[Dreamscarred Press] Bloodforge Infusions Playtest

[Forrestfire]

Hello, all! The Bloodforge Infusions line has been in playtesting for a while, we've finally started getting the things that you have all been so helpful in testing. The first book of BFI is out, and with it, the atstreidi, eiremians, and ethumions. So with those gone, we at DSP are updating the playtest document, removing them and bringing in a new set of material for testing. We'll be continuing to repeat this as we get things released. There's a whole lot of ideas to write and stuff to do. :smallbiggrin:

In any case, given the general "reboot"-iness of the playtest update here, I've decided to open a new thread for it. The old one can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498781-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Bloodforge-Infusions-Open-Beta), if you want to look at what came before, but for now... Well, the material! Click on the image below to be taken to our playtest document.


http://i.imgur.com/TvFxdcw.png (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GvwMclLSw15slYI7D5xLdjMzr-Nau92hNha9Sx0LOk4/edit#)

(or this link) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GvwMclLSw15slYI7D5xLdjMzr-Nau92hNha9Sx0LOk4/edit#)


In this document, you'll find the races and options that were there before, as well as some brand-new stuff. Here's a rundown of what's in the document:


Alafia: A race of desert-dwelling superstitious viper-folk with an Akashic connection.
Coreid: A psionic core that thinks it's a real boy, building a body out of particulate matter from its surroundings..
Entoli: The entrancing offspring of maenads and sirens.
Half-Dwarves: The psionic offspring of dwarves and humans.
Liath: The results of surface-dwelling drow and elves settling down together.
Saremir: The rare children of orcs and elves.
Svartálfar: Dwarves combined with, you guessed it, elves. :smalltongue:

(The latter three are new to the playtest; of the race concepts we have floating around in our internal docs, they slotted together nicely into a themed update.)

In addition, the document has options for existing races, including variant catfolk (including a race trait for transforming into a full cat, similar to the youkai kitsune alternate racial trait we wrote), kitsune, tengus, and tieflings, as well as more variations on the three races from Akashic Mysteries, the gamla, sobek, and suqur. Finally, you'll find a new rogue archetype, new feats, and a new psionic power towards the end.

As always, I want to thank you all for taking a look, and look forward to any feedback given. I hope you enjoy what we've written. :smallbiggrin:

[inuyasha]

I love Bloodforge because I'm a huge fan of the original book, Bastards & Bloodlines, and the former is just that in a more polished Pathfinder form with some new content!

I have noticed one minor typo so far, looking at this, and that is that the Coreid Metallic Form trait says it replaces Slight Frame when it should say Flexible Frame.

[Forrestfire]

Haaaah whoops. Just fixed it.

[legomaster00156]

Loving these races so far, especially the variants for the catfolk.

[khadgar567]

looks like 2017 is year of forbidden fruits another iteration of unholy trio is in kick start on paizo forums and sphere martials are already funded and know unholy union of elves with various races but most importantly we have a killer veil called vestments of maharajah and this thing is kinda op for even my taste 100HD worth of followers aka pop this puppy and town it is yours congrats on the sick mind created this when i said we might need hard control veil in the vedist treat this is not the think i asked but I liked very very much

[inuyasha]

If the Manul are short, broad, and experts at hiding in the shadows, is there a reason why they have a +2 to strength instead of dexterity or constitution?

[Tuvarkz]

Regarding the Demon Cultist racial alternate for Liaths, shouldn't Fiend Cultist or some similar name be more fitting if the intent is to work on all outsider(evil) creatures rather than just demons?

[Kaidinah]

If the Manul are short, broad, and experts at hiding in the shadows, is there a reason why they have a +2 to strength instead of dexterity or constitution?
Manul or Pallas's Cats in real life are small, like a house cat. They also have proportionately smaller limbs than other cats and are slow moving. Their method of hunting relies entirely on stealth and overpowering their prey after an ambush. To model this I had Manul catfolk be small sized, stealthy and great at ambushing. Remember, they still have a size bonus to stealth, and a racial bonus to stealth. They dont need dexterity to sneak.

[Alea]

Just spitballing here, but Constitution instead of Dexterity for Stealth seems kind of interesting. More about patience, being utterly still when not moving and being careful when you are moving. Might be appropriate for something like that.

[Felyndiira]

Will there be additional Aasimar options in a future (or already released one that I've missed) Bloodforge supplement?

[Milo v3]

I feel like the "core"-hybrids are just "half the racial traits from one race, half the racial traits from the other" rather than being interesting mechanically.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Would be nice if there was an alternate trait for Half-Dwaves (yay Muls!) that would let them count as Duergar instead of Dwarf.

[digiman619]

Would be nice if there was an alternate trait for Half-Dwaves (yay Muls!) that would let them count as Duergar instead of Dwarf.

What would be the point? Duergar already count as Humanoid (Dwarf). Other than maybe an alternate racial trait that makes them psionic, I don't know what that would accomplish.

[MilleniaAntares]

Gamla subrace description: "The gamla variants presented below are more like their own unique races than a variant of gamla. Despite this, still count as suqur for the purposes of taking alternate racial traits, choosing favored class bonuses, and meeting prerequisites and requirements."

