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Jimbob
2007-07-23, 04:35 AM
I am using a Hydra very soon against my players, so being a good DM I was reading up about hydras (very cool indeed ) but I got a bit stuck a Hydra has combact reflexes and a 12 dex. Now I am using a 5 headed Hydra just to set the scene. And under the description for combact reflexes under the Hydra write up it says....... Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

So does this mean, that all 5 can have 1 AOO a round or does each head get 2 AOO because of 12 dex giving it 10 AOO a round???

daggaz
2007-07-23, 04:38 AM
The hydra's special use of combat reflexes replaces the normal use, rather than stacking with it.

So it gets one attack with each head (which is still far better than what a normal monster would get with 12 dex and combat reflexes) but not two attacks with each (which is obviously way too powerful).

Jimbob
2007-07-23, 04:43 AM
Cheers Daggaz, I wont lie that I was holding out for 10 but 5 still rocks.

The Glyphstone
2007-07-23, 06:27 AM
Correct. A 5-headed Hydra who gets the chance to make an AoO would strike once with each of its heads, for a total of 5 bites on the sorry Rogue McSneakyStab that flubbed his Tumble check.:smallsmile: He will not, however, then get to make 5 more AoO against Fighty McChoppySlash who moves in to Sunder a head off.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-23, 08:24 AM
I thought it meant that it could get an AoO from each head. So it could have up to 5 AoO's in a round, but each would only be a single head. As opposed to ONE AoO where 5 heads attack the same target. That doesn't make sense because the multiattack would be a full attack and I think you only get simple attacks from an AoO.

Ikkitosen
2007-07-23, 08:31 AM
I thought it meant that it could get an AoO from each head. So it could have up to 5 AoO's in a round, but each would only be a single head. As opposed to ONE AoO where 5 heads attack the same target. That doesn't make sense because the multiattack would be a full attack and I think you only get simple attacks from an AoO.

But a hydra can attack once with all its heads as a standard action.

rollfrenzy
2007-07-23, 08:47 AM
I am really glad this post didn't happen last week. We just went up against a Cryo-hydra and our Dm only let him have ONE AoO each round. The Hydra would have TPK'ed otherwise (still almost did).

lukelightning
2007-07-23, 08:58 AM
I personally rule that instead of this Combat Reflex weirdness, the hydra can make one attack of opportunity per head per round...not all heads biting at once, but if it has 7 heads it can make 7 attacks of opportunity.

This is what I feel the hydra's ability is meant to represent; it is a constant threat to the area around it. Not "I get up from prone and all of a sudden 12 heads are biting on me" but "everyone in the area better be careful or they'll get chomped."

The Glyphstone
2007-07-23, 10:07 AM
Like I mentioned above, I've personally seen it the other way around...since hydras make an attack with all their heads at once as a standard action, I found it to make sense that they make a single AoO with all their heads at once as well. It makes more sense if you imagine the multiple heads as multiple creatures "sharing" a body - though that brings up more wierdness on its own, so it's probably best not thought about.

Charity
2007-07-23, 10:15 AM
But a hydra can attack once with all its heads as a standard action.

Though it does have a manky will save...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-23, 04:31 PM
How a Hydra or any other creature for that matter makes AoOs are fairly straightforward:


Attack
This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action. In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well.


In the case of the Hydra:


Hydra
...
Attack: X bites...

(X = number of heads)

So the Hydra uses all its heads for an AoO.


Then Combat Reflexes enters the picture...

Still things are fairly simply


COMBAT REFLEXES [GENERAL]
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.


The Hydra is listed with 12 DEX, so it gets to make one additional AoO (with all X heads at once of course)


The Hydra entry is made confusing by the piece of supposedly clarifying text under Combat Reflexes.


Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.


Taking this to be anything other than a clarification of the already existing rules described above (albeit rather poorly worded) would have to ignore said rules.
You would have to disregard the description of Combat Reflexes and the attack entry for the Hydra.

Even if we decide to that the sentence is still difficult to interpret.

Total Disregard:
"The Hydra gets X AoO's and we ignore the influence of the DEX modifier all together"

Hybrid: Disregard, but with DEX effect from Combat Reflexes.
"The Hydra gets X x (DEX bonus +1) AoO's."


Inserting a piece of poorly worded clarifying text and thereby radically changing the rules for AoOs and Combat Reflexes would be really poor design. If the intend was to change how AoO's work for a Hydra it should have been done with a special ability, not an existing feat.

I think I will give the MM the benefit of the doubt on this one.:smallsmile:

BrokenButterfly
2007-07-23, 06:15 PM
I am really glad this post didn't happen last week. We just went up against a Cryo-hydra and our Dm only let him have ONE AoO each round. The Hydra would have TPK'ed otherwise (still almost did).

