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miinstrel
2017-02-18, 11:28 AM
For the purposes of how many dragons there should potentially be in a world building project I'm working on... How much territory do dragons of the various age categories control? Like... a couple square miles for a Young? Entire regions for Ancient?

I tried googling and digging through the forums a bit but was not able to find anything relevant. Has this been discussed somewhere already?

hamishspence
2017-02-18, 11:37 AM
Probably depends heavily on the environment - a low-life environment such as a desert (arctic or hot) is likely to have to be very large to support a dragon, a life-heavy environment such as a jungle may be much smaller.

Darth Ultron
2017-02-18, 12:05 PM
I don't think you will find any sort of official answer in square feet or anything like that. You could just say a square mile per age category or something like that.

On the fluff side, dragons claim whatever land they want, often vast areas. Some dragons claim small areas, and some much larger.

miinstrel
2017-02-18, 12:05 PM
Assume standard biome distribution. Mostly flatland/plains and forests, some marshes, a little arctic, a few mountain ranges strewn throughout. No major deserts in this world.

Yeah, figured it'd be difficult to answer. Guess I should look up hunting grounds for major solo predators like tigers or t-rex and base it off that.

VoxRationis
2017-02-18, 12:08 PM
In a region rich enough to support it and other dragons or other large predators, I wouldn't imagine it would be more than a day's flight in radius; it'd be too hard for the dragon to adequately defend its territory. But a lot of places would require much larger amounts of territory to support a dragon.

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-18, 12:13 PM
I know I've seen a map somewhere outlining the territories of various dragons in the Forgotten realms...

Ah! Here it is. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20041201a)


D&D dragons don't need live prey to survive, remember they can quite happily make meals of ore and who knows whatever else. I'm not sure just how useful the map really is, but it and the article can help give you ideas for different ways to have dragons handle territories (if they claim and defend one at all, which some of them don't).

hamishspence
2017-02-18, 12:19 PM
That said, going by 4e's Draconomicon, many chromatic dragon types hate inorganic materials even if they can live off them.

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-18, 12:26 PM
I don't deny that dragons can have preference for meat, it did seem like in the 3.5 draconomicon that the ones with a strongest preference for minerals and things were the coppers, and possibly blues. (maybe because they both tend to prefer deserts?)

That's another interesting thing about that article for Faerun though, the first two dragons they discuss are white dragons, which are very prey driven creatures. A lot of emphasis is put on how they will allow certain things in their territories specifically because it gives them more prey options. (ignoring mining operations because once they are set up there will be lots of yummy draybeasts to eat for the time being). I'm not sure if the other dragons gone over also have their eating preferences discussed, but who says they must always hunt, when they can just terrorize a town into giving them livestock from time to time?

hamishspence
2017-02-18, 12:29 PM
I would guess, the older and smarter the dragon, the more likely it is to contrive means of feeding that aren't hunting.

Young dragons I would think are the most likely to hunt in a "conventional predator" way.

Quiver
2017-02-18, 12:48 PM
How much terrain does the forty foot long, flying, fire breathing lizard which may or may not have magic consider its domain?

As much as it god damn wants.

Okay, snark aside, serious question. Are dragons in your setting sapient? If so, the amount of terrain they "own" might be colored by personality more than anything else.

If they are the equivalent of wild animals, that changes it. Do your dragons maintain an abode like a cave or a nest which they'll return to to rest, or will they just hunker down in any safe place they can find?

cobaltstarfire
2017-02-18, 01:29 PM
Also, if the dragons are more animal-like, it is still relatively normal for animals to have some or even a lot of overlap in their territories, it really depends on how you want the dragons to be.

Absol197
2017-02-18, 02:08 PM
Okay, first off, they don't like the word "dragon," that's the name humans gave them. And secondly, they don't hold territory. They've got the land surrounding their people's four sacred places and that's...

Oh wait, sorry, those are the dragons in my world. In yours, it is likely completely different! Depending on the intelligence, demeanor, size, biology, dietary restrictions, and a whole host of different factors of your dragons.

So...tell us about your dragons! And then we can try to hash out how much territory they claim! Or if they even claim any!

Benthesquid
2017-02-18, 02:38 PM
My instinct is to say "All of it." Or, more practically, "All of it up until it runs into the territory of a dragon I'm not positive I could kill."

