Tiamat enters Faerun

[Pinjata]

So, I'm asking this from metagame (stats) perspective and lore perspective. Say certain groups manage tosummon Tiamat to Faerun. How destructive could she be? How destructive would she be? What would be her goal? How realiably can a a group of four lvl 20 characters (standard array: tank, cleric, full caster, rogue) defeat Tiamat as currently statted in Tyranny of the dragons?

thanks

[Darth Ultron]

Tiamat is a city level destruction event, at least. Few cities could take her full wraith.

Her somewhat vague goal is to make a dragon empire, or even world. So first she'd need to knock the old world down and break the power of the humans, elves and such and send them back to the near stone age. Then spawn a bunch of dragons and rule the world.

She can be defeated by ''normal characters''.

[JackPhoenix]

From lore perspective, I'm not sure she would be able to do much before Ao or some of the Faerunian gods decided to deal with her... they are always meddling in mortal affairs (or at least did, I'm not sure about the current state of that rule). Does RoT mention why other gods won't deal with her?

[DragonSorcererX]

So, I'm asking this from metagame (stats) perspective and lore perspective. Say certain groups manage tosummon Tiamat to Faerun. How destructive could she be? How destructive would she be? What would be her goal? How realiably can a a group of four lvl 20 characters (standard array: tank, cleric, full caster, rogue) defeat Tiamat as currently statted in Tyranny of the dragons?

thanks

In TRoT, Tiamat summoning can be screwed up by the players, and if they manage to screw it up enough, Tiamat becomes weak enough to be defeated by a party of 15th level (wich should be the pc's level by that time I think)

[Unoriginal]

Something I don't quite get about the Tyrany of Dragons's stats for Tiamat is: are those her actual, full god stats, or is she on a weakened state because she had to incarnate in the Material Plane?

[DragonSorcererX]

Something I don't quite get about the Tyrany of Dragons's stats for Tiamat is: are those her actual, full god stats, or is she on a weakened state because she had to incarnate in the Material Plane?

She can be weakened by the pc's actions (TRoT page 88 - Weakening the Dragon Queen), but if not, she comes at full power.

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MISS THE STUFF IN PAGE 88?!

[Unoriginal]

She can be weakened by the pc's actions (TRoT page 88 - Weakening the Dragon Queen), but if not, she comes at full power.

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS MISS THE STUFF IN PAGE 88?!

I don't *have* the book. I just saw the stats.

[lianightdemon]

Those are her full stats, the effects of the weakening reduce those ones. See the book for more details.

[RedMage125]

From lore perspective, I'm not sure she would be able to do much before Ao or some of the Faerunian gods decided to deal with her... they are always meddling in mortal affairs (or at least did, I'm not sure about the current state of that rule). Does RoT mention why other gods won't deal with her?

Gods in FR have become more distant. Ao's new rules mean they take a direct hand less often. Tiamat was summoned by MORTALS, thus allowing her to bypass that particular caveat. And it took a huge ritual that required several specific sacrifices and the collection and assembly of an artifact.

[Unoriginal]

Tiamat is quite simply the most powerful being with stats in 5e. Even without the ressources at her disposal, she's mighty enough to lay waste to anything that's not a bunch of top-level characters.

Essentially, if Tiamat shows up, it'd be like an apocalypse for most of the species of the world.

[DragonSorcererX]

Tiamat is quite simply the most powerful being with stats in 5e. Even without the ressources at her disposal, she's mighty enough to lay waste to anything that's not a bunch of top-level characters.

Essentially, if Tiamat shows up, it'd be like an apocalypse for most of the species of the world.

While she can kick the ass of one party member in one turn and still wreck the rest of the party with her breath weapons at the same time... I don't think she is all that... It probably takes only one Mary Sue (like Elminster) to send Tiamat back to the Nine Hells... but, the problem with Tiamat is that she can unite the Chromatics... if she does that, everyone is screwed...

