Beguiler or Spellthief???

[artimus261]

Hi there everyone, I need some help. I'm making a character for a campaign who I want to be thoroughly ensnaring and subtle. Playing a Jaebrin from the Monster Manual V and can't decide whether to go spellthief or beguiler. Both have that specialist vibe and the skills I'm looking for but obviously one's better off in the casting department and the other I could at least partially engage in combat. Halp. All 3.5 books are available to me and just can't figure it out. Need to know if one of them falls flat later or if its just a question of preference on my end

[Cosi]

Beguiler is way better than Spellthief. It's not even close. It's fairly easy to contribute to combat as a Beguiler. Just cast spells like silent image, suggestion, and charm monster. Use whatever resources you have to expand your spell list as much as possible. In particular, Arcane Disciple, Rainbow Servant, and Runestaves (in conjunction with UMD) are all very good.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another good option to expand your spell list is sandshaper. A level 1 dip adds a lot of decent spells not normally associated with Beguiler.

That said, why not a splash of both. Spellthief 1/ beguiler 19 is a perfectly valid build if you want a little bit of sneak attack damage on a beguiler. It's not a lot, but with equipment and craven you can get 3d6+20, not bad, and the ability to remove spell slots from casters even if it doesn't allow you to use the spells yourself very well.

[Mr Adventurer]

Beguiler is the way better class.

If you're mad on Sneak Attack for some reason, you could do Spellthief 1/Beguiler 9/Unseen Seer 10 with Master Spellthief feat.

[artimus261]

Another good option to expand your spell list is sandshaper. A level 1 dip adds a lot of decent spells not normally associated with Beguiler.

That said, why not a splash of both. Spellthief 1/ beguiler 19 is a perfectly valid build if you want a little bit of sneak attack damage on a beguiler. It's not a lot, but with equipment and craven you can get 3d6+20, not bad, and the ability to remove spell slots from casters even if it doesn't allow you to use the spells yourself very well.

Wow you know i've never seen sandshaper! i actually love that! the starting point is like right around a desert area in the setting so it would feel pretty perfect <3 not high enough to do it yet obviously but it would feel perfect after a few levels! not sure how touchstone would play out with the dm but im sure we can figure something out, might even give him a story hook or something to play with! sure it'll cost me a 9th level spell and the overcome SR upgrade but eh, fair trade

might even just go full sandshaper

[Cosi]

Another good option to expand your spell list is sandshaper. A level 1 dip adds a lot of decent spells not normally associated with Beguiler.

I wouldn't go Sandshaper. You don't want to lose casting, and unlike the Sorcerer you can expand your list with Divine Oracle, Contemplative, or Rainbow Servant.


If you're mad on Sneak Attack for some reason, you could do Spellthief 1/Beguiler 9/Unseen Seer 10 with Master Spellthief feat.

First, you don't need 9 levels of Beguiler there. You should be going Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 10/Mindbender 1/Arcane Trickster 4. That gets you more sneak attack, and also potentially Mindsight.

Second, you don't (necessarily) need the Spellthief. You can get buy with just Beguiler into Unseen Seer. Which is better depends on your relative value of marginal casting and spell stealing.

[Zaq]

Beguiler is undoubtedly stronger than Spellthief overall, but that doesn't mean that a Beguiler will automatically be more fun. It pretty much depends on what you're looking to gain out of the character.

Beguiler does tend to be easier on the stats, if nothing else, since they have INT-based casting (no idea why Spellthief is CHA-based, really) and therefore have more skill points to spend, which is a big concern on a sneaky skill-heavy character.

Basically, a Beguiler is a caster, and they never stop feeling like a caster (except when you're just rolling raw skill checks, but even then, you probably have some kind of magic backing you up). If you like feeling like a caster, then that's awesome. They do have a reputation for being "swingy," in that many Enchantment and Illusion spells are either extremely effective or nearly useless, depending on the situation, and it cannot be denied that they certainly rely heavily on those. That said, they do get some basic all-purpose spells that aren't Enchantment or Illusion, so they certainly do function even when their main tricks are less useful. I do think that they sometimes get a little awkward in combat once you've cast your primary encounter-altering spell or spells, since they don't really have a whole lot to do once their major effects are on the field, but no full caster is truly immune to that. (Aside from maybe a Druid who likes attacking while in Wild Shape, but whatever.)

Spellthieves definitely have some struggles to achieve parity with other classes, it's true. They're very feat-hungry, and anyone who wants to rely on Sneak Attack definitely needs a way of both reliably triggering Sneak Attack (whether that's Hide in Plain Sight, an extremely reliable flanking buddy, access to magic or similar effects that impose flat-footedness or other DEX-denying effects on your targets, access to sight-obscuring magic, etc.) and of surviving with a fairly squishy chassis. This is sometimes easier than others, but it can never be ignored entirely. Most tricks that work on a Rogue work on a Spellthief as well, though, which is fine so far as it goes.

