What if: Malack lost against Durkon?

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure how much this subject was discussed at the time, but I find myself wondering: what do you think would have happened if Malack had lost against Durkon?

Would Durkon have tried to bring the shaman Malack once was back? Would he have accepted? What would the shaman have done, then? And how would Tarquin or Nale, who essentially lost the vampire that was respectively their friend and murder target, have reacted?

I know that it'd be quite hard to find evidence for what could have happen, but it's pretty fascinating to think how the duel between Malack and Durkon influenced the whole world so much.

[littlebum2002]

Not-Durkon has told Durkon that, eventually, the host's mind goes dormant. So after so many centuries the original "Malack" was certainly dormant for all of the friendship with Durkon. I wonder if, had he been resurrected, would he retain all those memories? Or would he only remember the things that happened while he was alive and before he went dormant?

[Samzat]

Nale would have survived the battle, because he wouldnt have killed Malack. In addition, Xykon would have found an intact pyramid, causing him to find both his former employee Nale, and Tarquin, who doesnt stand a chance against him knowingly, so he will likely bugger off. The Order would likley get cut to pieces as Belkar is still fighting at half power and V is still crying in the pity hole

[TeCoolMage]

In other words, DM railroading or anti climactic plot

[Jay R]

In other words, DM railroading or anti climactic plot

There is no DM. This is a story, not a game.

If Rich had written Malack's death at that point, he would have found some other way to turn Durkon into a vampire and blow up the pyramid, so he could continue adding complications to the story and extend the amount of money he will make off of it.

[Unoriginal]

Durkon didn't have to become a vampire.

And the pyramid exploding was still the likely outcome: there was no way the Order could secure it, even if the whole team was here.

[Kish]

You and Jay R are using "have to" in different ways, I think. Jay R is talking Doylistically, but you asked a Watsonian question, if I'm not misunderstanding.

Doylistically, yes, Durkon did have to become a vampire. Rich has spelled out that that was planned since the Dungeon of Dorukan. The very first step of Malack's design, before anything else, was, "I'm going to have the Durkon vampire conversion happen in this book, so now I'll design the vampire who will convert him."

Watsonianly is a different story.

[Quild]

My theories:


I'm not sure how much this subject was discussed at the time, but I find myself wondering: what do you think would have happened if Malack had lost against Durkon?
Durkon would have been with the Haley, Roy, Elan but also Belkar for the room with the phantasm runes. Maybe or maybe not, it would have helped the Order to get out faster of this room.

The Order could have tried to fight The Linear Guild (assuming TLG goes here without Malack, without Durkon* and Spiky, without knowing that The Order has Belkar drained and lost Durkon. Tarquin would more likely have remained on the idea of getting reinforcements).
If the Order had lost less time in the previous room, Durkon could have summoned his planar ally (instead of Spiky) or use Sending to contact V and try to make the Order whole again (this last part would have required some time though).

Assuming the Order has no fight against TLG or wins, Xykon is still on the move and Roy may still be willing to make the same decision. However, V might be consulted on this one.
If V is consulted and convices Roy not to destroy the Gate => Fight against Team Evil.
If not, same results for the Order but no vampire Durkon. Which changes a lot of things for the future of the story (bye bye Hel and no tie in the Godsmoot).

Malack would still be dead, but Nale and Z may still be alive.


Would Durkon have tried to bring the shaman Malack once was back?
Depends if he believes Malack on the fact that after 200 years, there's not much left of that shaman


Would he have accepted?
Probably not. The spirit would at least be aware that a lot of time has passed and that everything he knew is dead. Finally being granted afterlife is probably good enough for him. Don't forget that dying is not the same in D&D/OOTSverse than IRL.


What would the shaman have done, then?
No idea.


And how would Tarquin or Nale, who essentially lost the vampire that was respectively their friend and murder target, have reacted?
Tarquin? Either pissed against The Order/Durkon which doesn't change much.
Nale? Probably pissed against The Order/Durkon for spoiling him of his revenge.

[Jay R]

From an in-world point of view, Hel would have gotten her cleric somewhere else (I assume she was trying to work every vampire in the world), so the party wouldn't have known about it, Roy wouldn't have been at the godsmoot, and the world would already be destroyed.