I'm guessing suqur is a typo...

Is the Hot-Blooded trait supposed to have terrible scaling? A level 1 and level 20 kineticist with 3 burn will still only have their damage reduced by... 1. 1 is pretty good when you're at level 1 (2 HP instead of 3), but is rather bad at level 20 (59 HP instead of 60).

[Taveena]

Hey, writer of the Bakeneko (and, at this point, about a third of the document...) here. Bakeneko has recieved some updates to make it a less mandatory choice, as well as to clarify rules functionality in the edge-case of a Youkai Kitsune with the Adopted trait wishing to take it.

[Sayt]

I've gotta say, Half-dwarf and Svartalfar have pierced directly through the initial apathy to full on !!!!! mode.
I just have a few comments on them: The format of pathfinder's +2/+2/-2 is that it's usually a +2 to a mental and +2 to a physical, with the -2 being either. Is this an intentional departure from that? Also the lack of some Martial facored classes seems a little strange.

Additionally, Is there a reason that the Svartalfar's Speak with stones doesn't just work as Stone Tell?

Otherwise great races :D

[AlienFromBeyond]

What would be the point? Duergar already count as Humanoid (Dwarf). Other than maybe an alternate racial trait that makes them psionic, I don't know what that would accomplish.
Duergar archetypes and favored class bonuses are a thing you know, especially for DSP (that whole Psionics thing). You clearly didn't look at the doc however, because Half-Dwarves already have a naturally psionic trait from the start. Duergar only count as Dwarves because they have the sub-type, so you could easily make a Half-Duergar alternate trait make them count as Duergar but not regular Dwarf.

[MilleniaAntares]

Hey, writer of the Bakeneko (and, at this point, about a third of the document...) here. Bakeneko has recieved some updates to make it a less mandatory choice, as well as to clarify rules functionality in the edge-case of a Youkai Kitsune with the Adopted trait wishing to take it.
Far as I understand, a race trait is different from a trait from the racial category. The terminology is confusing, sadly.

Edit: Nevermind, it is a trait (racial) rather than something gained as part of being a certain race. I shouldn't post when on the phone...

[Kaidinah]

Some changes were made to the Manul and Cheetah catfolk. Manul catfolk now have slow and steady movement and negate 3 of their armor check penalty to stealth due to the padding their fur provides.

Cheetah catfolk's sprint has been changed to Blitz, which also causes the enemy to be flat footed against their first attack after Blitzing.

Besides this, there have been minor changes to wording and a few fixes to minor text errors.

[Mithril Leaf]

I feel like the Svartálfar is one of my favorite new races. Finally something graceful and natural without being a disgusting beardless treehugger. Would it be possible for them to get a Guru Favored Class Bonus.

EDIT: Also I'm so proud of you guys, this time around only 42% of the new races are some variant of Half Elf! I was expecting a higher ratio after how the original Bloodforge went.

[Kaidinah]

EDIT: Also I'm so proud of you guys, this time around only 42% of the new races are some variant of Half Elf! I was expecting a higher ratio after how the original Bloodforge went.
I guess that means we need to turn up the elf. Elves will be the new humans if I have anything to say about it.

[Mithril Leaf]

I guess that means we need to turn up the elf. Elves will be the new humans if I have anything to say about it.

Fair enough, although if we count the Drow Elf as two half elves the numbers get a bit more favorable!

Unrelated but I could really go for a nice shrub or vine man. Something planty but not the generic tree.

[MilleniaAntares]

Fair enough, although if we count the Drow Elf as two half elves the numbers get a bit more favorable!

Unrelated but I could really go for a nice shrub or vine man. Something planty but not the generic tree.
Or maybe mushroomy!

[upho]

Interesting stuff. I'll post more feedback later, but for now I'm going to focus on the Bakeneko trait which raised lot of questions:

The flavor and mechanics are very nicely adapted from the RL myths IMO. Well done! Might be too powerful for a trait during earlier levels, but since quite a few initially more modest traits would probably have both a far more suitable flavor and long term mechanical value for most characters, I have a hard time seeing this being abused. (And I actually think it would be more interesting on a non-catfolk character via Adopted, mostly because I feel catfolk have their hybrid furry thing going anyways.)

I find this confusing: "If you possesses any extraordinary claw or bite natural weapons, then you maintain up to 2 claw attacks and 1 bite attack while in this form".
What does "maintain" refer to? Does it mean maintained from "my alter self human disguise", or "the normal shape for my race which I would've had without Bakeneko"? Since the kitty form is my natural form, I'd assume every natural attack, weird mutation or whatever other limb-granting/-altering effect I might have and which would've worked without Bakeneko also works in that default natural form, as normal (but perhaps not in my alter self human disguise).
As written, any other types of natural weapons (hooves, tail slap, sting, slams, gore, tentacles, wings etc) I might have would work just fine in my kitty form, since they're not mentioned. Was this intended?
Why does my natural form have more restrictions on the number of natural attacks I can have than my alter self human disguise has? And why are bite and claw attacks specifically limited, despite my natural kitty form surely having a much greater inherent affinity for precisely those attacks than my alter self human disguise could ever have?

