Head canon reasons why a rogue at the exact center of a fire ball takes zero damage.

[Zsaber0]

Exactly as the title say. I've always found it hard to justify why this happened but by the rules it does. So i wanted other people's perspectives.

[Vizzerdrix]

Mad limbo skills.

[daremetoidareyo]

At what distance before impact does the fireball expand from the pea sized projectile? Is this assumed to be the exact same for everycasting?

Maybe the rogue throws his cape around the pea before it expands, diverting much of the heat around him. Maybe the rogue pulls up a dungeon tile and shields himself as he scrambles to known cool zones of fireball blasts.

The better question is how does studying magic make you able to cast a fireball? And, Why the sudden need to disbelieve after the casting but not before? Seems like the kind of thinking that leads to caster supremacy.

[Karl Aegis]

He rolls a d20 and hopes for the best.

[Pleh]

Ever see those crazy internet stories, "how did they SURVIVE that?!"?

The evasion ability is clearly designed to replicate that sense of astonishing luck.

Just because Fireball fills the space with fire doesn't mean there aren't short lived gaps as the fire expands.

Yes, to be able to reflexively evade that kind of attack is rather... extraordinary.

[InvisibleBison]

Something like quantum tunneling. The rogue just lets the energy pass through his body without being affected by it.

[johnbragg]

My rogue headcanon gets a little deep.

Start with the idea that a D&D verse is a magical universe. "Magic" is the principle of mind over matter. But one key facet is that magic comes in different forms. Casters focus their magic through specific spell-patterns. But spells and SLAs and incantations are only one form of magic. Stat bonuses, size, "Ex" abilities, AC, BAB, skill ranks, Special Abilities, Special Qualities are all just different ways of imposing your will upon the world around you--which is itself only the residue of other's exerting their will upon the primal chaos and/or primal void.)

So casters use spells to make reality sit up, roll over and beg. Warrior-types focus their awesomeness through their weapons to control the world around them. Bards use their ranks in Perform. (Experts might use their ranks in Craft.)

But what about Rogues?

We can easily understand a D&D verse as the intersection various mathematical probability fields, some with bell-curve shaped distributions and some with "flat" d20 based distributions.
What distinguishes Rogues is that they have an intuitive understanding of this fact, and they exert their dominance over reality by manipulating these probability fields.

So the rogue intuits that the fireball is NOT, properly understood in the relevant sense, an instantaneously created rapidly expanding sphere of fire energy. It is a set of numbers, that may or may not interact with another set of numbers (namely the Rogue's HP total.)

So the Rogue exploits his control over the MAtrix and just "nopes" the fireball.

(This, of course, is not an intuitive way of thinking, so sometimes, especially at low levels, the Rogue does not entirely succeed and takes half-damage. It is, however, woven into the fabric of the universe, so sometimes even non-rogues can "nope" a fireball for half-damage.)

[Jack_Simth]

Exactly as the title say. I've always found it hard to justify why this happened but by the rules it does. So i wanted other people's perspectives.

Boils down to "what's a fireball?" "What does a reflex save represent?" and other things left open for DM world building.

For instance:
If a fireball is a perfect volume of fire, then it doesn't make sense... but then, neither does the reflex half aspect for anyone else.
If, on the other hand, a fireball has variations inside - pockets of air that didn't move aside as the fire blasts through, say - then it makes a bit more sense: A normal reflex save gets you halfway into one of those pockets, an Evasion reflex save gets you into one of those pockets completely for the short period of time the blast lasts.

[Deeds]

All successful reflex saves are done with a backflip.

[Jopustopin]

How does a rogue "trick" a magic item into working. The rogue "tricks" the fireball into not affecting him. He "nopes" it.

[Dagroth]

All successful reflex saves are done with a backflip.

Are you sure it's not a barrel roll?

[Uncle Pine]

My headcanon is that characters with Evasion mastered the art of "being the leaf".

[Mato]

Q: Why a rogue takes 0 damage from fireball?
A:
Maybe the rogue throws his cape around. Himself (https://youtu.be/mAGG9w4QzQo?t=688).

I thought there was a simple Q&A thread...

[ShurikVch]

There are no reasons.
Rogue's Evasion is one of the Proud Nails (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a).

[Mordaedil]

You could also houserule that he can't.

