Is Curse Bringer Overrated?

[Garresh]

I'm looking over various ways of building a Hexblade, and I'm starting to think that Curse Bringer is kind of unnecessary, if not outright suboptimal. I realize it does some absolutely insane damage, but when taken in the context of a build, and in terms of character options, I think it may be sort of a trap option.

Old blade pact builds always went for some combination of Polearm Master and Great Weapon Fighter, putting damage output by level 4 up to 20 damage per hit via GWM. The penalties to hit were counteracted by Devils Sight and Darkness, which was the basis of the build.

Thing is, this build was very greedy with invocations. It used up 2 of the 3 you get by level 5 with Devils Sight and Extra Attack, leaving only 1 left. That last one could be spent reinforcing your ranged damage with Agonizing Blast, or giving you some other utility options. If you grab curse bringer you have 0 invocations left for utility.

Worse, if you're going the traditional build, you're very likely to have already used one of your spell slots for Darkness, or possibly hex. This means you have ONE spell left for your curse bringer nuke. Using one of your coveted spells for a single target nuke seems almost painfully wasteful.

On top of that, the ability to reposition your hex only activates if you deal the killing blow. While that isn't too difficult in theory, in practice it is unreliable enough that it becomes a hard sell.

As amazing as the curse bringer nuke is, I'm finding that incorporating it into a hexblade build requires giving up so many other options to the point that I question its validity.

[LVOD]

I kind of agree (and said as much in the UA thread somewhere).

I think the argument against us is that its just an option you have, and its a very powerful option. It allows you to add on INSANE amounts of damage on top of a successful attack with no additional action cost. So against a single target, you're the boss.

Alternately, using spells require their own actions and have a chance for failure or to be circumvented, so they're more risky, but you still have the OPTION to do that.

I dunno. I still agree that it seems wasteful that you basically have to choose between "all i do is nova" and "i do all the warlock stuff, but I'm giving up an awesome ability to do it."

[Rhynear]

The problem with the ability is that you can use your Hexblades Curse once per short rest unless you take this invocation which leaves you using your major subclass ability less than 12% of the time which just feels off. Its the same with the Phoenix Sorcerer only being able to use their subclass once per long rest. I've picked a subclass, now I want to use that subclass. At least the Phoenix Sorcerer can use it for the entire fight.

Everything else on that ability is nice to have but since it specifies Greatsword it makes you more MAD, so that you now have to focus on 4 Ability Scores, and doesn't really give you much in return, so we go back to the old, tried and tested start with 1 level of Fighter build. So that you can dump Dexterity.

[joaber]

To me, those new invocations just show up how bad divine smite is, at least if you do the 6-8 encounters day. And all the problems with sorcerer low metamagic options when you see the lore master.

[Sception]

Curse Bringer potentiall takes your hexblade's curse from 'one enemy per rest' to 'one encounter per rest'. Unless you exclusively fight solo opponents, that's a big enough jump to make the Curse Bringer obligatory. And if you do exclusively fight big solo monsters, then the gigantic boost to spike damage makes it obligatory anyway.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The way I see it, there's finally a "nova" option on the table for BladeLocks, and it has massive damage potential.

It triggers after you hit, you can crit on 19 or 20 with Hexblade's curse, and with a 5th level slot that crit will do an extra 20d8 damage.

Hold Person is on the Warlock spell list, and any attack that hits a Paralyzed creature is an automatic critical hit. So there's your killer combo.

Totally worth the trade-offs, IMHO. My next character is gonna be a Hexblade, and while Cursebringer won't be my first pick, I'll definitely want to take it at some point.

[jaappleton]

The way I see it, there's finally a "nova" option on the table for BladeLocks, and it has massive damage potential.

It triggers after you hit, you can crit on 19 or 20 with Hexblade's curse, and with a 5th level slot that crit will do an extra 20d8 damage.

Hold Person is on the Warlock spell list, and any attack that hits a Paralyzed creature is an automatic critical hit. So there's your killer combo.

Totally worth the trade-offs, IMHO. My next character is gonna be a Hexblade, and while Cursebringer won't be my first pick, I'll definitely want to take it at some point.

Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 8

Quicken Hold Person, and swing away. :smallbiggrin:

[Deleted]

Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 8

Quicken Hold Person, and swing away. :smallbiggrin:

Lore Wizard needs to be in there somewhere so that Wis save is a Str, Int, or Cha save if need be.

Base Human, get str and int to 13 and then boost Cha and Con. Keep decent Con and Wis. 10 Dex minimum.

[Kileonhardt]

Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 8

Quicken Hold Person, and swing away. :smallbiggrin:

Hexerer? SorBlade? Hexblade Sorc needs a name now since it competes with Sorcadin.

