Fast Hands and "Use an Object". What counts?

[Dalebert]

It's very clear that activating a magic item is not "use an object" and thus a thief can't use Fast Hands to activate one. But what does?

Crawford has said that Healer's Kits count so that's a great incentive for theives to take the Healer feat. Not very ambiguous at all IMHO.

Alchemist's fire and acid came up in the RAW thread (question #72). There is some ambiguity there.

Discuss.

[Puh Laden]

I'd ere on the side of yes, since thieves already have it tough enough compared to the other roguish archetypes.

[Dalebert]

One thing I would point out is there is precedent for taking a non-attack action that then results in you making attacks. Attack spells, for instance, are the "cast a spell" action. They then both require and grant you an attack. Firebolt requires you to make a spell attack. Booming Blade requires you to make a melee attack.

These objects are under "adventuring gear"; not weapons. They then tell you it takes an action to use them and that when you use them, you make an attack roll treating them as improvised weapons. This is very similar to casting a spell where you then make an attack roll.

[JellyPooga]

My favourite use is for terrain manipulation; flipping tables and chairs to create difficult terrain, closing or opening doors multiple times in a turn and so forth. It's very much an opportunistic use of the ability and relies on a GM that enjoys furnishing his sets, but is great fun. Taking Tavern Brawler to go "full Jackie" is optional!:smallbiggrin:

[GGambrel]

Disclaimer: I plan to play a Thief in an upcoming campaign.

Use an Object

You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.

This reads to me like the Use an Object action is principally for using objects which say they require your action to be used, but may also be used for a second object interaction (flipping tables, grabbing unsecured items, etc).

In Other Activity on Your Turn we have the following section:

You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.

These two sections suggest to me that whenever you use a 'special object' (non-magical, description states they require an action to use) you must use your action (Use an Object) to do so, which would make their use compatible with the Thief's Fast Hands class feature.

I think Dalebert's mentioning of spells which call for making attacks is a good point in favor of the view that using Alchemist's Fire/Acid is an action which calls for you to make an attack rather than an Attack action, a subtle difference.

Anyhow, that's my view. Are there other points to the contrary that I should consider more carefully? And thank you to all who have posted.

[Arial Black]

One thing I would point out is there is precedent for taking a non-attack action that then results in you making attacks. Attack spells, for instance, are the "cast a spell" action. They then both require and grant you an attack. Firebolt requires you to make a spell attack. Booming Blade requires you to make a melee attack.

These objects are under "adventuring gear"; not weapons. They then tell you it takes an action to use them and that when you use them, you make an attack roll treating them as improvised weapons. This is very similar to casting a spell where you then make an attack roll.

Either the alchemist's fire uses the Attack action, or it is its own action: Throw Flask.

It is definitely not the 'Use An Object' action. If it were, then attacking with any 'object', even objects that are weapons, could use the Use An Object action, allowing Thieves to attack as a bonus action every round. This is certainly not what the Use An Object action is for! If you use the Use An Object action to make any kind of attack whatsoever then you're doing it wrong!

[Zalabim]

Either the alchemist's fire uses the Attack action, or it is its own action: Throw Flask.

It is definitely not the 'Use An Object' action. If it were, then attacking with any 'object', even objects that are weapons, could use the Use An Object action, allowing Thieves to attack as a bonus action every round. This is certainly not what the Use An Object action is for! If you use the Use An Object action to make any kind of attack whatsoever then you're doing it wrong!

Based on the rules that have been presented, I completely disagree with you. FWIW.

[Joe the Rat]

Based on the rules, hitting someone with an object is an Attack action. If it's not a weapon, it is an improvised weapon.

If the object is light, then you can throw it using two-weapon fighting, assuming you are taking an attack action. If you aren't taking the attack action, then do so to throw the flask, and cunning action the dash/disengage/use object to light oil/whatever the heck you need to do. Seriously, Thief can cunning action most of what you can do with a normal action.

[Dalebert]

... allowing Thieves to attack as a bonus action every round.

You mean like TWF already lets them do and gives them a 2nd chance to land their sneak attack while this method is very costly, doesn't use their proficiency bonus, and doesn't allow their sneak attack bonus?

OMG, so broken!

[Specter]

Alchemist's Fire and Acid are definitely good to go, but the hard part is using them without making an attack roll. Dropping them on the floor to create minitraps is something to be considered.

[Dalebert]

There's nothing wrong with making an attack roll when directions for using the object specify that you do so.

[Tanarii]

Ballbearings and Caltrops. Spreading Oil. Igniting Oil.

