Dragonfire Adept: Are Breath Effects on par with Invocations?

[tedcahill2]

If I remove breath effects as a class feature, but increase invocations known would that be a worthy trade?

Are the abilities gains by breath effects roughly as powerful as invocations? If a DFA wanted to skip getting any breath effects and just get invocations, or vice versa, would there be a major balance shift?

Edit: I would add the breath effects into the invocations list. It would give the player the option to take a breath effect as an invocation like a warlock can.

[Troacctid]

Breath effects are about as powerful as eldritch essence invocations.

[ImperatorV]

Dragonfire Adepts generally need some breath effects, if only because fire damage is a commonly resisted type. Most breath effects are equal to or worse then a good invocation though, so balance wise there shouldn't be too much of a change. Basically you're giving them the ability to trade versatility in damage types for more invocations.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A lot of the goodness of DFA is contained in its breath effects. Weakening, Slow, and Thundering provide a lot of options (Thundering is great for destroying objects quickly), so they would lose out there. Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat and Discorporating Bdeath of Bahamut are also a lot of their damage late game, so there goes that. Also a lot of their higher end invocations are pretty meh (Dark leaves me underwhelmed) so I think overall it would be a huge loss. You would be better off by far playing a warlock with no blast shape or eldritch-themed essence evocation since at least you can reliably poke for damage and simply have more good choices.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A lot of the goodness of DFA is contained in its breath effects. Weakening, Slow, and Thundering provide a lot of options (Thundering is great for destroying objects quickly), so they would lose out there. Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat and Discorporating Bdeath of Bahamut are also a lot of their damage late game, so there goes that. Also a lot of their higher end invocations are pretty meh (Dark leaves me underwhelmed) so I think overall it would be a huge loss. You would be better off by far playing a warlock with no blast shape or eldritch-themed essence evocation since at least you can reliably poke for damage and simply have more good choices.
This one. You can sort of get by earlier on, but the Warlock gets a lot more offensive invocations-- The Dead Walk, Curse of Despair, Chilling Tentacles, Painful Whisper of the Ages, Impentrable Barrier, and Word of Changing all offer excellent ways of contributing to a fight without ever touching your blast, and the DFA can't really match that. (Frightful Presence? Humanoid Shape? I guess Baleful Geas is arguably a standard action, making it no-save mind control; Chilling Fog is pretty good, Terrifying Roar is okay, Wingstorm is pretty bad). If you had a better BAB, you could make a decent fighter-y thing with Humanoid Shape and Draconic Knowledge/Knowledge Devotion, but... I think you lose too much without the breath wep

[Troacctid]

Chilling Fog is actually probably better than any of the Warlock's BFC options. Unfortunately, the other DFA greaters are kinda janky in comparison. Baleful Geas is okay, I guess. If you had to take a greater invocation instead of a breath effect at level 15, I would honestly say that would be a huge nerf to the class. The third greater invocation is so much worse than the breath effects at that level.

[tedcahill2]

Chilling Fog is actually probably better than any of the Warlock's BFC options. Unfortunately, the other DFA greaters are kinda janky in comparison. Baleful Geas is okay, I guess. If you had to take a greater invocation instead of a breath effect at level 15, I would honestly say that would be a huge nerf to the class. The third greater invocation is so much worse than the breath effects at that level.

I failed horribly in my OP. Please re-read the post.

[Snowbluff]

I guess Baleful Geas is arguably a standard action, making it no-save mind control

Well, if you mean to use it in a fight, they could just not obey you. The effects take days to manifest.

[Troacctid]

I failed horribly in my OP. Please re-read the post.
Sooo the main problem with making breath effects into invocations and freeing up breath effect slots for any invocation is that breath effects use a different grading system than invocations. I assume they would still use their usual level requirements, rather than being assorted into least, lesser, greater, and dark? It would probably work okay. I expect that most builds will ditch the breath effect at 2nd level in favor of an invocation, and ditch the invocation at 13th and 18th in favor of breath effects; however, the 5th and 15th level slots are still going to be 100% locked into breath effects guaranteed. 10th is a bit more up in the air, since the breath effects there are great, but there are also enough good lessers for the slot to be competitive.


Well, if you mean to use it in a fight, they could just not obey you. The effects take days to manifest.
No. The creature is compelled to obey. It has no choice.

[tedcahill2]

No. The creature is compelled to obey. It has no choice.

Don't they just take 3d6 damage per day they resist the geas?

[Tiri]

Don't they just take 3d6 damage per day they resist the geas?

They can't resist it, but if they are prevented from carrying out the specified course of action they take the damage.

[Grod_The_Giant]

They can't resist it, but if they are prevented from carrying out the specified course of action they take the damage.
This.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes...If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores.
Emphasis mine.