Wisdom name change

[Avianmosquito]

Alright, so the wisdom stat never made any sense, but in Aelsif it makes even less sense. Wisdom's uses haven't changed, it is mechanically identical, but the setting's nature is different from others. The main difference is that while wisdom is still used for divine casting, the deities these casters worship don't exist. While not all clerics believe their deity is literally real, most do, and some go further and delude themselves into believing that these deities grant them spells that they actually are casting entirely with their own power. Clerics of many religions further draw an arbitrary divine/arcane distinction when magic is magic, and some take this falsehood into dangerous territory by believing that their "divine" magic is holy and good while "arcane" magic is impure and evil. While wisdom is a flawed and illogical concept already, even proponents of it have to admit it does not fit here, especially for the dangerously delusional fanatics that every religion in Aelsif has among their ranks, many of which are clerics and paladins and need a high wisdom stat to function properly.

I've already got a few candidates, arguments for and against. If anybody else has candidates or arguments for or against any of the current candidates, please put them below. Any name may be chosen, the only thing that won't happen is it isn't going to keep being called "wisdom".

Faith:
Argument for:
Faith makes the most sense for divine casting, as it is directly related to religion. Belief without evidence is every religion's core tenant, and believing further that things are true despite direct evidence to the contrary is required by many, as is the case for casters who think their deity answers their prayers and grants their spells. Faith is also required to ignore the hypocrisy of hunting down spellcasters while being one yourself, which is a thing many religious institutions in Aelsif demand. Faith is, without a doubt, the one trait these casters must have in abundance to cast their spells. Some religions are certainly exceptions to this rule, but those can just use favored souls instead.

Argument against:
Faith really only makes sense for divine casting, and nothing else. Faith really shouldn't be the ability in charge of will saves. Sure, in some specific circumstances it may help, but that's not an ability bonus, that's a circumstance bonus. Faith providing bonuses to skills makes even less sense.

Conviction:
Argument for:
Conviction makes plenty of sense for divine casters, as it implies one has faith and faith's usefulness to divine casters is laid out fairly well above. It isn't synonymous with faith, however, and conviction also implies willpower, which means it makes sense for will saves.

Argument against:
Conviction abbreviates to con. That's going to get confusing. It also makes equally little sense for skills, for the same reasons faith really doesn't work for them.

Discipline:
Argument for:
Discipline inherently implies willpower and focus as well. It also actually makes sense for some of the skills wisdom is used for as self-control and keeping calm are important for them, and discipline powering divine magic also makes sense for most religions as discipline is one of the things they tend to focus on. The ones that don't focus on discipline may well use favored souls instead, same as with those that don't demand faith. Discipline also abbreviates to "dis", which is close to "wis" and that may help avoid confusion.

Argument against:
There are far more religions that don't demand discipline than those that don't demand faith or conviction. There's even some religions that are laid-back allow enough freedom that it may be a negative to be especially disciplined. The implication of subservience doesn't really work for a cleric of Loki, for example.

Resolve:
Argument for:
Resolve has the benefits of wisdom, without implying subservience. It also is an actual attribute, rather than a personality trait. It also would naturally increase with age as wisdom does, except it actually makes sense as old people being especially stubborn is actually a thing.

Argument against:
Saying you have strong resolve is really just putting a positive spin on being stubborn. Is being stubborn really all it takes to be a cleric? Wouldn't being stubborn also benefit other things that aren't affected by the wisdom stat?

[RatElemental]

I'd suggest intuition, as that makes sense for at least some of the skills governed by wisdom. Drawbacks are it abbreviates to int, and my reasoning for it applying to divine magic is admittedly sort of weak: A high intuition means they rely more on it, and as a result can end up being really sure of something they've intuited to be true, such as the existence of their deity.

[Avianmosquito]

I'd suggest intuition, as that makes sense for at least some of the skills governed by wisdom. Drawbacks are it abbreviates to int, and my reasoning for it applying to divine magic is admittedly sort of weak: A high intuition means they rely more on it, and as a result can end up being really sure of something they've intuited to be true, such as the existence of their deity.

I can see that working for skill checks, but how exactly does intuition help with will saves? And how does it make sense for it to rise with age?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You don't particularly sell me on the idea that Wisdom is a flawed and illogical design, which is a key part of the argument to why it needs to be replaced. I'd like to see that argument, personally.

I'm also not sold on any of the options you presented. Faith doesn't fit the skills at all, and neither does Conviction. Discipline and Resolve are closer, but Discipline seems like an RP choice, and rolling a Listen check with a Resolve bonus just feels wrong.

That said, I have two options I like.

#1: Leave Wisdom be, and change your world's Clerics to cast off another stat. This is an easy fix.

#2: Acuity. "The state or quality of being able to sense slight impressions or differences." Works for perception, works for social skills. Works for Will saves by being able to detect something is wrong with you and fight it off. It also works for the kind of casting you mentioned -- these high Acuity characters can perceive things in the world readily, and, in their belief, attribute them to their higher power, which in turn further empowers their certainty they are correct. As another added bonus the abbreviation ACU doesn't start with the same letter as or look like any of the other stats. The only issue is that it's close to AC, but they're still pretty distinct.


And how does it make sense for it to rise with age?

This is getting a bit too simulationist. Why does hearing and memory (ability to make knowledge checks) rise well into old age as your Int bonus rises, when we KNOW those faculties are often lost? Why is the same true of your public speak ability, or your ability to disguise yourself? Or, even weirder, why is a 90 year old Bard better at Perform (Dance) than a 30 year old with the same base stat array and skill ranks? Because all of those things currently happen.

Why is environmental damage low enough that a 15th level Barbarian has a solid chance of surviving a fall from orbit, or 6 seconds submerged in lava?

Why the DC for listening such that it's entirely possible your average, level one Commoner (+0 modifier) talking to a friend in a house (+5 for Listener Distracted, +5 for Through a Door) has nearly a 50% chance to be unable to hear a BATTLE (base DC -10) 100 feet from his house (+1 DC per 10 feet) [Total roll of +0 vs. DC 10)?

The answer is "because it's a game, and realism has to take a back seat sometimes to avoid a 10,000 page rulebook."

[Avianmosquito]

You don't particularly sell me on the idea that Wisdom is a flawed and illogical design, which is a key part of the argument to why it needs to be replaced. I'd like to see that argument, personally.

Given that I just made this argument in another thread *yesterday*, I'm not going to repeat it again here.


I'm also not sold on any of the options you presented. Faith doesn't fit the skills at all, and neither does Conviction. Discipline and Resolve are closer, but Discipline seems like an RP choice, and rolling a Listen check with a Resolve bonus just feels wrong.