I certainly allow Alchemists Fire & Acid, since it appears to be an unspecified action, so I went straight to "therefore it must be use an Object". OTOH I think activating a magic item should qualify too ... especially since the primary beneficiary would be Thieves, and that's totally appropriate. Unfortunately SA or DMG (I forget which) nixed that.

But I think saying the action must be an Attack action with an improvised object is semi-reasonable, since it specifically says something about improvised objects. Although that opens the door to Extra Attack using it twice, doesn't it?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Right, if the attack used with holy water, acid etc. is accessed through Use an Object, that means Extra Attack classes do not get to be high-speed thing launchers. Does this mesh with the idea of thieves as property lobbers extraordinaire?

[GGambrel]

It is definitely not the 'Use An Object' action. If it were, then attacking with any 'object', even objects that are weapons, could use the Use An Object action, allowing Thieves to attack as a bonus action every round. This is certainly not what the Use An Object action is for! If you use the Use An Object action to make any kind of attack whatsoever then you're doing it wrong!

I do not think that the Use an Object action allows characters to use objects to make attacks, except for objects that "always require your action to use, as stated in their descriptions" and which specifically say to make an attack. You'll note that weapons do not have descriptions stating they take "an action" to use while a variety of objects listed under Adventuring Gear do, including Acid and Alchemist's Fire.

[Puh Laden]

This does bring to mind another question, how would you rule using acid and alchemist's fire as improvised weapons in an attack outside of their defined actions? Would you rule their flasks and vials don't break and they acquire different improvised weapon properties or would you rule it works the same or would it depend on the circumstance or roll?

[Arial Black]

When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise. Many monsters have action options of their own in their stat blocks. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.

The specific Actions In Combat listed in this chapter are not a complete list! These are just the most common, and the one's that everyone can use.

There are many actions that can only be used if a character has a special ability and that ability takes your action to use. For example, a 10th level berserker barbarian gets the Intimidating Presence ability, which says, "Beginning at 10th level, you can use your action to frighten someone with your menacing presence". This is not one of the actions listed in the combat chapter; it is its own action.

There are lots of actions like this; they are their own action, not one of the default actions in the combat chapter, as illustrated by this sidebar:-


Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.

One of these actions is the action required to throw a flask of Alchemist's Fire:-


This sticky, adhesive fluid ignites when exposed to air. As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact.

Note that this action is its own action, not one of the default actions in the combat chapter.

On the subject of the Use An Object Action:-


You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.

What does it mean by 'You normally interact with an object while doing something else'?


Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move. You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn. You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack. If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.

Ah, so this is what it means by "This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn" in the description of the Use An Object action!

Also:-


Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions. The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.

So you can Use An Object one time during your turn without needing to take the Use An Object Action, but if you want to use an object a second time then you must take the Use An Object Action for that second use. But the Fast Hands ability allows Thieves to use an object a second time by taking the Use An Object Action as a bonus action instead of their (normal) action!

Also, some objects actually need a full action to use anyway; no free action for you!

But lastly, and key to this debate, is the fact that "Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions", and Alchemists fire is just such a special object, it states that it uses your action to throw, and throwing it is its own action, not the Use An Object Action. The Fast Hands ability does not apply to throwing Alchemist's Fire.

[Arial Black]

Based on the rules, hitting someone with an object is an Attack action. If it's not a weapon, it is an improvised weapon.

If the object is light, then you can throw it using two-weapon fighting, assuming you are taking an attack action. If you aren't taking the attack action, then do so to throw the flask, and cunning action the dash/disengage/use object to light oil/whatever the heck you need to do. Seriously, Thief can cunning action most of what you can do with a normal action.

The TWF rules require (amongst other things) that you use actual weapons, so TWF does not work with improvised weapons which, by definition, are not weapons.

[Zalabim]

But lastly, and key to this debate, is the fact that "Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions", and Alchemists fire is just such a special object, it states that it uses your action to throw, and throwing it is its own action, not the Use An Object Action. The Fast Hands ability does not apply to throwing Alchemist's Fire.

But you already quoted "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action." Alchemist's Fire is a special kind of object that takes your action to use. It is not a Magic Item, which are explicitly excluded from being "Use an Object" when they require an action to use. You've quoted essentially all the rules that prove you wrong, and then decided to go on being wrong anyway. At least you aren't claiming you use the Attack action for it anymore.

[Deleted]

You mean like TWF already lets them do and gives them a 2nd chance to land their sneak attack while this method is very costly, doesn't use their proficiency bonus, and doesn't allow their sneak attack bonus?

