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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Paladin - a Rework



GrayDeath
2017-02-16, 04:03 PM
Hello y`all.


Since the Paladin Class, despite being Iconic (in Good, good and Bad ways^^) is rather lackluster even in the area it should shine within (as seen in the A-Game Paladin needing as much optimization as it does, and every casterdin taking SotAO or being a Sorcadin) I have long tried to come up with a solution that does not involve convoluted rings to jump through.

And no, "play a Cleric/Crusader/etc" is not it. While these undeniably work, some times I (granted, more often a friend of mine^^) simple feel the need to play a paladin .... but good (not just Good).

So I came up with some House Rules, revised them, made Changes to the Class, undid them, and overall collected a lot of different semisatisfiying solutions to make the Paladin Grand(er).

This thread is meant to accomplish two things: Me getting feedback for said Houserules, and you to post alternatives/your own solutions.

Again: "Just use Class XYZ, its flatout better" is not what I am looking for. ^^



Basics: based on the (already improved) Pathfinder Paladin

The Paladin: Houserule 1: The Code.

Alas, many a player and GM suffered due to the Codes being either to vague or too specific, being both to narrow and and leaving far too much to interpretation.
No more.
Well, I hope ^^


Alignment: The Paladin needs to be Lawful Good.

If he ever loses the lawful Aspect of his Alignment, he does not fall, but loses his Smite Ability and cannot further advance as a paladin until he is Lawful Good again.

if the Paladin either willingly commits a TRULY Evil Act (needs to be something Big, obvious and above all WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY) or loses his Good Alignment (in small steps by doing small evilish acts, yes these do not make him autofall) he falls as regularly.

he may fall if he commits more than 3 violations of his Code within a week, willingly and knowingly. This is up to DM and Player Decision beforegame.

He always falls if he commits a gross violation of his Code (for example lying to save himself, knowingly letting others die for his sake, helping an Evil being for gain or destryoing something good etc)


The new and simplified Paladin Code:

Actively upholding any one of the Codes in situations where there is risk involved in doing so grants the Paladin +2 to all Rolls (multiple Codes upheld do not stack!).

1.: Speak the Truth. (Whatever the Paladin says must be true. He does however not have to say anything^^, reformulated due to interpretation problems with The Centre, thank you)

2.: Protect those that cannot protect themselves. (if doing so would mean CERTAIN Death for the paladin, or force him to abandon an already running good (and Good) Quest, he can deny the call to do so. This may or may not count as a minor evil act, it does not count as a broken oath. If its only a large amount of danger, denying means breaking the Code.

3.: Strive to further good (and Good) in all your deeds. Being charitable, helpful, friendly, open and leading by example are as much part of this Code as is doing Good Quests, saving G(g)ood beings and generally being a g(G)ood guy. If you have the choice of doing something good and something else, choose good. This does not mean ALL THE TIME without rest and regard to yourself!

4.: Fight Evil in all its manifestations, from great and Terrible to petty and small in the fitting way This does not necessarily mean physically. It also includes teaching others how to see evil as what it is, discussing philosophy or interceding in a wrongful execution. Important to notice here is that it recognises varying degrees of evil (and Evil) and hence adapted measures against them.



Each paladin chooses one of the 4 Codes to be his "Centre". This is the Part of the COde that defines the why and how of the Paladins path to paladinhood, and hence is of immense importance.
Every violation of "the Centre code" that is done willingly and knowingly causes him to fall.

However as long as he is actively upholding said Centre Code (protecting the Weak, spreading truth where it is to his disadvantage even, fighting evil and spreading Good), he gains an additional Bonus to all Rolls equal to his Paladin level/4 (round up) and cannot be magically or otherwise, compelled to violate it.


Class Mechanics:

As Pathfinder Paladin, except: add 1 Knowledge Class Skill of your Choice. 4+Int Skillpts/Level
Casting is as the Bards in all respects except for the List.
Modify the original Paladin List by adding one Spell from the Clerics List to each level (all Spells specifically bearing Evil Descriptors, all Summoning Spells and all Transmutation Spells with targets other than self as well as Spells that specifically depend on channeling an entity/God/etc are not eligible, if in doubt, ask the GM),with Level 5 and Six Spells being chosen from a limited Cleric List (See above for restrictions)

with the following 3 "Subtypes" of Paladin:

Each paladin gets a choice at Level 1 which Archetype he is. This cannot be changed (short of Retraining if allowed)


Blessed: The most pure, Noble and rare of the Paladins. Devotion and Souls so pure, it alone gives them Power.