Which is why I've considered moving those two to intelligence. Them being on wisdom never made sense, and no replacement for it will make sense either. At least I can hear an argument being made for resolve providing a bonus, that you are able to focus better and pay more attention, but it would still make more sense to move it.


That said, I have two options I like.

#1: Leave Wisdom be, and change your world's Clerics to cast off another stat. This is an easy fix.

Not an option.


#2: Acuity. "The state or quality of being able to sense slight impressions or differences." Works for perception, works for social skills. Works for Will saves by being able to detect something is wrong with you and fight it off. It also works for the kind of casting you mentioned -- these high Acuity characters can perceive things in the world readily, and, in their belief, attribute them to their higher power, which in turn further empowers their certainty they are correct. As another added bonus the abbreviation ACU doesn't start with the same letter as or look like any of the other stats. The only issue is that it's close to AC, but they're still pretty distinct.

While this makes sense for everything else, I don't buy it making divine spells stronger. The argument may work for a druid, maybe even an alignment cleric, but it definitely doesn't work for the cleric of a fictional deity. Being more aware would make them less inclined to religious belief as they would notice errors and contradictions more often than somebody who wasn't so perceptive. They are also less likely to take unrelated things as evidence for their deity's existence. At the very least, an especially acute individual couldn't be a literalist.


This is getting a bit too simulationist. Why does hearing and memory (ability to make knowledge checks) rise well into old age as your Int bonus rises, when we KNOW those faculties are often lost?

All faculties are lost with age. Unless you count being stubborn as a benefit, growing older is strictly detrimental. That's why the elderly are respected, because they are at a severe disadvantage and in nature it would be very impressive to live so long despite your mind and body failing you. (It is MUCH less impressive in civilization with others taking care of you.)


Why is the same true of your public speak ability, or your ability to disguise yourself? Or, even weirder, why is a 90 year old Bard better at Perform (Dance) than a 30 year old with the same base stat array and skill ranks? Because all of those things currently happen.

That's why I rewrote the template. It was honestly a pretty easy fix and it isn't any longer than the original.


Why is environmental damage low enough that a 15th level Barbarian has a solid chance of surviving a fall from orbit, or 6 seconds submerged in lava?

Because high-level D&D characters are enormously superhuman, and even so those issues aren't the case with all editions?


Why the DC for listening such that it's entirely possible your average, level one Commoner (+0 modifier) talking to a friend in a house (+5 for Listener Distracted, +5 for Through a Door) has nearly a 50% chance to be unable to hear a BATTLE (base DC -10) 100 feet from his house (+1 DC per 10 feet) [Total roll of +0 vs. DC 10)?

Because D&D commoners are utterly worthless in all things. They really shouldn't be included in games, they're so worthless. We're talking about a class that can be killed in one round by a house cat.


The answer is "because it's a game, and realism has to take a back seat sometimes to avoid a 10,000 page rulebook."

You wouldn't have any longer of a rulebook if the rules were a little less ridiculous. It takes no additional space to make the old age templates less ridiculous, or increase the damage from lava or falling, or give the commoners decent stats. These were all things the creators of the game did consciously because the game is meant to match the expectations and tropes of movies.

Why does the "wise" old man have a bonus to spot and listen? Because the "wise" old man in movies is always supernaturally aware, even if he's blind. Especially if he's blind. Why can a super high-level character fall any height or land in lava and have a chance to live? Because if you don't see the body main characters can survive anything. Why is armour so weak? Because armour is seldom useful in movies. Why are low-level enemies so fragile? Because mooks die in one hit in movies, too. Why are the commoners so outright worthless that literally anything will defeat them in a fight no matter how ridiculous it is for them to get killed by it? Because random citizens in movies also die to completely ridiculous things that nobody should die to.

The game was built specifically to be unrealistic, in the exact ways that movies are, because that's what the creators found fun for roleplay. It's developed into a more balanced game from there, but that intent has never changed. I may change a few things here and there because I have different goals, but I'm not making the book any longer doing so.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Given that I just made this argument in depth in another thread *yesterday*, I'm not going to repeat it again here.

Fair enough. Never saw such a thread or a such a discussion, so it seemed odd thing to assume.


While this makes sense for everything else, I don't buy it making divine spells stronger. The argument may work for a druid, maybe even an alignment cleric, but it definitely doesn't work for the cleric of a fictional deity. Being more aware would make them less inclined to religious belief as they would notice errors and contradictions more often than somebody who wasn't so perceptive. They are also less likely to take unrelated things as evidence for their deity's existence. At the very least, an especially acute individual couldn't be a literalist.

I'm not sure I agree. If you're VERY aware of things AND equally fervent in your belief you'd end up spotting all sorts of tiny things that you can use to confirm it. We've had some very intelligent and perceptive religious people over the years in the real world, and that shows there's nothing contrary about being especially sharp at noticing things and still having strong belief.

But sure. Acuity may not hit the mark for you. That said, finding something that represents willpower, blind faith, AND acute awareness to other people and the world around you is going to be...almost impossible, if you consider improved awareness to be contrary to belief in a fictional deity and want to match the stat to both that belief AND to the skills currently associated with that stat.


Why does the "wise" old man have a bonus to spot and listen? Because the "wise" old man in movies is always supernaturally aware, even if he's blind. ESPECIALLY if he's blind. Why can a super high-level character fall any height or land in lava and have a chance to live? Because if you don't see the body movie characters can survive ANYTHING. Why is armour so weak? Because armour is seldom useful in movies. Why are low-level enemies so fragile? Because mooks die in one hit in movies, too. Why are the commoners so outright worthless that literally anything will defeat them in a fight no matter how ridiculous it is for them to get killed by it? Because random citizens in movies also die to completely ridiculous things that nobody should die to.

The game was built specifically to be unrealistic, in the exact ways that movies are, because that's what the creators found fun for roleplay. It's developed into a more balanced game from there, but that intent has never changed. I may change a few things here and there because I have different goals, but I'm not making the book any longer doing so.

Then there's your answer. In his proposal, Intuition rises with age because, in movies, the wise mentor typically DOES know the answer to the question the youth is seeking, but has also intuited that simply GIVING him that answer isn't really what he wants or needs. He can also almost always identify the villain's most personal flaws and failings, usually in a nice monologue right before he's slain outright by the villain. :smallbiggrin:

As for Will saves? Because you can intuit that something is wrong with you or trying to influence you, and begin to fight it off from your knowledge of what "right" feels like.

---------------

As to your dissection of my realism point? I know that. I agree with it. I was just pointing out that, given all of that, it seems odd to require a stat to have a perfectly sound rationale for EVERY mechanic it's used for. 'tis all. :smallsmile:

[Avianmosquito]

Fair enough. Never saw such a thread or a such a discussion, so it seemed odd thing to assume.