[joaber]

hold person burn one of your slots, and you only have 2 most of your carrear, and you need an action for this. you could made 2 attacks with the two slots for the same damage.
Great if another guy have hold person, but is only in humanoids, hold monster is better but is a lvl 5 spell slot and has a chance to fail.

quick hold person is great, but cost 1 lvl 2 spellslot +2SP.

seriously, with advantage and the 19-20 to hit, you have 19% of chance to get a crit, you don't need hold stuff.

Some multiclass with hexblade looks really powerful, but almost all that building you need reach at least lvl 8 to things start work, some tables never reach that.
Yes, new ubersmite invocations are really powerful to a lvl 12+ char, but if you start at low levels, they are incredible balanced (to me).

I don't agree with OP about devil's sight, this doesn't work for melee, normally get more trouble to your party than for the enemies. (well, devil's sight with moon bow is probably a must have).

[skaddix]

In general Paladin has Better Defense: More HP, AC and Better Saves (Aura Of Protection) But Warlock: Better Smite and Slot Recovery. Plus with Warlock you don't have any real incentive to go 6, you can stop at 5. Which means you can do the Standard Warrior Dip for Heavy Armor and Fighting Style and slightly more HP assuming you don't want to rock Stone Sorcerer. Or get another level of Sorcerer for that 8th Level Spell Slot. Stone raises the question of how low can you get away DEX Score Wise.

Suppose the wider question is which Sorcerer Option is the Best or Paladin Option. We do have a rather extensive guide for Sorcadin biased towards 6th Level Paladin Dips. Which works great for us as a resource.

[Vanderhaust]

I find the fact that it is a great sword disappointing. It doesn't work with the Hex blade's Hex Warrior ability. Seems odd they would make an invocation specifically for the hex blade, something that the hex blade can't take full advantage of.

[jaappleton]

Curse Bringer isn't overrated. It allows for a nova, something Bladelocks typically lacked. It allows the Hexblade to compete with Fighters.

Let's compare them at lv5. I know its rough to compare, especially since it could be ANY Fighter. But humor me.

Hexblade Bladelocks have 2 3rd level slots every rest, 2 attacks, Hexbringer's Curse, and 1 Invocation free for whatever
Fighters have 2 attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind, and whatever archetype features

When you'd action surge (which does consume your resource.... action surge.) you're getting two more attacks. You're essentially replicating that. That's what it does. It replicates Action Surge. And you can argue it scales a hell of a lot better, as the Warlock gains more spell levels.

Curse Bringer brings the Hexblade more in line with frontline fighter single target damage by replicating effects of those classes.

[jaappleton]

I find the fact that it is a great sword disappointing. It doesn't work with the Hex blade's Hex Warrior ability. Seems odd they would make an invocation specifically for the hex blade, something that the hex blade can't take full advantage of.

Uncommon magic items should be.... Uncommon. Right? So hold off on picking it until you stumble across, or purchase, Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Sets your Strength to 19. So your Strength is +4 now. In the meantime, use a sword and shield only with Charisma. Look, I know it's not a perfect, ideal solution... But it's manageable. I find most DMs are willing to work with players on what kind of character concept that want to achieve. So if you talk to your DM in advance, the odds of coming across the Gauntlets increase dramatically.

"But I play in Adventurer's League!"
Hexblade is UA and isn't allowed in AL to begin with, so that argument just runs in circles.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I find the fact that it is a great sword disappointing. It doesn't work with the Hex blade's Hex Warrior ability. Seems odd they would make an invocation specifically for the hex blade, something that the hex blade can't take full advantage of.

The "nova" type Invocations which require specific pacts other than Hexblade also involve MADness. I think the great sword was a deliberate choice to keep the Hexblade at a power level more or less equal with the other Warlocks. None of them get to nova using their spellcasting stat, so this isn't just a Hexblade problem. It comes down to choosing your tactics. Or rolling some awesome stats, if you play that way. Or as some have pointed out, finding your character some Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

My D&D group uses the point buy method, so I resolved the issue by choosing a race that gets STR and CHA bonuses, and started with 16 in both. Actually he's a Dragonborn Revenant, so he's got a +1 to STR, CON, and CHA. Had to dump INT and WIS, which is going to hurt at some point, but 27 points only goes so far. [16/12/14/8/8/16]

[skaddix]

That reminds me if I make Sorlock. Lets say I am 14 Sorcerer/6 Warlock. I still get to Eldritch Smite with my 8th and 9th Level Spell Slots correct?

Sorlock means your an off tank at best and probably should be third in line on that front depending on party size and composition. Sorcadin you could do main or off.

Yeah does seem like you would have to sack WIS and INT. Since Dex does provide Initiative.

