Arcane caster build optimization

[Ludovico47]

Working on an arcane caster for a high-difficulty game. DM is allowing us some leeway, as long as we don't stray too far from RAI. Here's what I have:
Grey Elf Cleric of Mystra1/Wizard5/Incantatrix3/Sacred Exorcist1/Dweomerkeeper10
I'd take Magic and Rune domains to get Scribe Scroll at Cleric 1, then get ASS at Wizard 1 in place of Scribe Scroll. Otyugh Hole for Iron Will if he'll allow it (he should), then get Extend and Persist with DMM for Persist (or both if I have the feats), and patch and fill with Extra Turning (or Quicken and DMM if I have the feats).

I like the build for the most part. I'm not wild about dumping a caster level for Cleric, but it gets me early access to ASS as well as Dweomerkeeper without having to get too cheesy. Plus it nets me a free feat, a couple more hp, etc. I'm also wondering if there's a better option than dropping five levels into straight Wizard. I considered Master Specialist, but I think I'd rather go Elf Generalist, and a couple levels of Master Specialist wouldn't really net much gain IMO.

Thoughts? Is there something glaringly obvious I'm missing that would turn this build from good to great? I know everybody will say go straight Cleric, but my heart belongs to arcane casting.

Cheers!
'Vico

[Gusmo]

There's a good amount of cool options that fifth wizard level get you. Complete Champion for instance allows you to take spontaneous divination or a cleric domain power as your 5th level feat instead. But if you can qualify for mindbender instead, that's a solid option, due to then being able to grab the stupidly overpowered mindsight feat.

[Ludovico47]

Mindbender is easy enough to qualify for, but I don't know if I have a spare character level to burn, unless you can find a way to swap out a wizard level for it, which is hard as it requires arcane caster level 5th.

[Ludovico47]

Is there a class/PRC that grants a third turning pool? I would be willing to give up a level of Dweomerkeeper if I got a third turning pool out of it.

Also, is there a non-specialist ACF that replaces a familiar for a wizard? All I can find are specialist-specific ones, and I'd like to keep my spell pool broad.

[Rebel7284]

For a third pool, trade turn undead for rebuke dragons/turn essentia (azurin cleric substitution levels). Take level of Death Delver.

I will say though that this build is probably weaker than just going incantatrix all the way. Supernatural spell is nice and all, but you give up at least one spellcasting level, multiple feats (ASS, Divine Metamagic) and delay the metamagic reduction capstone for a couple of extra persisted spells.

[Ludovico47]

Fair, but I don't see what's so impressive about levels 4-9 of Incantatrix that aren't hugely eclipsed by Dweomerkeeper and Supernatural Spell. I admit that I'm losing a caster level, but I'm not giving up a feat at all for ASS (Rune domain gives Scribe Scroll, so I get ASS as the replacement 1st-level wizard feat), and DMM isn't a wasted feat IMO, as long as I have the turning pool to support it. Is there a class feature that I'm missing after 3rd level that makes Incantatrix top all that?

[Venger]

Mindbender is easy enough to qualify for, but I don't know if I have a spare character level to burn, unless you can find a way to swap out a wizard level for it, which is hard as it requires arcane caster level 5th.

mindbender, on an absolute scale, is easy to qualify for, but vanilla wizard has a hard time getting all those skills by 5.

I don't understand what you mean by burning a level. mindbender is always recommended for a 1 level dip since, unlike other half-casting classes, your dead levels are even, not odd.


Is there a class/PRC that grants a third turning pool? I would be willing to give up a level of Dweomerkeeper if I got a third turning pool out of it.

Also, is there a non-specialist ACF that replaces a familiar for a wizard? All I can find are specialist-specific ones, and I'd like to keep my spell pool broad.

any way of nabbing an extra domain that allows turning, such as plant or air will give you an extra pool.

wilderness companion or wizard of the sun and moon will let you ditch your familiar even if you want to remain a generalist.

[Dagroth]

any way of nabbing an extra domain that allows turning, such as plant or air will give you an extra pool.

While this is true, those pools can't be used to power Divine Feats.

Turn Undead can(Sacred Exorcist). Rebuke Undead can(Death Delver). The Rebuke Dragons ACF can & Channel Incarnum can (Cleric).

The only problem is that Extra Turning won't give you extra of both Turn & Rebuke of the same targets. If you could get Turn Undead, Rebuke Dragons and Channel Incarnum, you would get 12 extra "turns" out of the Extra Turning Feat (See my post on DMM Abuser).

[Buddy76]

Also, is there a non-specialist ACF that replaces a familiar for a wizard? All I can find are specialist-specific ones, and I'd like to keep my spell pool broad.