It was an off-hand comment in a thread that I have since stopped reading because it served its purpose and seemed like it was starting to derail.


I'm not sure I agree. If you're VERY aware of things AND equally fervent in your belief you'd end up spotting all sorts of tiny things that you can use to confirm it. We've had some very intelligent and perceptive religious people over the years in the real world, and that shows there's nothing contrary about being especially sharp at noticing things and still having strong belief.

"Less likely" does not mean "has no chance of". And a lot of it does come down to how able they are to ignore the parts that don't make sense. Let's say there's a holy text that says in it that women have 28 teeth and shouldn't be allowed to eat poultry. Could an intelligent, perceptive person read that and say "Well, that is totally accurate and makes perfect sense."? Perhaps, but it isn't made easier by them being aware enough to notice that a woman's teeth look the same as a man's, or to count that they actually have the same number, or to realize that not being able to eat poultry is a non-sequitur from having less teeth.


But sure. Acuity may not hit the mark for you. That said, finding something that represents willpower, blind faith, AND acute awareness to other people and the world around you is going to be...almost impossible, if you consider improved awareness to be contrary to belief in a fictional deity and want to match the stat to both that belief AND to the skills currently associated with that stat.

Well, that's why I was considering moving spot and listen to intelligence. That gets rid of the contradiction there.


Then there's your answer. In his proposal, Intuition rises with age because, in movies, the wise mentor typically DOES know the answer to the question the youth is seeking, but has also intuited that simply GIVING him that answer isn't really what he wants or needs. He can also almost always identify the villain's most personal flaws and failings, usually in a nice monologue right before he's slain outright by the villain. :smallbiggrin:

As for Will saves? Because you can intuit that something is wrong with you or trying to influence you, and begin to fight it off from your knowledge of what "right" feels like.

Yeah, well I said I had different goals with Aelsif. I want to use the core framework of a game we're all familiar with in a setting designed for more serious campaigns, including horror campaigns which simply don't function in D&D otherwise. The game doesn't have to be totally realistic, but a few changes do have to be made to better fit that goal and it being less ridiculous certainly helps.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

"Less likely" does not mean "has no chance of". And a lot of it does come down to how able they are to ignore the parts that don't make sense. Let's say there's a holy text that says in it that women have 28 teeth and shouldn't be allowed to eat poultry. Could an intelligent, perceptive person read that and say "Well, that is totally accurate and makes perfect sense."? Perhaps, but it isn't made easier by them being aware enough to notice that a woman's teeth look the same as a man's, or to count that they actually have the same number, or to realize that not being able to eat poultry is a non-sequitur from having less teeth.

The first part is weird because it directly contradicts a fact we have prove, factually and indisputably, on first-hand evidence, which...well, I'll avoid real-world discussion here, but that's a STRANGE (and amusing) holy book you suggest. I hope there's a chapter that says the sky is green. :smallbiggrin:

The second isn't weird unless the book says "BECAUSE of this tooth number, they shouldn't be allowed to eat poultry." Otherwise it's just a list of holy commands. "Don't eat poultry, don't go skydiving, and don't waterski" doesn't seem LOGICAL, but it could be a religious edict in some fantasy religion.

But you're clearly going for something different than my perception of what defines belief, and that's fine.


Well, that's why I was considering moving spot and listen to intelligence. That gets rid of the contradiction there.

While also making not much sense (I hear or see better because...I'm smart?), and further empowering Intelligence and nerfing Wisdom even more heavily for any non-casters. It's a useful but not mandatory stat currently, but this makes it almost worse than Charisma for most characters. I'd be wary of that.


Yeah, well I said I had different goals with Aelsif. I want to use the core framework of a game we're all familiar with in a setting designed for more serious campaigns, including horror campaigns which simply don't function in D&D otherwise. The game doesn't have to be totally realistic, but a few changes do have to be made to better fit that goal and it being less ridiculous certainly helps.

Never read any of your campaign setting, so I've never seen a statement about those goals. Guess that accounts for some of the miscommunication here.

Although, as someone who has run both serious campaigns AND horror campaigns successfully in D&D (and even in pre-written settings, including Eberron, normally considered for its action and pulp), it does work for them. Just takes a specific approach. But good luck to you!

[Avianmosquito]

The first part is weird because it directly contradicts a fact we have prove, factually and indisputably, on first-hand evidence, which...well, I'll avoid real-world discussion here, but that's a STRANGE (and amusing) holy book you suggest. I hope there's a chapter that says the sky is green. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, we can actually talk about this one in the real world, because it wasn't from a religion, it was a claim made by Aristotle. Many people believed him, despite it being utter nonsense. More perceptive people noticed that the claim didn't seem likely as women's teeth looked the same and decided to count. And what do you know, both sexes have 32 teeth.


The second isn't weird unless the book says "BECAUSE of this tooth number, they shouldn't be allowed to eat poultry." Otherwise it's just a list of holy commands. "Don't eat poultry, don't go skydiving, and don't waterski" doesn't seem LOGICAL, but it could be a religious edict in some fantasy religion.

I was implying that it was because of the smaller number of teeth. Which really doesn't make any sense.


But you're clearly going for something different than my perception of what defines belief, and that's fine.

I don't see how.


While also making not much sense (I hear or see better because...I'm smart?), and further empowering Intelligence and nerfing Wisdom even more heavily for any non-casters. It's a useful but not mandatory stat currently, but this makes it almost worse than Charisma for most characters. I'd be wary of that.

Well, another skill can be moved to wisdom. Namely, concentration.

As for it not making sense, it's the kind of sense you'd just have to think about for a second. Being smarter would indeed help you realize if something is out of the ordinary. A dumb person might hear something clanging and think "That could be the wind blowing on the gate.", where a smart person might think "Wait. If that keeps clanging it's probably the wind, but I don't hear it anymore and the wind hasn't stopped.". A dumb person might see a pile of leaves in the yard and think nothing of it, where a smart person might see it and think "Wait, why would those leaves all blow together. Is there a mound there they got stuck on, something they're sticking to, or did something make that? Is that even a pile of leaves... No, I see it moving."


Never read any of your campaign setting, so I've never seen a statement about those goals. Guess that accounts for some of the miscommunication here.

Well, I haven't laid it out that well and don't intend to. Letting the setting and its games demonstrate its themes will make them stick much better than explicitly laying them out. Especially themes of the type that people are inherently opposed to whenever they hear them explicitly stated, like that mankind is completely insignificant and the story of the universe is not about us. Which, by the way, is the main theme of cosmic horror, and Aelsif has a great deal of cosmic horror in it.