Winter_Wolf
2017-02-18, 02:47 PM
Dragons are like cats: "this is mine; that is mine; all this is mine. Except that bit; I don't want that bit. But all this is mine...."

Absol197
2017-02-18, 03:24 PM
Dragons are like cats: "this is mine; that is mine; all this is mine. Except that bit; I don't want that bit. But all this is mine...."

If nothing else comes out of this thread, this is probably the most accurate statement for the largest number of dragon interpretations.

Freed
2017-02-18, 03:24 PM
A normal dragon probably controls a few miles around its cave. However, it probably will claim that it owns any land not claimed by stronger dragon within a few hundred miles.

Jay R
2017-02-18, 04:33 PM
That's as meaningless a question as "How much territory does a human consider its domain?" Different dragons can be as different as peasants and emperors.

Whatever it can successfully defend, and that changes over time, based on their own power and who their current neighbors are.


"After all," said the Duchess vaguely, "there are certain things you can't get away from. Right and wrong, good conduct and moral rectitude, have certain well-defined limits."

"So, for the matter of that," replied Reginald, "has the Russian Empire. The trouble is that the limits are not always in the same place."

hamishspence
2017-02-18, 04:48 PM
4e had, as a starting point (Draconomicon) "within a day's flight of the lair" as the territorial range (poor hunting grounds need to be larger, hunting grounds densely populated with prey can be smaller).

Other factors can modify that, of course. But it's a good place to begin.

ArgentumRegio
2017-02-18, 05:27 PM
Roughly half a day's flight from the lair.

Edit to add : strictest control is of the space closest to the lair, but out to 'nearly half a flight-day' is what the dragon would consider their own territory, as it could conveniently hunt it and return home by day's end.

Traab
2017-02-18, 06:22 PM
Roughly half a day's flight from the lair.

Edit to add : strictest control is of the space closest to the lair, but out to 'nearly half a flight-day' is what the dragon would consider their own territory, as it could conveniently hunt it and return home by day's end.

Thats my outlook. He isnt going to want to spend days away from his lair hunting food. Lord knows who or what would sneak in while he is gone? And this would make for a good description of territory. Each rank of dragon has its fly speed and you can estimate its territory range that way.

Draconium
2017-02-18, 09:42 PM
How much territory do dragons of the various age categories control?

Well, to put it simply...

http://img.memecdn.com/lionking-and-sheldon_fb_2734637.jpg


Dragons are like cats: "this is mine; that is mine; all this is mine. Except that bit; I don't want that bit. But all this is mine...."

Also, +1 to this.


How much terrain does the forty foot long, flying, fire breathing lizard which may or may not have magic consider its domain?

As much as it god damn wants.

... Can I sig this?

Xuc Xac
2017-02-18, 11:29 PM
I don't think you will find any sort of official answer in square feet or anything like that. You could just say a square mile per age category or something like that.


That is ridiculously small. That's more appropriate for a grey squirrel. A grey wolf has a territory of hundreds of square miles. Even a small dragon should cover more than that.

Jay R
2017-02-18, 11:51 PM
What do you mean? An African or European dragon?

Lord Raziere
2017-02-18, 11:57 PM
Dragon: Uh the appropriate term is Kingdom, mere mortal? Much like your fake kings that you put little golden hats on and proclaim they are your king to give yourselves an illusion of having control over your fate by making them your representative to my true rule? Obviously. My domain is you and everyone that I see and everyone that sees me.

Beneath
2017-02-19, 03:48 AM
Agreed with "as much as it wants" and the cat thing

Though also, the territory a dragon is likely to consider its domain and the territory the dragon can project force into conveniently enough to actually enforce such a claim as a matter of course could differ rather substantially, given the greed and arrogance that are stereotypical dragon traits. So it's possible an area could be within some dragon's claimed territory with nobody there knowing it until something happens that the dragon perceives as actually infringing on its claim enough to be worth the inconvenience of flying out (like a rival dragon being brought into the area); a dragon's territory is less "the land it uses" and more "any place it is likely tocould conceivably visit without being a guest of another dragonsomeone the dragon respects".

There's an adventure seed. A city on the fringes of some dragon's domain has finally caught its attention (or possibly is right next to something that caught the dragon's attention), and now it shows up demanding a hundred years of back tribute.

