rely more on your body movement instead of your strength to immobilize enemies, You can use either your str modifier or dex modifier in your grapple attempts (whichever is higher)

-At level x-"Martial Grapple, Mastery", You are now able to use you own opponents weight in your favour when trying to grapple, you can grapple as being a size bigger.

-At Level x-“Speed Demon”, When moving past enemies you no longer provoke an attack of opportunity and when running past enemies you retain you Dex and Wis AC bonus.

-At Level x-“Moving strike”, You can now move between strikes when using your normal attack (doesn’t work with flurry of blows or Ki strikes) but each step counts as two movements (starts after your first strike.

-At Level x/x-“Wall run”, Through intense training you are able to run across walls, you can run either 20/40 feet horizontally or 10/20 feet vertically as part of your movement action, if you don’t find solid ground by the end of your movement you need to make an appropriate check depending if you are landing or starting a climb.

-At Level x/x/x-“Master of movement”, You can choose to either gain +3 bonus to Tumble, Jump and Climb or Move silently, Hide and Escape artist.

-At Level x/x/x-“Mind over body”, You now understand that pain is not only physical but mental and you have learned to negate the later, 2x your Wis Mod per day you can reduce the damage received by 5/10/15. You can use this ability after knowing the damage dealt


General Mechanics
Now gains 6 skill points per level
Has Full Bab
Gets his Dex Mod and Wis mod added to his Ac
Retains previous abilities

As I said before I dont have a lot of knowledge about Dnd and haven't played that many games so not sure how this would work in the actual game and what levels would be best for each ability. What are your thoughts on the abilities and would they make the Monk more viable, interesting a specialized?

Also, I have read thousands of forum post but first time actually posting something so also not sure if I am doing this right xD

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Deepbluediver
2017-02-17, 01:59 PM
The main problems with the Monk were that it had a lot of abilities but those abilities weren't very strong, it's abilities didn't synergize well, it tended to get things way later than casters or even other classes did, and because of it's lack of armor and weapons it tended to be very very MAD (multi-attribute dependent). People have tried to fix this in various ways, mainly by doing things like making all of a Monk's abilities queue off of Wisdom, giving the Monk a psionics-like pool of ki points to fuel special abilities, and giving it more focus on being a mobile striker-combatant, somewhat like a Rogue.

Depending on what you're aiming for though, it's hard to get the Monk all the way up to tier 3, which is generally considered the sweet spot for homebrewing (are you familiar with the Tier-list for 3.5?) unless you start getting into really out-there solutions because it's a non-caster in a system that favors casters.

Also, I'm not really active on the forum much any more, but at one time I was working on my own fix for most of the core classes- feel free to read over my version of the monk and take anything that you like from there: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266147-Monk-Fix-2-0

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-17, 03:13 PM
I dug through my bookmarks, and I found some things you can look at if you want to borrow from or use.
Note that some tables may have broken.

Jiriku's Monk Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed).
Ki Pool: No.
Closeness to original monk: 10/10
Notes: This is pretty much a straight rework and improvement on the default monk. It plays and feels similar, except less janky. It has a clear role in the party, and a variety of skills. It is designed to fit within some of his other homebrew, though- may step on the default rogue's toes. Includes a selection of fixed feats.

Realms of Chaos's monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266433-A-Thorough-Monk-Fix-(PEACH))
Ki Pool: Yes
Closeness to original monk: 8/10, most of the original features, but several wholly new ones.
Notes: Close to original monk in many ways. Redundant features are mostly pared away. Ki pool is added, but rather than modifying existing class features, it enhances them by spending ki- for example, by spending a point, you could temporarily enhance unarmed strikes, uncanny dodge, evasion, etc. It's an interesting look on what directly upgrading monk features could look like. Complexity can go way up due to the number of features which you could spend ki on, but is kept in check by ki expenditure almost always taking up your swift action.

T.G.Oskar's Monk Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226857-3-5-The-Retooled-Monk-Strikes-Back-now-with-150-more-complexity!)
Ki Pool: Yes
Closeness to original monk: 4/10
Notes: Loads of class customization options, including style(Fighting defensively, flurry-of-blows-by-way-of-Snap-Kick,Stunning Fist, etc), elemental affinity, animal totem for skill bonuses, and philosophy.