Basic Bonus: +1 to all Saves.
Level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20: Gain +5 to any one elementel Resistance. Stacks with itself and any other Form of ER.

Variable Bonus: Choose one: gain +1 to a single save of your choice every odd level or gain +1 to a single Attribute of your choice at Levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20.


Chosen: The Paladins Chosen by a specific God or Goddess, in addition to exemplifying Good and Law, they also represent their God.
Can only be chosen by Good and Lawful neutral Gods.

Basic Bonuses: USS the better of charisma or wisdom as casting star in all aspects. Gets one additional Spell known of level 1 at Character Level 8 and Level 2 at Character Level 14.

Variable Bonuses: Choose one Domain at Levels 1, 7 and 17, each time gaining the Domain Ability and the Spells as if a Cleric of the respective Level (yes, this includes Spells of Level 7-9, but only in the single Domain Slot). These Domains must be Domains the God that Chose the Paladin posesses!



Hardened: These Paladins have seen it all. The good, the bad, and the ugly. And still choose to walk the hard Path and fight the Powers that be (Evil^^)


Basic Bonuses: Count as Fighter for Fighter Bonus Feats. Gain one FBF at Levels: 3, 6. 9, 12, 15, 18 and 20
Hardened paladins treated as having all Feats of the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Tree they could qualify for at their level while wielding any Weapon that deals Holy Damage/Positive Energy Damage.

Varable Bonuses: Choose one: either the Number of Smites/Day is doubled OR in Addition to Smiting Evil you can also smite Chaos. Attention: the Doubling is applied after bonuses to Smite Number/Day due to feats!





More mechanical Changes will be edited into this post later on (as soon as I have more time to sort through, probably the weekend).

But these should do for now.


Attention: I intend the Paladin, depending on build and Type, to be very high T4 or low T3, nothing more!

Thanks for reading (and any and all participation).

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-16, 06:04 PM
Many questions.

However as long as he is actively upholding that Code, he gains an additional Bonus to all Rolls equal to his Paladin level/4 (round up) and cannot be magically or otherwise, compelled to violate it.
Meaning of "actively upholding" is unclear in this context. What does it mean to be "actively upholding" Speak no lie? Add a line in each Code to give examples.

Each paladin chooses one of the 4 Codes to be his "Centre". Every violation of that code that is done willingly and knowingly causes him to fall.
This line conflicts unclearly with this one:

he may fall if he commits more than 3 violations of his Code within a week, willingly and knowingly. This is up to DM and Player Decision beforegame.

He always falls if he commits a gross violation of his Code (for example lying to save himself, knowingly letting others die for his sake, helping an Evil being for gain or destryoing something good etc)



Basic Bonus: +1 to all Saves.
Level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20: Gain +5 to any one elementel Resistance. Stacks with itself and any other Form of ER.

Chosen Bonus: Choose one: gain +1 to a single save of your choice every odd level or gain +1 to a single Attribute of your choice at Levels 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20.
What are a "basic bonus" or "Chosen bonus"? You need to define these terms before you use them, or remove them and leave their meaning implied. Naming of "Chosen bonus" conflicts with the "Chosen" subtype.


Basic Bonuses: Spell progression switches to that of the Bard (new Spells/Level, Spells/Day, list stays the Same).
The Paladin spell list only goes up to 4th level spells. What happens when you need to pick spells to learn for 5th and 6th level spells? Also, when do you access these spells? 1st level? Do you still take the -3 to caster level? You have


Chosen Bonuses: Choose one Domain at Levels 1, 7 and 17, each time gaining the Domain Ability and the Spells as if a Cleric of the respective Level (yes, this includes Spells of Level 7-9, but only in the single Domain Slot).
At what level do you get domain spell slots? This seems to be an additional set of spells prepared, where you have only the domain spell slots fo a Cleric.


Basic Bonuses: Count as Fighter Level -3 to gain Fighter Bonus Feats (same List, at the same Level). Gain FBF accordingly.
Clarify when you get bonus feats- ideally explicitly, i.e. "You get a Fighter Bonus feat at levels X, Y, Z, etc.".