Heck, you could declare that damage taken is based on your distance from the center and declare that a successful save means you can five-foot step into a safer direction and take less damage and that evasion simply allows you to 10-foot step and improved evasion always allows you to at least 5-foot step out of danger.

The only reason it isn't done this way is simple book-keeping and to simplify combat. Also because metamagic like widen spell complicates the issue with the distance no longer being a matter of fact as it would otherwise be.

[Pugwampy]

Dodging Fireballs makes the locksmith feel special . Its a sucky job dependent on how many traps and locks are in the dungeon or if you even dungeon crawl much . You could break the law at your fave hub town with tavern and temple options but that would annoy your buddies .

Even with an optimized backstab or archer build you feel less cool than the fighter or sorcerer farting everything to death .

The halforc rogue in my last campaign said his most fun was an afternoon session spent sneaking up on and catching bunnies .

[redwizard007]

Diving to the ground, dodging behind a convenient meatshield, spinning to the side... Evasion, and Reflex saves in general, probably need a movement component for crunch to meet fluff.

[Bad Wolf]

The same way you can turn a dragon into a squirrel.

[Mordaedil]

The same way you can turn a dragon into a squirrel.

Evasion isn't a wizard ability.

Although...

[Vogie]

You have to also describe the fireball

Is it a projectile? He Neo-dodges around it
Is it a column? He steps aside and watches it pass like Spiderman
Is it an explosion? He Batman-Capes it

I've always thought that certain reflex/Dex saves should involve character movement, depending on the thing dodged.
It could be a couple steps out of the way, it could be Getting thrown aside by an explosion

[Red Fel]

Dodge charms.

[Gruftzwerg]

a) jump/tumble over it
b) lay prone to avoid the dmg
c) turn around yourself quickly and hide in your cloak to avoid dmg
...
just think about something fitting.

[Psyren]

There are no reasons.
Rogue's Evasion is one of the Proud Nails (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a).

I love articles like these where the designers can just gripe about all the sacred cows.


You could also houserule that he can't.

This may not even be a houserule. Rules Compendium 113:


Evasion and Improved Evasion

Evasion and improved evasion allow the target of an area attack to leap or twist out of the way. If a creature that has evasion is subjected to an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, it takes no damage on a successful save. Improved evasion is like evasion, except that even on a failed saving throw a creature that has improved evasion takes only half damage. A creature must have room to move to evade. A bound creature or one squeezing through an area can’t use evasion.

Evasion and improved evasion are reflexive abilities. A creature that has one of these abilities need not know that the attack is coming to use the ability.

[Segev]

Dodge charms.

Bloody fisking dodge charms! :smallfurious:


More seriously, well played, Red Fel.




As to my headcanon, I figure that he either finds or makes a gap in the flames. Perhaps he swishes his cloak to duck behind it safely. Maybe he uses his short sword to cut the fire and create a wedge that fills in again behind him. He might have taken the precaution that morning of preparing a water balloon which he pops over his head just as the fireball passes, causing the water to flash-evaporate but allow no heat to transfer to his person in absorbing it from the fire.

[SimonMoon6]

The rogue manages to find his way into the fourth spatial dimension. He briefly jumps into this extra-dimensional space and then hops back out when everything is safe.

[Deadline]

Simple, Fireball doesn't fill the entire area with fire. Fire moves through the entire area, sure, but it's not like there aren't spots with less or no fire at any one time. Anyone quick enough can find a spot with less fire (successful reflex save). Anyone specially trained can find a spot with no fire (successful reflex save with Evasion).

[Psyren]

Simple, Fireball doesn't fill the entire area with fire. Fire moves through the entire area, sure, but it's not like there aren't spots with less or no fire at any one time. Anyone quick enough can find a spot with less fire (successful reflex save). Anyone specially trained can find a spot with no fire (successful reflex save with Evasion).

Or they find a spot with less fire, and then do the cloak-flip or whatever to mitigate that zone down to zero. Either way, we all agree on the RAW and the fluff justification for it isn't too much of a stretch.

[Stealth Marmot]

Okay let's make sure you understand what evasion means. Evasion does not mean he DODGES the fireball. Evasion means he TAKES NO DAMAGE from the fireball.