Although, as someone who has run both serious campaigns AND horror campaigns successfully in D&D (and even in pre-written settings, including Eberron, normally considered for its action and pulp), it does work for them. Just takes a specific approach. But good luck to you!

I know Eberron, and I don't see it. Good for you, though.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Oh, we can actually talk about this one in the real world, because it wasn't from a religion, it was a claim made by Aristotle. Many people believed him, despite it being utter nonsense. More perceptive people noticed that the claim didn't seem likely as women's teeth looked the same and decided to count. And what do you know, both sexes have 32 teeth.

Ah. Yes. But bear in mind that our knowledge now is much less limited in scope: there have been a lot of mistakes made in the course of scientific discovery, some fairly obvious. The quote appears to be ”Males have more teeth than females in the case of men, sheep, goats, and swine; in the case of other animals observations have not yet been made.” So he does consider observation important. Note, however, that he wasn't a doctor -- he may looked at only one or two people, maybe made a mistake (or maybe found someone with severely impacted wisdom teeth). There are numerous reasons this could be the case.

But that's an argument in favor of it. Here's someone very bright, very good at observation, who STILL believed something that is provably false. Same with, say, a lot of Greek medicine. Or medieval medicine. Or...the list goes on.


I don't see how.

Because I hold that belief, true belief, is defined as "believing something to be true without confirming evidence or in spite of conflicting evidence. And that while perception may tell you that can't make sense, the most fervent beliefs will, for better or worse, account for that or simply ignore it. Which seems contrary to your idea that it doesn't make sense to accept that it's okay to have a system fluke where Clerics may be immensely perceptive yet still (because of their faith) be beholden to fantastical and provably false gods. And there are already settings where this is true (Eberron doesn't have tangible gods walking around, for example).


Well, another skill can be moved to wisdom. Namely, concentration.

Which works for casters, but still makes it far weaker for all non-casters.


As for it not making sense, it's the kind of sense you'd just have to think about for a second. Being smarter would indeed help you realize if something is out of the ordinary. A dumb person might hear something clanging and think "That could be the wind blowing on the gate.", where a smart person might think "Wait. If that keeps clanging it's probably the wind, but I don't hear it anymore and the wind hasn't stopped.". A dumb person might see a pile of leaves in the yard and think nothing of it, where a smart person might see it and think "Wait, why would those leaves all blow together. Is there a mound there they got stuck on, something they're sticking to, or did something make that? Is that even a pile of leaves... No, I see it moving."

Yeah, I guess. I still don't like the change, but I don't have to. :smallsmile:


I know Eberron, and I don't see it. Good for you, though.

It involved a lot of body horror and psychological horror, and dealt heavily with the PCs being experimental subjects of a rogue House Cannith project during the last war, waking up in a deserted test facility deep underground in the middle of the Mournlands, finding out bits and pieces of exactly what was going on, and finding out that most of them had been effectively torn apart, grafted with artifical dragonmarks to give them powers, cloned, and kept alive in an attempt to create soldiers in their image. So they'd encounter failed experiments that were not only human, but also effectively identical to themselves, save with terrible mental or physical defects that caused them to slowly break down over time even as they tried to do the same thing the PCs were and forge a new life for themselves. So intrigue and investigation heavy psychological horror turning Eberron into an oppressive, "big-brother-esque" environment. Worked well, and kept the PCs both horrified and on edge.

Not sure we could REPEAT something like it in Eberron, but it definitely worked once.

[Avianmosquito]

Ah. Yes. But bear in mind that our knowledge now is much less limited in scope: there have been a lot of mistakes made in the course of scientific discovery, some fairly obvious. The quote appears to be ”Males have more teeth than females in the case of men, sheep, goats, and swine; in the case of other animals observations have not yet been made.” So he does consider observation important. Note, however, that he wasn't a doctor -- he may looked at only one or two people, maybe made a mistake (or maybe found someone with severely impacted wisdom teeth). There are numerous reasons this could be the case.

But that's an argument in favor of it. Here's someone very bright, very good at observation, who STILL believed something that is provably false. Same with, say, a lot of Greek medicine. Or medieval medicine. Or...the list goes on.

Yes, but he also may have been biased. He had his fair share of sexist beliefs, it wouldn't be surprising if he came to that conclusion on little evidence and didn't question it because he didn't want to.


Because I hold that belief, true belief, is defined as "believing something to be true without confirming evidence or in spite of conflicting evidence. And that while perception may tell you that can't make sense, the most fervent beliefs will, for better or worse, account for that or simply ignore it. Which seems contrary to your idea that it doesn't make sense to accept that it's okay to have a system fluke where Clerics may be immensely perceptive yet still (because of their faith) be beholden to fantastical and provably false gods. And there are already settings where this is true (Eberron doesn't have tangible gods walking around, for example).

That's not belief, that's faith.


Which works for casters, but still makes it far weaker for all non-casters.

Well, I do have a houserule I could put in the book that makes concentration a big deal for a lot more people. Basically, it makes it so any time you get hit by an attack of opportunity you need to make a concentration check or the action that provoked it fails. I hadn't put that anywhere in the book yet, not even in the optional rules list, but I can.


Yeah, I guess. I still don't like the change, but I don't have to. :smallsmile:

Also, there's a lot more will saves being made in Aelsif. An entire monster subtype is made much more difficult by a low will save, and it's a fairly common subtype. Hell, some of the stronger celestials actually cause ability damage on sight, and that's defended against by a will save.


It involved a lot of body horror and psychological horror, and dealt heavily with the PCs being experimental subjects of a rogue House Cannith project during the last war, waking up in a deserted test facility deep underground in the middle of the Mournlands, finding out bits and pieces of exactly what was going on, and finding out that most of them had been effectively torn apart, grafted with artifical dragonmarks to give them powers, cloned, and kept alive in an attempt to create soldiers in their image. So they'd encounter failed experiments that were not only human, but also effectively identical to themselves, save with terrible mental or physical defects that caused them to slowly break down over time even as they tried to do the same thing the PCs were and forge a new life for themselves. So intrigue and investigation heavy psychological horror turning Eberron into an oppressive, "big-brother-esque" environment. Worked well, and kept the PCs both horrified and on edge.

Not sure we could REPEAT something like it in Eberron, but it definitely worked once.

You could try it again with different players. I've done repeat plotlines with different players before.

[Shimeran]

Normally, I'd just switch divine casters to a different stat, likely charisma. That being said, wisdom is a bit a mash up of a stat so I can see swapping in a replacement if you're displeased with it.

