Divine Raven Shuffle

[Darrin]

While mucking around with a Ruby Knight Vindicator build (this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21712561&postcount=10), if you're curious), I was fiddling around with the Divine Recovery/Divine Impetus combo (made somewhat famous by endersdouble's Spank (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717222709/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=764997) build). Outside of the dubiousness of using WRT on yourself, Divine Impetus doesn't quite work the way it was intended because as a (Su) ability, it defaults to a standard action, and although the text implies that it should be a free action, it doesn't actually say that. So Divine Impetus, by RAW, lets you trade a standard action for a swift action... which you can already do somewhat by using the "Ready an Action" rules to ready a swift action (Rules Compendium p. 110).

Anyway, after pondering this a bit, it occurred to me that Divine Impetus may not be necessary to get an obscenely large number of actions out of your Turn Undead pool. So, assuming we have a build with at least two levels of RKV, observe:

T1: Full attack or move/standard action. Swift action -> activate WRT on yourself.
T2: Move action. Swift action -> Divine Recovery to get WRT back. Ready a standard action to trigger just after your current turn ends.
T3: Readied action, which can be a standard attack of some sort. Swift action -> activate WRT on yourself.
T4: Move action. Swift action -> Divine Recovery to get WRT back. Ready a standard action to trigger just after your current turn ends.
T5: Readied standard action. Swift action -> activate WRT on yourself.
T6: Rinse & Repeat.

Basically, when your readied action comes up, it's your turn again... but since you haven't used a swift action on this particular turn, you still have a swift available to activate WRT. When WRT gives you another turn, you also get a swift action on that turn, which you can use to activate Divine Recovery. Assuming you have a very large number of Turn Undead (TU) attempts via Nightsticks or whatnot (I'm looking at you, bone talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)...), you can ride the initiative account right down to the bottom, and then keep going, setting your trigger to whoever acts at the top of the next round.

This is somewhat more efficient than the full Divine Recovery/Divine Impetus combo, as each iteration only requires 1 TU. It's not *quite* a full turn or full attack, just a standard action. But there are a lot of interesting things you can do with a standard action. There's also the move action that could be used for something. So, a little brainstorming:

Move Actions

Move to a different target, because you just murderhoboed your current target.
Improved Feint. Max out bluff, and make all your standard actions sneak attacks.
Cloak Dance (XPH).
Psionic Meditation (XPH)
Thwack people with a Rod of Ropes (Complete Mage).
Mantis Leap (Sword & Fist).
Roof-Jumper's "Death from Above" (Cityscape)


Standard Actions

Just... hit something with a sharp object, maybe?
Eldritch Blast
DFA breath weapon
Manyshot/Greater Manyshot
Linked Power (energy ray + synchronicity) + Metapower (0 PP)
Unarmed Strike/Snap Kick/Oxyrhynchus (denied Dex bonus due to Improved Feint)
Mantis Leap (again)
Roof-Jumper's "Death from Above" (again)


So... I've already got some ideas for a Roof-Jumper build that I'll probably post later when I've worked out some of the kinks. What I could use some help with:

Assume you've got an obscenely large number of TUs. For each TU, you generate a move action and a standard action. What would you do with these actions? Anything I can add to the lists above?

[Edit: Oh wow... I just thought of a great build for Order of the Bow Initiate.]

[Another Edit: Hey, when Divine Impetus finally comes online, we can ready that instead... two swift actions a turn, so we can use Divine Recovery again on a different maneuver and activate WRT on the readied turn.]

[Darrin]

It occurred to me after my first post that this "trick" really boils down to parsing the "ready an action" rules to get an extra swift action every round.

Normal turn: (move action, standard action, swift action). Or (full round action, swift action).

"Readied" turn: (move action, swift action) + (standard action, swift action).

The crux of it is the rules treat your readied action as if it were a separate turn. And since you get one swift action every turn, you're essentially doubling the number of swift actions you get in a round. At least, I think it does, and so far no one is arguing otherwise.

This has implications for spellcasters, namely:

Turn 1: Move action, cast swift action spell, ready standard action spell cast immediately after this turn.
Turn 2: Cast standard action spell, cast swift action spell.

Assuming you have quickened spells up the wazoo, there's a similar "once per turn" limit that you can split up this way.