Every see firebreathers, or people who literally pick up and roll around a ball of fire in their hands, or wave their hands over fire or snuff out a candle with their fingertips without hurting their hand? The fireball HITS the rogue, but he tucks and rolls so fast that he puts the fire out fast enough that he does not actually get hurt from it. Or he covers himself in a cloak he was wearing and chucks it off real fast after the initial flame wash and it was the only thing on fire. It's the same with someone attacking someone in plate armor and getting over a 10. The guy in plate doesn't become incredibly nimble and dodge the hit, the hit just didn't do any damage because it glanced off or was flat stopped by the metal plates of the armor.

[Vogie]

Okay let's make sure you understand what evasion means. Evasion does not mean he DODGES the fireball. Evasion means he TAKES NO DAMAGE from the fireball.

Every see firebreathers, or people who literally pick up and roll around a ball of fire in their hands, or wave their hands over fire or snuff out a candle with their fingertips without hurting their hand? The fireball HITS the rogue, but he tucks and rolls so fast that he puts the fire out fast enough that he does not actually get hurt from it. Or he covers himself in a cloak he was wearing and chucks it off real fast after the initial flame wash and it was the only thing on fire. It's the same with someone attacking someone in plate armor and getting over a 10. The guy in plate doesn't become incredibly nimble and dodge the hit, the hit just didn't do any damage because it glanced off or was flat stopped by the metal plates of the armor.

Yes, RAW does indeed state that no damage is taken. But they also call it "Evasion" instead of "Really fast Quench" or "Returning Ambiguous Effect-Catching Cloak". Evasion is a word defined by "an act or instance of escaping, avoiding, or shirking something" so using dodge explanations do fit. You can see other things pointing at that, such as the creation requirements of a Ring of Evasion (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/rings.html#ring-of-evasion):


Ring of Evasion
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot ring; Price 25,000 gp; Weight —
Description - This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
Construction Requirements: Forge Ring, jump (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/jump.html#jump); Cost 12,500 gp

[Stealth Marmot]

Or they find a spot with less fire, and then do the cloak-flip or whatever to mitigate that zone down to zero. Either way, we all agree on the RAW and the fluff justification for it isn't too much of a stretch.

This is what I was trying to say, but says more with fewer words.

[Krazzman]

Wasn't it rogue space? I remember someone stating they step into rogue space.

Another question is why would you get half damage despite being in the center if you rolled well enough on the reflex save?

[NecroDancer]

I always assumes the rogue just jumps straight up.

[dervin]

i always assumed that i used the conveniently placed fighter or other party member as cover :smallamused: .

[Psyren]

Wasn't it rogue space? I remember someone stating they step into rogue space.

Another question is why would you get half damage despite being in the center if you rolled well enough on the reflex save?

Half damage is much easier to explain actually. It means you acted quickly enough to cover vital areas like your eyes and ears, you didn't inhale superheated air down your throat into your lungs right as the fireball detonated etc. It's still hot, but it could be a lot worse.


i always assumed that i used the conveniently placed fighter or other party member as cover :smallamused: .

Actually, this is a thing that can happen - if you party member is giving you Cover (say, they're bigger than you) then you do in fact get a bonus on your reflex save.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This may not even be a houserule. Rules Compendium 113:

Whelp....What is that? Reason #...105 that I'll NEVER EVER use Rules Compendium? I've lost count of all the fail in that horrible book.

[Psyren]

Whelp....What is that? Reason #...105 that I'll NEVER EVER use Rules Compendium? I've lost count of all the fail in that horrible book.

It's not a bad rule - being able to use evasion when you're, say, squeezing through an air duct half your size makes no sense. The book wouldn't be needed if they had thought to include common sense in core.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's not a bad rule - being able to use evasion when you're, say, squeezing through an air duct half your size makes no sense. The book wouldn't be needed if they had thought to include common sense in core.

It is a bad rule. It's adding restrictions that aren't in the actual class feature, all so the ability to avoid hand-wavium magic is more "realistic" (ie, nerfed...sure would be nice to see things get buffed due to realism sometimes)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Whelp....What is that? Reason #...105 that I'll NEVER EVER use Rules Compendium? I've lost count of all the fail in that horrible book.

I don't know that that one's on RC. I'd swear I remember reading it somewhere else, though I'm having trouble finding it.

