Player ineptitude endangering them in-game: How to deal

[Thealtruistorc]

Normally, my issues tend to be with players who know too much about the game I am playing, the ones who are too smart for me to handle or who are too set on thrashing the campaign setting for me to easily manage them. Today, I have the opposite problem.

The party at this point is composed entirely of new players, and the result has been catastrophic ruin in every level-appropriate encounter I've tried to throw at them. The party is a catfolk oracle focused on two-weapon fighting with a quarterstaff, a bard who frequently forgets that she has access to spells, a rogue that rarely ever tries to sneak attack, and a wizard who has a tendency to blow all her spells right at the start of the day.

I'm running Rise of the Runelords with them (another try after the last disaster that occurred with that campaign), and the goblins as written are frequently slaughtering them. If played with even decent intelligence, every encounter would result in the death of a party member (the oracle is a replacement for a ranger who died a while back), and I frequently have to make up hackneyed excuses (for example, the goblins decide not to get up after falling over because of the grease spell) in order to ensure that the entire party isn't butchered. Some comedic ineptitude is appropriate for goblins, but I'm nearing the point where the monsters would have to be brain-dead to give the players a chance. Their first attack on Thistletop left them floundering in the water, where the goblins could easily (and would sensibly) just pick them off with arrows as they tried to swim away.

Is RotR simply too hard for a group like this, or am I doing something wrong?

[Dagroth]

I vaguely recall Rise of the Runelords from when a friend tried to get my group to do Pathfinder...

I was playing Bat-Shaman (with the Christian Bale voice and everything :smallbiggrin: ), but I don't recall the other characters in the group.

One of the things I remember distinctly was that the Goblins were hideously more effective and dangerous than expected... and this is a group of gamers that have been playing for decades.

So yeah, it might be tough for a newbie gaming group.

[Fizban]

Sounds like you need to teach your players how to play DnD first. That is, the accumulated wealth of standardized strategy and tactics that veterans take for granted, including how to fight as a team rather than a group of individuals, and how to choose, build, and run characters. The classic way to do this is to let them die, and keep letting them die until they git gud, but most people nowadays don't really appreciate that. If you want them to git gud immediately, they have to be willing to learn and then use that knowledge. If they aren't willing to learn and you aren't willing to crush them until they do, then you're out of options.

[Korahir]

I am also running Rise of the Runelords for a newbie group but I helped them with character creation. They moped the floor with the goblins and everything else so far. I think it is not merely there playstyle but also their characters. TWF oracle sounds especially worrying.

[Uncle Pine]

Sounds like you need to teach your players how to play DnD first. That is, the accumulated wealth of standardized strategy and tactics that veterans take for granted, including how to fight as a team rather than a group of individuals, and how to choose, build, and run characters. The classic way to do this is to let them die, and keep letting them die until they git gud, but most people nowadays don't really appreciate that. If you want them to git gud immediately, they have to be willing to learn and then use that knowledge. If they aren't willing to learn and you aren't willing to crush them until they do, then you're out of options.
This or alternatively you can play the next low-level encounter they find as it's meant to be played (=not braindead creatures) and most likely cause a TPK, because that's what it'll happen if these players are as disastrous as you describe them. I assume you have already tried in the past to give the players suggestion, either by remembering them how to use a class feature or when to use it, so if that doesn't work and you all want to go through this module, let them learn by dying. Several times if necessary. The 4th time they're slaughtered by barely functioning goblins they should realize what they're doing wrong.

[emeraldstreak]

Kill them. Give them barbarians.

[Killdread]

The most important thing to do is, in my opinion, figure out if they actually want to get better, and further figure out if they want to win the fights.

To start i'd probably let them get TPK'd once, and then give them another chance without having to roll up new characters and see how they react, both to see if they have fun while losing and if they improve after they lose, and you need to keep in mind the most important thing about these games, you play them to have fun.