[Vogonjeltz]

Warlock 5 / Sorcerer 8

Quicken Hold Person, and swing away.

Would not get you the 5th level spell slots that 20d8 requires. I mean, yes, it's still 16d8, but still, not 20d8.

[jaappleton]

Would not get you the 5th level spell slots that 20d8 requires. I mean, yes, it's still 16d8, but still, not 20d8.

True, but it lets you wreck in a single round without needing another players help. And going Sorc nets you access to Haste, Fireball, etc.

[LVOD]

Is the benefit of being able to switch your curse really that big of a boon? It specifically doesn't reset the time limit, so you're still capped to ten rounds total. How many rounds does it usually take to finish off a guy? I mean you probably get 2-3 guys max in a minute, which i suppose is pretty significant compared to 1? I don't know.

In general i agree with the ogre gauntlet method

[skaddix]

It occurs to me that this would be so much better if they didn't rework Favored Soul. Sorlock would be even better because you only need 3 Levels of HexBlade Warlock with Pact of the Blade. Spend 1 Invocation on your Curse Bringer and pick Agonizing Blast or Devil Sight. Keep you 9th Level Spell Slot and keep your 4th ASI and don't pay the Extra Attack Tax. Now you don't get extra attack, you don't get medium armor, you don't get concentration free flight and you don't get a bunch of free bonus spells. You basically out Paladin the Paladin at that point.

[jaappleton]

Is the benefit of being able to switch your curse really that big of a boon? It specifically doesn't reset the time limit, so you're still capped to ten rounds total. How many rounds does it usually take to finish off a guy? I mean you probably get 2-3 guys max in a minute, which i suppose is pretty significant compared to 1? I don't know.

In general i agree with the ogre gauntlet method

I think it's a huge benefit to be able to switch the Curse because it can prevent the DM from doing the following:

"Ok, he can wreck one target pretty good when he uses that thing. Extra damage, improved crit, etc. So the fight will be these three enemies, and once he blows that Curse, enemy reinforcements arrive, and the REAL fight begins."

And that sort of stuff does happen. It's a bit of laziness on the DMs part, but it happens. DMs are human, after all. Even if they play Gnomes.

[jaappleton]

It occurs to me that this would be so much better if they didn't rework Favored Soul. Sorlock would be even better because you only need 3 Levels of HexBlade Warlock with Pact of the Blade. Spend 1 Invocation on your Curse Bringer and pick Agonizing Blast or Devil Sight. Keep you 9th Level Spell Slot and keep your 4th ASI and don't pay the Extra Attack Tax. Now you don't get extra attack, you don't get medium armor, you don't get concentration free flight and you don't get a bunch of free bonus spells. You basically out Paladin the Paladin at that point.

Either way, when I go Sorcerer, it lets me pick Bless. And to me, that's a hell of a thing to Concentrate on. :smallbiggrin:

[skaddix]

Oh don't get me wrong. Lets just say when they finalize these in official book. I am hoping the Favored Soul gets that Medium Armor and Extra Attack Back. WoTC seems pretty against bonus spells for Sorcerers despite everyone wanting it and Flight is gravy that you wouldn't be getting until level 17 anyway. I mean both Stone and Draconic give you the 1 HP and Bonus to AC. 1 HP alone is just flatly worse. '

Main point being Sorlock 17 Favored Soul/3 Warlock would be the best combo by far.

Now there is a real choice for which Sorc Origin is the best. Although I think the choice boils down to Favored Soul vs Stone Sorcerer. But of course you are correct Bless is Pretty Grand.

[jaappleton]

Oh don't get me wrong. Lets just say when they finalize these in official book. I am hoping the Favored Soul gets that Medium Armor and Extra Attack Back. WoTC seems pretty against bonus spells for Sorcerers despite everyone wanting it and Flight is gravy that you wouldn't be getting until level 17 anyway. I mean both Stone and Draconic give you the 1 HP and Bonus to AC. 1 HP alone is just flatly worse. '

Main point being Sorlock 17 Favored Soul/3 Warlock would be the best combo by far.

Now there is a real choice for which Sorc Origin is the best. Although I think the choice boils down to Favored Soul vs Stone Sorcerer.

I highly doubt that'll happen. The older FS was designed by Rodney Thompson, one of the final things he worked on prior to leaving WOTC to be a 'lorebuilder' at Bungie. It was also one of the first UA articles, wasn't it?

What I'm getting at is, I think the design philosophy has been changed a bit since then.

[skaddix]

Yeah it has Broken is now reserved for the Wizards.

What do you think about Stone vs Favored Soul for 14 Levels?

[jaappleton]

Yeah it has Broken is now reserved for the Wizards.

What do you think about Stone vs Favored Soul for 14 Levels?

