Trouble with (low level) druids.

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So heres something odd. Druids. The class you cant screw up. The class that looks at the wizard and says "keep your stupid versatility, I am a bear riding a bear summoning bears." The go to one man party. Probably the most suggested class ever.

"I have a new player. We are level 7 and need a healer and a tank, what should they play?" "Druid"

"Help, my character just died. We are level 12 and we are always outnumbered in combat!" "Druid"

"Im new and I dont really understand all the classes. Do you have any-" "Druid"

"I want a powerful summ-" "(Planer Shepherd/Greenbound) Druid"

"I-" "Druid"

But heres the issue.

I have a player. New to 3.5e. And she wanted to play a druid. FANTASTIC. Thats one player I never have to worry about, right? Battle field control, healing, an animal companion, and later on, wildshape.

Well shes level 4, and kinda a drag on the team right now. And I cant figure out why. Lots of outside spaces but she cant seem to get a good position to entangle. Without wildshape, shes kinda useless in combat at the moment. She never seems to have quite the right spells prepared, no matter what I as the DM do. She rides her companion and is using it well, but its just... not very effective as a tactic.

And the really stupid thing? I dont think I would play it any differently. Shes using a handbook, taking calculated risks, trying to use her spells to help the team most. And yet her animal companion gets hit a lot, she doesnt have many spells per day, she constantly runs the risk of trapping her own team, its just a mess.

Im sure I have seen druids played better than this at low levels but... I cant remember when. Or how.

So, playgound. What SHOULD a pre wildshape druid be doing? What spells are the best to snag. What items and feats? What strategies? Because Im stumped and worried shes beginning to not enjoy herself.

[Jack_Simth]

Hi all

So heres something odd. Druids. The class you cant screw up. The class that looks at the wizard and says "keep your stupid versatility, I am a bear riding a bear summoning bears." The go to one man party. Probably the most suggested class ever.

"I have a new player. We are level 7 and need a healer and a tank, what should they play?" "Druid"

"Help, my character just died. We are level 12 and we are always outnumbered in combat!" "Druid"

"Im new and I dont really understand all the classes. Do you have any-" "Druid"

"I want a powerful summ-" "(Planer Shepherd/Greenbound) Druid"

"I-" "Druid"

But heres the issue.

I have a player. New to 3.5e. And she wanted to play a druid. FANTASTIC. Thats one player I never have to worry about, right? Battle field control, healing, an animal companion, and later on, wildshape.

Well shes level 4, and kinda a drag on the team right now. And I cant figure out why. Lots of outside spaces but she cant seem to get a good position to entangle. Without wildshape, shes kinda useless in combat at the moment. She never seems to have quite the right spells prepared, no matter what I as the DM do. She rides her companion and is using it well, but its just... not very effective as a tactic.

And the really stupid thing? I dont think I would play it any differently. Shes using a handbook, taking calculated risks, trying to use her spells to help the team most. And yet her animal companion gets hit a lot, she doesnt have many spells per day, she constantly runs the risk of trapping her own team, its just a mess.

Im sure I have seen druids played better than this at low levels but... I cant remember when. Or how.

So, playgound. What SHOULD a pre wildshape druid be doing? What spells are the best to snag. What items and feats? What strategies? Because Im stumped and worried shes beginning to not enjoy herself.
Try switching out her dice (most manufacturers don't actually pay much attention to the balance of the dice, and it's common for them to be accidentally weighted towards some numbers rather than others), and getting her some basic barding for the animal companion. Masterwork studded leather has no ACP (so no proficiency required) and adds +3 to the animal's AC.

Better use of Share Spells would help. She's riding it, so she's always within five feet. Barkskin is handy.

Perhaps try a different companion. 4th level is when the first set of alternates come up - a leopard or an Ape might do better than the... I'm guessing wolf? ... in combat.

[Eldariel]

Depends on the sources. Cooperate with the party though. Entangle is great if the party is loaded with ranged weapons pretty much at any given position. Other useful stuff:
- Summon Nature's Ally. That spontaneous spell. You can use those to various ends, e.g. to flank (you can use SNAII to summon 1d3 things), aid another, block movement, etc.
- Wall of Smoke [Spell Compendium]. Great debuff! Nauseation is an incredibly powerful effect. Enemies can only move. Combine with Entangle and they can't do whole helluva lot while you pepper them dead.
- Impeding Stones [Cityscape]. Basically City-version of Entangle for when you are in a more urban settings.