OMG, so broken!

WotC, and many players, think that damage is broken. They also think if you allow abmaryial character to have too much versatility then that character is way too powerful, unbalanced, or broken.

It. Is. Hilarious.

Especially since we have seen for 3 editions now that this isn't the case.

[GGambrel]

I think the Use an Object action could be more clearly (and equivalently) worded like this:


You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. However you use the Use an Object action to interact with an object when any of the following conditions is true:


your use of the object requires your action (as stated in its description)
you have already interacted with an object this turn
doing so requires special care or presents an unusual obstacle (DM's discretion)


This rewrite combines details from the Other Activity On Your Turn section (PHB pg. 190) with Use an Object (PHB pg. 193). It does not include the magic item prohibition since that detail is in a different rule book. I think it clearly and accurately captures what Use an Object may be used to accomplish in the RAW, notably the use of any object whose description includes the phrase, "as an action," as described. I'd be interested in any feedback regarding this rewrite, particularly if you think its clarity or accuracy could be improved. Thanks.

[GGambrel]

This does bring to mind another question, how would you rule using acid and alchemist's fire as improvised weapons in an attack outside of their defined actions? Would you rule their flasks and vials don't break and they acquire different improvised weapon properties or would you rule it works the same or would it depend on the circumstance or roll?

Were I DMing, I think I'd still allow Acid and Alchemist's Fire to be used (as in their descriptions) with the Attack action. I wouldn't grant the 1d4 damage for them being 'improvised weapons' on the grounds that while they don't resemble any of the listed Weapons (in the Weapons table) they are still weapons in the general sense of being meant to harm targets (and already deal damage). They also have a different range in their description than improvised thrown weapons, which I think is a strike against them being treated as such.

[Arial Black]

But you already quoted "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action." Alchemist's Fire is a special kind of object that takes your action to use. It is not a Magic Item, which are explicitly excluded from being "Use an Object" when they require an action to use. You've quoted essentially all the rules that prove you wrong, and then decided to go on being wrong anyway. At least you aren't claiming you use the Attack action for it anymore.

Trust you to deliberately ignore the quoted rules which show otherwise:-

The specific Actions In Combat listed in the combat chapter are not a complete list! These are just the most common, and the one's that everyone can use.

There are many actions that can only be used if a character has a special ability and that ability takes your action to use. For example, a 10th level berserker barbarian gets the Intimidating Presence ability, which says, "Beginning at 10th level, you can use your action to frighten someone with your menacing presence". This is not one of the actions listed in the combat chapter; it is its own action.

There are lots of actions like this; they are their own action, not one of the default actions in the combat chapter, as illustrated by this sidebar:-


Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.

One of these actions is the action required to throw a flask of Alchemist's Fire:-


This sticky, adhesive fluid ignites when exposed to air. As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact.

Note that this action is its own action, not one of the default actions in the combat chapter.

You are attempting to define every action that involves the use of an object as the Use An Object Action. This is not the case, just like it's not the case that every action which involves an attack roll uses the Attack Action.

Throwing the flask is it's own action type, just like using Intimidating Presence or Countercharm or Turn Undead or Wild Shape or Stillness of Mind or Divine Sense or Primeval Awareness or Draconic Presence or Pact of the Blade or Benign Transposition or any number of other Actions in the game. Not all Actions use one of the default Action types in the combat chapter! You are trying to make one of those Actions-Use An Object-into some kind of God Action which applies any time an object is involved, just to try and abuse the Fast Hands ability.

Alchemist's Fire uses the same wording as all of the above abilities: you use your Action to use the thing. It is it's own action, not a variation of the Use An Object Action. If it were as you say, then using a magic item would also require the Use An Object Action, and we know for a fact that it doesn't!

[Tanarii]

You are attempting to define every action that involves the use of an object as the Use An Object Action. That's how I read the rule too. When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. Says so right in the rule. Applies to all objects that require an action for their use.

[Zalabim]

One of these actions is the action required to throw a flask of Alchemist's Fire:-

Note that this action is its own action, not one of the default actions in the combat chapter.

You are attempting to define every action that involves the use of an object as the Use An Object Action. This is not the case, just like it's not the case that every action which involves an attack roll uses the Attack Action.
You're trying to define every object that requires an action to use as its own type of action in contradiction of the rule that says "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action." By your argument, you cannot use Fast Hands to spill ball bearings, spread caltrops, anchor a climbing kit, use a healer's kit, set a hunting trap, close a hooded lantern, apply poison to a weapon, or light a torch with a tinderbox either.