[Kish]

That hinges on the assumption that everything Greg has said to Durkon about Hel lacking clerics and a high-level cleric falling to vampirism being highly unusual is a lie. Which is possible, but not the way I'm betting.

(I'm not even sure what "trying to work every vampire in the world" means. Aside from the fact that only one-third had any connection to her and those still had no reason to obey her any more than Nale obeyed Odin, do you mean trying to make them all gain a ton of cleric levels, or trying to get them all to suicidally stalk high-level clerics?)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I can answer one question for you. If Durkon defeated Malack, Malack's gone for good. Undead can't be resurrected without a Wish spell. The shaman who got turned into Malack is also long gone, since Resurrection has a limit of 10 years per caster level and there's no way Durkon is Epic.

As towards Belkar, can someone remind me if positive energy clerics can spontaneously cast Restoration? I think that's one they have to memorize ahead of time, but I'm not sure.

[Kish]

Durkon can only spontaneously cast spells that have both "Cure" and "Wounds" in them. Restoration doesn't qualify.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Redundant. The only spells with Cure in the title are Cure X Wounds. All the other cure stuff is under Neutralize or Remove now.

[Jasdoif]

As towards Belkar, can someone remind me if positive energy clerics can spontaneously cast Restoration? I think that's one they have to memorize ahead of time, but I'm not sure.Not normally, no:
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

Hm. I'm kind of wondering how many clerics were allowed to spontaneously cast obscure object now.

[Jay R]

That hinges on the assumption that everything Greg has said to Durkon about Hel lacking clerics and a high-level cleric falling to vampirism being highly unusual is a lie. Which is possible, but not the way I'm betting.

(I'm not even sure what "trying to work every vampire in the world" means. Aside from the fact that only one-third had any connection to her and those still had no reason to obey her any more than Nale obeyed Odin, do you mean trying to make them all gain a ton of cleric levels, or trying to get them all to suicidally stalk high-level clerics?)

You're right; I'd forgotten how rare they are. I meant that Hel would watch every new vampire made, looking for one she could use as a High Priest, since her plan hinged on having one at the moment of the godsmoot. [She didn't need a high-level cleric; just a cleric.] But there probably wasn't another one available.

Another lovely theory shot down by an ugly fact.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hm. I'm kind of wondering how many clerics were allowed to spontaneously cast obscure object now.

Also: Secure shelter.

And how many players designed attempted to create their own spell with a name like "Cure enemy of their evil ways by smiting it in the face".

GW

[Kish]

You're right; I'd forgotten how rare they are. I meant that Hel would watch every new vampire made, looking for one she could use as a High Priest, since her plan hinged on having one at the moment of the godsmoot. [She didn't need a high-level cleric; just a cleric.] But there probably wasn't another one available.

Actually, she needed one high-level enough to cast Summon Proxy--a spell of undefined level, but Roy called it high-end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html). High enough that that limitation is explicitly what stopped her from giving any random wight first-level cleric powers and having it show up at the Godsmoot to let her vote years ago.

(I don't remember where Rich said that--the Index probably has it--but Roy's commentary on the spell's level establishes the requirement, in any event.)

[Unoriginal]

Actually, she needed one high-level enough to cast Summon Proxy--a spell of undefined level, but Roy called it high-end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1027.html). High enough that that limitation is explicitly what stopped her from giving any random wight first-level cleric powers and having it show up at the Godsmoot to let her vote years ago.

Would be hilarious if the vampire the High Priest of Hel selected as his replacement was too low level to cast the Summon Proxy spell.

[RatElemental]

I can answer one question for you. If Durkon defeated Malack, Malack's gone for good. Undead can't be resurrected without a Wish spell. The shaman who got turned into Malack is also long gone, since Resurrection has a limit of 10 years per caster level and there's no way Durkon is Epic.

As towards Belkar, can someone remind me if positive energy clerics can spontaneously cast Restoration? I think that's one they have to memorize ahead of time, but I'm not sure.

