Elemental Touch, Combat Patrol and Bloodrager

[Korahir]

I just like to fool around with build ideas from time to time and this time I wanted to build a Bloodrager because I mostly end up playing full casters. So I wanted to switch that but I wanted to still be able to control the battlefield.
So I came up with following:
Level 7
Either Tiefling with claws or Catfolk with claws (16 charisma, 16 Strength (17 at 4, 18 at 8), 18 Dex, 12 Con, 8 wis, 8 Int)
Aberrant Bloodrager
Feats:
1: Dodge,
3: Mobility,
5: Rime Spell
6(bloodline):Combat Reflexes
7: Combat patrol

Trait: Magical Lineage (elemental touch) and 1 more (i.e. get a new class skill like stealth)
skills: handle animal, perception, spellcraft (and possibly stealth via favoured class)

Important Spells:
1: long arm, enlarge person (shocking grasp)
2: elemental touch

So fully buffed (aberrant bloodline, long arm, enlarge Person) my threat range is 20 feet with my claws. 25 feet with combat patrol (and 20 feet reach). Everyone that triggers an AoO gets hit by one elemental touch claw for 1d4+3+1d6+ Fort vs fatigue + 2 round entangled.

At higher levels I could go for a Dazing version with Spell perfection.
Simple question: is this viable or should I just stick with a polearm and trip because all i do is fancy footwork?

[Akal Saris]

It looks like a fun build to me.

If you take the Blood Conduit archetype, it grants Improved Trip at level 1 (the rest of the archetype isn't that great I think). So that could be one way to get some additional flexibility in the build, especially when you are low on spells/day or haven't had the chance to cast Elemental Touch yet.

[upho]

I really like the idea of using Rime Spell (I assume) to entangle with elemental touch AoOs, but I'm afraid I don't see how this is going to be viable before 11th level. Unfortunately, the bloodrager just isn't much of a gish, despite the spell list and certain class features and archetypes doing their best to make you believe otherwise. So your elemental touch base DC of 15 will only rarely be enough to fatigue anything besides perhaps the weakest mooks you'll face, and before you get Greater Bloodrage, you simply won't have the spell slots or the action economy boost required to make the combo useful in practice. I mean, most combats will already be pretty much decided by the time you've cast the spell and set up your first Combat Patrol.

Similarly, I cannot see how the save dependent Dazing Spell is supposed to actually make the many required investments worthwhile. Especially since an enemy must first provoke an AoO from you, which you then must land, before you can even force the save against your weak DC. So in total, I believe the chances of you dazing an enemy strong enough to actually pose a real threat will be very small.

Additionally, I think Combat Patrol is rarely worth the three feat slots, and virtually never for a build which doesn't both get plenty of bonus feats and have additional strong synergizing uses for the poor prerequisite feats.

But if you get the otherwise least useful options (like Rime Spell and elemental touch) as close to 11th level as possible, replace the claws and Combat Patrol with unarmed strikes and say a kusarigama with Ascetic Style (and perhaps Dragon Ferocity plus 1 - 2 levels of Master of Many Styles Monk and Combat Style Master), I think the "elemental entangling AoO" control combo could give you a truly useful and very unique combat style. Fully buffed (aberrant bloodline, long arm, enlarge Person) your unarmed strikes will initially have an even greater reach of 30', and at the most, you'll only need to spend a swift action (to enter the Ascetic Style stance) to activate the whole combo for as long as you rage.

[Korahir]

I really like the idea of using Rime Spell (I assume) to entangle with elemental touch AoOs, but I'm afraid I don't see how this is going to be viable before 11th level. Unfortunately, the bloodrager just isn't much of a gish, despite the spell list and certain class features and archetypes doing their best to make you believe otherwise. So your elemental touch base DC of 15 will only rarely be enough to fatigue anything besides perhaps the weakest mooks you'll face, and before you get Greater Bloodrage, you simply won't have the spell slots or the action economy boost required to make the combo useful in practice. I mean, most combats will already be pretty much decided by the time you've cast the spell and set up your first Combat Patrol.

Similarly, I cannot see how the save dependent Dazing Spell is supposed to actually make the many required investments worthwhile. Especially since an enemy must first provoke an AoO from you, which you then must land, before you can even force the save against your weak DC. So in total, I believe the chances of you dazing an enemy strong enough to actually pose a real threat will be very small.

Additionally, I think Combat Patrol is rarely worth the three feat slots, and virtually never for a build which doesn't both get plenty of bonus feats and have additional strong synergizing uses for the poor prerequisite feats.

But if you get the otherwise least useful options (like Rime Spell and elemental touch) as close to 11th level as possible, replace the claws and Combat Patrol with unarmed strikes and say a kusarigama with Ascetic Style (and perhaps Dragon Ferocity plus 1 - 2 levels of Master of Many Styles Monk and Combat Style Master), I think the "elemental entangling AoO" control combo could give you a truly useful and very unique combat style. Fully buffed (aberrant bloodline, long arm, enlarge Person) your unarmed strikes will initially have an even greater reach of 30', and at the most, you'll only need to spend a swift action (to enter the Ascetic Style stance) to activate the whole combo for as long as you rage.

Thanks for your advice. Yeah, Combat Patrol is the weak point and the save DC the next weak point but how would you blend monk and bloodrager. I don't get your point about 11th level? Why is it relevant for my build?



It looks like a fun build to me.

If you take the Blood Conduit archetype, it grants Improved Trip at level 1 (the rest of the archetype isn't that great I think). So that could be one way to get some additional flexibility in the build, especially when you are low on spells/day or haven't had the chance to cast Elemental Touch yet.
Wow, how did I overlook that. Thanks a bunch. I'll try to figure out how to improve upon that.