You are trying to make one of those Actions-Use An Object-into some kind of God Action which applies any time an object is involved, just to try and abuse the Fast Hands ability. I am trying to apply the rules in the book.


Alchemist's Fire uses the same wording as all of the above abilities: you use your Action to use the thing. It is it's own action, not a variation of the Use An Object Action. If it were as you say, then using a magic item would also require the Use An Object Action, and we know for a fact that it doesn't!
We know the Use an Object action doesn't cover magic items that require an action to use because the DMG says exactly that in its section on Magic Items. In other words, I know the rules because those are the written rules, just like I know when an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.

[djreynolds]

I think if you are tossing something to a general area its fine.

If you want to hit something, perhaps a roll and then an action.

But there is no reason you cannot use cunning action first as a bonus action and then toss alchemist fire as an attack.

I believe the bonus action can come anytime with cunning action

I use my bonus action to dash and then attack someone, kill them, and the move off.

I would ask Crawford

[Arial Black]

That's how I read the rule too. When an object requires an action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. Says so right in the rule. Applies to all objects that require an action for their use.

Oh, you mean like when you use an object (such as an axe) to crack some orc upside the head, then we must take the Use An Object Action?

[silveralen]

Page 192


When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action

So any object which specifies you need to use an action to use it would qualify. Yes, even alchemists fire or acid. There is a reason those aren't listed in the weapon section proper.


Oh, you mean like when you use an object (such as an axe) to crack some orc upside the head, then we must take the Use An Object Action?

Pedantic and silly. Normal weapon usage and object usage are clearly differentiated. This is clearly a case of the specific rules for certain items (alchemist fire and acid) taking precedence, while the axe follows the normal normal rules for regular weapons. Alchemist fire and acid clearly call out the fact that you take an action to use them, at which point you make an attack with them.

[Tanarii]

Oh, you mean like when you use an object (such as an axe) to crack some orc upside the head, then we must take the Use An Object Action?
No. Because an Axe doesn't say you can take an action to crack a head upside the Orc in the object description. The only way to use an axe to crack an Orc upside the head is to use the Attack Action, or some other Feature or ability (like an SCAG cantrip).

[Arial Black]

The Use An Object Action is a default action to be used when the object itself doesn't have its own rules regarding its use. Like lighting a torch or all the other infinite things you could do.

It does not apply to things which already have their own rules written into their description, like class abilities, magic item use, and any object which has its own rules for use, like alchemist's fire.

This is illustrated in the rules, both in the Improvising An Action sidebar on p193, and in the section entitled 'Other Activity on Your Turn', which says:-


You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack. If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.

The italics (mine) are when you take the Use An Object Action. These are the things you do not normally need to use an action to do (drawing a weapon, opening a door) but if you want to do one of these things a second time in one round you need to take the Use An Object Action.

The bold part (mine) that 'always require an action to use as stated in their descriptions' is not referring to the Use An Object Action at all! These are the things that are their own action, not any of the general default actions in the combat chapter.

Alchemist's fire is indeed one of those special objects which has an action described in its own description that is required to use it. It does not fall under the general Use An Object Action any more than using a (magic item) object or using a (weapon) object.

[Tanarii]

This is illustrated in the rules, both in the Improvising An Action sidebar on p193, and in the section entitled 'Other Activity on Your Turn', which says:-Thats not what the rule says. This specific rule, the other activity rule, says it's normally no action to use an object interaction, an action to do it a second time, but some objects that require an action in their description always require an action even the first time. It is not saying that they are not covered by the Use an Object action.

[Dalebert]

Thats not what the rule says. This specific rule, the other activity rule, says it's normally no action to use an object interaction, an action to do it a second time, but some objects that require an action in their description always require an action even the first time. It is not saying that they are not covered by the Use an Object action.

Thank you. I was just about to say "Citation needed" for this:


The Use An Object Action is a default action to be used when the object itself doesn't have its own rules regarding its use. Like lighting a torch or all the other infinite things you could do.

It does not apply to things which already have their own rules written into their description, like class abilities, magic item use, and any object which has its own rules for use, like alchemist's fire.

Magic item activation is specifically excluded as being possible to do with Fast Hands, strongly implying that it does generally apply to object usage. As for using an axe as an action, I really don't see the problem. Again, since it's a weapon, how it's used is specifically described as requiring the attack action, and that's circumstantially generally good due to the extra attack(s) feature.