Even more than typical Rogues, though, Spellthieves have to be extremely aware of their metagame circumstances. Basically, if you don't have magic to steal, then a Spellthief is just kind of a sad Rogue with some minor innate spellcasting. So you either need to know that you'll be fighting enemies who have access to magic that can be stolen (and remember that it's not just proper spells—you can also steal SLAs and even ongoing spell effects), or you need to know that your party will have at least one caster who won't mind you borrowing some spells from them. (And they shouldn't mind terribly much, unless you're at such a low level that they're in serious danger of running out of juice before the end of the day. If you borrow a spell from a friendly caster before combat starts and then unleash it after initiative is rolled, you're basically spending your action to give the friendly caster a free turn. They can get out their magic twice as fast without expending any of their build resources, and that's awesome.) If you don't have either of those things, you'd probably be better off with a Psychic Rogue if you want a character who can be described as "a sneak attacker with some magic on the side."

Definitely don't spend too many levels in anything that isn't Spellthief, though. People will point you at the feat Master Spellthief and will mention that it lets you steal higher-level spells without more Spellthief levels, but that's misleading. Master Spellthief lets you steal spells of higher level, but it doesn't let you hold (and therefore actually use) spells of higher level, nor does it advance your other features (like Steal SLA or Steal Spell Effect), so don't be fooled.

I personally think Spellthieves are a lot of fun if you have the circumstances that make them shine, since what they do is actually pretty unique. They just have a lot of moving parts and a lot of opportunities to stumble. But they definitely reward clever play, and they definitely bring something to the table that isn't likely to feel like the other characters your group normally sees.

tl;dr: Beguilers are full casters and are definitely more powerful. Spellthieves are harder to use, but they're fun if you can make them work because they're very different from other classes.

[artimus261]

damnit that's very appealing, in truth wasn't completely sold on full caster because i rly want my jaebrin to be able to use his bite effectively and the low bab of the beguiler really turns me off from that, but we do have other casters. in truth the whole party is kinda like that: Duskblade, Wizard, Bard, and Cleric.... with the idea that i could borrow a spell from literally ANY of them before a fight seems like a really powerful trait, especially giving me such a broad selection from those very different lists :U think you sold me zaq, in the end it feels like the extra casting and sneak attack will be a little more helpful, though i'll be relying on the others pretty heavily but the bard is also a caster/combat player so we could probably flank pretty often as a nice little tag team. really should have thought about all that

[ATHATH]

If you do go with Beguiler, take the Necrotic Cyst and Cerebrosis feats. They both add unique spells to your list (necromantic and summoning spells respectively), and Cerebrosis can be gained without a feat slot for the price of 1 point of constitution and a few thousand GP.

Godsblood Spellthief might be nice if you go the Spellthief-focused route. Keep in mind that although Master Spellthief will increase the maximum spell level that you can steal, it will NOT increase your capacity for said spells, meaning that you'd need more than one Spellthief level to steal anything higher than 1st level spells. Because of this interaction, I recommend NOT focusing on Spellsteal if you're going the multi-class route.

May I recommend taking the Trickster ACF for Spellthief?


Level: 1st.
Replaces: You lose 2 skill points per level. You gain only 4 skill points + Int modifier at each additional level (x 4 at 1st level). In addition, Appraise, Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Swim and Tumble are no longer class skills for you.
You do not gain the trapfinding ability at 1st level.
You do not gain additional sneak attack bonus dice at 4th or higher levels. Your spellthief sneak attack bonus damage remains fixed at +1d6. If you have other classes that grant more sneak attack bonus dice, you gain those as normal.
Benefit: You cast spells as a bard of your spellthief level, and your caster level equals your spellthief level (rather than half your spellthief level). You gain spells per day and spells known as a bard of your level, which allows you to cast spells at 1st level, unlike a typical spellthief. In addition to the spellthief spell list, you may select spells known from the bard spell list as well.

The Beguiler received a few minor extra abilities in a Dead Levels article as well:


Clever Wording (Ex): At 4th level, a beguiler starts mastering the ability to verbally transmit information to another character without others understanding it. A beguiler has to fail a Bluff check by 6 or more when delivering a secret message before false information is implied or inferred. Failure by 5 or more means a beguiler can't get the message across. See Bluff. These failed Bluff increments increase by 1 at 9th, 13th, 16th, and 18th level, when a beguiler has to fail a Bluff check by 10 or more before false information is implied or inferred.
Lively Discourse (Ex): At 12th level, a beguiler gains the ability to relay detailed messages, especially those that require specific locations, people and times. The DC is 30 to relay intricate messages with a Bluff check.
Piqued Hearing (Ex): At 17th level, a beguiler is so attuned to conversations with secret messages that noticing them becomes effortless. A beguiler within 30 feet of a conversation containing a secret message is entitled to a Sense Motive check to intercept the transmitted message as if actively listening for it. The beguiler must first be able to hear the conversation with a Listen check.