Of the top of my head, I'd suggest Devotion, as in the ability to commit yourself wholly to something beyond yourself. A lot of faiths talk about surrendering your sense of control and even your sense of self. Will wise if works as their devotion makes them harder to sway, especially as their are used to putting the needs of their faith over their own. The perception boost is a bit more situational, though I can see their devotion driving them to be more alert, at least when actively looking for threats.

Honestly, I think you'll have a hard time hitting all 3. Perception and will can fit together in the "mental acuity to pierce illusions and deceptions" umbrella. However, that piercing insight plays oddly with being able to draw power from something unreal. Similarly, divine magic and will can fit together for a spiritual theme, but that makes being more attentive to one's physical senses an odd fit.

I suppose you could go with a something like Sensitivity to try covering heightened physical and supernatural senses, so of like combined psychic sensitivity and hypersensitivity. Will wise, this protects you by letting you get your guard up early.

Fiction wise, I'd favor devotion as it means only selfless clergy can use divine powers and those simply trying to exploit their office for personal gain must use other means. This doesn't mean they're necessarily good, just that they put the well being of what they're devote to over their own needs. This also lets you cover idealist and those with a strong sense of duty, such as to a person, cause, or code of honor.

In contrast, going with sensitivity means clergy are hyper alert, almost to the point they're jumping at things others don't notice. It can work if you want to bring psychic undertones into your divine magic, though I'm not sure that's what you're going for.

[Avianmosquito]

Normally, I'd just switch divine casters to a different stat, likely charisma. That being said, wisdom is a bit a mash up of a stat so I can see swapping in a replacement if you're displeased with it.

I've always been displeased with it, it's just coming to a head now.


Of the top of my head, I'd suggest Devotion, as in the ability to commit yourself wholly to something beyond yourself. A lot of faiths talk about surrendering your sense of control and even your sense of self. Will wise if works as their devotion makes them harder to sway, especially as their are used to putting the needs of their faith over their own.

The only problem with this is the massive corruption in religious institutions. Requiring genuine devotion is different from requiring faith, as somebody can still have faith in something that's not true and still use their sincere faith to push a personal agenda, or even for self-serving ends. It's also different from requiring resolve, though I think that goes without saying as resolve says nothing about one's intent or motivations.

Let's look at an example. The dwarven federation is at war with the elven empire and has been for living memory. Let's say this priest has come to the conclusion that the war between the dwarves and elves is a gnomish conspiracy to prevent their small mountain nation from being invaded, primarily due to his personal hatred for the gnomes. So he goes out and pushes for an invasion of the Gnomelands using his position as priest of Odin, claiming that Odin is in favour of such a move. When asked how they're going to fight a war with the elves and the gnomes at the same time, he makes the claim that war with the Gnomes was more important than the war with the elves, and existing resources could be redirected from the war actually happening for his hypothetical invasion. He goes so far as to say Odin would rather they ignore their current enemy to start a second war.

Now, does this priest have faith? Yes, he does. He has faith in Odin's existence, in Odin's wisdom and might, and he has faith that Odin will guide his people through these wars to eventual victory. But is he devoted? No. He's putting his political agenda and personal bigotry above his duty as priest, he's turned it into a political platform and he's lying to himself and his people to do it. He may have faith that the Allfather will see them through it, but he can't believe that turning their back on a clear and present threat to start a second war is what Odin would want. Odin isn't real, but the character is not a fool and even if Odin would want a war with the gnomes, already a questionable concept, he would want to be in a better position in the current war before invading.

For another example, let's say an elven priestess of Athena has been stealing from the war box to purchase brandy, something her normal stipend would not afford. This box is full of funds the people have donated to further the elven war effort. The priestess believes the war is theirs anyway, that with Athena's guidance and power her people won't need the paltry donations of her town, and she's not taking much anyway so what effect would it really have? Does she have faith? Unquestionably. But is she devoted? Absolutely not. She is directly working against what she believes her goddess wants, and even though she believes it ultimately doesn't matter she is still stealing from her goddess to get drunk.

These two are both good examples of corruption within their respective institutions. Their devotion to their institutions is non-existent, and they are both self-serving to the detriment of their people and their religion, if in different ways. They both have their excuses, but it doesn't change the fact that while they have great faith in their deities, and their resolve remains strong, they are not devoted and they still are still priests of their respective deities.

A priest of Odin *MUST* be able to cast 4th-level spells and a priest of Athena *MUST* be able to cast 3rd-level ones. So these two still have a minimum of 14 and 13 of their caster attribute (also they must be 7th and 5th level clerics), while being corrupt and not very passionate about the needs of the church.


The perception boost is a bit more situational, though I can see their devotion driving them to be more alert, at least when actively looking for threats.

Just ignore spot/listen skill for now, it'll probably get moved to int. A few skills are getting tweaked, one actually got outright removed and replaced, it won't take any time to do that.

I was going to reply to the rest of this, but I'm sorry to say I don't have the time today. I just got called back in to work.

[Bohandas]

Based on linked skills it should be called "Perception" or something

[Killdread]

Well, considering there are things that can cause ability loss on sight and you're moving all the perception based skills to something else, take a page from the game i'm making and just call it "Blindness"

[Avianmosquito]

Well, considering there are things that can cause ability loss on sight and you're moving all the perception based skills to something else, take a page from the game i'm making and just call it "Blindness"

For the record, there's a very good reason this doesn't work. Part of it is the skills it still has, but the main reason is will saves. Even a creature that causes ability damage on sight is opposed by a will save, because this effect is mind-affecting. It's not the sight of them itself, it's the creature's existence that causes lasting psychological damage and seeing it just makes it undeniable.

[Killdread]

For the record, there's a very good reason this doesn't work. Part of it is the skills it still has, but the main reason is will saves. Even a creature that causes ability damage on sight is opposed by a will save, because this effect is mind-affecting. It's not the sight of them itself, it's the creature's existence that causes lasting psychological damage and seeing it just makes it undeniable.

Maybe, but practically speaking wisdom is such a mess that even trying to make a name that fits it better CAN'T work, because the only skill it has that fits the idea of "wisdom" is Sense Motive (and some versions of Profession) the rest could be said to fit better under INT, WIS giving you Divine spells only makes sense in that it's wise to not piss off the literal gods that can murder you to death with their thoughts, and how having WIS gives you more willpower to resist things doesn't really add up (where blindness at let's you rationalize "i didn't notice it so it didn't happen").

In conclusion you should just give up and cal it ETC.

[Bohandas]

What if we moved concentration to wisdom? That's where it should be anyway. Having it based on CON makes sense as it applies to damaging effects, but having it based on WIS makes sense for all uses.

[Avianmosquito]

What if we moved concentration to wisdom? That's where it should be anyway. Having it based on CON makes sense as it applies to damaging effects, but having it based on WIS makes sense for all uses.