Yeah, I was DMing an aquatic hydra against my players a while back, and I thought it only got two AoO per round. Even without me re-growing the heads on the thing, and it distributing its' attacks more or less evenly against the whole party, the players only just pulled through.

Fixer
2007-07-24, 09:36 AM
I would rule the hydra gets its regular AoO (1) plus one per additional head (X) per round. If a character provokes an AoO, the hydra may make one AoO. If a second player provokes an AoO, the hydra may make another AoO. So on and so forth until the hydra runs out of AoO.

Getting all the heads in for a single action that provokes an AoO doesn't make too much sense to me. How are 12 heads going to get in and attack someone just because they tried to stand up?

rollfrenzy
2007-07-24, 09:41 AM
Why would they give The hydra combat reflexes if it would only get ONE AoO anyways. Theres no fluff reason for it, so it must be for crunch.

The rules are terribly unclear, though.

I would houserule whatever feels right. IMO It would be One AoO per head.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-07-24, 09:55 AM
Why would they give The hydra combat reflexes if it would only get ONE AoO anyways. Theres no fluff reason for it, so it must be for crunch.

The rules are terribly unclear, though.

I would houserule whatever feels right. IMO It would be One AoO per head.

Why would the Carrion Crawler have the Track feat? It has no extraordinary sensory ability...or ranks in Survival? And possibly a negative wisdom modifier though I don't know about that part.

Some thing in this case. A somewhat odd choice of feat that doesn't really make sense and a DM needs to look at...maybe even replace with something better fluff/crunch wise.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-24, 10:51 AM
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.


That is not a free attack action, it is a SINGLE melee attack. To me that says one head bites, and then the clarification indicates that it is allowed additional AoO's for each head.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-24, 12:29 PM
Problem is that a Hydra uses all heads for a single attack.

Matthew
2007-07-26, 11:41 PM
I strongly disagree with this interpretation O Eye Tyrant.

Here is the reason:

This special line of text in the Hydra's entry:


Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.

In my opinion, this is why Hydras are listed as Attack: X Heads, which isn't the same thing as Single Attack: X Heads.

Therefore, Hydras without Combat Reflexes have 1 Attack of Opportunity with 1 Head, but because of the special line in their text gain a number of additional Attacks of Opportunity equal to the number of Heads it has. The net result is either [1 (Normal) + X (Heads) + 1 (Dexterity)] Single Attacks or [1 (Normal) + X (Heads)] Single Attacks.

Aquillion
2007-07-27, 12:02 AM
First, the simple part. A Hydra is clearly intended to get multiple separate attacks of opportunity each round. One person suggested that they get only one attack of opportunity using all their heads; while some of the other interpretations here are up for grabs, that one is almost certainly wrong.

Why is this clear? Otherwise, it wouldn't have Combat Reflexes at all. If it was intended to get only one attack of opportunity using all of its heads, it would be bizarre and deliberately confusing to represent that ability by giving it combat reflexes (a feat that usually does something completely different). Furthermore, if the hydra's Combat Reflexes feat was supposed to replace the normal effect of combat reflexes, it would obviously say so. Therefore, a hydra gets additional attacks of opportunity equal to its dex modifier (1), and can make attacks of opportunity even when flat-footed.

So, what does the wording "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity" mean? I don't see any other way to interpret it; the hydra gets two attacks of opportunity total, using all its heads for each. Yes, this sucks for players, but as others have noted it has its weaknesses (mainly an awful will save.) All those heads aren't much help when it's unlikely to save against a Deep Slumber or Charm Monster spell. If the party doesn't have the ability to throw around will-save based attacks, you should adjust the hydra's CR accordingly.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-27, 02:18 AM
I strongly disagree with this interpretation O Eye Tyrant.

You are not the only one. :smallamused:


Here is the reason:

This special line of text in the Hydra's entry:

In my opinion, this is why Hydras are listed as Attack: X Heads, which isn't the same thing as Single Attack: X Heads.

But the Hydra is a freak case. It can make a single attack (that include 5 attack rolls) with all its heads as a standard action.

And as the explanation of the monster entries say, the "Attack:" line is the attack used for a AoO's. No exception is mentioned in the Hydra's case.


Therefore, Hydras without Combat Reflexes have 1 Attack of Opportunity with 1 Head, but because of the special line in their text gain a number of additional Attacks of Opportunity equal to the number of Heads it has. The net result is either [1 (Normal) + X (Heads) + 1 (Dexterity)] Single Attacks or [1 (Normal) + X (Heads)] Single Attacks.