You mean, as far as multiclassing with a Hexblade? So FS or Stone 14 / Hexblade 6?

Or just how I feel about a 14th level Stone or FS?

[DracoKnight]

What do you think about Stone vs Favored Soul for 14 Levels?

Stone is better in combat at 14th level...Favored Soul is probably better socially, and has better spell selection.

EDIT: I know I'm not the one you asked, but that's just my 2cp :smalltongue:

[skaddix]

No feel free to comment. Not restricted. Yeah FS has more spell choice freedom. Stone makes you better in melee.


You mean, as far as multiclassing with a Hexblade? So FS or Stone 14 / Hexblade 6?

Or just how I feel about a 14th level Stone or FS?

Well as I noted I honestly don't see the benefit in getting Hexblade 6. I personally take another level in Sorcerer and get my 8th Level Spell. I suppose that allows you to get Holy Aura or AMF as an FS. I suppose you could do the customary 1 Level Fighter Dip for Fighting Style and Heavy Armor.

But yeah 14 Stone vs 14 FS with 6 Hexblade to keep it simple. Unless you really want to make the case for some other combination.

[jaappleton]

If you're doing a one-shot, or know your table is going to reach such levels to where Hexblade 6 / Sorc 14 is possible...

My favorite Sorc for it is actually Phoenix. I really think its actually the best option to keep the Hexblade upright. The lv6 feature saves you from death once per long rest, and lv14 keeps you healed during a battle. Assuming 20 Charisma, you're healing yourself whenever you roll fire damage from a spell... Like Searing Smite.

But strictly between Stone and FS? I don't like Stone past 6, and even then, I don't love it. It uses your reaction, which is fine. But no Shield spell. I think the Hexblade has more than enough offense. I'd rather have the Hexblade's 'Roll 4 or above and attacks miss you' ability than Stone's abilities past 6. So I'd go Hexblade 14 and Sorc 6 at that point.

FS? That's another story. Access to SO many more spells. It adds more versatility and adaptability based on the threats you encounter as you level, as the campaign goes on. "Levels 1-7 we're in this area fighting these people, levels 7-12 we're here fighting these people, etc". So I think it's a much better choice to level up with. Quickened healing to keep yourself standing via Cleric spells, access to the Sorc list... Its lv14 is a bit 'meh' but the Divine Magic feature is so damn good it makes up for it.

[Deleted]

I applaud the number of posts in a row that have a red wizard as their avatar.

I thought someone was talking to themselves and was kinda confused.

[King539]

Not to mention the fact that it stops you from using CHA to attack.

[skaddix]

If you're doing a one-shot, or know your table is going to reach such levels to where Hexblade 6 / Sorc 14 is possible...

My favorite Sorc for it is actually Phoenix. I really think its actually the best option to keep the Hexblade upright. The lv6 feature saves you from death once per long rest, and lv14 keeps you healed during a battle. Assuming 20 Charisma, you're healing yourself whenever you roll fire damage from a spell... Like Searing Smite.

But strictly between Stone and FS? I don't like Stone past 6, and even then, I don't love it. It uses your reaction, which is fine. But no Shield spell. I think the Hexblade has more than enough offense. I'd rather have the Hexblade's 'Roll 4 or above and attacks miss you' ability than Stone's abilities past 6. So I'd go Hexblade 14 and Sorc 6 at that point.

FS? That's another story. Access to SO many more spells. It adds more versatility and adaptability based on the threats you encounter as you level, as the campaign goes on. "Levels 1-7 we're in this area fighting these people, levels 7-12 we're here fighting these people, etc". So I think it's a much better choice to level up with. Quickened healing to keep yourself standing via Cleric spells, access to the Sorc list... Its lv14 is a bit 'meh' but the Divine Magic feature is so damn good it makes up for it.

Where you getting Searing Smite From? Hexblade gives you Branding Smite. Although the Pyromancer aint bad if your DM allows. Smack anyone who hits you a melee attack with Fire Damage that goes through Resistance.

[jaappleton]

Where you getting Searing Smite From? Hexblade gives you Branding Smite. Although the Pyromancer aint bad if your DM allows. Smack anyone who hits you a melee attack with Fire Damage that goes through Resistance.

Sorry, I confused the spell list of the Stone with it. TOO MANY UA ARTICLES OPEN AT ONCE! :smalltongue:

But Branding still deals Fire, I believe. Principle still applies.

[Vanderhaust]

Uncommon magic items should be.... Uncommon. Right? So hold off on picking it until you stumble across, or purchase, Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Sets your Strength to 19. So your Strength is +4 now. In the meantime, use a sword and shield only with Charisma. Look, I know it's not a perfect, ideal solution... But it's manageable. I find most DMs are willing to work with players on what kind of character concept that want to achieve. So if you talk to your DM in advance, the odds of coming across the Gauntlets increase dramatically.