Was gonna ask for clarification on the possibility of resurrecting the shaman since I know resurrection has a time limit on it. However, I'm pretty sure one of the books has a spell that restores a destroyed undead to its not destroyed state. Restore Undeath or some such.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Was gonna ask for clarification on the possibility of resurrecting the shaman since I know resurrection has a time limit on it. However, I'm pretty sure one of the books has a spell that restores a destroyed undead to its not destroyed state. Restore Undeath or some such.
That would restore Malack not the Shaman.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, if Durkon defeats Malack, the story certainly takes a very different angle. The Hel plotline probably doesn't come into play and the Norse Pantheon votes to save the world, leading to that particular subplot being voided. I imagine that Roy is less hasty to destroy the Gate with Durkon (and eventually Vaarsuvius and less drained Belkar) with him, so the end of Book 5 probably ends with a three way fight between the Order, the Vector Legion, and Team Evil. I imagine it ended similarily, though the interaction between Tarquin and Xykon would be amusing to say the least.

[Snails]

Bringing the ante-Malack back is a practical impossibility. The spell only restores creatures to life who have been dead no more than 10 years times caster level. We have no positive knowledge of a cleric with such a high caster level. RC is only 17th.

I think the simple answer to the OP's question is that Roy still destroys the Gate.

The Order was banking on some kind of deal with Clan Draketooth. The original plan was to help the Draketooths fend off Xykon. The revised plan was to help the Draketooths fend off both Xykon and Tarquin. The re-revised plan was to find the Gate first...and do...something.

Durkon alive and Malack dead does not change the larger strategic picture. Nor does the Order being healthy and all together to defend the Gate. Destroying the Gate was the only option, once it was apparent that Clan Draketooth was not an available resource, as was originally hoped.

[goodpeople25]

Actually, resurrecting the shaman while avoiding the years dead restriction might actually be more practical at that and this time. Well as practical as relying on Banjo having achieved demigod status while using one of his minimum of 2 salient divine abilities for gift of life (think that would work, though identification I believe is still in play ) and then using it can be.:smallbiggrin:

Really just pointing out godly abilities, not practical in a getting them to use it way but at least they could have the ability at this time.

[RatElemental]

That would restore Malack not the Shaman.

I was responding to Rogar saying this:

I can answer one question for you. If Durkon defeated Malack, Malack's gone for good. Undead can't be resurrected without a Wish spell.

[Snails]

Really just pointing out godly abilities, not practical in a getting them to use it way but at least they could have the ability at this time.

While we are considering theoretical possibilities, one might reasonably speculate that the resources of the godsmoot could be pooled to achieve caster level 20, in some fashion, assuming there is no individual caster of sufficient level.

Of course, Durkon's comment was hardly a reasonable offer to Malack. But it was a sincere off the cuff attempt to come up a positive negotiation point by a person who knew embarrassingly little about Undeath for a double digit level cleric and is not much of a negotiator -- Durkon is Durkon.

[Bedinsis]

To give my answer I must both be speculative and speak of things that occurred in Origin of PCs:
The reason Durkon was sent on his pilgrimage was because he was prophesied to "Bring death and destruction once he returns". Since the priesthood knew he would leave his home some time no matter what and subsequently return they wanted to ensure that his return was in the far off future, hence a sudden pilgrimage for Brother Thundershield.

I speculate that this prophesy will be fulfilled in Greg, a high priest of the Goddess of Death, who'll be quite destructive on return.

If Durkon would've won against Malack he would not be vamped and would therefore not be able to fulfil the prophesy. For this reason there would never have been a prophesy in the first place, and Durkon never would've been a member of the Order of the Stick. My conclusion therefore is that Durkon could not possibly have won because prophesies tend to not be broken in this comic.

Having said that, it is a rather boring conclusion, so if I ignore those details, I think Durkon would've tried to raise the Shaman that eventually became Malack. Whether that would've succeeded or not, or if Durkon would settle for carrying the corpse until a more opportune moment would arrive I don't know. With no dead Durkon and Malack actually beaten I don't think Roy would've made the decision to destroy the gate, so there might have been an actual confrontation with Xykon & C:o.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Incorrect. That just means the prophecy would've been fulfilled another way. Maybe when Durkon finds out he can come home, he does, and Tarquin follows him with the united armies of Blood, Sweat and Tears to avenge his fallen best friend. Plenty of death and destruction then, believe you me.