This interpretation has the added benefit of changing the effects of Combat Reflexes and leaving us in a state where we don't know how many AoOs we can make.

Faced with the choice between two interpretations I tend to go for the one that does not change how well-defined feats work and leave us with an unknown number of possible AoOs. :smallwink:


Aquillion: Your explanation is much clearer than mine. I may have gotten to technical too soon. (Something to save for the second date.)

Citizen Joe
2007-07-27, 06:55 AM
I went over to WotC website searching for some clarification. I found this little bit when describing half fiend/half hydra AoO:



Half-fiend/half-hydras can attack with all their heads without penalty, even if they have moved or charged during the round. They can make attacks of opportunity with all heads at the same time, as if each head was a separate attacker.


That particular half hydra was also part illithid, thus had a bunch of tentacles on each head for a total of 48 attacks:smallconfused:

I'm a rather conservative GM that whole thing makes me think a bunch of munchkins got turned loose in WotC HQ overturning tables and spraypainting graffiti all over the place.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-27, 07:05 AM
It is from the Elite Opponents article series (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a) so I do not really think it is that surprising that the the result is rather extreme.

The ordinary Hydra is not really that bad. If you want to go into melee with a 5-12 headed creature in the first place you'd better know what you are doing.

Hydra's are slow and stupid with poor will saves, which makes them an CR appropriate encounter even with 5-12 bites per AoO.

Ikkitosen
2007-07-27, 07:20 AM
Indeed. My group met one last week - my beguiler hypnotised it, everyone buffed up and got in close and we spanked it to death rather easily. As you say, Will saves ftw (or ftl for the hydra).

Citizen Joe
2007-07-27, 07:25 AM
I gotta research some sort of sticky blob armour spell.

Alligators have tremendous biting strength, but very little mouth opening strength. So, if some creature bites into a gluey blob, it wouldn't be able to open its mouth again until it clears the blob out. A portion of the blob would slough off the armour after the attack. This would probably have a minor effect on weapons (harder to swing with a big blob of glue on the end) but would be crippling to bite attackers.

I could see this as a wizard spell or a druid spell (some plants do just this to stop ants from eating their leaves).

Evil DM Mark3
2007-07-27, 07:29 AM
I vote for the senario of Des mod AoOs with number of head bites. Motly because to be honest I have seen Hydras go down from directed damadge to the body and it won't make it too powerful, fighter rouge flank, cleric and wizard blast. Fast healing does only so much.

Head severing is less often used.

Dausuul
2007-07-27, 08:22 AM
It is from the Elite Opponents article series (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a) so I do not really think it is that surprising that the the result is rather extreme.

Is anyone else amused that that article starts off with:

"If you've ever wondered what happens when devils use eroticism to corrupt mortals . . . that is not the focus of this article. The results of such activity, aside from corruption, are half-fiends."

...and then proceeds to describe hybrids of horned devil and tendriculos, and paeliryon and hydra? How does a horned devil breed with a tendriculos, anyway? I didn't know baatezu produced pollen...

Anyway, returning to the original topic, I read it as the hydra gets Dex+1 attacks of opportunity, and each AoO is made with all surviving heads. I don't know why they lumped that "all heads attack" business under "Combat Reflexes," it should be a separate hydra ability.

Aquillion
2007-07-27, 01:59 PM
Oh. For weaknesses, hydras also only have a speed of 20, so (on good terrain) most adventurers can outrun them if push comes to shove.

Matthew
2007-07-27, 11:35 PM
You are not the only one. :smallamused:

Bah, alright. That stupid article is the closest we can come to confirmation, I suppose. Still, I don't think I will ever be using the Hydra like that...

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-28, 02:42 AM
Bah, alright. That stupid article is the closest we can come to confirmation, I suppose. Still, I don't think I will ever be using the Hydra like that...

That is a difefrent matter entirely. :smallsmile:

Still, I don't think it is that bad really. The Hydra is one of those encounters that are easy when handled properly, but potentially devastating if not.
The AoOs fit that nicely, since even a fat hobbit can outrun a Hydra after breakfast (with a little luck), it is only appropriate that it can actually give them a suitable farewell. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2007-07-28, 04:28 AM
I doubt a fat Hobbit is going to suffer more from twelve heads than one...

Still, I don't really object to it so much on mechanical grounds (though there is some of that going on, since the Hydra can only potentially react to two Attacks of Opportunity during a round) as I do on account of my suspension of disbelief, which takes a battering with this one.

I like my Hydras unexpectedly emerging from hidden quarters, such as lakes and the like, and giving the Player Characters a bit of a fright (especially if they happen to be on a raft).