Level 2
- Blinding Spittle [Spell Compendium]. No save, just a touch attack (at -4) to blind a target. Pretty incredible.
- Kelpstrand [Spell Compendium]. Shoot strands that grapple enemies to ground. Works incredibly well vs. smaller things in particular, but the check is Caster Level + Wisdom so it's good otherwise as well.
- Alicorn Lance [Silver Marches Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020719a)]. Shoot Faerie Fire effects at people for decent Force damage on a turn basis as a free action. One of the better damage spells.
- Soften Earth and Stone [Core]. Reasonable control spell; great if the soil is such that this spell functions.


You can also use stuff like Splinterbolt, Produce Flame and company to do minor damage, or just attack with ranged weapons (Bows, Slings, whatever) in the downtime. The primary contribution of a Druid is to throw around control-spells and summoned bodies where needed. Thanks to the spontaneous Summons, she always has a reasonable option at hands. And yeah, definitely get Bardings for the animal companion; they have naturally low AC but armor helps a lot. And coordinate with the party. I do hope you're using Eggynack's incredible guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) on everything Druids.

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Im new and I dont really understand all the classes. Do you have any-" "Druid"
Dear god is that terrible advice; I'd say that Druids are the most complicated class in the game, with the possible exception of artificer. In one class, you've got full casting from a huge and varied list, you've got all the confusion of shapeshifting, a summoning focus (requiring you to know and run multiple different creatures in combat) and an entire secondary character to run at the same time, but with weird handle animal rules? Eugh.

Some of the problem might just be that low-level casters can struggle. What kind of build does she have in terms of stats, feats, etc?

[Albions_Angel]

Thats certainly the guide I suggested to her, though she may be using the older guide from (I think) minmax boards.

Shes already swapped out the wolf. We sat down and talked through all the options, their pros and cons, etc. She went for the Dire Bat (which isnt terrible) and I am ruling that when shes riding, she gets higher ground even if its not flying.

I believe it does have barding, and im kinda allowing her to have some free riding feats (and apply them to flying mounts) because they arnt all that powerful in the grand scheme of things. She now has access to more or less at will bull strength thanks to the barbarian buying a semi-party wand for her to carry (the wand is for him, but he wont quibble over the odd poke here or there).

Ill try and get her on summoning. She is kinda scared of it because she doesnt like a lot of book keeping. I suggested she just pic 2 animals from the list and write up cards for them and only ever summon them for now, but so far no luck. That said, shes seeing how awesome summon undead is thanks to our new Dread Necro, so who knows.

That web enhancement spell looks good. Her favorite when shes not using her +1 lance (hey, a bat can charge) is flame blade(???) which isnt the one that makes your weapon covered in fire, its the one that produces a blade from her hand. Ive never seen it before, but hey, it didnt seem overpowered and if shes using that, shes already in trouble, ill over look it if its homebrew.

The party is, oddly, very range averse. Maybe I need to start through more ranged enemies at them myself, but they tend to close and smack things a lot. Which kinda makes control difficult. To her (and the party's) credit, they have talked about delaying until she has her turn. Problem is, there is only so much I can do and she has next to no dex. Most of the enemies they face roll higher initiative than her, and I cant just hold the bad guys back while they wait for the party to get things in order.

Im also sorta scared that going into the underdark is really gunna hurt her. They might be there for a while. They are about to hit 5th so wildshape comes online (I swear, every time I look at druid, wildshape gets one level further away!), but she still only has 1 of them a day. And theres only so much of the underdark I can populate with tree roots and mushrooms.

I dont remember druids being this hamstrung at early levels. But then the only pure druid I ever played was a shapeshift and fast heal variant so I was a bruiser wrecking face from level 1. Fell behind later but the campaign was short.

[eggynack]

What's her spell list look like? That's rather central to power, especially if the animal companion is a relatively combat weak bat. Things can be a bit tricky at 4th, because core 2nd level spell options for druids are a bit on the weak side. Second level spells from other sources are excellent, but a newer player would be more likely to tend towards core stuff, I'd expect. Third level core spells are excellent though, so the problem may resolve itself in time.

