Minor Creation profit

[bootzin]

I was just wondering, besides a book-to-the-face, is there anything that prevents someone from selling items made with minor creation? I mean, there are some pretty costy poisons out there...

[Sneak Dog]

Does it have a duration? If so, then it's the same downside as any creation magic: Selling people stuff that disappears, that might even get detected before completion of the sale with some detect magic.

[bootzin]

It has, but I believe it is hours/level, so no real chance of getting detected during the trade.. But I guess other than good will and reputation, there's not really a rule that don't allow you to sell these items, right?

[MisterKaws]

No, not really, but do it once and your DM will have every merchant in the world dip Warlock 2 and spam Detect Magic at each single item you sell.

[Crake]

A wand of detect magic is 375gp, the trader can afford to pop off a charge for any sale of goods above a certain amount, and that amount would be way less than anything worth the time of a 7th level wizard casting minor creation.

If you can cast minor creation you can just instead cast wall of salt and make a legitmate profit instead, or wait a couple of levels and cast wall of iron and make profit off that. There are plenty of ways to generate wealth with spells (that will flood the market and make the DM question why people are buying from you and not their local wizard instead) that don't also involve making wealthy enemies who will send enforcers after you, or risk getting yourself caught mid-transaction.

[Deophaun]

It has, but I believe it is hours/level, so no real chance of getting detected during the trade..

20 + spell level: Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell. No action required. No retry.
No need to dip Warlock.

[Jack_Simth]

I was just wondering, besides a book-to-the-face, is there anything that prevents someone from selling items made with minor creation? I mean, there are some pretty costy poisons out there...

Define book to the face.

See, the things vanish later. Poisons are costly, and the sort to be purchasing poisons aren't exactly the forgiving type. If you successfully pull this off without the mark picking up on it (detect magic can flag it, spellcraft can flag it, logic based on just how much you're trying to sell can flag it, Sense Motive can flag it), then it's very likely that you'll have assassins after you. Yes, there's countermeasures - Disguise Checks (vs Spot), illusions (which buff disguise checks... but are foiled by some spells and items), proxies, and so on... but you're basically writing your own plot hook if you try it.

[Crake]

No need to dip Warlock.

DC21-24 is not an easy number to hit reliably for a low to mid level merchant.

[Coidzor]

I could certainly see people paying for poison that would cease to exist after the target has died but before anyone can investigate the cause of death.

OTOH, that would involve contact with the source of the poison fairly close to the assassination.

[Deophaun]

DC21-24 is not an easy number to hit reliably for a low to mid level merchant.
?

14 Int (Merchants aren't stupid)
5 ranks Spellcraft (Canny merchants--the kind that have money enough to bother swindling--are experts, not commoners; they can, and should, have this skill)
5 ranks Knowledge:Arcana (See above)
Skill Focus Spellcraft (This is iffy, but given its general utility in this line of work, not a stretch)
+2 competence item (If we're spending gold on a wand, 400 gp for a permanent item isn't uncalled for)

Take 10 = 23

That's level 2. At mid-level it ain't going to be an issue.

It's more reliable than constantly trying to spam a wand with a 5% chance every time you try you short it out for the day. It's also cheaper to hire someone with this skillset than buying a wand.

[bootzin]

a 7th level wizard casting minor creation.

Psions can manifest psionic minor creation from 1st level. It creates up to 1 cu. ft of the substance, which one could argue that it's the equivalent of almost 960 vials/ounces/doses of poison. Considering you'd sell up to 5 doses (Trying not to look suspicious), if you sell Black Lotus Extract that's 22,500gp on first level. I don't think desperate assassins of the black market would be casting Detect Magic on every poison they got, specially if they see it working. Heck, get the party mage to cast silent image on you if you don't look like the sort being capable of getting the venom. I'm sure he'd happily do it if you shared the rewards 50/50.


Define book to the face.

See, the things vanish later. Poisons are costly, and the sort to be purchasing poisons aren't exactly the forgiving type. If you successfully pull this off without the mark picking up on it (detect magic can flag it, spellcraft can flag it, logic based on just how much you're trying to sell can flag it, Sense Motive can flag it), then it's very likely that you'll have assassins after you. Yes, there's countermeasures - Disguise Checks (vs Spot), illusions (which buff disguise checks... but are foiled by some spells and items), proxies, and so on... but you're basically writing your own plot hook if you try it.
While I agree that this can definitely be a problem, specially for a level 1 character, what Coidzor said is a very nice way to avoid this. You could actually sell it for a bit more specially because it vanishes. No one will get angry with you if you specify that it will vanish within an hour before you made the deal. Even if they do detect it is a magical item you could say "What? Did you really expect common poison to magically vanish after use?". Not every merchant is going to have ranks in psicraft in order to identify which power created the item (Spells are usually much more common than psionics). And even if they do, most that could happen was they buying for a (much) lower price, you'd still be making profit.

