Empowered BB/GFB question

[MrFahrenheit]

So I've been looking around for this and maybe my searching skills just suck, but I couldn't find an answer. Hoping the playground can help me out here.

Say a sorc 3/paladin 14 has a cha mod of 5. Said sorcadin casts BB with a fourth level smite, using a long sword in one hand. With improved smite, he's rolling 12d8 (1d8 weapon + 1d8 improved smite + 5d8 smite + 5d8 BB) + str mod. Not liking the damage results, he gets to reroll five of those d8s.

Question here is: do the 5 rerolls come specifically from the BB damage "pool" (I.e., should be rolled separately for just this situation), or can they come from any of the d8s?

Follow up: Doesn't seem to matter so much if they're all d8s, but if it the character used a great axe (or other large die weapon), or the character has rogue levels thrown in there and could apply it to sneak attack dice, does your answer change?

[bid]

I don't think smite qualifies as a spell.

[MrFahrenheit]

I don't think smite qualifies as a spell.

So separate pools then? I.e, roll 7d8, then roll 5d8?

[bid]

So separate pools then? I.e, roll 7d8, then roll 5d8?
Probably.

Although... BB-17 does +3d8, no?

[MrFahrenheit]

Should be 5d8, unless its been errat'ed.

[Deleted]

Should be 5d8, unless its been errat'ed.

Booming Blade: @ Level 17: +2d8 on the hit, +3d8 if the target moves.

Some DMs think empower only work on the +2d8, but it should work on all of it.

Also spells that cause creatures to move, such as Command, count as forced movement via a recent tweet so Booming Blade is a bit... Meh now.


Edit===

Smite is not a spell and empower doesn't work.

[RipTide]

How i read the effects, you empower a specific spell and can re-roll the damage of that specific spell. so all damage is separate even though it is all d8's, and you have to treat it differently for damage types as well.

So in your example each instance is a separate damage that must be treated separately. So 1d8 slashing from weapon is separate from 6d8 radiant from smite and improved smite is separate from 3d8 thunder damage from BB that you empowered. As far as I know smite is not considered a spell and you can not apply metamagic to it. So from your example you could only reroll up to the 3 dice from BB. Whether empower would then extend to the second damage from BB is up to the DM but I would say it probably does not because empower specifically calls out when you roll for damage, and since the damage is spread over 2 separate rolls you would have to expend another use of empower.

[Maxilian]

At lvl 17, BB does only 3d8 (with its normal attack) if the target moves, it does an extra 5d8

[Maxilian]

Booming Blade: @ Level 17: +2d8 on the hit, +3d8 if the target moves.

Some DMs think empower only work on the +2d8, but it should work on all of it.

Also spells that cause creatures to move, such as Command, count as forced movement via a recent tweet so Booming Blade is a bit... Meh now.


Edit===

Smite is not a spell and empower doesn't work.

Smite is trully not a spell, so it doesn't work, but the BB damage at lvl 17 is more (3d8) and the extra when the enemy moves is also more (5d8)

[Deleted]

Smite is trully not a spell, so it doesn't work, but the BB damage at lvl 17 is more (3d8) and the extra when the enemy moves is also more (5d8)

I meant to type 3d8 base and 4d8 on the moving damage. I have only myself to blame.


As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.

This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 thunder damage to the target, and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.

Base Bonus Damage: +0 (1st) + 1d8 (5th) + 1d8 (11th) + 1d8 (17th) = 3d8

Moving: 1d8 (1st) + 1d8 (5th) + 1d8 (11th) + 1d8 (17th) = 4d8

[MrFahrenheit]

I meant to type 3d8 base and 4d8 on the moving damage. I have only myself to blame.


As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects, and it becomes sheathed in booming energy until the start of your next turn. If the target willingly moves before then, it immediately takes 1d8 thunder damage, and the spell ends.

This spell's damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 thunder damage to the target, and the damage the target takes for moving increases to 2d8. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.

Base Bonus Damage: +0 (1st) + 1d8 (5th) + 1d8 (11th) + 1d8 (17th) = 3d8

Moving: 1d8 (1st) + 1d8 (5th) + 1d8 (11th) + 1d8 (17th) = 4d8

Thank you for the breakdown. I was reading an extra d8 into the melee damage at level 1.

I never considered smite a spell, I was more curious as to if any of the non-BB/GFB damage dice could be re-rolled with empower.

[bid]

Some DMs think empower only work on the +2d8, but it should work on all of it.
They're separate instances of "roll damage for a spell". Are you arguing it should apply to continuous damage spells?

[Deleted]

They're separate instances of "roll damage for a spell". Are you arguing it should apply to continuous damage spells?

Only the first time a damage is rolled. The difference between this cantrip and other continuous damage spells is that the continuous damage spells already had the Empower effect it. This cantrip has two separate damage rolls which Empower should work on both.

Booming Blade isn't continual damage. The two damage rolls are separate damage. One is just delayed and only maybe happens.

It would be like saying... Delayed Fireball doesn't get Empower because the damage happened at a later time.


====

Though, now that you mention it... That would be a way to help the Sorcerer keep up with the Evoker on damage and I doubt it would be all that unbalanced. HP damage is a dime a dozen in this game.

[bid]

It would be like saying... Delayed Fireball doesn't get Empower because the damage happened at a later time.
Well, you only roll for damage once. Why would there be an issue?