Quiver
2017-02-19, 08:59 AM
... Can I sig this?

Hah, feel free to. :smallbiggrin:

Forum Explorer
2017-02-19, 02:31 PM
A lot? A dragon's territory isn't really determined by food. Food is easy, most can just create it with magic if need be. Or eat pretty much anything. So basically it's everything that the dragon can make obey them until they hit another dragon, or something else big and nasty enough to actually be able to resist the dragon. So it's likely to come out to the size of a kingdom or two.

2D8HP
2017-02-19, 03:39 PM
What do you mean? An African or European dragon?


(You have to know these things when your a King)


Mynd you, Dragøn bites Kan be pretti nasti!

Frozen_Feet
2017-02-19, 03:55 PM
It starts with a radius of half-day's flight and adjust based on abundance of resources and other alpha monsters.

Few other alphas, few resources? Expand untill it can cover the dragon's needs (stealable treasure, edible dwarves, virgin sacrifices) or you hit the border of another alpha's territory.

Lots of other alphas, lots of resources? Shrink to the smallest area which a) can be defended and b) covers the dragon's needs.

Lots of other alphas, few resources? A small territory with a foraging range overlapping with other alphas. May not have permanent lair.

Few alphas, lots of resources? Become god-king of puny mortals, found an empire.

LibraryOgre
2017-02-20, 12:11 PM
Rule of thumb: Figure out how far the dragon can fly in one day... beyond that, it gets difficult to maintain territory. Anything within half a day is its core territory; it can fly out and fly home.

You might have two dragons closer, but they'll be compatible. You might have two dragons with overlapping "expanded areas", but you'll have very few dragons with overlapping cores, or with their cores covered in someone else's expanded.

Xuc Xac
2017-02-20, 01:30 PM
Rule of thumb: Figure out how far the dragon can fly in one day... beyond that, it gets difficult to maintain territory. Anything within half a day is its core territory; it can fly out and fly home.

Not at all. Grey wolves in Canada and Alaska have territories of a thousand square miles. How far do you think a grey wolf can travel in a day? They have big territories because prey is scarce so they have to keep patrolling their territory. Dragons don't work 9 to 5 and don't have to go back to their nest every night. Just because you're more than a day's travel away from the dragon, that doesn't mean you can set up shop. If you plan to stay more than a day, the dragon will have time to reach you.

A dragon might sleep on its hoard for months at a time then go on a tour of its territory to gorge itself on food before going back to sleep a few more seasons to digest their food and give prey species a chance to repopulate.

LibraryOgre
2017-02-20, 01:57 PM
And a wolf pack generally doesn't build lairs quite on the scale that a dragon does; the territory isn't the only place it can operate, but it's home range, and the rule of thumb provides a maximum density for dragons, not a minimum.

Pugwampy
2017-02-20, 02:07 PM
Are dragons territorial beyond their cave full of treasure ? Most of the time they seem to be hiding and you have to dig em out .

In DND land , even if they are huge and mighty and ancient , they are not on top of the food chain . We have Gods , Cuthulu , Tarrasques and of course the most dangerous creature of all .....filthy human scumbags .

If a dragon bothers a King or Kingdom , there are plenty of lvl 18 adventurers out there to exterminate it.

Frozen_Feet
2017-02-20, 04:07 PM
Wolves make a poor comparison point, because wolves are not obsessive hoarders. Dragons are, and the want to take care of their treasure like it was a nest full of eggs. Their lair might actually double as a nest full of eggs. That's why dragons will stick close to their lair if at all possible. Again, if resources are scarce or there's nothing much to threaten a dragon, territories expand. Ditto of there's too much competition to actually build a lair.

hamishspence
2017-02-20, 04:17 PM
A good example of "scarce resources" might be the polar environment that supports white dragons. Which might be why the Wyrms of the North article shows one of the white dragons as having a simply huge range, stretching most of the way down the Sword Coast.

Esprit15
2017-02-20, 04:37 PM
As much as it can get away with/defend.

veti
2017-02-20, 04:38 PM
What do your dragons eat?