[Jack_Simth]

Psions can manifest psionic minor creation from 1st level. It creates up to 1 cu. ft of the substance, which one could argue that it's the equivalent of almost 960 vials/ounces/doses of poison. Considering you'd sell up to 5 doses (Trying not to look suspicious), if you sell Black Lotus Extract that's 22,500gp on first level. I don't think desperate assassins of the black market would be casting Detect Magic on every poison they got, specially if they see it working. Heck, get the party mage to cast silent image on you if you don't look like the sort being capable of getting the venom. I'm sure he'd happily do it if you shared the rewards 50/50.

Why would they be 'desperate' assasins? Anyone in the black market is unlikely to trust a newcomer to the scene... oh, that's why they'd be 'desperate' - you couldn't sell to regular assasins. Cuts down on your potential clientel, and thus your profits.

While I agree that this can definitely be a problem, specially for a level 1 character, what Coidzor said is a very nice way to avoid this. You could actually sell it for a bit more specially because it vanishes. No one will get angry with you if you specify that it will vanish within an hour before you made the deal. Even if they do detect it is a magical item you could say "What? Did you really expect common poison to magically vanish after use?". Not every merchant is going to have ranks in psicraft in order to identify which power created the item (Spells are usually much more common than psionics). And even if they do, most that could happen was they buying for a (much) lower price, you'd still be making profit.
If you straight up tell them this, you've got a different problem: Really short list of clients. Consider what's required to use a poison that's going to go away in a very short period of time: you have to have pretty much already planned the murder, as it has to go down today. The method can't be one that can be 'let sit' for you to get away - so no, say, lining the mark's favorite wine glass and simply letting him drop dead the next time he makes a toast.

Add to that the pesky issue that law enforcement occasionally attempts to infiltrate the black market (and thus, newcomers aren't trusted), and you're going to have a really hard time making a sale.

No need to dip Warlock.
Don't forget Sense Motive. If you're not telling them it'll vanish shortly, then you're attempting to trick them, so they're reasonably entitled to the check during negotiations.

Edit: Oh yes, and there's a 'reasonable' use for it besides selling:
Dip all of the martials' weapons in the stuff. Just make sure you're ready to counteract the effects when someone accidentally rolls a 1.

[bootzin]

Why would they be 'desperate' assasins? Anyone in the black market is unlikely to trust a newcomer to the scene... oh, that's why they'd be 'desperate' - you couldn't sell to regular assasins. Cuts down on your potential clientel, and thus your profits.

If you straight up tell them this, you've got a different problem: Really short list of clients. Consider what's required to use a poison that's going to go away in a very short period of time: you have to have pretty much already planned the murder, as it has to go down today. The method can't be one that can be 'let sit' for you to get away - so no, say, lining the mark's favorite wine glass and simply letting him drop dead the next time he makes a toast.

Add to that the pesky issue that law enforcement occasionally attempts to infiltrate the black market (and thus, newcomers aren't trusted), and you're going to have a really hard time making a sale.

Don't forget Sense Motive. If you're not telling them it'll vanish shortly, then you're attempting to trick them, so they're reasonably entitled to the check during negotiations.

Edit: Oh yes, and there's a 'reasonable' use for it besides selling:
Dip all of the martials' weapons in the stuff. Just make sure you're ready to counteract the effects when someone accidentally rolls a 1.

So basically it's all a matter of investing in bluff and gather information. And if you get the "Apprentice (Criminal)" feat, not only you get a bonus on both those skills, but you get a tutor that can vouch for you to assure you can be trusted. Considering a changeling rogue, on first level you're allowed to take 10 on most social skills (Which I believe includes both bluff and gather info). Get a couple masterwork tools, synergy bonuses and a decent Int and you can pretty much get any information you want (DC 25 is considered pretty high to obtain certain information). Get a cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar on you, if that's not enough (It would cost 60gp, extremely cheap, even low level). Ta-dah, found exactly who you've been searching for, no need to bluff, you have a tutor to vouch for you, and you could easily get very high amounts of gold on 1st level.

Admitedly, you'd break the campaign, and most DMs would not allow you to do it. But it's doable.

EDIT-----
I made an assassin character specialized in poison use, that's pretty much why I asked. But my intention is to actually dip all my weapons on it

[Stegyre]

No, not really, but do it once and your DM will have every merchant in the world dip Warlock 2 and spam Detect Magic at each single item you sell.
I wonder if that wouldn't be the least of a player's problems.

DMs often apply the rubric, "If you can do it, I can do it." The DM can always do it better than the players can. Suddenly, the items you thought you had purchased "aren't there" anymore. You find you need to cast detect magic in conjunction with all of your purchases, . . .

I suspect that things like this will quickly lead to un-fun play.

The Golden Rule applies in D&D.

[Jack_Simth]

So basically it's all a matter of investing in bluff and gather information. And if you get the "Apprentice (Criminal)" feat, not only you get a bonus on both those skills, but you get a tutor that can vouch for you to assure you can be trusted. Considering a changeling rogue, on first level you're allowed to take 10 on most social skills (Which I believe includes both bluff and gather info). Get a couple masterwork tools, synergy bonuses and a decent Int and you can pretty much get any information you want (DC 25 is considered pretty high to obtain certain information). Get a cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar on you, if that's not enough (It would cost 60gp, extremely cheap, even low level). Ta-dah, found exactly who you've been searching for, no need to bluff, you have a tutor to vouch for you, and you could easily get very high amounts of gold on 1st level.