The question is: do you need to spend an SP on empower every time you roll for damage, or is a single SP enough for every further rolls of that spell?

The straight mechanic is "roll, if you're unhappy spend a point, reroll". Extending this to continuous damage spells means assuming "spend a point, roll, if you're unhappy reroll" is the same. That's a weaker reading.


OTOH ice knife... do you need to empower the 1d10 and 2d6 together or are they separate damage rolls? Can the player choose to roll them together or separately? There's some silly complications if you don't apply it to the whole spell over its entire damage.

[Deleted]

Well, you only roll for damage once. Why would there be an issue?

The question is: do you need to spend an SP on empower every time you roll for damage, or is a single SP enough for every further rolls of that spell?

The straight mechanic is "roll, if you're unhappy spend a point, reroll". Extending this to continuous damage spells means assuming "spend a point, roll, if you're unhappy reroll" is the same. That's a weaker reading.


OTOH ice knife... do you need to empower the 1d10 and 2d6 together or are they separate damage rolls? Can the player choose to roll them together or separately? There's some silly complications if you don't apply it to the whole spell over its entire damage.

I looked it over again and... Hot damn, Empower doesn't require you to be casting the spell to use it...

===
Empowered Spell

When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls. You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

===

Casting a spell doesn't factor in. You just need roll spell damage (unless there has been an errata).

Anytime you roll damage for a spell you can use 1 SP to reroll damage.

This means that Booming Blade would need 1 SP for the initial damage roll and then another 1 SP for the secondary damage!

BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING

Kinda, empower is kinda meh... But whatever.

Each time you roll damage for a spell you can use this metamagic. So with Ice knife you are rolling damage so that would be 1 SP and you can reroll either the 1d10 or the 2d6.

Booming Blade would, in total, cost 2 SP as it is each time you roll damage. You will always roll that spell damage separately.

Take something like Witch Bolt, now as a Lightning Dragon Sorcerer it deals 1d12 + Cha (reroll Cha Mod for 1 SP) each time you roll for damage.

You don't even need to have Empowered the initial spell.

Cloud of Daggers, anytime you roll that damage, you can use Empower for 1 SP.

===

I don't know how much extra damage this actually is... But it's a boost.

[joaber]

I looked it over again and... Hot damn, Empower doesn't require you to be casting the spell to use it...

===
Empowered Spell

When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls. You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

===

Casting a spell doesn't factor in. You just need roll spell damage (unless there has been an errata).

Anytime you roll damage for a spell you can use 1 SP to reroll damage.

This means that Booming Blade would need 1 SP for the initial damage roll and then another 1 SP for the secondary damage!

BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING

Kinda, empower is kinda meh... But whatever.

Each time you roll damage for a spell you can use this metamagic. So with Ice knife you are rolling damage so that would be 1 SP and you can reroll either the 1d10 or the 2d6.

Booming Blade would, in total, cost 2 SP as it is each time you roll damage. You will always roll that spell damage separately.

Take something like Witch Bolt, now as a Lightning Dragon Sorcerer it deals 1d12 + Cha (reroll Cha Mod for 1 SP) each time you roll for damage.

You don't even need to have Empowered the initial spell.

Cloud of Daggers, anytime you roll that damage, you can use Empower for 1 SP.

===

I don't know how much extra damage this actually is... But it's a boost.

I don't know that this worth 1 SP, you could use 2 for make 2 attacks and quick booming blade, giving way more damage than using empowered 2 times.
or you could twin BB, double damage for 1 SP.

[Deleted]

I don't know that this worth 1 SP, you could use 2 for make 2 attacks and quick booming blade, giving way more damage than using empowered 2 times.
or you could twin BB, double damage for 1 SP.

Or you could do both as Empower works on a spell, even if you use another MM.

If you twinned it, you could technically use Empower 4 times if you wish as you are rolling 4 separate spell damage rolls.

*shrug*

I don't care for how empower works, which is why I changed it in my homebrew, but as it is, it is useful.

Also, not every sorcerer runs twin. I prefer quicken and careful myself.

[joaber]

Or you could do both as Empower works on a spell, even if you use another MM.

If you twinned it, you could technically use Empower 4 times if you wish as you are rolling 4 separate spell damage rolls.

*shrug*

I don't care for how empower works, which is why I changed it in my homebrew, but as it is, it is useful.

Also, not every sorcerer runs twin. I prefer quicken and careful myself.

yeah, but this would cost 4 SP for empower + 1 for twin, which you don't have as sorcerer 3. Twin only is a good option if you have many spells of low level to do this, really not the case of evocations. But if you want to use BB, quick booming blade and buffs or debuffs (since you're pali 14/sorc3), twin is a real good option.

lets assume you could use 1 empower in all 7d8 (with RAW you're not), half of that (3d8) you got good results, so no reroll, the rest was 1-1-2-2 (6 total), that's why you rerolled. Now you get 4 new chances, with the avarage of 18 damage, you got +12 damage for 1 SP.
Twin BB can gives you (W + Mod + 1d8 (pali lvl 11) + 3d8 + 4d8 (if move)) x miss chance rate (normally less than 50%).
About that, unless you get a crit, woth more you convert spellslots in sorcerer points to quick or twin BB than use divine smite.