[Albions_Angel]

Dear god is that terrible advice; I'd say that Druids are the most complicated class in the game, with the possible exception of artificer. In one class, you've got full casting from a huge and varied list, you've got all the confusion of shapeshifting, a summoning focus (requiring you to know and run multiple different creatures in combat) and an entire secondary character to run at the same time, but with weird handle animal rules? Eugh.

Some of the problem might just be that low-level casters can struggle. What kind of build does she have in terms of stats, feats, etc?

And yet its advice I have seen here multiple times. Sometimes I think the board can get a little ahead of itself, and either forgets that book keeping is hard at first (many seasoned players have files and files of premade sheets, character concepts, animal companions, plots, back stories, etc so book keeping is already done) and/or forgets that there are levels between 1 and 20 (my constant argument is that while versatile and powerful, the wizard still has to make it to levels where it can use teleport, contingency and stop time, while the barbarian is pretty handy at killing low level wizards out of the gate!). That said, everyone here that gives advice typically knows what they are talking about to a greater or lesser degree.

Stats she has are 6 str, 12 con, 12 dex, 14 int, 17 wis and 10 cha (I think). Give or take. Feats at the moment are companion spell bond (1st), Dodge (modified in my game, but getting retrained at level 5 anyway for Natural Spell)(3rd) and then Mounted Combat and Rideby/Flyby Attack (the feat) as bonuses because they arnt that broken and she needs it.

[Albions_Angel]

What's her spell list look like? That's rather central to power, especially if the animal companion is a relatively combat weak bat. Things can be a bit tricky at 4th, because core 2nd level spell options for druids are a bit on the weak side. Second level spells from other sources are excellent, but a newer player would be more likely to tend towards core stuff, I'd expect. Third level core spells are excellent though, so the problem may resolve itself in time.

She runs with usually 2 entangles and then some other spell, typically produce flame. For level 2s, its usually one each of Flame Blade and Flaming Sphere, but occasionally something changes here. If the party has requests, she will take it. She has a level 1 pearl of power.

[Eldariel]

The lack of Augment Summoning is quite the pity - Druid actually gets spontaneous Summons so those are kind of a big deal. Far as summons to use, just give her one per level. On these levels that's perfectly sufficient. Hippogriff on level 2, Wolf on level 1. Others are useful but those are usually good enough. Just print full stats for them (with or without Augment Summoning depending on if her feats get retrained). You can just print the SRD stat blocks; that's very little effort provided somebody owns a printer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mmm. Yeah, low-level spellcaster problems, basically-- her stats aren't really great for physical stuff, meaning you're relying on spells that aren't really encounter-smashing yet. (I guess you could maybe retrain Companion Spellbound into Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery or something?)

[eggynack]

She runs with usually 2 entangles and then some other spell, typically produce flame. For level 2s, its usually one each of Flame Blade and Flaming Sphere, but occasionally something changes here. If the party has requests, she will take it. She has a level 1 pearl of power.
Shouldn't she have four 1st's and three 2nd's at fourth level? Those should help. Beyond that, she should maybe not have flame blade or flaming sphere. Toss those out for, say, blinding spittle and kelpstrand, as Eldariel recommended, and there should be an immediate improvement. It seems like she's doing some kinda weird flame druid thing, but most of those spells aren't that great. Also, why companion spellbond? If she's riding the companion around all the time (which really isn't my preferred strategy, so it might be worth adapting that too if you really want to wring out power here), one big advantage to that is that the companion is close by. Maybe swap that for natural bond or something. And don't underestimate 0th's. Some of those can be nifty. Cure minor especially allows for low cost stabilization, and create water and detect magic offer solid utility.