Jarian's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193791-3-5-Base-Class-The-Ascetic-(Or-one-more-monk-fix-to-throw-on-the-heap)-PEACH)
Ki pool: Yes.
Closeness to original monk: 6/10
Notes: Several interesting and unusual styles- Flurry of Blows(i.e. Snap Kick) is in the Sneak Attack style, for example. Nothing special, except that this class is physically oriented to a greater degree than the rest- there's no Wisdom reliance.


ben-zayb's monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404941-a-Monk-alternative-not-posted-on-a-monkday-PEACH)
Ki Pool: Yes, sorta.
Closeness to original monk: 5/10, decreasing with level as unique abilities are added.
Notes: Has a very interesting and innovative mechanic where ki is technically a stored period of meditation. Abilities don't reference ki directly, they say "By meditating for X minutes, a monk gains Y". Epiphany is a unique monk-only ability which temporarily increases your level. Most distinct identity out of all of these, I think.

Chi classes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364610-Focus-Your-Chi-(PEACH))
Not technically a Monk fix, more a collection of classes remade to be Chi-based and Eastern in theme. Chi is a static number which increases your speed, attack bonus, AC, grants some abilities.
Samurai is the Fighter, Ninja is the Rogue, Mystic is the mage, and Monk is remade as a healer, unusually. Each class has some interesting and unique abilities.

nunomeskita
2017-02-19, 09:07 AM
The main problems with the Monk were that it had a lot of abilities but those abilities weren't very strong, it's abilities didn't synergize well, it tended to get things way later than casters or even other classes did, and because of it's lack of armor and weapons it tended to be very very MAD (multi-attribute dependent). People have tried to fix this in various ways, mainly by doing things like making all of a Monk's abilities queue off of Wisdom, giving the Monk a psionics-like pool of ki points to fuel special abilities, and giving it more focus on being a mobile striker-combatant, somewhat like a Rogue.

Depending on what you're aiming for though, it's hard to get the Monk all the way up to tier 3, which is generally considered the sweet spot for homebrewing (are you familiar with the Tier-list for 3.5?) unless you start getting into really out-there solutions because it's a non-caster in a system that favors casters.

Also, I'm not really active on the forum much any more, but at one time I was working on my own fix for most of the core classes- feel free to read over my version of the monk and take anything that you like from there:

I really like your version of the monk it has some interesting concepts that I might borrow for mine. I had seen other homebrew versions using the ki pool ability to provide him with a different form of gameplay and I think it is a good way of making the monk more viable and versatily when used with good abilities but for me he then feels a little bit like a caster.

Right now I am trying to make him more like a speed demon on the battle field being able to neutrilize important targets using his mobility. If he did not incur no attack of opportunity when moving past enemies together with some improved grappling abilities and even some of the movement abilities you showed on your homebrew I think he would then have a more clear purpose in game and be fun to play but I dont know if those abilities would be too overpowered. Also having other movement based abilities like striking during is movement feel right for him but once more they also feel like they could be a little overpowered.

I am familiar with the tier list and wanted to bump him to tier 3. I am currently also working on solution to tone down a little the caster by using the concentration system from 5e and instead of letting wizards learn spells has they level up all spells they learn need to be from study and then adding them to their spellbook.

nunomeskita
2017-02-19, 09:12 AM
Thank you aimlessPolymath!
I will definitely have a look through those and get some inspiration.
:)

Deepbluediver
2017-02-19, 08:41 PM
I really like your version of the monk it has some interesting concepts that I might borrow for mine. I had seen other homebrew versions using the ki pool ability to provide him with a different form of gameplay and I think it is a good way of making the monk more viable and versatily when used with good abilities but for me he then feels a little bit like a caster.
Feel free to take what you like and discard what you don't. People have mentioned that some of the mechanics are very unusual and I agree with them- that fix was done specifically to how I wanted the Monk to play (one of the first characters I ever played in D&D was a monk and I've had a soft-spot for them ever since). A lot of it is also based on or inspired by other people's Monk fixes. That's the point of homebrew- we see good ideas and bad ideas (or maybe more accurately ideas we like and ones we don't) and then we take those ideas and homebrew them further.


I am familiar with the tier list and wanted to bump him to tier 3. I am currently also working on solution to tone down a little the caster by using the concentration system from 5e and instead of letting wizards learn spells has they level up all spells they learn need to be from study and then adding them to their spellbook.
IMO, one of the biggest issues with spells in 3.5 was that they didn't require rolls for the most part. There were various other aspects that were supposed to limit them (concentration checks, provoking attacks of opportunity, etc) however because of the way the system was designed, such as casters being Single Attribute Dependent (SAD) anything that was a challenge for a full caster was virtually impossible for anyone else. So the end result was that casters tended to breeze through with hardly any challenge at all.

The point is, one of the easiest things you can do is apply a roll to every single spell cast, just like you would for most other actions (attacks, skill checks, etc). The DC for a spellcraft-roll is 10+spell level, and then you can add whatever bonuses or penalties or anything else that you need to make it feel balanced.