I mentioned this above, actually.

[Deepbluediver]

I can see that working for skill checks, but how exactly does intuition help with will saves? And how does it make sense for it to rise with age?
How much about the rules are you looking to change for your setting?

Personally I prefer Charisma for Will-saves, and I have all stats decrease as you age. The tradeoff is that each age-category you go up you get an extra level, which is supposed to be you having more experience.

[Bohandas]

I can see that working for skill checks, but how exactly does intuition help with will saves?

It makes sense for saves against illusions

[Bohandas]

What if Wisdom was renamed Sensitivity? Referring simultaneously to acuity of the senses, sensitivity to emotions, and the idea of being a sensative (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensitive#Noun) (one with a link to the paranormal)

[Avianmosquito]

How much about the rules are you looking to change for your setting?

Just enough to make the world work.


Personally I prefer Charisma for Will-saves, and I have all stats decrease as you age. The tradeoff is that each age-category you go up you get an extra level, which is supposed to be you having more experience.

That is much of how I handle it, but I give them the one stat that increases.


What if Wisdom was renamed Sensitivity? Referring simultaneously to acuity of the senses, sensitivity to emotions, and the idea of being a sensative (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sensitive#Noun) (one with a link to the paranormal)

Discussed above.

[BlackLamb]

I use Attunement as the Wisdom reskin in my games. One-ness with your inner self and the outer worlds. I lumped the Athletics skill in there and it also affects ranged attack and damage. Zen archers are the default.

I think you're letting your modern, western sensibilities in. Cleric's faith isn't ridiculous in believing in supernatural stuff. In a dnd world, you'd be ridiculous if you didn't. In the pre-modern world, most scientific methods of further studying the world were methods of better understanding the divine design. The ridiculous faith may be in believing that the gods cared for us. In monotheistic cultures, faith can get stretched by believing that The One God is all good and all knowing and all powerful. In polytheistic cultures, clerics don't have to go nearly that far they only need to know how to appease whatever force is in charge of what the cleric wants influenced. Dnd's cleric of one god among many is a way screwing a monotheistic sensibility onto a polytheistic world.

And if a cleric gets magic or other small favors, faith is justified. Any bad things are the result of evil deities or failure to properly appease the correct the deity.

[tedcahill2]

Wisdom is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight.

Wisdom still makes perfect sense to me. A fanatical worshiper may seem off their rocker to the majority of the world, but from their perspective, from their "knowledge, experience, and understanding", they are perfectly in their right mind.

Also consider this, intelligence is a measure of how learned someone is, but it can also be a measure of street smarts or just plain cleverness.

Someone with a small amount of knowledge (low int) can still be very thoughtful and introspective. Like our world today, despite science finding no proof of gods, there are still fanatical worshippers all over the place.

[Kish]

Wisdom still makes perfect sense to me. A fanatical worshiper may seem off their rocker to the majority of the world, but from their perspective, from their "knowledge, experience, and understanding", they are perfectly in their right mind.
I'm pretty sure the intention is that Wisdom has something to do with thinking and acting wisely, not just ability to tune out other perspectives.

By your version, "Wisdom" is actually "Certainty" and the more of it people have, the less wise they actually are. This might be exactly what AvianMosquito is looking for--and in the plus (ahem) column it would justify the "every D&D-world cleric acts like an extra-pushy Jehovah's Witness" thing some DMs favor--but it's rather a stretch to also say the term Wisdom fits it.

[tedcahill2]

I'm pretty sure the intention is that Wisdom has something to do with thinking and acting wisely, not just ability to tune out other perspectives.

By your version, "Wisdom" is actually "Certainty" and the more of it people have, the less wise they actually are. This might be exactly what AvianMosquito is looking for--and in the plus (ahem) column it would justify the "every D&D-world cleric acts like an extra-pushy Jehovah's Witness" thing some DMs favor--but it's rather a stretch to also say the term Wisdom fits it.

Having wisdom and being wise are not necessarily the same. If you get too hung up on the wisdom = wise thing then yeah it doesn't fit. But just like you have can charisma without being attractive, and you can have intelligence without being educated, you can also have wisdom without being wise.

[Avianmosquito]

Having wisdom and being wise are not necessarily the same. If you get too hung up on the wisdom = wise thing then yeah it doesn't fit. But just like you have can charisma without being attractive, and you can have intelligence without being educated, you can also have wisdom without being wise.

I'm just going to immortalise what you just said before you have time to do a shame edit.

[tedcahill2]

I'm just going to immortalise what you just said before you have time to do a shame edit.

Are we talking about "have can"?

[Deepbluediver]

Are we talking about "have can"?
I think the OP is looking for something else to call Wisdom- they are ok with the stat but don't like what the name implies. Something like "perception" or "insight" might better encapsulate what the stat represents.


@OP- would something from my second-favorite online D&D resource help?: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/wisdom?s=t

[tedcahill2]

wisdom is still used for divine casting, the deities these casters worship don't exist
So where does divine magic come from?


While not all clerics believe their deity is literally real, most do
In a standard D&D setting deities are unquestionably real. So is it an establish, and proven, fact that deities aren't real? Or is it more like our current world, where there is no proof of gods, but many still vehemently believe they are?


While wisdom is a flawed and illogical concept already, even proponents of it have to admit it does not fit here, especially for the dangerously delusional fanatics that every religion in Aelsif has among their ranks, many of which are clerics and paladins and need a high wisdom stat to function properly.
Maybe it's sensible that a fanatic have a poor wisdom, it would explain how they became fanatics. Maybe you homebrew a solution, like a feat, where fanatics lose one of their highest level spell slots per day, in exchange for treating their casting stat as an 18 for purposes of setting DCs and the like. That way, they would not have as many spells to cast, but their spells would be just as potent as a more standard caster.

If you're set on changing wisdom to something else, I don't think I can be of additional assistance. I honestly believe it's aptly named. If anything, I would consider changing the primary casting stat to charisma, as a measure of their ability to influence whatever the source of their divine power is.

[Avianmosquito]

So where does divine magic come from?

It's internally generated like any other magic. Magic is magic. The arcane/divine distinction is entirely arbitrary and which classes are considered arcane or divine depends entirely on who you speak to. (In fact, some speakers may correctly identify that there is no such thing as "arcane" and "divine" and the clerics who came up with this idea are silly people who just want to condemn other casters without being seen as a hypocrite.)


In a standard D&D setting deities are unquestionably real. So is it an establish, and proven, fact that deities aren't real? Or is it more like our current world, where there is no proof of gods, but many still vehemently believe they are?

While there is simply no evidence that any gods exist, there is also a fair amount of evidence that at the very least the gods worshipped by the people throughout the world do not exist. So whether there is ultimately some divine power or not, these people are worshipping a fiction.