If they're conventional apex predators, then their "range" has to be big enough to sustainably support them and their family. I'd also guess that a dragon can't reasonably hunt anything much smaller than a goat - even if it could catch a lemming (or whatever), it would expend more energy on catching it than the dragon would recoup from the meal.

According to the most convincing sources I can find online, you can find around 30-40 white-tailed deer per km2 of good hunting forest. (In open country, which would obviously be a lot easier for the dragon to hunt in, the figure is a lot less - more like 4-5 deer/km2.) Young deer take over a year to mature, and hinds usually bear around one calf per year. So I reckon you can take about 25-30% of the population per year.

So, if the dragon is lucky enough to have a territory of untamed forest rich in prey, it could take up to around 10 deer per year per km2. If it eats one every two days, then it could survive on as little as 18 km2, which is a radius of less than 3 km. (That's just for itself, mind, not its family). Note, that assumes there's no other predators (reasonable, as it would see them off), the deer have nowhere else to go (less plausible), nothing but ideal hunting forest (possible), and definitely no humans or other intelligent life within striking range.

That's an unstable lifestyle for the dragon. If anything happens to upset its fragile ecosystem - say, a cold winter means the deer don't breed as fast - the dragon will starve unless it can go further afield. To give it some security, I would at least triple that range. Then, make allowances for differences in terrain, incursions by other predators (including other dragons, and humanoids), and a dragon's natural greed. To live comfortably, the total range is more likely to be at least 10x these figures.

Of course, a fire-breathing dragon might not be entirely at home living in a forest. Out on the plains, the population density of viable prey would be much lower. (Until some idiots start trying to farm cows or something, of course.) But even so, a plains- or mountain-dwelling dragon should be able to survive with a range of not much more than 25-30 km radius. (Plus a bit if it has young, obviously.)

halfeye
2017-02-20, 05:21 PM
Grey wolves in Canada and Alaska have territories of a thousand square miles.

That sounds huge, but it's not really, it's ten miles by a hundred, twenty by fifty, or 33.3 miles square, aka a radius of about twenty miles (won't be exactly square, won't be exactly circular).

miinstrel
2017-02-20, 05:49 PM
Wow this has become quite the discussion! Thanks everyone for the input so far, great points from several of you.

Dragons are traditional D&D style with a couple weird caveats:
- there was an event that left all existing dragons flightless
- the same event transformed several primitive champions (giants, orcs, etc.) into dragons that CAN fly. they attacked and preyed upon the older dragons for a time. this all happened about 120 years ago.
so currently there are a larger number of adult-old dragons, and a smaller number of old+ dragons that can't fly being hunted by the younger ones.

- the same event left the world's spellcasters unable to cast anything above 3rd level. that's all about to change with IC events, but still that means just over a century of no humans really being able to challenge a dragon (besides the other dragons hunting them down). so dragon tribute may play a prominent role in a city's motivations right now.

so the larger dragons, unable to roam like they used to, are probably in more survival mode than they may otherwise be, likely not asserting as much influence on human settlements that are not immediately within their sphere of control.
the younger dragons may or may not feel over confident in their new position as apex predator.

Aeson
2017-02-20, 06:44 PM
Wolves make a poor comparison point, because wolves are not obsessive hoarders. Dragons are, and the want to take care of their treasure like it was a nest full of eggs.
Now, now, don't you know that the hoard is a key feature of the dragon's hunting strategy? Greedy fools Adventurers are a key part of a dragon's diet, and what better way to ensure a steady supply of greedy fools adventurers than (rumors of) a massive pile of treasure? For similar reasons, dragons cultivate a reputation for a taste for princesses and maidens - questing knights, after all, are another key part of a dragon's diet, and if there is one thing that the stereotypical questing knight simply cannot resist, it is a damsel in distress.