Anyway. Back to RKV, a simple Roof-Jumper build:

Race: Dragonborn whatever.
1) Barb 1. Feat: TWF. Spirit Lion Totem/Whirling Frenzy.
2) Fighter 1. Bonus: Dodge.
3) Fighter 2. Bonus: Mobility. Feat: Roofwalker.
4) Cleric 1.
5) Crusader 1.
6) RKV 1. Feat: Roof-Walker.
7) RKV 2. White Raven Tactics. Divine Recovery.

Every move or standard action, fly up above your opponent and then drop down for a full attack. Two full attacks for every TU.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The crux of it is the rules treat your readied action as if it were a separate turn. And since you get one swift action every turn, you're essentially doubling the number of swift actions you get in a round. At least, I think it does, and so far no one is arguing otherwise.

This has implications for spellcasters, namely:

Turn 1: Move action, cast swift action spell, ready standard action spell cast immediately after this turn.
Turn 2: Cast standard action spell, cast swift action spell.

Assuming you have quickened spells up the wazoo, there's a similar "once per turn" limit that you can split up this way.
The Rules Compendium writes (1), so initially, I thought you might be limited to one swift per round, barring specific exceptions (which Ready doesn't have). Later on, however, there's (2), which is all good, and how I'd expected the rule in the first place.

(1)
During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action, and as many free actions as your DM allows.

(2)
You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn.

If this does work, you're going to have lots of fun with arcane spellsurge. I think schism might also work, but it's worded a bit weirdly (3). I think 'round' and 'turn' are confused in the first sentence, just like how they are mixed up in (1) and (2).

(3)
Your new "second mind" does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

[...]

Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested.

Of course, the most ridiculous power to apply this to would be synchronicity. As long as you have power points, you can manifest a chain of synchronicity Linked synchronicity-s, using your swift actions to refocus (through hustle).

[Darrin]

If this does work, you're going to have lots of fun with arcane spellsurge.


I looked at arcane spellsurge, and by my count... looks like you could get three standard action spells off per round while it's in effect. Adding arcane fusion could be even more interesting.



Of course, the most ridiculous power to apply this to would be synchronicity. As long as you have power points, you can manifest a chain of synchronicity Linked synchronicity-s, using your swift actions to refocus (through hustle).

I've never been entirely clear on if you can link a power to itself. If you can, then adding Metapower to Linked synchronicity reduces the PP cost to zero. So long as you spend a move action to refocus... does that mean you are infinitely manifesting synchronicity every round?

Might be better to link synchronicity to a 1st-level swift action power, such as dimension hop:

Round 1:
T1: Swift action -> dimension hop 10'. Move action -> refocus. Ready action -> standard.
T2: Readied standard action. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.

Round 2:
T3: Synchro 1 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T4: Synchro 2 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T5: (Actual turn) Move action to refocus. Standard action -> Ready move action. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T6: Readied move action to refocus. Swift -> dimension hop 10'.

Round 3:
T7: Synchro 1 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T8: Synchro 2 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T9: Synchro 3 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T10: Synchro 4 -> move action to refocus. Swift action -> dimension hop 10'.
T11: (Actual turn) ...

Holy ****, I think I broke something...

(I'm still kinda fuzzy on psionics.)

[Firest Kathon]

The crux of it is the rules treat your readied action as if it were a separate turn.

Can you point out a source for that? Going from the D20 SRD definition of readying an action, I see this (emphasis by me):

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
So from this sentence it is explicitly not your turn when you take the readied action.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I've never been entirely clear on if you can link a power to itself. If you can, then adding Metapower to Linked synchronicity reduces the PP cost to zero. So long as you spend a move action to refocus... does that mean you are infinitely manifesting synchronicity every round?
You can, but Metapower cannot reduce the cost to zero, and neither can a torc of power preservation. Metapower can reduce the adjustment for Linked to zero, resulting in an overall cost of 1 pp. In addition, you need to expend your psionic focus, and refocussing with hustle costs 3 pp, or 2 pp with the torc.

I think linking to a 1 pp swift action power can certainly work, but I'd consider linking to hustle instead - specifically the 3 pp Freedom mantle hustle that is available to Dominant Ideal ardents. Synchronicity is regrettably not on any mantle, so you need to pay to have it implanted or something.

With hustle (H), synchronicity (S), Linked Power (link), Twin Power (twin), a torc, Psicrystal Containment (PC), Metapower x3 (S link, S twin, H twin), and Dominant Ideal (DI): Freedom, you can do a shuffle like this:



Round
Turn
Action
Power
Result
Cost


1
0 (actual)
Swift
twin (H link S)
H1.1, H1.2; next round: S2.1, S2.2
DI: no focus cost. Cost 5 pp.