Now, I have a question, why does Tiamat needs to rely on inferior humanoids to bring her to Faerun when there is a bunch of adult or older chromatics out there???

[JackPhoenix]

While she can kick the ass of one party member in one turn and still wreck the rest of the party with her breath weapons at the same time... I don't think she is all that... It probably takes only one Mary Sue (like Elminster) to send Tiamat back to the Nine Hells... but, the problem with Tiamat is that she can unite the Chromatics... if she does that, everyone is screwed...

Now, I have a question, why does Tiamat needs to rely on inferior humanoids to bring her to Faerun when there is a bunch of adult or older chromatics out there???

Because dragons aren't much of a spellcasters in 5e and propably can't perform the ritual.

[Finback]

Say certain groups manage tosummon Tiamat to Faerun. How destructive could she be? How destructive would she be?

Exhibit A!

Only minus two heads. (https://youtu.be/X11-CFhY84Q?t=33)

[furby076]

Summoning a god, any god, is tricky business. Who knows what they really want. Yes, you could allow players adventure to summon tiamat but then when they bring her, they need to figure out how to mollify her. Maybe they have a grand plan that will help further her goals. She is a goddess, so clearly smart enough to avoid being duped.

If she was just summoned, and a fight broke out - it would be her vs the players. Alternatively, she may flee, and amass chromatic dragons to do what she wants to do (destroy the world). Now the PCs will need to find others who are willing to work with them to kill her. Since they summoned her, that will require some heavy diplomacy.

So, why do your players want to summon a goddess of evil?

[Unoriginal]

It probably takes only one Mary Sue (like Elminster) to send Tiamat back to the Nine Hells

This would be a question of forced narrative bull****, not of power. Being defeated in a cutscene doesn't count.


Now, I have a question, why does Tiamat needs to rely on inferior humanoids to bring her to Faerun when there is a bunch of adult or older chromatics out there???

Dragons are not going to slavishly devote themselves to such an endeavor, especially if they risk to not be rewarded.

[JackPhoenix]

Summoning a god, any god, is tricky business. Who knows what they really want. Yes, you could allow players adventure to summon tiamat but then when they bring her, they need to figure out how to mollify her. Maybe they have a grand plan that will help further her goals. She is a goddess, so clearly smart enough to avoid being duped.

If she was just summoned, and a fight broke out - it would be her vs the players. Alternatively, she may flee, and amass chromatic dragons to do what she wants to do (destroy the world). Now the PCs will need to find others who are willing to work with them to kill her. Since they summoned her, that will require some heavy diplomacy.

So, why do your players want to summon a goddess of evil?

OP didn't said anything about players wanting to summon Tiamat. Her cultists are trying to summon her in Rise of Tiamat, players are there to stop them. OP is asking how dangerous would she be if she's not stopped.

[Geek000]

i dont know maybe she could destroy a few settelments/cites or something

[Squibsallotl]

She wrecks a city or two, and then a prepared team of high level adventurers turns up to destroy her. See below for how this might go down (I got bored and designed a party of 4 to defeat her, then ran a mock battle).

Assumptions:
Each PC has drunk a Potion of Resistance of each of Tiamat's damage types prior to the battle.
All AoE's cast by Tiamat will hit at least 2 party members.
Tiamat will focus melee attacks against Paladin to avoid Sentinel reprisal, unless she has a chance to kill a PC.
Death Ward has been cast on all PCs prior to the fight (3x from the Cleric, 1x from the Paladin).
Tiamat stands and fights, rather than kites the party with flight. Maybe the Wizard cast Antipathy/Sympathy (attract Tiamat) to an underground location, or maybe they're all taunting her each round to insult her pride.