"But I play in Adventurer's League!"
Hexblade is UA and isn't allowed in AL to begin with, so that argument just runs in circles.

So class design should take items into effect?

I'm not saying it isn't manageable, it just seems odd that they would have two contradictory abilities in one subclass.
It's like "Cool i can use my charisma for melee because I'm a hexblade, except not for the one specific weapon that i can conjure because I'm a hexblade"

[skaddix]

No Branding Deals Radiant sadly so that combo isn't going to work. You still get the resurrection though. Of course you only get 1 HP back. Not Ideal.

FS does give you unmatched versatility thanks to being able to Heal. It also lets you fill in anywhere in the party and act as the secondary option.
You can be the off tank, secondary healer, main melee damage dealer or a main ranged blaster.

As for Stone I don't know Aegis is fine in my book. Considering you can just place it on the tank and stay back blasting before choosing when the moment is right to come into melee range. Aegis doesn't have a limit and you can basically rack up free bonus damage every time the Tank takes a hit. You get plenty of smite options. Get Better Defensive Stats. Does Stone Edge work on your Eldritch Smite? Boom more free damage.

So FS gives better versatility and lets you fill more roles as you can always pinch hit. But Stone does have its charms.

I have to agree with the argument your main features should not invalidate each other. I mean sure you mostly focus on CHA and CON. But DEX still provides Initiative. And its not WIS or INT Scores are irrelevant.

[Kileonhardt]

As for Stone I don't know Aegis is fine in my book. Considering you can just place it on the tank and stay back blasting before choosing when the moment is right to come into melee range..

AKA I can sit back and blast and when the BBEG is on his last legs reaction port in and pick up the killing blow :smallbiggrin:

[jaappleton]

No Branding Deals Radiant sadly so that combo isn't going to work. You still get the resurrection though. Of course you only get 1 HP back. Not Ideal.

FS does give you unmatched versatility thanks to being able to Heal. It also lets you fill in anywhere in the party and act as the secondary option.
You can be the off tank, secondary healer, main melee damage dealer or a main ranged blaster.

As for Stone I don't know Aegis is fine in my book. Considering you can just place it on the tank and stay back blasting before choosing when the moment is right to come into melee range. Aegis doesn't have a limit and you can basically rack up free bonus damage every time the Tank takes a hit. You get plenty of smite options. Get Better Defensive Stats. Does Stone Edge work on your Eldritch Smite? Boom more free damage.

So FS gives better versatility and lets you fill more roles as you can always pinch hit. But Stone does have its charms.

The "teleport to the target" feature of Stone can be replicated by a Hexblade invocation. Not the reaction to attack, though. Still, my mistake on the Phoenix part. Take that one off the list, not a good mix.

As far as which to level with? I'm really in love with the FS, and it's how I plan to go after Hexblade 5. I've got a lv3 one ready to play starting tomorrow.

If I'm already going to be a higher level? Stone really does add a LOT to the damage output abilities.

[skaddix]

Aegis is Unlimited. Gets placed as a Bonus Action. Allows you to port in as a Reaction to the attacker. Last a Minute. Allows for easy Flank. Boosts the survivability of your ally against physical damage. And lets you chip in a Free 1d10 or 2d10 of force damage.

[jaappleton]

So class design should take items into effect?

I'm not saying it isn't manageable, it just seems odd that they would have two contradictory abilities in one subclass.
It's like "Cool i can use my charisma for melee because I'm a hexblade, except not for the one specific weapon that i can conjure because I'm a hexblade"

I understand its not ideal. Should some tweaking be considered? I think so, yes. Honestly, I'd be fine with Hexblade Warrior saying "At lv11, you can use this benefit with all weapons". Or make it an Invocation, available to Hexblades at lv5. Or 7. Or makes it part of Hexblade Warrior at 5.

This prevents dipping Hexblade. At that point, its an investment. And I'm sure there's tons of multiclass builds still available that can abuse that. "So with that, at Hexblade 5 and Paladin 12, you can-" Yeah, that's 17th level. Know what else happens then? Spells like Wish and Meteor Swarm.

[skaddix]

The "teleport to the target" feature of Stone can be replicated by a Hexblade invocation. Not the reaction to attack, though. Still, my mistake on the Phoenix part. Take that one off the list, not a good mix.

As far as which to level with? I'm really in love with the FS, and it's how I plan to go after Hexblade 5. I've got a lv3 one ready to play starting tomorrow.

If I'm already going to be a higher level? Stone really does add a LOT to the damage output abilities.