[upho]

Thanks for your advice. Yeah, Combat Patrol is the weak point and the save DC the next weak point but how would you blend monk and bloodrager.The reasons for a monk MoMS (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) dip are:

"Free" Ascetic Style (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style) AS with a monk reach weapon is currently the only way to give your elemental touch attacks proper threatening reach, and MoMS gives it as a bonus feat at 1st, without you needing to meet prereqs.
Fuse Style You can boost your ASUS (=Ascetic Style unarmed strikes) with another combat style feat (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/style-feats), which MoMS gives for free at 2nd, along with the most common prereqs (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike) for later feats in the chain. Some style feats, like the mentioned Str-to-damage and charge boosting Dragon Style (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) + Dragon Ferocity (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat), are really great for a bloodrager, but normally too costly due to the prereqs. Fuse Style replaces Flurry of Blows, which you don't need and cannot use with armor anyways.
Saves The monk has all good saves, so a dip gives a bloodrager a pretty significant and very welcome defensive boost, especially if you want to prioritize a high Cha instead of Wis to boost your spells/day.
If you don't need Stunning Fist, I recommend you blend the MoMS with the Sohei (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei) archetype, giving you the ability to act in surprise rounds. And if you need Stunning Fist and dip 2 levels, I'd instead combine the MoMS with the Monk of the Iron Mountain (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-sacred-mountain), giving you Toughness and +1 NA instead of Evasion (which won't be of much value unless you're planning to be Dex based).

Or where you looking for tips on a build order which incorporates a MoMS dip?



I don't get your point about 11th level? Why is it relevant for my build?Because you get Greater Bloodrage (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager#TOC-Greater-Bloodrage-Su-) at 11th, which lets you cast elemental touch as part of the free action to enter bloodrage and have the spell last for as long as you rage:

"In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect."

Without that free casting of elemental touch, I believe it simply won't be worth the action cost in a very large majority of combats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention you could theoretically also take the Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype) bloodrager archetype instead of/in addition to a MoMS dip for AS, but it decreases your spells/day, so I wouldn't really recommend it. Also, I really recommend you trade out your 1st level bloodline power for a bloodline familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/#Bloodline_Familiars). I'd go for a compsognathus for the +4 initiative boost and its ability to hold items (ask your GM if it's allowed to use wands, otherwise upgrade it for a faerie dragon at 7th). Likewise, I highly recommend the Primalist (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) bloodrager archetype, allowing you to trade out less useful bloodline powers for rage powers (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers). Superstition (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/superstition-ex) and Come and Get Me (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) at 12th? Hell yeah! /EDIT

[Korahir]

The reasons for a monk MoMS (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) dip are:

"Free" Ascetic Style (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style) AS with a monk reach weapon is currently the only way to give your elemental touch attacks proper threatening reach, and MoMS gives it as a bonus feat at 1st, without you needing to meet prereqs.
Fuse Style You can boost your ASUS (=Ascetic Style unarmed strikes) with another combat style feat (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/style-feats), which MoMS gives for free at 2nd, along with the most common prereqs (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike) for later feats in the chain. Some style feats, like the mentioned Str-to-damage and charge boosting Dragon Style (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) + Dragon Ferocity (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat), are really great for a bloodrager, but normally too costly due to the prereqs. Fuse Style replaces Flurry of Blows, which you don't need and cannot use with armor anyways.
Saves The monk has all good saves, so a dip gives a bloodrager a pretty significant and very welcome defensive boost, especially if you want to prioritize a high Cha instead of Wis to boost your spells/day.
If you don't need Stunning Fist, I recommend you blend the MoMS with the Sohei (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei) archetype, giving you the ability to act in surprise rounds. And if you need Stunning Fist and dip 2 levels, I'd instead combine the MoMS with the Monk of the Iron Mountain (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-sacred-mountain), giving you Toughness and +1 NA instead of Evasion (which won't be of much value unless you're planning to be Dex based).

Or where you looking for tips on a build order which incorporates a MoMS dip?


Because you get Greater Bloodrage (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager#TOC-Greater-Bloodrage-Su-) at 11th, which lets you cast elemental touch as part of the free action to enter bloodrage and have the spell last for as long as you rage:

"In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect."

Without that free casting of elemental touch, I believe it simply won't be worth the action cost in a very large majority of combats.

EDIT: I forgot to mention you could theoretically also take the Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/bloody-knuckled-rowdy-bloodrager-archetype) bloodrager archetype instead of/in addition to a MoMS dip for AS, but it decreases your spells/day, so I wouldn't really recommend it. Also, I really recommend you trade out your 1st level bloodline power for a bloodline familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/#Bloodline_Familiars). I'd go for a compsognathus for the +4 initiative boost and its ability to hold items (ask your GM if it's allowed to use wands, otherwise upgrade it for a faerie dragon at 7th). Likewise, I highly recommend the Primalist (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/primalist) bloodrager archetype, allowing you to trade out less useful bloodline powers for rage powers (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers). Superstition (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/superstition-ex) and Come and Get Me (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) at 12th? Hell yeah! /EDIT



Thanks a lot for the detailled suggestions. Really great input. I'll go through them at home and will try to build a blended character and see where it takes me. Regarding action economy: this is what I'd like to see in play. How often would I be able to set up combat patrol? in surprise fights my natural reach is 10 ft. or 15 ft. with a polearm and with improved trip I have a fallback plan. Also I currently have a faerie dragon familiar (see my avatar). Not sure if I want to repeat the same thing with two characters in row but trading for a familiar is definitely worth it. I'll edit this post once I am at home with my books.