[SirNibbles]

From the SRD: "Extraordinary abilities... may break the laws of physics."

[90sMusic]

I think the general idea is when you make a reflex save, you're rolling to see if you're quick enough to react to try to do something or avoid something.

Rogues specialize in this further and have such great reaction times that even if caught by surprise they can still quickly avoid at least some of the damage but if they do react fast enough they avoid it altogether.

How? By laying on the ground i'd say. If an explosion is heading your way, laying down as close to the ground as possible is your best bet because you'll avoid most of the force. It's the go-to safety technique for lessening or avoiding harm from things like grenades or other imminent explosions.

Fireballs in D&D also obviously lack the same destructive power behind them as real explosions like grenades. In D&D even if you FAIL a save, you can stand there and eat a fireball to the face as a full health warrior (even in METAL PLATE ARMOR that would grill and melt your flesh off on the inside of it) and shrug it off like nothing happened. Magical Fireballs are nowhere near as good as science-based explosions.

So when using a technique that is effective against real and effective/powerful explosions against something magnitudes weaker like a wizard's fireball, of course it's far more effective. I'd guess the actual heat of that freball disperses and dissipates very rapidly since it was "forced" to happen by magic but it cannot sustain it's self because it lacks fuel. All fire needs fuel and you can't just burn the "air". Without fuel that fire goes out instantly which is why it's so weak and nonthreatening.

anyway its largely up to the DM to explain why things work and don't work. The most entertaining D&D games have the D&D paint the picture and tell the story for every attack to really illustrate whats going on.

[InvisibleBison]

I think the general idea is when you make a reflex save, you're rolling to see if you're quick enough to react to try to do something or avoid something.

Rogues specialize in this further and have such great reaction times that even if caught by surprise they can still quickly avoid at least some of the damage but if they do react fast enough they avoid it altogether.

How? By laying on the ground i'd say. If an explosion is heading your way, laying down as close to the ground as possible is your best bet because you'll avoid most of the force. It's the go-to safety technique for lessening or avoiding harm from things like grenades or other imminent explosions.

The problem with trying to shoehorn real-life-physics compatible explanations for extraordinary abilities (which as has been noted in this thread can defy the laws of physics) is that it leads to situations where you have to either abandon your explanation or nerf the power. In this case, what happens when a character with evasion is hit by a fireball while flying? They can't lie on the ground; there is no ground to lie on.


Fireballs in D&D also obviously lack the same destructive power behind them as real explosions like grenades. In D&D even if you FAIL a save, you can stand there and eat a fireball to the face as a full health warrior (even in METAL PLATE ARMOR that would grill and melt your flesh off on the inside of it) and shrug it off like nothing happened. Magical Fireballs are nowhere near as good as science-based explosions.

Also, this is just wrong. A fragmentation grenade deals 4d6 damage (DMG p. 146), whereas the weakest possible fireball does 5d6 damage.

[Psyren]

It is a bad rule. It's adding restrictions that aren't in the actual class feature, all so the ability to avoid hand-wavium magic is more "realistic" (ie, nerfed...sure would be nice to see things get buffed due to realism sometimes)

I don't care what the original feature says, I care about what makes sense. The whole point behind rules updates (FAQ and errata and reprint edits) is because enough people/designers sat a table, interacted with an published ability and said "wow, this is really dumb, we should patch it." Holding up the original like it's somehow perfect when it's not prevents any progress from being made at all.

[johnbragg]

I don't care what the original feature says, I care about what makes sense. The whole point behind rules updates (FAQ and errata and reprint edits) is because enough people/designers sat a table, interacted with an published ability and said "wow, this is really dumb, we should patch it." Holding up the original like it's somehow perfect when it's not prevents any progress from being made at all.

OK, here's the explanation that makes sense. Just as our world can be expressed as the interaction of various fields which can be represented mathematically, so can a D&D verse. Except that a D&D verse is magical, which means that those fields are responsive to willpower either nudging or flat-out overriding what the math should say. Rogues are especially good at changing their position instantaneously and temporarily in a pressure situation. At the moment of the fireball, they dip into "rogue space" and either partially or completely avoid its effects. (PArtial means you didn't time it exactly right.) Any conscious being (maybe any living being) has this ability to some extent (everything that gets a Reflex save) but Rogues (and everyone/thing else with Evasion) are especially good at it.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, Evasion doesn't work without successful Reflex save.
Thus, we wouldn't be able to explain it without explaining - what is, exactly, a Reflex save?