But, yeah, simply changing those two spells could do a whole lot. The ones mentioned are a lot less finicky than entangle is. Adding really solid spells from wisdom would obviously help a lot too if it's not happening already, but I suspect it is happening, so just making those spells already in use solid would be the way to go. Book keeping doesn't necessarily have to be a huge deal here. It'd be pretty easy to just say to her, "Hey, hippogriffs make for pretty good things to summon." It's obviously better to know the full catalog of options and know exactly where and when to use them, but simply converting spells into hippogriffs is more than sufficient in a lot of cases. Level after that is dire wolf, incidentally, or maybe a lion, and first level is normal wolf. And if she's not upgrading her summoning, she can use the book directly instead of constructing whole character sheets. Same applies next level, when she gets wild shape. She could get a full list of all medium animals within the HD limits and pick and choose from that as needed, or she could just be a desmodu hunting bat or fleshraker and move on with her life. You're always going to need to do some more book keeping, but you don't always have to make it into a full time job.

[Albions_Angel]

You are right, she does have additional spells. I cant remember what she runs tbh. Its been about 2 weeks since our last session.

She does seem to carry a LOT of entangles for someone who struggles to use them. Ill have a think and see what I can come up with as suggestions for her.

As for summons, Ill take a look at printing some stat blocks.

She does keep her 0th stocked, mostly with at least one being create water and one being purify. Useful to have.

She wanted companion spell bond because she plans to stop riding when she can wildshape. Its why I gave her the ride feats for free. With the retraining of her other feat, that still leaves 6 for either extra wildshape or augment summons.

[eggynack]

She does seem to carry a LOT of entangles for someone who struggles to use them. Ill have a think and see what I can come up with as suggestions for her.
Doesn't necessarily have to stop doing that, though tossing in an impeding stones or wall of smoke instead of one could help, variety style. The main focus should be the second level spells, I think. They seem further from "correct", and that's extra problematic cause they're ostensibly her best spells. But yeah, swapping out one of the two entangles could help as well. I mean, she's got that pearl, so the logical approach is to have some variety on that spell level.



She does keep her 0th stocked, mostly with at least one being create water and one being purify. Useful to have.
As noted, I'd probably swap out purify and get an assortment of those three I mentioned. Other strategies would generally require some non-core elements, and wouldn't necessarily be better. Like dawn, if she's facing a lot of enemies that try to put the party to sleep.


She wanted companion spell bond because she plans to stop riding when she can wildshape. Its why I gave her the ride feats for free. With the retraining of her other feat, that still leaves 6 for either extra wildshape or augment summons.
Ah. Fair enough, I suppose.

[Darrin]

Point her towards impeding stones as a slight upgrade to entangle. The biggest pain there is casting it around the party, so if a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Sculpt Spell were to drop...

As far as summons go, see if you can get her some Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage). There's also a Chronocharm that can speed up a summon spell 1/day... Uncaring Archmage? I forget. I also prefer conjure ice beast for the cold aura (1d6 free action 10' burst, no save). It's not clear if Golden Desert Honey works the same way (DM's call) with CIB. Summoning can be a lot of bookkeeping, but there's usually one option at every level that's the best "combat" form, and the Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) does a pretty good job of identifying them. For SNA1, it's usually a wolf, so she can just stick with that as the default.

Flameblade is a decent spell, but it does put her in melee range, and at this level she should be with the REMFs. Flaming sphere is an awful spell, too easy to avoid, so I'd rather see something like splinterbolt or blinding spittle. Mass snake's swiftness is also a great force multiplier if the rest of the party is doing their job.

I have some spell advice for Druidzillas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12183941&postcount=4), but eggynack's is much more comprehensive.

[eggynack]

As far as summons go, see if you can get her some Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage). There's also a Chronocharm that can speed up a summon spell 1/day... Uncaring Archmage? I forget.
I'd probably stay away from the honey at this point. It expends when you use it, and you need to use one per spell level (so hippogriffs would cost 600 GP). Mad expensive for this level. Sweet later on though. Chronocharm of the uncaring archmage is indeed good here though. It's only 500 GP, and rapids spells that are third level or less, so it's perfect early.

[Darrin]

I'd probably stay away from the honey at this point. It expends when you use it, and you need to use one per spell level (so hippogriffs would cost 600 GP). Mad expensive for this level.

Well... a Chaos Flask (100 GP, Planar Handbook) can create 1/2 pound (8 doses?) of Golden Desert Honey, but... let's just say there's a reason "chaos" is in the name.