Standard
twin (S link S)
S1.1, S1.2; next round: S2.3, S2.4
Cost 2 focus (regular + PC). Cost 5 pp.




H1.1 + H1.2
Refocus

Gain 2 focus.




Move


Free; maybe hide or something



1 (S1.1)
Swift
twin (H link S)
H1.3, H1.4; next round: S2.5, S2.6
DI: no focus cost. Cost 5 pp.




Standard
twin (S link S)
S1.3, S1.4; next round: S2.7, S2.8
Cost 2 focus (regular + PC). Cost 5 pp.




H1.3 + H1.4
Refocus

Gain 2 focus.



2 (S1.2)
Swift
twin (H link S)
H1.5, H1.6; next round: S2.9, S2.10
DI: no focus cost. Cost 5 pp.




Standard
twin (S link S)
S1.5, S1.6; next round: S2.11, S2.12
Cost 2 focus (regular + PC). Cost 5 pp.




H1.5 + H1.6
Refocus

Gain 2 focus.


...
...
...
...
...
...



As you can see, by the time you've used up your original turn synchronicities 1.1 and 1.2, you've already spent 30 pp, and you have spawned four more readied actions this round, and twelve more next round. You use 10 pp for the initial actions, 20 pp to double those, 40 pp for the next generation, and so on. An optimized ardent can probably do 5 generations: 10 + 20 + 40 + 80 + 160 = 310 pp (the next step puts the cost at 630 pp, which is quite high). At that point, you have 25 = 32 readied actions this turn, and 4 × (1 + 2 + 22 + 23 + 24) = 124 next turn. I think that's probably enough.



P.S. I don't think this is the most efficient chain you can get. You can get better mileage by hiding the metapsionic costs under a layer of Metapower (H link), one more Metapower than assumed above. For example, a twin (H link (twin S)) gets you two moves and four readied actions, at a cost of one focus and 6 pp. The cost breaks down as follows: base cost of (twin S) is 7 pp, reduced to 5 pp with Metapower. The cost of (H link (twin S)) is 3 + 5 = 8 pp, reduced to 4 pp with Metapower and DI. The cost of twin (H link (S link S)) is 4 + 6 pp, reduced to 6 pp with Metapower and DI. That's 1 pp per action, not bad at all.
You can save a lot more pp by adding synchronicity and hustle to one DI, but that requires custom mantles. That would also allow you to do shuffles like (twinn (S link (twinn-1 (S link (...)))) with a pp cost of 2 pp for n > 1, and no focus cost. It's the brute force of a 4 pp cost reduction to both twin and link that does it. Straight-up chain-twinning costs a lot more.
A third option is to use some of your actions on (S link bestow power), which costs 1 pp to bestow 2 pp (note: still assuming Metapower and torc). This can, of course, be sped up with a bestow power DI and Midnight Augmentation, requiring more feats and custom mantles.

P.P.S. Not everybody accepts that you can twin (S link S) for four synchronicities. I think you can, just like you can Extend persistent spells for a 48h duration, but it's certainly good for balance to rule that you can't. Chaining metapsionic feats is even worse for balance, but metapsionic feats do not have a clause that prevents meta'd powers from being meta'd.
Similarly, I suppose you might not allow Psionic Meditation to work with Psicrystal Containment, in which case refocussing your crystal takes a full-round action.

P.P.P.S. I'm allowing Metapower and DI to modify each application of a metapsionic feat, so a chain of (H link (H link (H link (...)))) would cost 2 pp, and no foci, thanks to DI. The actions would go off on consecutive rounds, which is why I'm not using it in the example above, but in principle, you could get an extra move action at the start of each round forever, for only 2 pp.
The torc only modifies the final pp expenditure.

[Darrin]

Can you point out a source for that?

I have two arguments for this, but neither is ironclad.

1) PHB p. 160: "Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action"

Your initiative count determines when you take your turn. Therefore, changing your initiative count to the current count means it is currently your turn. And the rest of the language on page 160 supports that, as your new initiative count becomes when you take your turn during the round.

(This argument is undermined somewhat by the use of the past tense... as in, it looks like your initiative count doesn't change until after the readied action has been taken.)

2) You are allowed to take free actions when performing another action. PHB p. 139:

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

XPH p. 59:

"You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action."

A swift action is a type of free action. When performing a readied action, you can take free actions. However, you are limited to one swift action per turn. There are two possibilities here:

1) It is currently your turn when you take a readied action. 1 swift action allowed, so you should be good.