The rumors of a dragon's wrath over the loss of even the smallest portion of its hoard is largely an attempt to limit the number and frequency of greedy fools adventurers (it's no good for the prey supply to deliver itself to the lair fast enough for the prey population to die off or, worse yet, faster than even the most ravenous dragon can feed, after all), though there is an element of truth to it, as if the dragon loses its hoard, it'll have to spend effort collecting more bait, and everyone knows that new money and treasure is worse than old money and treasure - after all, why else would all the best swords be centuries- or even millennia-old relics of bygone empires? Plus, all the best modern treasures come from the dwarves, and dwarves taste simply awful due to all that nasty mushroom alcohol they drink. It's good for the occasional burglar with a magic ring to see the hoard and successfully get away with stealing a golden cup or something like that as it gives credibility to and keeps alive the rumors of your vast wealth, helping to ensure that the supply of greedy fools adventurers doesn't dry up, but you simply cannot allow too much of that to go on without doing something to shut it down or you'll end up without anything to lure the food into the lair.

miinstrel
2017-02-20, 07:20 PM
Now, now, don't you know that the hoard is a key feature of the dragon's hunting strategy? Greedy fools Adventurers are a key part of a dragon's diet, and what better way to ensure a steady supply of greedy fools adventurers than (rumors of) a massive pile of treasure? For similar reasons, dragons cultivate a reputation for a taste for princesses and maidens - questing knights, after all, are another key part of a dragon's diet, and if there is one thing that the stereotypical questing knight simply cannot resist, it is a damsel in distress.

The rumors of a dragon's wrath over the loss of even the smallest portion of its hoard is largely an attempt to limit the number and frequency of greedy fools adventurers (it's no good for the prey supply to deliver itself to the lair fast enough for the prey population to die off or, worse yet, faster than even the most ravenous dragon can feed, after all), though there is an element of truth to it, as if the dragon loses its hoard, it'll have to spend effort collecting more bait, and everyone knows that new money and treasure is worse than old money and treasure - after all, why else would all the best swords be centuries- or even millennia-old relics of bygone empires? Plus, all the best modern treasures come from the dwarves, and dwarves taste simply awful due to all that nasty mushroom alcohol they drink. It's good for the occasional burglar with a magic ring to see the hoard and successfully get away with stealing a golden cup or something like that as it gives credibility to and keeps alive the rumors of your vast wealth, helping to ensure that the supply of greedy fools adventurers doesn't dry up, but you simply cannot allow too much of that to go on without doing something to shut it down or you'll end up without anything to lure the food into the lair.

This. All of this.

ArgentumRegio
2017-02-22, 12:37 AM
Not at all. Grey wolves in Canada and Alaska have territories of a thousand square miles. How far do you think a grey wolf can travel in a day?

Wolves are a poor choice of example for comparison. They are pack hunters, without 'treasure hoard' to guard, also, low INTELLIGENCE.

Dragons are smarter, have gold so need to be 'home to guard it' and are very very seldom in a state 'other than loner' so there is no one to guard the gold, nor the eggs.

Dragons are not one to go camping when there is serious loot to guard. Remember, greed is a BIG factor in dragon motivations.

Now, how far can a dragon fly in half a day? Turns out that it is pretty darned far (especially if you compare it to the foot travel of a wolf). See your D&D version for specifics on long range travel for flying creatures. According to this thread

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/70541/how-fast-can-a-dragon-fly

it would seem to be somewhere around 24 to 72 mile radius ... so that'd be something in the range of 1800 sq mile to 16,286 sq mile in size for a territory... I'm pretty sure ONE dragon could find food in that space, and loot to acquire.

Hawkstar
2017-02-22, 02:11 AM
I like to think: "Just imagine if Yertle the Turtle could fly"

Gizmogidget
2017-02-24, 12:30 AM
It depends on a variety of factors, including what the dragon is like, how much food it needs, what the territory is like, and how far it can travel.

Two examples, a dragon with a magic item that produces large quantities of food, and a magic item that allows the creature to travel more distance quickly whether it be speed-enhancing or teleportation.

The first dragon likely won't need to expand their territory to search for food if they have a limitless supply, and the second will be able to enforce its rule over a much larger area than other dragons.

But in my honest opinion most dragons of the evil variety consider their domain to be well, everywhere. Where it actually is though, up to you.

My two cents on the issue is that a dragons true domain, is as far as it can reach before encountering a threat powerful enough to stop it from continually expanding its territory.

Mai
2017-02-24, 04:09 PM
Type could also be a factor. Of I recall some dragons can havecommunities of sorts. If I am remembering right,this is more common inmetalic dragons. That said while a commity for us could just be a neighborhood, adult dragons can typically fly well over 100ft per round of I recall, and a round is 6 seconds. So a community of dragons could be hugely distributed in a region and still be considered a comunity because in terms of how far their lairs are... At that speed, not too far to them? But for us it could be quite a ways. So that may or may not be a factor.