[Yendor]

Incorrect. That just means the prophecy would've been fulfilled another way. Maybe when Durkon finds out he can come home, he does, and Tarquin follows him with the united armies of Blood, Sweat and Tears to avenge his fallen best friend. Plenty of death and destruction then, believe you me.

Given that Tarquin reacts to Nale killing Malack as if Nale broke his best china, as Kish puts it, the chance of him giving a crap are pretty slim. He'd probably think it was fitting that Malack was taken down by his opposite number.

[Aeliren]

I'm not sure how much this subject was discussed at the time, but I find myself wondering: what do you think would have happened if Malack had lost against Durkon?

Would Durkon have tried to bring the shaman Malack once was back? Would he have accepted? What would the shaman have done, then? And how would Tarquin or Nale, who essentially lost the vampire that was respectively their friend and murder target, have reacted?

I know that it'd be quite hard to find evidence for what could have happen, but it's pretty fascinating to think how the duel between Malack and Durkon influenced the whole world so much.
My hypothesis: Bringing back the shaman Malack was would likely have been impossible however you look at it. His body has been dead for centuries, his mind likely dormant for a long time. Tarquin probably wouldn't be too happy about his death, but his story-based mindset would probably find it fitting that Malack was taken down by his opposite. Probably wouldn't stop him from trying to avenge his friend and asset, though. Nale, on the other hand, would be furious to have been denied once again by the Order, though he likely wouldn't have died - at least not yet, though his tendency to rant would probably have lead him to say out loud that he wanted to be the one to kill him, right in front of Tarquin's allies. Still a bad situation all things considered, but he didn't actually do the deed and would likely have walked away alive since he had absolutely nothing to gloat about, and his father couldn't have offered to smooth things out with the others since he hasn't actually done anything. Zz'dtri would also be alive since there would be no Durkon* to suck his blood out and snap his neck.

The fate of the pyramid would likely have been the same. Even with Durkon still alive and the possibility of summoning the planar guardian still on the table, they would still be aware of Team Evil's approach thanks to the Sending message. With the Linear Guild already closing in on the gate, they couldn't afford to take any chances. The fight against the army of the Empire of Blood would go about the same way, though the plan wouldn't be to survive until dusk since Durkon wouldn't have to wait until dusk as a good-aligned cleric, and Belkar probably wouldn't be a one-hitpoint-wonder kicking up sand from behind a raptor head. However, Sabine might be less inclined to tell Vaarsuvius of the Vector Legion's weaknesses since she no longer has a personal interest in it. She might be fond in a friendly way with V thanks to the accidental couples advice she was given back in Azure City, but I'm fairly certain that the tipping point for the advice was revenge against Tarquin and the Vector Legion for killing her lover. Without her knowledge, the Order wouldn't have known about Miron's Contigency spell nor Laurin's tendency to pull out her strongest guns first. However, Durkon wouldn't be affected by the sun and wouldn't have been disabled in the fight, at least not the way he was, and would've been able to heal the others. Furthermore, Laurin was still low on power and would've likely bolted the moment she saw she didn't have enough left to finish the fight. Also, it isn't clear what triggered Miron's Contingency spell. If it only teleports him when he suffers incredible amounts of damage in one go (for example, Roy, Belkar and Haley's combined damage), he might have been killed in the fight if he only took several low-to-moderate hits. If they still decided to gangpile the mage or it triggers on low health he would've been teleported as it happened in the comic. If Nale is still alive, he and Zz'dtri would likely participate in the fight.

In Tinkertown, instead of spending their day looking for priests to "resurrect" Durkon, he and Roy would likely have spent their day differently, shopping for magical items like Vaarsuvius in preparation or whatever. Belkar, having not been coerced in jumping off an airship multiple times by a vampire, would probably not have bought feather fall and protection from evil items. They would've continued directly towards Kraagor's Tomb. Furthermore, Roy would never have learned about his sword being a weapon of legacy.

Hel's plot would've most likely failed right there. The Order barely made it to the Godsmoot because the Mechane arrives just in the nick of time, and unless Durkon* was lying through his teeth the whole entire time (which, mind you, is possible considering who we're talking about), Hel has had a lot of difficulty getting a cleric of the appropriate level to become her high priest. Without a representative, she wouldn't have had a vote and wouldn't have been able to bring about her plan.