2) It is not currently your turn when you take a readied action. However, it is somebody else's turn, and you have not used a swift action yet during that turn. Thus, you can still use a swift action during that turn.

[Darrin]

You can, but Metapower cannot reduce the cost to zero, and neither can a torc of power preservation. Metapower can reduce the adjustment for Linked to zero, resulting in an overall cost of 1 pp. In addition, you need to expend your psionic focus, and refocussing with hustle costs 3 pp, or 2 pp with the torc.


Urk. Ok, I think I was really confused about how Metapower works then:

"The cost of modifying your chosen power with metapsionic feats is reduced by 2 power points (to a minimum extra cost of 0 power points)."

I thought 1 PP + 1 PP - 2 PP = 0 PP.

But if I understand you correctly... the cost to increase dimension hop linked to synchronicity is 1 PP, because that's the "increased" PP cost, not the total PP cost.

So... that's still kinda cheap, but not really an infinitely forking loop.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Urk. Ok, I think I was really confused about how Metapower works then:

"The cost of modifying your chosen power with metapsionic feats is reduced by 2 power points (to a minimum extra cost of 0 power points)."

I thought 1 PP + 1 PP - 2 PP = 0 PP.

But if I understand you correctly... the cost to increase dimension hop linked to synchronicity is 1 PP, because that's the "increased" PP cost, not the total PP cost.

So... that's still kinda cheap, but not really an infinitely forking loop.
Well, it says "minimum extra cost", which I take to be the metapsionic cost, not the final cost.

As for the infinite loop: you still can, using (H linked (H linked (...))) with DI, but that's so very cheesy, I wouldn't suggest it outside a Swiss orgy.

[Firest Kathon]

I have two arguments for this, but neither is ironclad.

1) PHB p. 160: "Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action"

Your initiative count determines when you take your turn. Therefore, changing your initiative count to the current count means it is currently your turn. And the rest of the language on page 160 supports that, as your new initiative count becomes when you take your turn during the round.

(This argument is undermined somewhat by the use of the past tense... as in, it looks like your initiative count doesn't change until after the readied action has been taken.)
While the initiative count determines when you take your turn, that does not mean that it is always your turn when that initative count is up. For example, if another creature has the same initiative count as you, you act on the same initiative count but it is first your turn and then the other creatures turn (or the other way round).


2) You are allowed to take free actions when performing another action. PHB p. 139:

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

XPH p. 59:

"You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action."

A swift action is a type of free action. When performing a readied action, you can take free actions. However, you are limited to one swift action per turn. There are two possibilities here:

1) It is currently your turn when you take a readied action. 1 swift action allowed, so you should be good.

2) It is not currently your turn when you take a readied action. However, it is somebody else's turn, and you have not used a swift action yet during that turn. Thus, you can still use a swift action during that turn.

I would here cite the Rules Compendium (pg. 7), which is newer than the XPH (at least the editions I have) and clears this up:

You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn.
This would mean that you cannot take a swift action during another's turn. The same is true, by the way, for free actions:

You can perform one or more free actions during your turn.
To use a free action outside your turn you would have to ready it (except speaking):

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
As readying an action is always a standard action, you can only ready one of those per (your) turn.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I just realized that there is a very good reason to ban swift-during-ready, leaving aside the RAW debate (which I'm not entering into). You can nest readied actions and get infinite swifts on a given initiative count, which translates into - for example - infinite spells with arcane spellsurge.

[Darrin]

This would mean that you cannot take a swift action during another's turn. The same is true, by the way, for free actions:


There's still the general rule from PHB p. 139:

"You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally."

This is necessary because some standard actions, such as firing a bow or casting a spell can't be performed unless you can draw ammunition or retrieve spell components.

So if these free actions can be performed when it's "not my turn", then why exactly can't I use a swift here, as it is a type of free action, and I haven't used one that turn yet?

(It's not a particularly strong argument. Near as I can tell, the designers didn't explore too deeply into readied actions or swift actions, and this is an area where "common sense" is probably the best guide.)


I just realized that there is a very good reason to ban swift-during-ready, leaving aside the RAW debate (which I'm not entering into). You can nest readied actions and get infinite swifts on a given initiative count, which translates into - for example - infinite spells with arcane spellsurge.

Good point, but this is already covered by the rules. The DM can limit the number of free actions that you can perform. So if you're trying to nest readied actions to get a swift action (a type of free action) on every initiative count, then the DM has a rule he can use to shut it down.