One more thing i might suggest is pointing them towards this or similar forums so they can get a larger pool of theoretical knowledge that might help them. Then maybe try playing some less difficult campaigns if that doesn't work.

Finally if you and your group just aren't having fun, you might consider splitting up, though that should be a last resort.

[EldritchWeaver]

The party at this point is composed entirely of new players, and the result has been catastrophic ruin in every level-appropriate encounter I've tried to throw at them. The party is a catfolk oracle focused on two-weapon fighting with a quarterstaff, a bard who frequently forgets that she has access to spells, a rogue that rarely ever tries to sneak attack, and a wizard who has a tendency to blow all her spells right at the start of the day.

This sounds like as if the classes the various people have chosen aren't the best fit for the players. If training them to use the class features doesn't work, the only solution is to switch the classes with ones which fit the playstyle. For example, instead a wizard use a class with at-will powers like kineticist or one from the 3PP Spheres of Power supplement.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Whatever you do, don't go down the "kill them until they figure it out" route. That'll just cause bad feelings and unfun sessions. Not everyone wants to play a tactical wargame.

As always, the first step is "ask." Talk to your players, say that you've seen that they're having trouble with encounters and ask if they're having fun or getting frustrated. If their having fun with their characters, just weaken your encounters and continue.

[Darth Ultron]

The easy thing to do is to de-power the foes. Just make the game easy. Have foes use bad tactics and ideas...and act a lot like the players. A good one is to swap out the foes weapons to weapons that only do 1d6 damage or less...like daggers, for example.

Basic Pathfinder/D&D is all about ''aggressively kill your foes'' , but you can make it more ''Disney'' like for your players. So foes will do things like ''stand around a lot'' and ''take the characters captive for no reason'' and ''lock them up in a tool shed''.

The hard way is to ''teach'' them how to play. If they are willing you can sit down with them and talk. It might be worth it to make them index cards with important information. You might even want to give them battle plans and tricks and tips.

[JonathanPDX]

It sounds like they are not ready for a serious adventure or module and need more of a tutorial period until they work their way up to being ready for more challenging and scripted encounters.

If I were the DM I'd probably put that adventure on hold and do a few sessions with really simple classes and builds, then walk through various encounters to discuss how their abilities work together. I wouldn't even get into nonstandard races, potentially complex classes like the oracle, or trying to build characters far outside of the norm (like a staff oracle.) I'd focus on how to position for sneak attacks, targeting the ideal location for a grease spell, and deciding when to heal, use a potion, or wait until after combat to recover. I walk new players through encounters and do a review afterward where I point out other things they could have done or opportunities they missed. If players forget their abilities I help them make quick reference lists with bullet points so no useful ability gets overlooked on the character sheet.

If you are running them through an adventure they are not prepared for either they are going to get frustrated or you are. Instead of bashing your head against the wall why not take a step back and start at the beginning. You can either make new, simple characters who will advance until they are experienced enough (as players AND characters) to take on the adventure, or suggest that they work together to design a new, balanced party to start the adventure fresh with their newfound skills.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Is RotR simply too hard for a group like this, or am I doing something wrong?

Talk to them pre- or post-session. Do they feel like they're being successful? Why? What issues have they been encountering? Do they have any advice for each other or suggestions to share? Are there particular challenges that they feel underprepared for?

And so forth. Draw them into a discussion with each other about the game situation, and adjust accordingly.

[Arbane]

Whatever you do, don't go down the "kill them until they figure it out" route. That'll just cause bad feelings and unfun sessions. Not everyone wants to play a tactical wargame.

As always, the first step is "ask." Talk to your players, say that you've seen that they're having trouble with encounters and ask if they're having fun or getting frustrated. If their having fun with their characters, just weaken your encounters and continue.

As usual, Grod speaks wisdom.

If you can find a place to put a few extra fights in the scenario, how about throwing some LITERALLY brain-dead enemies at them? Send them into a crypt with some skeletons and zombies in it, let them get a feel for Tactics 101.