PF - Persistent Magical Effects and Dying

[unseenmage]

So, a query; say a character has Bull's Strength cast on them, then dies. Then is brought back before the Bull's Strength expires (somehow).
Does the magic go away when they die?

What about Dominate or Command Undead? Simulacrum for that matter.
Does the magic go away when the caster dies? When the subject dies?

What about controlling a Lich, Ghost, or Trompe L'oeil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/trompe-l-oeil-cr-1/)? Does the magical control expire when they die and their respective Rejuvenation abilies brings them back?

Have asked in (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21711402&postcount=313) the RAW Q&A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21713861&postcount=314) already. The answer was that there notoriously is no answer.
Posting this hoping for some precedent one way or another.

[Segev]

Part of this is answered by how you adjudicate it when the target changes from a valid target for a spell to an invalid target for a spell while under the effects of the spell. As an example, if you use dominate person on a 10th level orc fighter, and then you polymorph him into a hydra, do you retain control, or is the dominate person spell no longer effective because he's no longer a humanoid?

The reason this helps is because when something dies, it stops being a creature and becomes an object (a corpse).


Now, for things which simply cease to be, but later regenerate/rejuvenate, the ground is fuzzier. You could look at the psionic power time hop and ask if a creature time hopped forward has the duration of spells on him tick down while he's not there, or does the duration clock also get shifted forward?

Does the clock tick while he doesn't exist?

Next you have to decide if the rejuvenating creature stopped existing and resumed existing, or if the rejuvenating creature vanished and was restored in an old configuration. I think...given that rejuvenation has you come back with full hp and, presumably, full stats (if they were drained or something), this probably brings you back with all the incidental magical effects hanging on you gone. Not because of duration, but because the restoration process brings you back "clean."


Also, does resurrection or raise dead bring you back still sick with a disease which might've been responsible for killing you? I think not. So presumably, those also bring you back "clean."

[Geddy2112]

The dead condition states the following "The character’s hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

From the section on duration of magic "If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell’s duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration"

All of this leads me to believe that being dead does not stop a spell from being in place so long as the target is still valid. Certain spells might stop functioning for various reasons-obviously a corpse has no soul/mind to dominate so the target is now illegal and the spell would end.

I am certain that if the caster dies, a spell remains in place unless it requires concentration. So commanded undead would still be commanded under previous orders.

In the case of rejuvenation, the "target" was the ghost or whatnot that has since been destroyed, so any effects end that targeted the creature break. These creatures reform from other things(their home painting, phylactery, or whatever binds the ghost to the world) and are effectively created anew from these.

[unseenmage]

Part of this is answered by how you adjudicate it when the target changes from a valid target for a spell to an invalid target for a spell while under the effects of the spell. As an example, if you use dominate person on a 10th level orc fighter, and then you polymorph him into a hydra, do you retain control, or is the dominate person spell no longer effective because he's no longer a humanoid?
...



...
All of this leads me to believe that being dead does not stop a spell from being in place so long as the target is still valid. Certain spells might stop functioning for various reasons-obviously a corpse has no soul/mind to dominate so the target is now illegal and the spell would end.
...

I know the answer in 3.5 is that becoming an illegal target for a spell dies NOT end the spell.
Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) changes a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration.
If becoming an illegal target made the spell end then this spell would end as soon as it took effect.

[Knight Magenta]

Part of this is answered by how you adjudicate it when the target changes from a valid target for a spell to an invalid target for a spell while under the effects of the spell. As an example, if you use dominate person on a 10th level orc fighter, and then you polymorph him into a hydra, do you retain control, or is the dominate person spell no longer effective because he's no longer a humanoid?


Point of order, in pathfinder, polymorph effects don't change your type. So you would still be affected by the dominate person.

[Segev]

Point of order, in pathfinder, polymorph effects don't change your type. So you would still be affected by the dominate person.

Hm, fair. I was mixing my editions. Are there any effects in PF which change your type?

[Knight Magenta]

Hm, fair. I was mixing my editions. Are there any effects in PF which change your type?

There are things like the Monk level-20 ability that makes you an outsider I believe. Level 20 nature oracles can become a humanoid, animal or plant once per day.

[Psyren]

I know the answer in 3.5 is that becoming an illegal target for a spell dies NOT end the spell.
Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) changes a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration.
If becoming an illegal target made the spell end then this spell would end as soon as it took effect.

This might be a specific interaction for that spell though, rather than a general rule. In other words, the spell specifically changes your type for a prescribed duration. Whereas something like Control Undead doesn't change your type and so wasn't designed to persist on a target that does.


Hm, fair. I was mixing my editions. Are there any effects in PF which change your type?

Reincarnation... and Magic Jar?

[Segev]

I actually don't know what your Type is while possessing something via magic jar. The spell doesn't say whether you use your own or the body's.

[unseenmage]

Huh, just realized that if changing from an object to a creature made a spell effect cease to function then the Animate Dead & Create Undead spells themselves wouldn't function. Or for Permanent duration, Animate Objects wouldn't work. Is there a Permanent duration spell that makes a creature into an object so we can check the inverse of this?

Cannot for the life of me find a PF spell effect that changes a creature's type.

[Segev]

That does make sense.

And if they prevent type from changing, that eliminates much of the oddity that could otherwise arise. (Like changing a dragon into a human to use dominate person before turning it back...and retaining control.)

[Psyren]

Huh, just realized that if changing from an object to a creature made a spell effect cease to function then the Animate Dead & Create Undead spells themselves wouldn't function.

Those two are Instantaneous aren't they? There's no spell left to become ineligible by the time they stop being corpses (if they ever do.)


Or for Permanent duration, Animate Objects wouldn't work.

Animated Objects are still objects I believe, several of the construction options refer to them as such. (e.g.: "Faster (Ex, 1 CP): One of the objects' movement modes increases by +10 ft.") It's kinda like how golems and intelligent items are both technically still magic items despite being creatures.


I actually don't know what your Type is while possessing something via magic jar. The spell doesn't say whether you use your own or the body's.

It's a good thing we have a GM to sort all this out :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

Would have really liked to have found more precedent for either side of this discussion.

As it is the onus falls squarely of the GM to decide one way or another and that sits poorly with me. GMs in general have more than enough on their plates as it is.

[Zanos]

Posession (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/possession/) might also change your type? Not sure.

Personal opinion, also kind of 3.5ish:
Spells only check targeting when they're targeted. Creatures that move 30ft away from other subjects of haste don't have the haste break. Being dead is going to break the targeting on a lot of spells, but I only care about targeting when the spell is targeted. The spell runs it's course. You can still make yourself immune to a spell after it's cast on you. Mind blank will prevent a dominate person spell from affecting you, and being polymorphed into a type immune to mind-affecting will still help. You just can't violate the targeting conditions after the fact and expect a spell to just vanish.

So by my reading spells keep running on dead folk.