Now, this is leaving out that some actual beings are worshipped as deities, the kind normally discussed in sentences that end in "fhtagn". While these are powerful cosmic beings, there's really nothing justifying the claim that these entities are deities aside from their immense power and they certainly aren't the deities of a human-centric myth. They aren't creators, they don't care about us, they don't grant spells, they don't hear prayers, they don't reward their followers, one cannot ascend to their level and their existence is so existentially horrifying that just seeing them causes significant psychological damage.


Maybe it's sensible that a fanatic have a poor wisdom, it would explain how they became fanatics. Maybe you homebrew a solution, like a feat, where fanatics lose one of their highest level spell slots per day, in exchange for treating their casting stat as an 18 for purposes of setting DCs and the like. That way, they would not have as many spells to cast, but their spells would be just as potent as a more standard caster.

There's pretty good reasons as to why I'm not mandating characters with any particular religious view have low stats.


If you're set on changing wisdom to something else, I don't think I can be of additional assistance. I honestly believe it's aptly named.

You also think wisdom has nothing to do with being wise.


If anything, I would consider changing the primary casting stat to charisma, as a measure of their ability to influence whatever the source of their divine power is.

Except that they are their own source of power. There is no external source of magic, a cleric or druid is only different from a wizard or sorcerer in how they control their magic. Charisma makes sense for a sorcerer but not a cleric because of their vastly different approach to magic, which would naturally draw off of different attributes.

[tedcahill2]

You also think wisdom has nothing to do with being wise.
I didn't say that. You must have wisdom to be wise, but you aren't always wise just because you have wisdom.


Except that they are their own source of power. There is no external source of magic, a cleric or druid is only different from a wizard or sorcerer in how they control their magic. Charisma makes sense for a sorcerer but not a cleric because of their vastly different approach to magic, which would naturally draw off of different attributes.
I think my vote would go to:

Insight
1. an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding
2. penetrating mental vision or discernment; faculty of seeing into inner character or underlying truth

[Killdread]

Here's a thought that you might just throw out or you might like, you're saying that Magic is Magic and it draws from the same source regardless of if it's "divine" or not, so why not just make a 7th stat for Magic that you link all casters to in place of their current stat and slightly rework INT, CHA, and WIS so they have different names, skills, and uses.

Have concentration and the will save bonus on "WIS", along with other skills that require focus.

Bring Use Rope to INT with Forgery on DEX, put Search into the wisdom replacement in exchange for Heal on INT.

Switch CHA around so it has Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive while the WIS replacement has Intimidate, Handle Animal, and Bluff.

Give the 7th stat of "magic" UMD and Spellcraft

Heck, maybe if you change it to Focus, Intelligence, and Perception you could have something that mostly makes sense, maybe even give Perception the ranged attack bonus instead of DEX.

Then again maybe this would be too far a departure from D&D for your purposes.

[Kish]

...yeah, wouldn't want to get hung up on what the word means or anything.


You must have wisdom to be wise, but you aren't always wise just because you have wisdom.
...dude? That sentence has all the validity--and, frankly, coherence--of, "You must be tall to have height, but you don't necessarily have height just because you're tall." And you're not even trying to support the weird-ass stuff you're saying, just asserting it like we've all agreed that glory means a nice knock-down drag-out fight if you say that's what it means. Having wisdom and being wise are exactly the same thing: two ways of expressing the same concept.

That said, AvianMosquito, does this weird digression hold what you're looking for? Is Certainty the replacement for Wisdom you want?

[Avianmosquito]

I didn't say that. You must have wisdom to be wise, but you aren't always wise just because you have wisdom.

Do I NEED to copy+paste?


I think my vote would go to:

Insight
1. an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding
2. penetrating mental vision or discernment; faculty of seeing into inner character or underlying truth

There's three good reasons why this can't be done.

1. Insight would only work if their worship was of an actual deity that exists. Insight may actually work as a replacement for intelligence, if not for point #3, but it certainly doesn't work here.

2. That's also not how they control their magic. Clerics control their magic through belief and ritualism, they do something they believe will work until it does. Their attribute has to represent their ability to stick with an approach, despite a lack of results and often despite other methods that get results being available to them. Faith and resolve both represent this. Wisdom and insight do not.

3. Insight is already a mechanic in the game.


That said, AvianMosquito, does this weird digression hold what you're looking for? Is Certainty the replacement for Wisdom you want?

Remains to be seen. Ultimately, the stat needs to represent or at least support the "do it until it works" approach to magic, provide the willpower behind will saves, and contain the self control needed for its skills. Faith, discipline, resolve and certainty can each do all these things, though not equally well in all ways. I think certainty in particular lacks any real strength, where faith works best for magic, discipline for skills and resolve for will saves, certainty is in third or fourth place in all of them. I'm not making up my mind yet, but these are the candidates as of the moment and I don't think certainty compares favourably to the other three.

[tedcahill2]

...yeah, wouldn't want to get hung up on what the word means or anything.

...dude? That sentence has all the validity--and, frankly, coherence--of, "You must be tall to have height, but you don't necessarily have height just because you're tall." And you're not even trying to support the weird-ass stuff you're saying, just asserting it like we've all agreed that glory means a nice knock-down drag-out fight if you say that's what it means. Having wisdom and being wise are exactly the same thing: two ways of expressing the same concept.

I don't get why this is hard to explain. Look up the definition of wisdom. It has numerous meanings, one of which is, "the quality of being wise", but it can just as easily be applied to someone that simply has a lot of world experience, or someone that has lived a long time. You aren't wise, simply because you are old or experienced.

Your attempt to contradict my statement is actually proof of it by the way. Whether you are tall or not is a matter of perspective. If you are 5'8" you have height, as height is measurable. Whether you are tall or not will depend on who you stand next to.

Wisdom isn't measurable in the same sense as height is, but for arguments sake lets say it is. You can have wisdom (wisdom being the sum of ones experience and perceptions of the world), but how wise you are will depend on how your actions are perceived by those around you. Being wise is not a catch all term, there is not just one version of being wise. Some would say it's wise to spend less time at work and more time with family, or spend less time sitting and more time excising, or spend less time in front of screens, are we all thus unwise for not heeding that wisdom?

[Kish]

It's hard to "explain" because you're not actually an authority here. You can insist on goofy stuff if you want, but it's not a failing in your audience that you're getting the reaction "LOL, WHAT?"

That said, the amusement value of this ended quickly. Think Wisdom means whatever you want it to mean (though I will pause to point out that you're directly misquoting (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/wisdom?s=t) the dictionary), just don't expect other people to.