There's also the argument that nesting a readied action doesn't appear to be an action in and of itself: you don't get a swift there. You can keep delaying down the initiative count, but until you have an action to perform, you don't get the swift along with it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Good point, but this is already covered by the rules. The DM can limit the number of free actions that you can perform. So if you're trying to nest readied actions to get a swift action (a type of free action) on every initiative count, then the DM has a rule he can use to shut it down.

There's also the argument that nesting a readied action doesn't appear to be an action in and of itself: you don't get a swift there. You can keep delaying down the initiative count, but until you have an action to perform, you don't get the swift along with it.
The first is too close to rule 0 and the Oberoni fallacy for comfort. The second is wrong: ready is a standard, and nesting doesn't change that.

Readying is itself a standard action. You can ready any standard action. To get infinite swifts, you ready the action "ready this action"*, with the trigger "this action"**. Immediately, your topmost readied action happens. As part of this action, you take your swift action, and you have readied another infinite chain. Immediately, your topmost readied action happens. This repeats recursively forever.

I wouldn't particularly worry about the practical consequences of this kind of chaining - Rule 0 will protect us, Oberoni or no - but when highly unusual rules interpretations rapidly lead to infinites of anything, it's about time to question whether the finite results of the interpretation are worth the 'singularities', so to speak. For practical use of the rule, it may be worth setting a limit to the number of swifts you can obtain in a round.


*If you don't like the recursive format, you can ready an arbitrarily large number of actions: "I ready an action to ready an action to ready an action ... to ready an action to twist my hair."
**Or equivalent.

[Darrin]

The first is too close to rule 0 and the Oberoni fallacy for comfort.


It's not quite Rule 0. It's an actual printed rule.

PHB p. 135: "You may also perform one or more free actions along with any other action, as your DM allows."

PHB p. 137: "You can also take free actions during the surprise round, at the DM’s discretion."

PHB p. 138: "You can also perform as many free actions (see below) as your DM allows."

PHB p. 139: "However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what you can really do for free."

Essentially, the DM has to decide how many free actions can reasonably be performed during your turn. Yes, it's completely arbitrary and something more than a guideline than a hard rule, but it's not quite Rule 0.



The second is wrong: ready is a standard, and nesting doesn't change that.


It's hair-splitting, but is readying an action the same as performing an action? If there's no action to perform, then no free/swift to go along with it.

Anyway... I think I'm getting just a little too far down the Black Hole of Pedantry to be practical. The combo is somewhat salvageable if you can do something interesting with a move action, such as attack via Mantis Leap/Battle-Jumper:

T1: Move action -> Death From Above (DFA). Swift action -> White Raven Tactics (WRT). Standard action -> ready Divine Recovery.
T1.5: Readied Divine Recovery to get WRT back.
T2: (WRT turn) Move action -> DFA. Swift action -> WRT. Standard action -> ready Divine Recovery.
T2.5: Readied Divine Recovery to get WRT back.
T3: Rinse & Repeat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Essentially, the DM has to decide how many free actions can reasonably be performed during your turn. Yes, it's completely arbitrary and something more than a guideline than a hard rule, but it's not quite Rule 0.
Okaaay... but that doesn't save it from falling under the Oberoni fallacy, which was the operative point.


It's hair-splitting, but is readying an action the same as performing an action?
Readying an action is an action you perform (a standard action, to be precise). It is not the same as the action you are readying. Take X to be a standard action. X and Ready(X) are both standard actions, but X =/= Ready(X).


Edit: and Readyn(X) =/= X for all n.


Anyway... I think I'm getting just a little too far down the Black Hole of Pedantry to be practical. The combo is somewhat salvageable if you can do something interesting with a move action, such as attack via Mantis Leap/Battle-Jumper:

T1: Move action -> Death From Above (DFA). Swift action -> White Raven Tactics (WRT). Standard action -> ready Divine Recovery.
T1.5: Readied Divine Recovery to get WRT back.
T2: (WRT turn) Move action -> DFA. Swift action -> WRT. Standard action -> ready Divine Recovery.
T2.5: Readied Divine Recovery to get WRT back.
T3: Rinse & Repeat.
Hmmm, this made me think of nilshai (and Telflammar Shadowlord, of course). Nilshai can go ethereal as a free action, and material as a move action (they also get an extra 'partial action' per round, but ignoring that for the moment). Is there a way to get a benefit out of turning material? Shadowpounce definitely doesn't work, as ethereal jaunt is a transmutation spell, for some unholy reason, and it doesn't have the [teleportation] descriptor, despite being blocked by dimensional anchor. Plane shift (from the ethereal) does work, but the only creature I know of to get plane shift as a move action is the epic 32 HD/CR 26 brain collector (so I guess if we want to optimize a brain collector, we now know to add some RKV/TFSL).