[Segev]

I'm with Psyren on this one, except for one thing: How on earth are you even making a Reflex save when squeezing or confined, let alone using Evasion? (Now, restricting Improved Evasion when you're not allowed to make a Reflex save is reasonable.)

[johnbragg]

I'm with Psyren on this one, except for one thing: How on earth are you even making a Reflex save when squeezing or confined, let alone using Evasion? (Now, restricting Improved Evasion when you're not allowed to make a Reflex save is reasonable.)

Rogue space. Re-watch the first hour or so of the Matrix, and re-read Haley's speech in Azure City about which of the three Xykons was the real one. Rogues intuitively grasp the mathematics of their reality, and if they'll cheat at solitaire of course they'll cheat at physics. "Yeah, that wasn't really my physical location right then. I was, uh, somewhere else that wasn't being hit by a fireball right then. But I'm back there now."

Headcanon: Vanellope from WReck-It Ralph may have Rogue levels.

Think of it as reality-manipulation on an axis perpendicular to Spell REsistance.

[Red Fel]

Said it before, will say it again.


"Hey, how did you not get any blood on you?"

"Dodge Charms."

"But, I mean, when you were cleaning the-"

"Dodge Charms."


"How did you avoid getting hurt this time?"

"Dodge Charms."

"Is that your answer to everything?"

"Because it is the answer to everything."
Rogues are so good at stealing that they steal a mechanic from across systems.

[Segev]

Rogues are so good at stealing that they steal a mechanic from across systems.

I'm reminded of a Night Caste concept I had once: He learned of Exaltations and the god thereof as a mortal. So he sneaked into Heaven and STOLE a Solar Exaltation.

Whether he Exalted due to the epic deed, or he actually successfully stole an Exaltation, is...a good question.

[Stealth Marmot]

All I'm going to say on the matter of it not making sense is this:

When it comes to games, Balance trumps Logic.

Sometimes you have to make the logic fit the balance, and if that means you have to explain evasion as not dodging the fireball but instead tucking and rolling at the exact right time, or sliding under the fire wave, or even deciding that the fireball spell actually has narrow holes that you would have to be trained to see and use.

That said, DM fiat can be used as necessary if you want to, but keep in mind that a rogue player will feel rather cheated if he didn't know his ability would have some of its functionality taken away. It affects strategy, remember that.

I dont think it will come up that often anyway.

[Eladrinblade]

Area spells don't take up the area 100%, rather the area is shot through with streamers, and not necessarily from the point of origin outwards like a grenade would. I imagine the rogue doing a really fast and tight jump spin, but if the rogue is an unathletic lardass....it still doesn't make much sense. However, the DMG says the character "can leap or twist out of the way" so I guess I was imagining it right. Also, they must have room to move, so they can't be bound or squeezing.

[Mordaedil]

It is a bad rule. It's adding restrictions that aren't in the actual class feature, all so the ability to avoid hand-wavium magic is more "realistic" (ie, nerfed...sure would be nice to see things get buffed due to realism sometimes)

Even Evasion straight out of the book says it is lost if you were to be caught flat-footed or for any reason lost your dexterity bonus to AC, so it's not exactly out there. Being stuck in a narrow space does cost you your dexterity bonus already. Oops, wait, was that a 3.0 rule that got changed in 3.5?

[The_Iron_Lord]

Fireballs in D&D also obviously lack the same destructive power behind them as real explosions like grenades. In D&D even if you FAIL a save, you can stand there and eat a fireball to the face as a full health warrior (even in METAL PLATE ARMOR that would grill and melt your flesh off on the inside of it) and shrug it off like nothing happened. Magical Fireballs are nowhere near as good as science-based explosions.
Also, this is just wrong. A fragmentation grenade deals 4d6 damage (DMG p. 146), whereas the weakest possible fireball does 5d6 damage.

I think what 90sMusic meant was that a real-life explosion (not a real-life explosion in game mechanics) is a heck of a lot more effective at blowing people up than a fireball is in D&D.