[Flickerdart]

The beguiler is much easier to build and play - it has a solid spell list that's pre-assembled for you, good skills, good class features. It's immediately obvious to any player what a beguiler is for and how to play it. A spellthief requires much more game mastery to untangle its multiple focuses (is it a sneaker? a caster? a DPS machine?) and figure out which of them your campaign needs and how to make yourself better at those things.

As the game continues, the beguiler is very dip-friendly. Most caster prestige classes progress your spellcasting for the first level, and qualifying for them is usually easy. Spellthieves like more spellthief levels, and that's about it. You will probably want to plan your entire build ahead of time, so you can pick up the right feats and equipment at the right levels.

In a party of casters (even duskblades get 5th level spells) you may also feel like you're falling behind when your character is not a primary caster. So I would recommend beguiler.

[artimus261]

I should mention that I'm really not much of a level dipper or multi classer. At most I go with two classes and one prestige. And or DM treats a lot of them as actual groups and such in the world so if we wanted to be one we'd have to track them down and convince them to teach us their ways and such.

[noce]

Personally, I'd go Beguiler 6 / Shadow Adept 1 / Beguiler 13.

This is because Shadow Adept 1 gives you three very very useful feats, is appropriate flavour-wise, and advances spellcasting. It is especially useful granting you a bonus against spell resistance.
Taking 19 Beguiler levels you will feel the sneaky caster flavour, and you won't lose skill points.
On the plus side, this split lets your advanced learning class feature happen on even levels, thus applying on the next spell level (I highly suggest Freezing Glance).

[Anthrowhale]

For a spellthief, something like Trickster Spellthief 9/Heartfire Fanner 1/Sublime Chord 2/HF 4/SC 4 gives full casting, the ability to steal (and use) all spells, and the ability to grant 3 arbitrary fighter feats to allies. It's a solid build with rare-but-fun abilities, particularly with casting companions.

[Thurbane]

Beguiler's have a lot of ways to expand their spell lists: Sandshaper (already mentioned), Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium), Arcane Disciple feat (requires Wisdom), Fiend Blooded PrC, Raiment of the Four (MIC - allows you to expend a spell slot to use a different effects), Robe of Mysterious Conjuration (allows you to expend spell slots to use Summon Monster), UMD + Runestaves (already mentioned)...

[Jack_McSnatch]

It's already been suggested numerous times, but why not do both? I've recently played some spellthieves, and to get the most out of the class you need to invest 5 to 7 levels, or even up to 9.

One spellthief level is basically useless, even with master spellthief. You can't steal SLAs, or energy resistance, or spell effects, and you can't store any of those stolen spells. 5 levels spellthief nets you all that and +2d6 sneak attack. 9 levels gets you +3d6. Pair that with the beguiler's ability to feint as a free action, and a good feat selection, and you have a good time in combat, even if you fight mundanes.

But when you fight monsters and mages, and all your tricks are available, you'l quickly start feeling like a badass.

[Zaq]

It's already been suggested numerous times, but why not do both? I've recently played some spellthieves, and to get the most out of the class you need to invest 5 to 7 levels, or even up to 9.

One spellthief level is basically useless, even with master spellthief. You can't steal SLAs, or energy resistance, or spell effects, and you can't store any of those stolen spells. 5 levels spellthief nets you all that and +2d6 sneak attack. 9 levels gets you +3d6. Pair that with the beguiler's ability to feint as a free action, and a good feat selection, and you have a good time in combat, even if you fight mundanes.

But when you fight monsters and mages, and all your tricks are available, you'l quickly start feeling like a badass.

You need lots of Spellthief levels to steal level-appropriate SLAs or level-appropriate ongoing spell effects. Those features aren't something you get and then ignore, unfortunately.

Also, side note: a Paladin's special mount is an SLA. If you ever happen to fight a Paladin . . .

[Zombimode]

Also, side note: a Paladin's special mount is an SLA. If you ever happen to fight a Paladin . . .

As amusing this thought is, it is the ability to call the special mount that is the SLA.
One of two things would happen:
- the spellthief calls for a special mount... but there is no creature answering this call, since the spellthief does not have a special mount.
- the spellthief calls for a special mount... and the paladins mount appears. Since the special mount is a free-willed creature that serves the paladin because it wants to, it will still serve the paladin.

[Rijan_Sai]

As amusing this thought is, it is the ability to call the special mount that is the SLA.
One of two things would happen:
- the spellthief calls for a special mount... but there is no creature answering this call, since the spellthief does not have a special mount.
- the spellthief calls for a special mount... and the paladins mount appears. Since the special mount is a free-willed creature that serves the paladin because it wants to, it will still serve the paladin.

Consider, though, that dismissing the mount is part of the same Sp ability...