[Riftwolf]

Here's a question I hope someone could answer; could Malack have gaseous-formed down into the sand when Zztdri dispelled his Protection? It seemed like the standard length of time vampires get (one move action, I think) was extended for dramatic purposes for Malack.

[Kish]

1) Nale explicitly said he doubted Malack could and he didn't, so...
2) A sunlight-exposed vampire gets one standard action; Malack's was to attack Nale, once.

[Riftwolf]

Ah, right; would've been a standard action to change (I think? Srd crashes my phone...), he wouldn't have the move action to move through the sand.
Will remind myself if I'm ever playing a vampire to find a way to quicken gaseous form for emergencies.

[ReaderAt2046]

I'm not sure how much this subject was discussed at the time, but I find myself wondering: what do you think would have happened if Malack had lost against Durkon?

Would Durkon have tried to bring the shaman Malack once was back? Would he have accepted? What would the shaman have done, then? And how would Tarquin or Nale, who essentially lost the vampire that was respectively their friend and murder target, have reacted?

I know that it'd be quite hard to find evidence for what could have happen, but it's pretty fascinating to think how the duel between Malack and Durkon influenced the whole world so much.

You do realize that the entire point of this story was for Durkon to lose that fight against Malak, right? Everything else was built around that. If Durkon had won the fight, everything would have been undone.

[137beth]

Would be hilarious if the vampire the High Priest of Hel selected as his replacement was too low level to cast the Summon Proxy spell.


Might not matter anymore, since the Proxy has already been summoned and her vote was already cast.

If it did matter, I'm sure Vampire Durkon would have taken it into account in his selection of a replacement.

[theasl]

If it did matter, I'm sure Vampire Durkon would have taken it into account in his selection of a replacement.

He literally chose the closest one, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Of course, that one could resign as well and appoint one that did, unless there were none.

[hroþila]

He chose the closest one because it didn't matter. If it had mattered, he wouldn't simply have chosen the closest one.

[KorvinStarmast]

"Our church is a frontarchy. Prove otherwise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1017.html)." :smallbiggrin:

[Procyonpi]

Malack would have failed to fulfill his entire narrative purpose and reason for being in the comic.

[137beth]

He chose the closest one because it didn't matter. If it had mattered, he wouldn't simply have chosen the closest one.

Yea, this was what I meant. The fact that HPoH seemed not to care who his successor was seems to indicate that he believed it didn't matter (and I'd assume HPoH has a very thorough understanding of the Moot rules).

[The MunchKING]

He literally chose the closest one, so I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Of course, that one could resign as well and appoint one that did, unless there were none.

Alternately he knew EVERY one of the Creed of Stone (that showed up to build/destroy the Godsmoot cathedral) would be high enough to cast the spell. I mean granted all he really knew they had was...

Huh. The cleric guy didn't say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

SO he didn't know what spell levels they had except that the CoS thought they could join the Godmoot in the future. Unless Hel told him something specific to help with this plan. Possibly after requiring him to cast some divinations to fall within the Rules.

[littlebum2002]

Alternately he knew EVERY one of the Creed of Stone (that showed up to build/destroy the Godsmoot cathedral) would be high enough to cast the spell. I mean granted all he really knew they had was...

Huh. The cleric guy didn't say (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html).

SO he didn't know what spell levels they had except that the CoS thought they could join the Godmoot in the future. Unless Hel told him something specific to help with this plan. Possibly after requiring him to cast some divinations to fall within the Rules.

Unless the Creed of Stone have some cool domain spells that helped them make this place, all Clerics have access to all spells. So it's probably that Durkon (and, by extension, the HPoH) knows exactly what spells was used, simply because he has the ability to ask for the same spell if he wanted it.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, but the difference between a cleric who can cast Stone Shape, and one who can cast Greater Planar Ally or Summon Monster IX and get them to do it for them is pretty vast in terms of which spells the clerics could ask for later (I.E. Summon Proxy). I'm talking about what level of spells they could have rather than any sort of idea that they would have access to spells Durkon* wouldn't.