[Doctor Awkward]

...
Basically, when your readied action comes up, it's your turn again...

No it's not.

"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready)

As the link states, during your turn you spend your standard action to ready either a standard, move, or a free action. You must specify, to the DM's satisfaction, what action you are going to take and precisely what the trigger will be.

You cannot ready more than one action, nor can you take any action out of turn that you did not ready for.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You cannot ready more than one action, nor can you take any action out of turn that you did not ready for.
The Rules Compendium doesn't mention a limit. You can ready as many actions as you want.

[Darrin]

As the link states, during your turn you spend your standard action to ready either a standard, move, or a free action. You must specify, to the DM's satisfaction, what action you are going to take and precisely what the trigger will be.


My reasoning was, readying causes your initiative count to match the current turn. Therefore, the readied action you are now performing is considered to be on your turn. But this isn't a particularly effective argument, since the change in initiative count doesn't actually happen until after the action has been performed. It more or less boils down to "I am currently acting now, so therefore it must be my turn." This is not a particularly strong argument.

So my next argument was, I am performing a readied action not necessarily on my turn, but on someone else's turn (assuming every initiative count represents an abstract "someone" that could potentially act rather than an actual combatant), and I'm limited to one swift action per turn if I haven't used a swift yet, so I can perform one now. Based on the wording in the PHB/XPH, this is technically RAW, but fails most rudimentary "DM Calls Bullsh!t" tests.

The counter-argument here is the Rules Compendium changed the wording on swift actions from "You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions" to "You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn".

My counter-counter-argument is a general rule that says you can perform free actions while taking another action normally. If you have an absolute rule that no free actions of any kind can be performed outside of your turn (other than immediate actions and some incidental talking), then it's not possible to ready a bow attack or cast a spell, as those require a free action to complete (drawing ammunition/spell components). If those free actions are allowed outside of your turn, then why wouldn't a swift be allowed?

This is not a strong argument, mostly because the designers did not think it necessary to parse the mechanics of readying/swift actions down to this level of detail, probably because they felt this was an area where "use your common sense" would be an adequate guideline.

And I think ExLibrisMortis has the gripping hand here: If my interpretation of the rules results in an infinite loop of readied/swift actions, then that's pretty compelling evidence that my interpretation is borked beyond any practical implementation.

[Firest Kathon]

The Rules Compendium doesn't mention a limit. You can ready as many actions as you want.
You can ready as many actions as you have standard actions available on your turn, as the act of readying an(y) action is a standard action itself. Therefor, if on your turn you use your standard action to ready another action, you have (usually) no standard actions left to ready another action. If you refer to your stacking of ready actions ("I ready an action to ready an action etc"), then there is no limit for that.


The counter-argument here is the Rules Compendium changed the wording on swift actions from "You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions" to "You can take a swift action any time during your turn, but you can perform only one swift action per turn".

My counter-counter-argument is a general rule that says you can perform free actions while taking another action normally. If you have an absolute rule that no free actions of any kind can be performed outside of your turn (other than immediate actions and some incidental talking), then it's not possible to ready a bow attack or cast a spell, as those require a free action to complete (drawing ammunition/spell components). If those free actions are allowed outside of your turn, then why wouldn't a swift be allowed?

Two responses to that:

In my opinion, the Rules Compendion's text also overrides the XPH rule of "You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.", making the discussion on the timing of free actions not relevant to the timing of swift actions.
for the examplew you listed, you could easily do the required free actions on your turn (draw the ammunition, take the spell components into your hand) and then you can perform your readied action without the need for free actions. But I feel that this is now really down to hair-splitting, so this is not a point that I want to discuss about further.



This is not a strong argument, mostly because the designers did not think it necessary to parse the mechanics of readying/swift actions down to this level of detail, probably because they felt this was an area where "use your common sense" would be an adequate guideline.

And I think ExLibrisMortis has the gripping hand here: If my interpretation of the rules results in an infinite loop of readied/swift actions, then that's pretty compelling evidence that my interpretation is borked beyond any practical implementation.
I fully agree with that :smallcool:.