If your DM is ok with it, there's no reason not to take Domain Wizard from UA (you should be able to stack it on top of elven generalist). It would grant extra spells and an increase in caster level for your domain spells without costing you anything (Domain wizards do not have prohibited schools).

As for replacing your familiar, I agree with Venger, wilderness companion or wizard of the sun and moon are your best choices. There is also the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF from Dragon 357 (it eliminates the need for a spellbook), but from what I understand of your build it would cost you ASS as a bonus feat, since ES replaces not only your familiar but also scribe scroll.

[Ludovico47]

mindbender, on an absolute scale, is easy to qualify for, but vanilla wizard has a hard time getting all those skills by 5.

I don't understand what you mean by burning a level. mindbender is always recommended for a 1 level dip since, unlike other half-casting classes, your dead levels are even, not odd.

Mindbender requires 4 ranks in 4 skills. Since none of the other classes I'm taking need max ranks in any non-Cleric/Wizard skills, it'd be manageable from a skill rank perspective. However, I need Arcane Caster Level 5th, which means I need level 5 Wizard. I need Incantatrix 3 because duh, Sacred Exorcist 1 nets me the extra turning pool for DMM, and I'm not giving up the Dweomerkeeper capstone, it's too essential. So when I say "burn a level," I mean give up a level of something I need/want.

If anybody knows how to qualify for Mindbender/Incantatrix/Sacred Exorcist after only 4 levels of Wizard, though, I'm all ears.

[Venger]

While this is true, those pools can't be used to power Divine Feats.

Turn Undead can(Sacred Exorcist). Rebuke Undead can(Death Delver). The Rebuke Dragons ACF can & Channel Incarnum can (Cleric).

The only problem is that Extra Turning won't give you extra of both Turn & Rebuke of the same targets. If you could get Turn Undead, Rebuke Dragons and Channel Incarnum, you would get 12 extra "turns" out of the Extra Turning Feat (See my post on DMM Abuser).

I don't see anything about that in the section on divine feats. is the rule you're referring to someplace else?

if you have only say, the plant domain's granted power, then you're correct in that you can't take most divine feats since they stupidly require "turn/rebuke undead" and not just any turn/rebuke, but if you have turn/rebuke undead from some other source, such as sacred exorcist, allowing you to take the feat, then I don't know of a rule that prevents you from fueling that feat with any turn/rebuke pool you have access to.


Mindbender requires 4 ranks in 4 skills. Since none of the other classes I'm taking need max ranks in any non-Cleric/Wizard skills, it'd be manageable from a skill rank perspective. However, I need Arcane Caster Level 5th, which means I need level 5 Wizard. I need Incantatrix 3 because duh, Sacred Exorcist 1 nets me the extra turning pool for DMM, and I'm not giving up the Dweomerkeeper capstone, it's too essential. So when I say "burn a level," I mean give up a level of something I need/want.

If anybody knows how to qualify for Mindbender/Incantatrix/Sacred Exorcist after only 4 levels of Wizard, though, I'm all ears.

none of the skills mindbender requires are class skills for wizard, so even if you have a lot of skill points, it's probably more trouble than it's worth to qualify for it in time, especially since you've got other things you need to spend your skill points on in order to qualify for those prcs on time. if you don't need to enter mindbender at 5, then entry is indeed not a problem.

enter as an aventi or take spell thematics. either will boost your arcane CL by 1.

[Ludovico47]

Venger, I like where your head is at, but I think those solutions take a few too many liberties with RAW than my DM would allow.

Ultimately, though I could probably swing Mindbender, it's not a MUST for me, and would require a lot of sacrifices to achieve. I think I can do without it.

[Dagroth]

I don't see anything about that in the section on divine feats. is the rule you're referring to someplace else?

if you have only say, the plant domain's granted power, then you're correct in that you can't take most divine feats since they stupidly require "turn/rebuke undead" and not just any turn/rebuke, but if you have turn/rebuke undead from some other source, such as sacred exorcist, allowing you to take the feat, then I don't know of a rule that prevents you from fueling that feat with any turn/rebuke pool you have access to.

In Complete Divine, it says you need to use Turn/Rebuke Undead to fuel Divine Feats.

Under the entries for Rebuke Dragons & Channel Incarnum, it specifically says those abilities can be used to fuel Divine Feats. I believe they are specifically called out because they are not Domain Granted powers, but ACFs which replace the Class Feature of Turn/Rebuke Undead.

No Domain power says it can be used to fuel Divine Feats. Not even Domains that were released in Complete Divine or after.