Well true but you only have 3 Invocations. 1 has to be Curse Bringer, 1 has to be Thirsting Blade. So you really only have one and I rather spend that on Agonizing Blast or Devil Sight, Personally. Probably Agonizing Blast considering Darkness while great is kinda hard to abuse unless you are running with a party setup around it. And of course pretty much everybody got Dark Vision.

Well there is starting level and late game to consider true enough.

Another thing is I think party size plays a role. I give the FS the edge in a Smaller Party where you need every character to fill multiple roles. The FS certainly makes a great jack of all trades with the ability to pick up healing duties. Stone though has the edge in a larger party where everyone can afford to be more of a specialist.

Personally I think I will go with Stone 15/5 Hexblade. I really don't think hound is worth trading a potential 8th Level Spell Slot for.

So probably 1 Stone > 5 Hexblade > 14 Stone (or however far we get). At least mid levels probably later.

[jaappleton]

Oh, you definitely pick Agonizing Blast with the third. The ability to Quicken EB before running in with Curse Bringer's Greatsword? Yes. Yes, please.

I play at a 2 player table at the moment. So... Yeah, for me, it's FS and its not even close. I'm praying we can live long enough to reach lv6 so I can start filling out multiple roles.

[joaber]

why do not go as shadow sorcerer?

devil's sight with darkness for 1 SP, all the rest of your spellslots can be for Curse bringer and you get your agonizing blast.
Hound of Ill Omen, expensive, but gives desadvantage in ST is ridiculous.

[nilshai]

It's idiotic that THE Hexblade Pact Invocation doesn't work with your Hexblade's class feature (charisma to att & dmg).

But it's actually far more stupid, that Hexblade gets 4 (!!!) different features that all compete for the Bonus Action: Hex/Smite Spells, Hexblade's Curse, Shadow Hound, Burning Hex/Chilling Hex. These subclass/invocations just don't fit together.

Also the Burning Hex/Improved Pact Weapon invocations are just another annoying invocation tax and the class doesn't remove a single one that was already in place. Welcome to your 4 invocations tax sublcass...if you'd go melee, which you won't, because you will use Eldritch Blast with Hexblade's Curse.

Sorely disappointed. Wish they would think about their stuff just a little bit.

[skaddix]

Fits Thematically So Plus for that.

You don't have to worry about missing Devil Sight or getting Darkness, Free Rez as long as not by crit or radiant, Hound gives Disadvantage to One Target and you can step through shadows at 120.

Mostly didn't mention because I forgot it existed. I Say the main disadvantage is your not tankier and cant heal yourself. No bonus spell options either

[joaber]

It's idiotic that THE Hexblade Pact Invocation doesn't work with your Hexblade's class feature (charisma to att & dmg).

But it's actually far more stupid, that Hexblade gets 4 (!!!) different features that all compete for the Bonus Action: Hex/Smite Spells, Hexblade's Curse, Shadow Hound, Burning Hex/Chilling Hex. These subclass/invocations just don't fit together.

Also the Burning Hex/Improved Pact Weapon invocations are just another annoying invocation tax and the class doesn't remove a single one that was already in place. Welcome to your 4 invocations tax sublcass...if you'd go melee, which you won't, because you will use Eldritch Blast with Hexblade's Curse.

Sorely disappointed. Wish they would think about their stuff just a little bit.

Isn't idiotic, is intentional. Invocations are already powerful, avoid the MAD problem with all in Cha would be OP. Smites are always useless, since they use concentration too, and the damage doesn't compare with the invocations. Hex, curse and the hound you don't use in all your turns.

I don't think buning hex is useful at all, max of 5 damage for your bonus action? No one need that.
Inproved pact weapon you'll only get if you don't find an magic item, and you can change that later if you find.

[jaappleton]

Isn't idiotic, is intentional. Invocations are already powerful, avoid the MAD problem with all in Cha would be OP. Smites are always useless, since they use concentration too, and the damage doesn't compare with the invocations. Hex, curse and the hound you don't use in all your turns.

I don't think buning hex is useful at all, max of 5 damage for your bonus action? No one need that.
Inproved pact weapon you'll only get if you don't find an magic item, and you can change that later if you find.

Agreed completely with Burning Hex. 5 for your BA? No thanks. Not worth it.

I also think that the majority of the Smite spells available are largely trap options. Curse Bringer's Smite all the way. I think its worth knowing only either Wrathful or Branding smite, and that's it. Not both, you don't have the spells known available for both. Radiant is always a good damage type to keep in your back pocket. Wrathful is sneaky good because it induces Fear, but requires a CHECK to save out of... Which is made at Disadvantage, because Fear. Then again, it's also only good for telling someone to go screw, because you don't want your Hexblade's Curse target running away. You want to be right up next to the target, slicing and dicing.