Let's say I'm a tiger catfolk, who without bakeneko would've been Gargantuan size (metamorphosis), and had 5 claw attacks (2 race, 3 metamorphosis) and 1 bite (chimera soul maneuver/stance), 1 gore (item), 1 sting (surgically attached item), 2 talons (veils) and 2 wing attacks (chimera soul maneuver/stance) during a full attack. Which of these many changes/additions to my original catfolk shape are my kitty form intended to also receive, and which ones are my alter self human disguise intended to receive? And if my kitty form are intended to receive less than my original catfolk and/or my alter self human disguise, why is that?

Is there any particular reason why Bakeneko doesn't give the Shapechanger subtype (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-shapechanger) rather than the considerably more generic and IMO less fitting beastblood?

"This trait has no effect if you have another ability that alters your natural shape by mimicking the effects of a spell as an extraordinary effect, beyond granting you the beastblood subtype."
And what if I have another ability that alters my natural shape, by mimicking the effects of a spell or otherwise, as say a supernatural effect (such as by being a skinwalker)?

[Taveena]

Hey! Thanks for the feedback. Normally, as bakeneko mimics the effect of Beast Shape, you would actually lose any extraordinary or supernatural abilities that depend on your natural form - including claw attacks you might have gained from alternate racial traits. My intention was that this would allow catfolk with that alternate racial trait to keep those claws, without granting it to other catfolk 'for free', which is particularly powerful for a trait. Other supernatural natural weapons - such as those granted by spells or supernatural effects, would function in all forms as normal, while the extraordinary natural weapons you mention would be suppressed by the polymorph effect.

Unfortunately, there were a number of flaws with this concept - among them that it's possible to play a bakeneko with no natural weapons or limbs with which to wield manufactured ones. This is definitely going to get brought up and discussed. Similarly, how pseudo-polymorph effects like both youkai and bakeneko interact with other extraordinary abilities needs to be discussed.

Finally, the skinwalker's shapeshifting does not mention their 'natural form', and as such they can toggle between the benefits of their normal form and their shifted form even in the bakeneko's cat form or the human form.

EDIT: Bakeneko has been updated to function more clearly, and the shapechanger subtype has been added.

[upho]

The changes to bakeneko make things clearer, but it's unfortunately also very wordy and contains a lot of special snowflake versions of other rules elements. I think the main reason for this, as well as my confusion with the earlier version, is the default true natural shape being based on a polymorph effect. To some degree because it simply feels counter-intuitive, but most importantly because the rules become confusing, complex and likely to have unforeseen interactions when a very large majority of the rules for beast shape I (and polymorph in general) don't apply to your kitty shape, but the spell is nevertheless to be used for creating a kitty shape.

In conclusion, if you end up mostly detailing all the numerous exceptions and alterations to beast shape I when used for this particular purpose, I don't think there's anything to gain by basing the natural kitty form on the spell to begin with. Instead, I suggest you simply write your own version and include only the components needed for this purpose. Most of which you've already done anyways, which I think in itself is a clear sign that involving beast shape I brings more problems than it solves.

[Mezzaluna]

I feel the justification for half-dwarves being psionic is very flimsy.
Neither of the parent races are psionic, and suddenly their offspring is.
The fact they're psionic also barely seems to add anything to their racial flavor and abilities, besides the FCBs, which makes it feel even more tacked on.

The idea of making them psionic is fine in principle, if it's explained properly, but right now it very much reads as 'we made them psionic just because'.

[AlienFromBeyond]

It's mostly because of Dark Sun, same reason Half-Giants are Psionic.

[Biapolis]

Salutations. Just found this, and I have 2 things [not really questions or concerns, comments I suppose?].

First, the Alafia. I'm unsure from their description wether they have legs or not. If not, that would be interesting, as I believe that would make them the first Akashic race to be missing limbs for shaping and binding veils. Is this interpretation accurate? Perhaps a comment about how they handle the fact that they are missing 2 veil slots while being predisposed for veilshaping might be neat.

Second, the Coreid. Any chance of an alternate racial trait for them to have them choose a place for their core and keep it there? Probably reading their protection from crits and SAs in return for more psionic oomph, as their cores are right there?

[EarthSeraphEdna]

How does the lynx catfolk not break skill checks out of combat? Dreamscarred Press was warned about this, and nobody listened.

Similarly, how is the bearded vulture tengu not unreasonably durable and an ideal choice for clerics and shamans? Dreamscarred Press was also warned about this, and again, nobody listened. This racial AC and saving throw bonus beats out halflings, that is for sure.

Even worse, here (https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51780135/#51785087), we have a statement that inertial armor would be removed from the valid list of powers for Psionic Awakening. And yet, in the final release, inertial armor is still in the list for Psionic Awakening. A 9th-level character with an unarmored AC bonus takes this feat, and suddenly, they can manifest Inertial Armor three times per day for a +8 armor bonus to AC each time.

It is as if Dreamscarred Press completely ignored the playtest feedback for Bloodforge: Infusions, which is ironic, given that in the old post linked above, they also said:

DSP aims to be responsive to community feedback.