Deleted
2017-02-18, 08:38 AM
So, I've been thinking about 3e, 4e, and 5e and how each system does attacks and saving throws.
I think a great system is close when you take each and bring them together. There is a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't care about my background thoughts :p (I won't judge you).
3e
Attacks versus AC, flat footed AC, and touch AC.
Saving throws versus fort (con), ref (dex), or will (wis)
The problem with attacks is that it got too fiddly and it wasn't clear why certain attacks targeted AC, Touch AC, or FF AC but not the others. The rules were a bit inconsistent at times.
Saving throws had the problem of focusing on three of the ability scores and causing the others to be dumpable.
4e
Attacks were against AC, Fort, Ref, and Will. This rubbed some people the wrong way as they liked the saving throw system of 3e. Fort (STR or Con), Ref (Dex or Int), and Will (Wis or Cha)
Saving Throws were roll a d20 and compare to DC 10... Very few modifiers... People weren't happy about this simplicstic approach.
Problem with attacks were that people like their saving throws. Attack rolls and saves are just "backwards" mechanics. Many people took issue with Int being tied to reflex but not seeing through illusions... It was less that Int could be used for ref and more that it became a physical defense but not a mental one.
The problem with saving throws... The DC was never based off the person who caused the effect. The hit was, but people were used to having their character cause the DC to go up. Many effects happened for at least 1 round and then a possibility of save ends but longer lasting debuffs just didn't happen as much.
5e
Attacks: All attacks versus AC.
Saving throws: All ability scores gain their own saving throws. Some are tied to skills and are used in ability checks to stop the creature from being affected by a spell or effect.
There really isn't a huge problem with attacks in theory. Sweet and simple but...
Saving throws have a huuuuge problem. Some saving throws weigh more than others and if you don't focus on a save, you actually get worse at making that save versus the same threat as time goes on (because enemy DC goes up). So if you have a rival, and you don't focus on cha saves, your rival (for very little expenditure) can grab a cha save spell and have a better chance of you failing the save when you become at your day job. Your save may not change over 10 levels but that DC for the exact same effect certainly will.
====
So, I was thinking, what's the difference between an attack and a save. Why not have everything be an attack (4e) or everything be a save (easily doable). People like attacks and people like saves.
Why is there a Dex (reflex) save at all? Your armor class takes into consideration your Dexterity and armor is essentially a replacement for reflex. You use your armor to negate damage when you can't dodge a source of damage.
So there are two types of effects. Physical and Mental.
Physical effects should all be versus AC as this already takes into account your Dexterity or a replacement for dexterity. Have spells like Fireball deal half damage on a miss and work evasion in there and call it a day.
The same thing for Strength saves. The stronger you are the faster you will be. Dexterity is about coordination, Strength is about power (which, btw, your base speed should be modified by your strength score just like how long you can run is determined by your constitution and how quick you get to running is modifier by your dex). Moving in armor to block a blow or using a shield to deflect a blow takes strength.
You could make AC a save, but you would have the same problem as making saves disappear...
So... using 5e...
====
Attack Roll versus [AC: 10 (or Armor Bonus) + Str or Dex + Misc]
Con Save: as 5e
Int Save: as 5e
Wis Save: May add your cha mod or wis mod to Wis saves.
When used defensively, there is hardly a time when Wisdom and Charisma can't be considered a defense for the same effect. Your strong will power may come from your force of personality or your years of wisdom accumulating and allowing you to mentally push past an effect.
So, what we have with this is External versus Internal and a bit of consistency.
External effects will target your AC and some will have effects on a miss.
Internal effects will automatically hit, but you need to shrug them off in some way.
====
Example
Kevin McMaincharacterface is a 10th level rogue that wears light armor and has a 20 dex score (AC 12 + 5).
A fireball erupts next to Kevin, the mage's attack wasn't the best (total roll was a 13) so Kevin takes half damage on a miss. However, Kevin is a rogue and has Evasion. Kevin takes no damage on the miss as he is able to gaurd his face and other precious parts from the flame.
Joe is a fighter with an 18 AC. That fireball's blast didn't directly hit him, thanks to his shield, but he can feel the burn. Joe takes half damage from the fireball.
====
5e would still have the issue of "if you don't focus on a save, you get worse" issue and a fix to this would be to give half prof to non-proficient saves. At least there is some progression on thr players part.
TL;DR ... External effects versus Internal effects
All external effects (Str, Dex, AC) are attacks versus AC. Some effects may do half damage.
All internal effects (Con, Int, Wis, and Cha) are saving throws versus a DC.
Half-prof on saves (Con, Int, Wis) if not proficient.
AC: Armor Rating (or 10) + Str or Dex + Misc
Con Save: Con Mod + Prof
Int Save: Int Mod + Prof
Wis Save: Wis or Cha mod + Prof
Skill checks will be creature versus environment/situation and not creature versus creature (that's what AC and saves are for).
Barbarian: Armor (Special) and Con
Bard: Armor (Light, Shields) and Wis
Cleric: Armor and Wis
Druid: Int and Wis
Fighter: Armor and Con
Monk: Armor (Special) and Con
Paladin: Armor and Wis
Ranger: Armor and Con
Rogue: Armor (L, M, no shields) and Int
Sorcerer: Con and Wis
Warlock: Con and Int
Wizard: Int and Wis
I think a great system is close when you take each and bring them together. There is a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't care about my background thoughts :p (I won't judge you).