The damage on those Smite spells scales very poorly, too, especially when compared to just using the Curse Bringer ability. Using a lv2 slot, what's better? 3d6 or 4d8? At lv3, 4d6 or 6d8? I'm no mathematician, and it's easy to see.

Take Shield and pass on the other Patron spells until Blink.

[skaddix]

Eh most Melees need 3 Stats. Full Spellcasters can get away with 2 usually. You need CHA, STR, CON and some DEX. Meanwhile Lore Master Only needs INT and CON. I am fine with needing 2 great stats and 1 Good One. But 2 great and 2 good is MAD.

Eh I go with Wrathful Smite. Fear is good. Psychic like Radiant is also rarely resisted. But even better its a Bonus Action. You can still get your spell, Eldritch Blast or melee attack off. Shield is great.

Although Considering I am going the Stone route I will probably end up with both.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's idiotic that THE Hexblade Pact Invocation doesn't work with your Hexblade's class feature (charisma to att & dmg).

But it's actually far more stupid, that Hexblade gets 4 (!!!) different features that all compete for the Bonus Action: Hex/Smite Spells, Hexblade's Curse, Shadow Hound, Burning Hex/Chilling Hex. These subclass/invocations just don't fit together.

Also the Burning Hex/Improved Pact Weapon invocations are just another annoying invocation tax and the class doesn't remove a single one that was already in place. Welcome to your 4 invocations tax sublcass...if you'd go melee, which you won't, because you will use Eldritch Blast with Hexblade's Curse.

Sorely disappointed. Wish they would think about their stuff just a little bit.

It's so you can have more than one build option using the same archetype.

[jaappleton]

Eh I go with Wrathful Smite. Fear is good. Psychic like Radiant is also rarely resisted. But even better its a Bonus Action. You can still get your spell, Eldritch Blast or melee attack off. Shield is great.

Although Considering I am going the Stone route I will probably end up with both.

I kinda want us to play in a game together. Two HexSorcs, one Stone and one FS. I bet we'd cover a lot of ground.

Except... y'know. Dex and Wis. :smallbiggrin:

[skaddix]

I kinda want us to play in a game together. Two HexSorcs, one Stone and one FS. I bet we'd cover a lot of ground.

Except... y'know. Dex and Wis. :smallbiggrin:

Well I use Point Buy Mostly, Sometimes Straight Rolling. But its variable you could get lucky and Be Roy with all your stats above average. But you could also be Belkar. I think PB is the most common these days though which means you need CHA, STR and CON. And get to choose between DEX and INT being average while Dumping WIS every time. I like Half Elfs though. So I tend to make it so WIS is the only negative. But yeah we need a Monk I guess.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The Shield spell is another Hexblade option I'm not sure what to do with; it has a somatic component and that's a problem. At first level I'm planning to take full advantage of the ability to use CHA for attack and damage with a single-handed weapon; so far so good. But do I equip a shield for +2AC, or keep a hand free to cast spells all the time and just use Shield (and a spell slot!) for +5AC when I need it? If I was playing a variant Human I'd start off with the Warcaster Feat and not worry about it, but my Hexblade is a Dragonborn. I'll probably hold off getting Shield until I get the Warcaster feat at 4th level.

[skaddix]

Well it depends on what else is in your party if you got multiple melee fighters you should be fine. If its just you in front I go with the Shield (Board)...It occurs to me this can be very confusing lol.

[Rhynear]

On the topic of Bonus Actions:

Hexblades Curse
Your Hexblades Curse only costs a bonus action when you apply it to an enemy for the first time as after that, when you kill them with Curse Bringer, you may move it immediately to another target. I assume that this means that it doesn't cost any kind of action because if you kill them with your Bonus Action, or have already used your Bonus Action that turn you wouldn't be able to move it otherwise.
Hex
You only use Hex at the beginning of the fight or when you've killed and enemy so it will only use up your bonus action very rarely and the most interference will be when you are applying your Hexblades Curse at the beginning of a fight.
Smite spells
The smite spells are pretty much useless for you and you may as well not cast them, there are many better spells for you to be using and you don't have the spell slots to waste on casting a smite spell every few rounds without running out.
Burning/Chilling Hex
Burning and Chilling Hex are both free damage if you don't use your bonus action that round, I understand both of them existing for flavour but they need to redo burning at least as it is just worse than Chilling. They are though free damage every round with no save or attack roll and no chance of the enemy escaping it.

[jaappleton]

On the topic of Bonus Actions:

Burning/Chilling Hex
Burning and Chilling Hex are both free damage if you don't use your bonus action that round, I understand both of them existing for flavour but they need to redo burning at least as it is just worse than Chilling. They are though free damage every round with no save or attack roll and no chance of the enemy escaping it.