Party roster:

Half-Orc Wolf Totem Barbarian
Str: 24
Dex: 14
Con: 24
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

HP: 285 AC: 20
Saves: Str +15, Con +15, Dex +4, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha -1
Init: 6

Feat: Great Weapon Master
Ioun Stone of Mastery, Vorpal Greatsword, Cloak of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Attacks 2/round, +17 to hit, 22 (32 with GWM) dmg. On a crit deal 68 dmg and bonus attack.
Prep actions: 1 bonus action (rage)

Variant Human Oath of Devotion Paladin
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 20

HP: 204 AC: 29
Saves: Str +6, Dex +3, Con +4, Int +1, Wis +9, Cha +13
Init: 14

Feat: Sentinel
Feat: Tough
Defense fighting style
Plate Armor +3, Shield +3, Holy Avenger, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Attacks 2/round, +18 to hit (sacred weapon), 59 damage (first two hits), 54 (next two hits), drops by 5 more for each 3 hits afterwards. On a crit deal 111 damage
(first two hits), 101 (next two hits), drops by 10 more for each 3 hits afterwards.
Prep actions: 1 action (sacred weapon)

High Elf Bladesinger Wizard
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 20
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Stats in Wizard form:
HP: 142 AC: 21 (26 with Bladesong, 31 with Shield)
Saves: Str +2, Dex +7, Con +11 (+16 with Bladesong), Int +13, Wis +9, Cha +1
Init: 8

Feat: Resilient (Con)
Ioun Stone of Fortitude, Luck Blade Longsword, Ring of Protection, Studded Leather Armor +3, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Stats in Pit Fiend Form:

HP: 300 AC: 19 (24 with Bladesong, 29 with Shield)
Saves: Str +8, Dex +8, Con +13 (+18 with Bladesong), Int +6, Wis +10, Cha +7

Resists cold, immune to fire and poison
Attacks 4/round, +14 to hit, 27 dmg, 22 dmg, 20 dmg, 29 dmg
Prep actions: 1 action (shapechange), 1 bonus action (bladesong)

Hill Dwarf War Cleric
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 20
Cha: 10

HP: 183, AC: 28
Saves: Str +3, Dex +1, Con +11, Int +2, Wis +13, Cha +7
Init: 9

Feat: Resilient (Con)
Plate Armor +3, Shield +3, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison, Staff of Striking +3

Can attack as bonus action 5/rest, +13 to hit, 33 damage (up to 3x, spending 3 charges from the staff each time).
Prep actions: 1 action (Holy Aura)


Friendly Aoe Buffs active:
+5 to all saves (paladin aura of protection)
Immune to fear (paladin aura of courage)
advantage on melee attacks against Tiamat (wolf totem barbarian)
advantage on all saving throws (holy aura)
Tiamat makes attacks at disadvantage (holy aura)


Tiamat Initiative: 14

Tiamat and Paladin tied for initiative, paladin has higher Dex bonus (+1), goes first.

Init order:
Paladin, Tiamat, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian.

Paladin activates Sacred weapon, moves up to melee.
Tiamat legendary action triggers, uses Black Dragon Head acid breath against whole party.
Barbarian: 14(19), fail. Paladin: 8 (13), fail. Wizard: 22(27), success. Cleric: 8(13), fail. Party take 34 acid damage each, Wizard takes 17.

Barbarian down to 251HP. Paladin down to 170HP. Wizard (caster form) down to 125HP. Cleric down to 149HP.

Tiamat's legendary actions replenish. Uses Frightful Presence (resisted by all due to fear immunity), then Multiattacks the Paladin.
30,22,24. One hit. Paladin takes 24 slashing damage.

Paladin down to 146HP.

Cleric's turn, moves up to melee, casts Holy Aura and attacks as a bonus action via War Priest (1/5).
1,2(15). Miss.
Tiamat legendary action triggers, uses Blue Dragon Head lightning breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both auto fail and take 44 damage. Cleric has to make a DC 22 Concentration save to maintain Holy Aura.
8,8(24), passes.

Paladin down to 102HP, Cleric down to 105HP.