You should probably go for an editing pass- you have incorrect capitalization in a number of places, some broken BBcode, inconsistent spacing, etc.

Verdict: This is Tier 4- capable of doing one thing quite well, but ineffective outside it. Without careful domain choices, they have little-to-no out-of-combat options other than healbotting, and are actually less versatile than the original paladin in some ways, since they can't prepare different spells each day. It's most analogous to the hexblade. Compared to the original 3.5 paladin, it's a definite improvement, but most of those improvements are from Pathfinder.
Depending on domain options, Chosen could shoot up to Tier 2 if they grab one of the better domains- Summon domain for all those sweet, sweet summon monster x spells, Destruction for a doubled-up smite ability and Implosion, Luck domain for defensive options (including Protect:Energy, stomping all over Blessed even more) and Miracle, etc.

GrayDeath
2017-02-16, 08:02 PM
Well, that happens when you put up.something while tired.....;)

I.will.edit it tomorrow, and answer your questions. You are entirely.correct about me defining first and mentioning second, my bad, will be corrected.

As for the bard reference: there are actually two versions I have, sadly I did not fully explain either, grmph....

One question though: how.is something that, aside from blessed, adds options less flexible than what it builds.upon?

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-16, 09:29 PM
What I was referencing with the slight loss of versatility was that by picking Bard spellcasting, you are forced to select constant spells known. An ordinary paladin can prepare some spells some days, and other spells other days. While Chosen is clearly more powerful due to Domain access and much more plentiful spells, the flexibility it grants is much closer to that of the Sorcerer than the wizard, as the paladin is pushed into taking spells which will remain generally useful in many cases rather than picking the specific spell for the job.

GrayDeath
2017-02-17, 12:45 PM
Ah, I see.

Yes, you are correct. That is intentional however, as I always thought the Paladins minimal spells/Day but reltively free choice to be the wrong direction.

Better to give him a decent width (and good Power and Flexibility on Top if Chosen Archetype) than trying to build an Adept into its chassis.

btw editing in progress, answers will follow. :)

GrayDeath
2017-02-17, 01:00 PM
Many questions.

Meaning of "actively upholding" is unclear in this context. What does it mean to be "actively upholding" Speak no lie? Add a line in each Code to give examples.


Done




This line conflicts unclearly with this one:


I hope its clearer now.





What are a "basic bonus" or "Chosen bonus"? You need to define these terms before you use them, or remove them and leave their meaning implied. Naming of "Chosen bonus" conflicts with the "Chosen" subtype.


Reworded.

Basic Bonuses are the Bonuses all Paladins of the respective Type get, Variable Bonuses are those they have to CHOOSE, and hence are mutually exclusive.



The Paladin spell list only goes up to 4th level spells. What happens when you need to pick spells to learn for 5th and 6th level spells? Also, when do you access these spells? 1st level? Do you still take the -3 to caster level? You have


My bad, I failed to implement either of the 2 Variants I had for the above.

Remedied.



At what level do you get domain spell slots? This seems to be an additional set of spells prepared, where you have only the domain spell slots fo a Cleric.


They are, and you gain the Domain Slots as if you were a Cleric, as implied. Could have been worded clearer though, so lets rephrase: "For the sake of these Domains, your Character count as a Cleric in all aspects".
So yes, you cast your normal Paladin Stuff spontaneously (I even am thinking about giving that part to all the other types as well), but have access to 3 domains.



Clarify when you get bonus feats- ideally explicitly, i.e. "You get a Fighter Bonus feat at levels X, Y, Z, etc.".


Done.





Verdict: This is Tier 4- capable of doing one thing quite well, but ineffective outside it. Without careful domain choices, they have little-to-no out-of-combat options other than healbotting, and are actually less versatile than the original paladin in some ways, since they can't prepare different spells each day. It's most analogous to the hexblade. Compared to the original 3.5 paladin, it's a definite improvement, but most of those improvements are from Pathfinder.
Depending on domain options, Chosen could shoot up to Tier 2 if they grab one of the better domains- Summon domain for all those sweet, sweet summon monster x spells, Destruction for a doubled-up smite ability and Implosion, Luck domain for defensive options (including Protect:Energy, stomping all over Blessed even more) and Miracle, etc.

That was intentional.

btb though: I have already almost decided to redo the spellcasting for all Types, not just Chosen paladins. See first Post for new Variant. :)