But are either of them actually worth the Invocation slot?

[jaappleton]

But yeah we need a Monk I guess.

Tranquility Monk rounds out that group incredibly well.

[LordVonDerp]

I think the argument against us is that its just an option you have, and its a very powerful option.


Judging from this I'd say it's very overrated. The problem is that it requires you to use a greatsword, which is a two-handed weapon and those are basically useless for a hexblade.

[LordVonDerp]

Burning/Chilling Hex
Burning and Chilling Hex are both free damage if you don't use your bonus action that round, I understand both of them existing for flavour but they need to redo burning at least as it is just worse than Chilling. They are though free damage every round with no save or attack roll and no chance of the enemy escaping it.
How is chilling hex better than burning? Burning may only hurt one target, but it's guaranteed to hit one target, chilling might not hit anything if enemies spread out.

[Zalabim]

But it's actually far more stupid, that Hexblade gets 4 (!!!) different features that all compete for the Bonus Action: Hex/Smite Spells, Hexblade's Curse, Shadow Hound, Burning Hex/Chilling Hex. These subclass/invocations just don't fit together.
You forgot the one that lets you teleport to the target of your Hexblade's Curse.


Also the Burning Hex/Improved Pact Weapon invocations are just another annoying invocation tax and the class doesn't remove a single one that was already in place. Welcome to your 4 invocations tax sublcass...if you'd go melee, which you won't, because you will use Eldritch Blast with Hexblade's Curse.

Sorely disappointed. Wish they would think about their stuff just a little bit.
In all, I counted up to 7 invocations you could have at once if you wanted to take all the hexblade and pact of the blade invocations.

Agreed completely with Burning Hex. 5 for your BA? No thanks. Not worth it.
Fun comparison: 1d4+5 at 65% chance to hit averages 5 damage. Though burning hex would really deal more damage if it did 1d8, since you add the curse's damage bonus to your damage rolls against the target.

Basically, at least a weak attack can stack on damage bonuses.

[tieren]

Still, my mistake on the Phoenix part. Take that one off the list, not a good mix.


If you could squeeze in 2 levels of loremaster wizard you could make all spells fire spells.

[Sception]

How is chilling hex better than burning? Burning may only hurt one target, but it's guaranteed to hit one target, chilling might not hit anything if enemies spread out.

Your hexblade's curse target is your enemy, and by default is within five feet of itself. Looking at burning hex, it's pretty clear chilling hex isn't intended to deal damage to the curse target, but as written it absolutely does, and even as such is still kind of weak for an invocation slot.

[Zalabim]

There's an invocation for +1 to hit and damage with your pact weapon, which if you aren't using a heavy str weapon is already less damage than your Eldritch Blast probably does to begin with. The floor for value in an invocation is awfully low, especially for one that has no level requirement.

However it can be made abundantly clear when an effect that originates from a creature includes that creature in its effect. I'll compare Hail of Thorns and Sword Burst when I have time.

[Rhynear]

The only problem with the Burning/Chilling Hex abilities is that they don't scale. If you have 16 Charisma at Level 2 and are using a longsword in 2 hands for d10 damage then it deals almost half of your damage per round when you account for accuracy.

Longsword = 1d10 + 3 + 2 for 10.5 average damage
At 65% hit chance = 6.825 damage per round

Burning/Chilling Hex = 3 damage per round

It increases in percentage as enemies get harder to hit and decreases as they get easier to hit, but at level 5 it suddenly becomes a lot less useful:

Longsword = 1d10 + 4 + 3 for 12.5 average damage
Twice at 65% hit chance = 16.25 damage per round

Burning/Chilling Hex = 4 damage per round

Suddenly its gone from doing almost 50% more damage per round to doing less than 25% more and has basically halved in value.

[Fireflinger]

(Sorrry to Necro this thread but I was thinking about making a hexblade warlock and came across this thread) So am I missing something? Everyone assumes Curse bringer and Hexblade warrior don't work together and that you'll need STR but I just don't see why thats the case.

Additionally, whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

You can create a greatsword forged from silver, with black runes etched into its blade, using your Pact of the Blade feature. If you reduce a target cursed by your Hexblade's Curse to 0 hit points with this sword, you can immediately change the target of the curse to a different creature. This change doesn't extend the curse's duration. When you hit a creature with this weapon, you can expend a spell slot to deal an additional 2d8 slashing damage to the target per spell level, and you can reduce the creature's speed to 0 feet until the end of your next turn.

[PhantomSoul]

This thread is from before Xanathar's Guide to Everything, so they're discussing the UA version of the Hexblade (and associated invocations).