Wizard's turn, uses Bladesong, casts Shapechange into Pit Fiend form and moves up to melee. Tiamat's legendary action triggers, uses Red Dragon Head fire breath against Paladin & Cleric.
both auto fail and take 46 damage. Cleric has to pass DC 23 Con save to maintain Holy Aura.
19,18(35). Passes.

Paladin down to 56HP, Cleric down to 59HP.

Barbarian's turn, activates Rage and moves up to melee, attacks twice using GWM both times.
17,13 (29). 16,10 (28). Hits both times, Tiamat takes 64 damage.
Tiamat's remaining legendary action triggers, Green head attempts to bite Paladin.
17,1. Critical miss.

Tiamat down to 551HP.

Paladin's turn, attacks twice.
8,11 (29), 16,10 (34), hits both times. Tiamat takes 118 damage.

Tiamat down to 433HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish.. Multiattacks the Paladin
11,9(28), 7,2(21), 8,8(27), miss all three.

Tiamat up to 463HP.

Cleric's turn, casts Mass Heal and restores all PCs to full health. Makes Bonus action attack with war Priest (2/5)
7,7(20), miss, uses Channel Divinity to turn it into hit (1/3). Tiamat takes 33 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, White Dragon head cold breath against Paladin & Cleric.
4,19(25), 19,5(25), both fail and take 36 damage each. Cleric must make a DC 18 Con save to maintain Aura.
3,11(27), success.

Paladin down to 168HP, Cleric down to 147HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as Pit Fiend.
1,4(18), 4,10(24), 7,4(21), 17,8(31). Cleric uses Channel Divinity to turn the 18 into a hit (2/3), two hits. Tiamat takes 56 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Black Dragon head acid breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both fail and take 34 acid damage each. Cleric must make DC 17 Con save to maintain Holy Aura, auto success.

Tiamat down to 407HP. Paladin down to 134HP, Cleric down to 113HP.

Barbarian's turn, attacks 2x with GWM on each attack.
13,6(25), 12,4(24). One hit, one miss. Tiamat takes 32 damage.
Tiamat uses remaining legendary action, Bites Paladin with Green dragon head.
9,5(24). Miss.

Tiamat down to 375HP.

Paladin's turn, attacks twice.
6,17 (35).17,9 (35). Two hits. Tiamat takes 108 damage.

Tiamat down to 267HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish. Multiattacks the Paladin.
20,19(38), 4,5 (23), 8,9(27), one hit. Paladin takes 24 damage.

Tiamat up to 297HP. Paladin down to 110HP.

Cleric's turn, casts Heal on Paladin, heals 70hp. Makes bonus action attack with War Priest (3/5)
8,6(19), miss. Uses Channel Divinity (3/3) to turn it into a hit, Tiamat takes 33 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Blue dragon head lightning breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both fail and take 44 damage. Cleric must succeed at DC 22 Con save.
19,7(35), pass.

Tiamat down to 264HP. Paladin up to 136HP, Cleric down to 69HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as pit fiend.
19,16(33), 1,11(25), 5,9(23), 2,10(24). Two hits, Tiamat takes 49 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Red dragon head fire breath against Paladin & Cleric. Both fail and take 46 damage. Cleric must make DC 23 Con save.
11,4(27), pass.

Tiamat down to 215HP. Paladin down to 90HP, Cleric down to 23HP.

Barbarian's turn, attacks 2x with GWM.
19,2(31), 17,2(29), two hits, Tiamat takes 64 damage.
Tiamat's remaining legendary action triggers, Green dragon head Bite Cleric.
17,12(31), hit.
Cleric takes 32 damage, would reduce him to -9. Death Ward triggers and reduces him to 1hp. Paladin gets Reaction attack from Sentinel.
8,6(26), hit. Tiamat takes 49 damage.

Tiamat down to 166HP. Cleric down to 1hp.