And even flightless dragons can use magic right? And if so... There are spells for flight and speed. But let's disregard that.

Your world kind of kills most estimates I could come I p with. Honestly older dragons are probably dead. Even in human form of I recall they occassionally need to hunt as a dragon to sate their needs... And with no fight that might be nearing impossible.

Gizmogidget
2017-02-25, 01:54 AM
A dragon's territory should be immense, because as others have said a thousand square miles isn't all that big.

Take the United Kingdom for example, if a dragon had the territory of a grey wolf what percent of the UK would that dragon occupy?

A little over one percent, or a tiny sliver.

Depending on setting a dragon amounts to an inhuman monster, something that is so powerful it's very existence threatens nations, a dragon's territory can't be defined in some neat little formula, because a dragon will continue to exert it's will as far as it can. Ordinary men have built massive empires in our world, so a dragon should be doing the same on a near regular basis.

sktarq
2017-02-25, 11:36 AM
I would dragons have a varying type of territorial claim the farther your get from their lair.

A region of total dominance that basically answers to them and is exclusionary to them as significant players.

Then a region where they feel they have sole draconic raiding rights, perhaps the occasional tributary, etc. It is more relaxed out here and as long as there is not a power centre that could be an active threat to the dragon they are usually fine with it. But woe betide if you are another dragon and move to set up shop or the like.

Finally there is an outer band of territory that it visits from time to time and declares it's own. Not because it actively has influence here but because it is about status and pride. Supplicant dragons may live in this region depending of type. It is the equivalent of old (Roman Era) germanic settlements showing off how tough they were by having large bands of unsettled wilderness around their homes. It can also be thought of as a type of treasure- land deed as value type - just not cartable.

As for sizes
In a 12 age category scale a 1km radius per category for the inner one seems a good baseline.

Second region will be most dependent of surroundings. How empty, how many significant power players etc. But a half day radius would probably be a near max.

Third is totally dependent of carrying capacity of the land to mount challengers, the personality of the dragon etc. But as dragons are basically set up as homebodies I woulnd't think more than 2 days radius is all that common but exceptional ones would exist.


Also while the ancients and Wyrms should have territories that are huge most dragons are not those ancients. And will have substancially smaller territories. I usually think of dragon society and territorial distribution as strongly weighted toward the top.

For quick easy version in 5e, and adult would control a historic british county. An ancient something from like all of Wales or Connecticut in the states.

lightningcat
2017-02-25, 05:09 PM
I break down dragon territories into several descriptive areas. The most important is the Home; which is about the size of Kingmaker style hex. This holds the dragon's lair, and will be defended at almost any cost. Few if any other intelligent creatures will be in this area, unless they are minions for the dragon. Beyond this is the dragon's domain; which is the dragon will fight over and acts as his primary hunting grounds. There may be small settlements of other races, depending on the dragon's personality, but it is mostly empty. The size of this varies, but assume a half day flight is the smallest, and two days flight at the largest. Other dragons will only enter into this area if they have dealings with the dragon. Territory is the largest area, this is basically wherever the dragon wants to go and can do so relatively unopposed. For some older and more powerful dragons, this may cover an entire continent, while others may not stretch any further then their domain. This area is part hunting ground, part political influence, and part martial dominance.

SethoMarkus
2017-02-25, 06:22 PM
How did we come to using wolves as a comparison point rather than eagles? I mean, given the additional information from the OP that these dragons are flightless does make wolves a slightly closer comparison (though I would still go for a non-pack predator), but come on! Flying makes a huge difference in determining territory!

Jay R
2017-02-25, 06:40 PM
Right this minute? Just that little patch you're standing on.

miinstrel
2017-02-25, 07:25 PM
There are significantly more dragons WITH flight, than without, so both discussions are valid imo.

A bear may be a more apt comparison since they also keep a den

Really appreciate all the thoughts bouncing around on here.

ArgentumRegio
2017-02-26, 11:59 AM
It is all about the dragon hoard, people.

Dragons are intelligent. Not to poo-poo the canines but wolves are NOT at that level of intelligence, nor bears nor eagles. More, none of these candidate 'similar territory' creatures have treasure to guard.