[Avianmosquito]

Well this has been a fairly useless digression, but a very effective Aricept commercial.

Since it seems we aren't going to get any new candidates, here are the current ones, arguments for and against. Let's just vote and get this over with before the thread has another senior moment.

Faith: (Fai)
Best for spellcasting, as it is the driving force behind the "do it until it works" method of spellcasting. Works for will saves to a somewhat lesser degree and isn't that great for skills.

Discipline: (Dis)
Works for all three and is the best for skills, as it implies self-control and calmness under pressure that directly benefits most of wisdom's skills. Not as good for casters.

Resolve: (Res)
Works very well for skills and best will saves, but doesn't seem as related to spellcasting.

Devotion: (Dev)
Doesn't work well for casting, but isn't bad for anything else.

Certainty: (Cer)
It works for everything, but not very well at anything. I'm certain (haha, wordplay) this one makes the least sense, but I'm including it anyway.

Or we can just vote to remove some of these from the list, and I'll pick one. Or hey, maybe I'll get into the spirit of things and roll dice, who knows.

[Amechra]

Wait...

So "divine spellcasting" isn't a thing - except you're keeping the divine spellcasting classes, and are still basing them off "Wisdom"? Are you stripping out all the rule distinctions between Arcane/Divine as well, or is the whole thing a setting conceit? Because there are actually some pretty extensive mechanical differences.

I mean, I do agree that Wisdom is a mish-mosh, but I don't think the solution is renaming it. I think the solution is stripping it for parts.

1) The spellcasting goes to Int/Cha, whichever makes most sense. Or you could keep them around (see below).
2) Other than moving Heal to Int and Autohypnosis/Survival to Con, I think you could keep the rest of the skills right where they are.
3) Call "Wis" Coherence (COH)
4) Call "Will saves" Stability saves (STAB)

The idea is to re-contextualize it - rather than being about "Wisdom" or whatever, it's about your ability to build a coherent world-model in your head.

1) The skills it kept are entirely sensory - you're taking outside information and comparing it to what you expect to find.
2) It makes sense as the ability score that fuels the save that protects you from mind control, illusions, and mind-shattering truths that man was not meant to know.
3) Heck, you could keep spellcasting too - you've got the mental hygiene and iron worldview to handle spells.

=---=

Of course, I kind of disagree with what you're attempting on a fundamental level (you're going to have to change enough stuff that the "name brand" recognition you'd get from using D&D is disingenuous), but who am I to judge?

[Avianmosquito]

Of course, I kind of disagree with what you're attempting on a fundamental level (you're going to have to change enough stuff that the "name brand" recognition you'd get from using D&D is disingenuous), but who am I to judge?

If you think this no longer qualifies as D&D because of these changes alone, I can only imagine what your opinions are on other editions. Or any campaign setting that isn't Greyhawk, for that matter. "Eberron has these weird dragonmark things, and kobolds are dragon relatives, and drows have a thing for scorpions instead of spiders? Then they've changed enough stuff that the 'name brand' recognition they get from using D&D is disingenuous."

[Amechra]

If you think this no longer qualifies as D&D because of these changes alone, I can only imagine what your opinions are on other editions. Or any campaign setting that isn't Greyhawk, for that matter. "Eberron has these weird dragonmark things, and kobolds are dragon relatives, and drows have a thing for scorpions instead of spiders? Then they've changed enough stuff that the 'name brand' recognition they get from using D&D is disingenuous."

I think I'll respond to this with another quote:


Yeah, well I said I had different goals with Aelsif. I want to use the core framework of a game we're all familiar with in a setting designed for more serious campaigns, including horror campaigns which simply don't function in D&D otherwise.

Emphasis mine.

My complaint comes down to feel - D&D is kind of old comfort food to me. I've not played 3.5 in 4-ish years (too busy playing other games, and the main people I game with aren't fans), so my perspective on it is that, well...

If I sat down at your table, and saw that you replaced Wisdom while still saying that we were playing D&D, I'd suffer some cognitive dissonance - it'd be like you replaced the tomatoes in my chili with potatoes. The problem is that I'm not sure the extent of your changes - like I asked earlier, is the whole "no distinction between arcane and divine" thing just a setting conceit, or are you actually going to remove the pre-existing mechanical difference between arcane and divine magic?

It'd really help if there was some central thread somewhere, easily found through your signature, that indicated what you were planning on changing and your goals with this setting.

[Avianmosquito]

My complaint comes down to feel - D&D is kind of old comfort food to me. I've not played 3.5 in 4-ish years (too busy playing other games, and the main people I game with aren't fans), so my perspective on it is that, well...

If I sat down at your table, and saw that you replaced Wisdom while still saying that we were playing D&D, I'd suffer some cognitive dissonance - it'd be like you replaced the tomatoes in my chili with potatoes.

Would it help if I came up with an edition name for Aelsif's version of the ruleset? Would that prepare you, mentally, for the differences the way you'd be prepared if you sat down to play 2, 4 or 5?


The problem is that I'm not sure the extent of your changes -

Most of its differences are in content, not rules, but there are some rule differences. This is the largest one, however.


like I asked earlier, is the whole "no distinction between arcane and divine" thing just a setting conceit, or are you actually going to remove the pre-existing mechanical difference between arcane and divine magic?

Which differences? That divine casters get all spells of their level as soon as a level is unlocked? They keep that. That clerics get a domain spell? That one was removed. That divine casters can cast in armour? That's kept, but some degree of armoured casting is now available to arcane casters as well (though very little for most of them). It really depends what rules, specifically, you want to know about.


It'd really help if there was some central thread somewhere, easily found through your signature, that indicated what you were planning on changing and your goals with this setting.

I'll put one up after I'm done creating a new creature for the CR assignment thread.

[Avianmosquito]

I decided, in the end, to do a complete replacement of Wisdom.

The new stat is Faith. It does a lot wisdom did, specifically in that it is used for spellcasting by the same set of classes, boosts will saves and rises with age. However, it has very few skills. These are autohypnosis and concentration, it has nothing else. It would have control shape if the setting of Aelsif allowed for such a skill, and perhaps it will, but first I have to figure out how to use control shape to affect slow, permanent transformations.

Faith is not underpowered, though, if anything it's a bit stronger than wisdom. It provides spell resistance. Now, base spell resistance is just a thing in Aelsif, but it starts at 5 and does not scale with level in this version. There are plenty of ways to increase it, but you need to actively keep it up or it falls behind. Faith is one such thing, adding its modifier directly to your spell resistance. Other than that, your only choice would be to invest in feats to boost your spell resistance. This spell resistance is your replacement for all of wisdom's skills, which all got shifted to intelligence and charisma. Let me know if you think it's enough, too little or too much.