3e
Attacks versus AC, flat footed AC, and touch AC.
Saving throws versus fort (con), ref (dex), or will (wis)
The problem with attacks is that it got too fiddly and it wasn't clear why certain attacks targeted AC, Touch AC, or FF AC but not the others. The rules were a bit inconsistent at times.
Saving throws had the problem of focusing on three of the ability scores and causing the others to be dumpable.
4e
Attacks were against AC, Fort, Ref, and Will. This rubbed some people the wrong way as they liked the saving throw system of 3e. Fort (STR or Con), Ref (Dex or Int), and Will (Wis or Cha)
Saving Throws were roll a d20 and compare to DC 10... Very few modifiers... People weren't happy about this simplicstic approach.
Problem with attacks were that people like their saving throws. Attack rolls and saves are just "backwards" mechanics. Many people took issue with Int being tied to reflex but not seeing through illusions... It was less that Int could be used for ref and more that it became a physical defense but not a mental one.
The problem with saving throws... The DC was never based off the person who caused the effect. The hit was, but people were used to having their character cause the DC to go up. Many effects happened for at least 1 round and then a possibility of save ends but longer lasting debuffs just didn't happen as much.
5e
Attacks: All attacks versus AC.
Saving throws: All ability scores gain their own saving throws. Some are tied to skills and are used in ability checks to stop the creature from being affected by a spell or effect.
There really isn't a huge problem with attacks in theory. Sweet and simple but...
Saving throws have a huuuuge problem. Some saving throws weigh more than others and if you don't focus on a save, you actually get worse at making that save versus the same threat as time goes on (because enemy DC goes up). So if you have a rival, and you don't focus on cha saves, your rival (for very little expenditure) can grab a cha save spell and have a better chance of you failing the save when you become at your day job. Your save may not change over 10 levels but that DC for the exact same effect certainly will.
====
So, I was thinking, what's the difference between an attack and a save. Why not have everything be an attack (4e) or everything be a save (easily doable). People like attacks and people like saves.
Why is there a Dex (reflex) save at all? Your armor class takes into consideration your Dexterity and armor is essentially a replacement for reflex. You use your armor to negate damage when you can't dodge a source of damage.
So there are two types of effects. Physical and Mental.
Physical effects should all be versus AC as this already takes into account your Dexterity or a replacement for dexterity. Have spells like Fireball deal half damage on a miss and work evasion in there and call it a day.
The same thing for Strength saves. The stronger you are the faster you will be. Dexterity is about coordination, Strength is about power (which, btw, your base speed should be modified by your strength score just like how long you can run is determined by your constitution and how quick you get to running is modifier by your dex). Moving in armor to block a blow or using a shield to deflect a blow takes strength.
You could make AC a save, but you would have the same problem as making saves disappear...
So... using 5e...
====
Attack Roll versus [AC: 10 (or Armor Bonus) + Str or Dex + Misc]
Con Save: as 5e
Int Save: as 5e
Wis Save: May add your cha mod or wis mod to Wis saves.
When used defensively, there is hardly a time when Wisdom and Charisma can't be considered a defense for the same effect. Your strong will power may come from your force of personality or your years of wisdom accumulating and allowing you to mentally push past an effect.
So, what we have with this is External versus Internal and a bit of consistency.
External effects will target your AC and some will have effects on a miss.
Internal effects will automatically hit, but you need to shrug them off in some way.
====
Example
Kevin McMaincharacterface is a 10th level rogue that wears light armor and has a 20 dex score (AC 12 + 5).
A fireball erupts next to Kevin, the mage's attack wasn't the best (total roll was a 13) so Kevin takes half damage on a miss. However, Kevin is a rogue and has Evasion. Kevin takes no damage on the miss as he is able to gaurd his face and other precious parts from the flame.
Joe is a fighter with an 18 AC. That fireball's blast didn't directly hit him, thanks to his shield, but he can feel the burn. Joe takes half damage from the fireball.
====
5e would still have the issue of "if you don't focus on a save, you get worse" issue and a fix to this would be to give half prof to non-proficient saves. At least there is some progression on thr players part.
TL;DR ... External effects versus Internal effects
All external effects (Str, Dex, AC) are attacks versus AC. Some effects may do half damage.
All internal effects (Con, Int, Wis, and Cha) are saving throws versus a DC.
Half-prof on saves (Con, Int, Wis) if not proficient.
AC: Armor Rating (or 10) + Str or Dex + Misc
Con Save: Con Mod + Prof
Int Save: Int Mod + Prof
Wis Save: Wis or Cha mod + Prof
Skill checks will be creature versus environment/situation and not creature versus creature (that's what AC and saves are for).
Barbarian: Armor (Special) and Con
Bard: Armor (Light, Shields) and Wis
Cleric: Armor and Wis
Druid: Int and Wis
Fighter: Armor and Con
Monk: Armor (Special) and Con
Paladin: Armor and Wis
Ranger: Armor and Con
Rogue: Armor (L, M, no shields) and Int
Sorcerer: Con and Wis
Warlock: Con and Int
Wizard: Int and Wis