[Bucky]

The honey is nice because she only needs a temporary boost, not something that'll stick around for the rest of her build. And DM-treasure doesn't need to worry as much about cost.

[lord_khaine]

Im going to second the comment that druids are a LOT more complicated than people makes them sound.

And it should also be pointed out that wildshape just out of the book can be a death trap for the unwary druid.

I mean.. they look for a good fighting shape.. looks at a brown bear and spots a Str 27 with 2 claw attacks.
But then forget they also only got 15 in Ac and a d8 for hp. So the first power attacked backed full attack might take them out. That or they might get swarmed by orcs or ogres.

[Jack_Simth]

Shes already swapped out the wolf. We sat down and talked through all the options, their pros and cons, etc. She went for the Dire Bat (which isnt terrible) and I am ruling that when shes riding, she gets higher ground even if its not flying.
It's a utility companion (blindsense, listen/spot, flight), it's not a combat companion (attack, damage, charge). If she's using it for things other than staying out of reach of opponents and zapping them with spells or sling bullets from elsewhere, this may be a meaningful part of the problem. If the goal is combat, then she wants the ape (biggest bruiser in the list at that level) or the leopard (biggest pounce-enabled critter in the list at that level... well, unless you go fleshraker off of the expanded lists). Yeah, it's got a high AC (20 for the Dire Bat, vs. 14 for the Ape and 15 for the leopard)... but it's just the one attack. That's not what it's meant for.

Ill try and get her on summoning. She is kinda scared of it because she doesnt like a lot of book keeping. I suggested she just pic 2 animals from the list and write up cards for them and only ever summon them for now, but so far no luck. That said, shes seeing how awesome summon undead is thanks to our new Dread Necro, so who knows.
If she doesn't want the book keeping, then she doesn't need the book keeping. Just don't go with anything that modifies the critter, and she can just directly use the monster manual entry when she summons them. Or Print These out for her (http://www.greyhawkonline.com/smetzger/summon/3.5d20SummonNaturesAlly.zip).

That web enhancement spell looks good. Her favorite when shes not using her +1 lance (hey, a bat can charge) is flame blade(???) which isnt the one that makes your weapon covered in fire, its the one that produces a blade from her hand. Ive never seen it before, but hey, it didnt seem overpowered and if shes using that, shes already in trouble, ill over look it if its homebrew. Flame Blade is core (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm)

The party is, oddly, very range averse. Maybe I need to start through more ranged enemies at them myself, but they tend to close and smack things a lot. Which kinda makes control difficult. To her (and the party's) credit, they have talked about delaying until she has her turn. Problem is, there is only so much I can do and she has next to no dex. Most of the enemies they face roll higher initiative than her, and I cant just hold the bad guys back while they wait for the party to get things in order. Yeah... if the party likes mixing it up in melee, then some of the better low-level control spells for Druids aren't going to do very well. She's probably better off Summoning.

Im also sorta scared that going into the underdark is really gunna hurt her. They might be there for a while. They are about to hit 5th so wildshape comes online (I swear, every time I look at druid, wildshape gets one level further away!), but she still only has 1 of them a day. And theres only so much of the underdark I can populate with tree roots and mushrooms.
Dire Bat has Blindsense. That's going to be useful down there! She probably wants to get it Blind-fight as soon as possible... and maybe she should, too.

[AnachroNinja]

Feel like most of the difficulty can be chalked up to a sub par animal companion for the way she's trying to play. Bats are nice if your just hovering over the battlefield launching produce flame and using snakes swiftness, but a battle mount it is not, especially when she's got 6 STR.

[eggynack]

Well... a Chaos Flask (100 GP, Planar Handbook) can create 1/2 pound (8 doses?) of Golden Desert Honey, but... let's just say there's a reason "chaos" is in the name.
I think I had some kinda problem with this one the last time it came up. Not quite sure what it was though.

The honey is nice because she only needs a temporary boost, not something that'll stick around for the rest of her build. And DM-treasure doesn't need to worry as much about cost.
This isn't a crazy power boost. We're standard action summoning a hippogriff for 600 GP, which is a ninth of wealth by level at 4th. If you want to do anything more than standard summon a single wolf, you're already saving cash with the chronocharm. Cost has to be some level of consideration here.