I didn't say it can't be done... I said there's a lot of issues, and you're writing your own plot hook.

If you tell them it'll go away on schedule, then the plot hook is finding someone you can sell to (it's a tightly limited criteria - few people want others to know that they're planning murder, and to work out the timing it has to be pretty much a 'right now' thing to boot - up to the DM whether or not anyone in the area fits the criteria), and avoiding the consequences when people go hunting the supplier (success or failure of the guy who bought the vanishing poison: someone will want to figure out how to duplicate the murder so they can do it later, someone will want to figure out how to defend against that sort of attack, someone will want to bring the perpetrators to justice, someone will want to make it harder for others to duplicate the attempt).

If you do not tell them it'll go away on schedule, then the plot hook becomes the consequences when they find out about the cheating (avoiding them or dealing with them). Yes, you can disguise, bluff, and so on... but sooner or later, someone's going to want revenge. If you leaned on your master's reputation to pull off the scam, he might be after you. And, of course, NPC's can have optimized skills too. And, as Stegyre rightly pointed out, if you can do that sort of thing, so can other people. You may have things start randomly vanishing a few hours after you buy them (even things like a Headband of Intellect that you felt the Int gain from - Artificer Infusions can make a normal headband act like a Headband of Intellect for a while).


Admitedly, you'd break the campaign, and most DMs would not allow you to do it. But it's doable.

EDIT-----
I made an assassin character specialized in poison use, that's pretty much why I asked. But my intention is to actually dip all my weapons on itIf you're using it yourself in normal combat, it's a LOT less of a problem. Well, other than that your DM might get annoyed by rolling all the Fort saves when you stick three arrows into a guy in a round.

[Efrate]

The highest DC poison I know of that is plant based is greensickness which is from a plant creature in MM3 I believe. DC 33 if I am not mistaken, which will be failed by most NPCs a fair amount of time. But you are going about distribution wrong. Get yourself recognized by an organization, say the local thieves guild of your favorite metropolis, planar or otherwise, and just be a specialty vendor.

Someone needs some, they go to a contact, he puts them in touch with the guild, they contact you, you set it up. I can give you X doses of this nasty stuff, but it will disappear after a brief while. When yer ready say the word, give me a bit and I'll whip it up for you. By mid levels this is very doable and well within your ability, and classed assassins/people with poison use can be a thing easily so no risk to the poisoner from the poison. Assassinations take place after quite a bit of planning usually, so its no different than commissioning that item to defeat the magical protection you need to get in there.
u
You have the power of the thieves guild backing you, a hard to trace assassination method with disappearing poison, and enough layers of security to likely not get caught out by the law. You maintain your standing in the guild by splitting profits in a "fair" amount taking the time to consider all the "effort" you had to through to "create" this special poison, and this "risk" it poses to yourself. They do not have to know how, or maybe only the guild leader, so you maintain a level or personal value which they cannot intrinsically take. You also know all their secrets so you are a liability and they have reason to keep you on staff.

To the folks who can pay your certainly reasonable but definitely not cheap fee, they can pay for a sending and a word of recall or something so you can get it as needed before getting back to adventuring. Your party comes dips their weapons in the vat after you sell X doses, gets back out there. Good times for all. Cept the folks who died, but hey, should have taken precautions, not my fault.

[Calthropstu]

No, not really, but do it once and your DM will have every merchant in the world dip Warlock 2 and spam Detect Magic at each single item you sell.

I do that anyways. Any major shop is going to have a permanent detetect magic on the shopkeeper as part of doing business.

[Segev]

I do that anyways. Any major shop is going to have a permanent detetect magic on the shopkeeper as part of doing business.

It'd be cheaper to pay for a command-activated item of detect magic. You could have any of the shopkeeper assistants use it rather than needing each enchanted permanently separately, and it'd only be 900 gp market price. The permanency spell is 2500 gp, either outright in Pathfinder or by the 5 gp per 1 XP conversion rate generally assumed when paying a spellcaster for a spell with an XP cost in 3.5.

[mabriss lethe]

If you're taking the psionic route to create it, would suspending the bottles in quintessence stop the clock? Then you'd get the best of both worlds: a shelf-stable product that dissipates after use.

[Segev]

If you're taking the psionic route to create it, would suspending the bottles in quintessence stop the clock? Then you'd get the best of both worlds: a shelf-stable product that dissipates after use.

That would work, yes.

[Jack_Simth]

That would work, yes.
Means it can't be done at 1st, though (well, not without pretty meaningful optimization). Quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) is a 4th level Discipline power. By the time you're getting the levels up that high, there's also things like Wall of Salt (Sandstorm) that are a touch more direct.