Wolves have a den where the cubs are, but these are pack animals and they leave guards with the pups so to compare them is not a good match. The hunting pack of wolves can overnight anywhere; their 'treasure' (the pups) is guarded and looked after well.

Bears are a poor pick as they are like wolves, landbound creatures that cannot 'move as the crow flies' but must accomodate terrain factors that aerial creatures ignore. More the bear does not have a lair it needs to return to; females with cubs generally take the cubs with them on forage, else just remain in the lair with the cubs living off their winter fat until the cubs are ready to travel with the parent on forage. Males do not help with raising cubs, in fact are hostile to them, so the 'treasure hoard' has to travel with the dragon-surrogate here and thus not a good comparison.

Eagles that have a nest they will return to every night or really more often if nesting... the young need food and tending after all, and more they will be almost 100% of them, operating in pairs with a mate (in rare instances a mate will be killed but such nests have a markedly lower chance of success). Eagles being flying creatures are perhaps the best candidate for similar territory here because of the young in the nest factor simulating a dragon's desire to look after the treasure hoard.

Half a day's flight out allows the creature to fly back home for the rest it will need; laying on top of the hoard where it is safe and the hoard's safety need not worry the dragon. This is a HUGE area... just to get an idea of the radius, you really need to go hike 50 to 72 miles sometime... it will take you days. THAT is the radius we are talking about here. And a dragon can overflight any point in that radius in any given day (but you can only guess if it will fly over any given point and this unpredictability makes hunting good, especially near the outer edge of the radius where it is least likely to be seen - if you bag prey along the way you might not want to fly the whole patrol but rather get back to guarding the hoard).

Yes, sometimes adventurers can find a hoard unattended, this is not the norm however as such powerful predators with a view from above and the power of flight is not often long in their hunt for prey (on the occasion when the meal does not come to them).

Flickerdart
2017-02-26, 06:59 PM
Consider these:

Minions
Dragons have magic, and magic can create or enslave servants and guards. The dragon can also dominate savage races such as kobolds or orcs through physical prowess. These guys can take care of hunting when the dragon is feeling lazy, guard the lair when it is gone, and be deployed throughout its territory to send signals of delicious adventurers or threats. Thus, the greater a dragon's magic, reputation, and power, the more territory it can control.

Family
Dragons have young, and possibly also mates (whether or not your dragons mate for life is up to you). Once the eggs hatch, the youngsters will start ranging out from the nest, helping the elder dragon maintain its territory. The older they are, the further they can roam, and once they are powerful enough, they can begin setting up proto-hoards of their own throughout their parent's territory. Once they are old enough to guard their hoard themselves, they may move it far away (or challenge the parent for dominance of the master hoard).

Neighbours
Consider for a moment the model hunter-gatherer tribe. They have a core area they have settled, and then a much larger area where they hunt and gather. This larger area frequently overlaps with other tribes that also hunt and gather there, but their hunting parties are unlikely to ever meet, and will never bother to do more than drive off the enemy when they do meet. The modern idea of "our land ends and your land starts at this line" would be nonsense to these people. Dragons are much the same - their core "if you come here, you are a threat" territory is much smaller than their hunting grounds.

Stan
2017-02-26, 10:14 PM
So, if the dragon is lucky enough to have a territory of untamed forest rich in prey, it could take up to around 10 deer per year per km2. If it eats one every two days, then it could survive on as little as 18 km2, which is a radius of less than 3 km

Based purely food, this sounds reasonable. A tiger (large in D&D as is a young dragon, at least in 5e) has a range from as small as 4 square miles to > 100 square miles depending on how much lives there. Flying creatures tend to use more energy. But dragons seem almost cold blooded in they spend lots of time doing nothing - so maybe more, maybe less than a normal creature of the same size. Let's say an average of a 4 mile radius for young dragons - this is consistent with Veti as the 3 km was the min. In D&D, size category increases have a big difference in mass. So double the radius (4x area) for each size increase from there: 8 for adult, 16 for ancient.

That's just based on food - antisocial intelligent creatures would push further out where they can - half day's flight mentioned above seems reasonable. This also assumes uncivilized area as civilized areas have chased away all the game and try to hunt down beasts that eat livestock. The encroachment of humanity almost everywhere has probably made dragons extra irritable.