Paladin's turn, attacks 2x.
6,10(28), 12,12(30), two hits. Tiamat takes 98 damage.

Tiamat down to 68HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish. Casts Divine Word, Cleric must make a DC 26 Charisma save or die.
2,1(14), fail, Cleric dies. Holy Aura dissipates (Tiamat can attack normally, PCs don't get advantage on saves).

Tiamat up to 98HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as pit fiend.
18,8(32), 15,11(29), 3,19(33), 12,16(30), 4 hits. Tiamat takes 98 damage and dies.


RIP dear Cleric.

[Asmotherion]

While she can kick the ass of one party member in one turn and still wreck the rest of the party with her breath weapons at the same time... I don't think she is all that... It probably takes only one Mary Sue (like Elminster) to send Tiamat back to the Nine Hells... but, the problem with Tiamat is that she can unite the Chromatics... if she does that, everyone is screwed...

Now, I have a question, why does Tiamat needs to rely on inferior humanoids to bring her to Faerun when there is a bunch of adult or older chromatics out there???

You are going with the asumption that all Chromatics want her back.

There are sure a lot of chromatics that favor their freedom and lazy lifestyle over being slaves to their god-mother in a quest for world-conquest. Some may be alied to other evil deities after Her fall, and fear revenge. Others may not believe in Theocracy, or want to be viewed as the most powerfull, instead of as puppets to a deity. Different schools of thought and even politics among Dragons may make it more dificult for one to act. Chromatic Dragons have two major enemies from ancient times that will not leave them act freely, namelly Metalic Dragons and Giants. A humanoids are easyer to act unnoticed than dragons, and can do more subtle works that Chromatics can not, due to their lacking the ability to Shape-Shift like their cousin-enemies. Strategically, it's a better plan to amass humanoids than a Dragon Army, as Giants and Metalic Dragons won't bother so much with humans, wile they would react instantly to a Chromatic Dragon Army.

[furby076]

OP didn't said anything about players wanting to summon Tiamat. Her cultists are trying to summon her in Rise of Tiamat, players are there to stop them. OP is asking how dangerous would she be if she's not stopped.

My bad. In that case. It would be bad. very bad. Like Ghostbusters I bad - except replace Staypuff with a flight of angry/happy chromatic dragons

[furby076]

She wrecks a city or two, and then a prepared team of high level adventurers turns up to destroy her. See below for how this might go down (I got bored and designed a party of 4 to defeat her, then ran a mock battle).

Assumptions:

Tiamat will focus melee attacks against Paladin to avoid Sentinel reprisal, unless she has a chance to kill a PC.





i know this is after the battle, but how did Tiamat know about the paladin having sentinal feat? Did she scry him in advance? Did they fight before? Did one of her allies, who fought (or saw the PCs fight before) tell her of this ability? If not, that is pure meta-gaming on the part of the DM. Even DMs shouldn't metagame stuff. Player advantages should be a surprise to the enemies just like enemy advantages are surprises to the PCs (unless some mitigating circumstance)

[Unoriginal]

You know, Tiamat attacking a major city and burninating it would be a good opening for a campaign. Kind of Final Fantasy-like.

[cZak]

If the party is high level, seems a nice way to draw out some Mary Sue's (Elminster, et al) to attack...

[MeeposFire]

In Faerun she will eventually be defeated it is more a question of how dramatic the person in charge of the story wants it to be. There are so many ways for the setting to deal with gods running amok that it really becomes a question of how you want to handle it. Low level adventurers will find some artifact that deals with her or summons another god to deal with it. Higher level ones might challenge her themselves with help. A book may have some classic characters figure out a way to deal with her. FR is not lacking in these methods and frankly rampaging gods there are not new or novel.

[Squibsallotl]

i know this is after the battle, but how did Tiamat know about the paladin having sentinal feat? Did she scry him in advance?

This was a simulated fight to see whether a party of four could take her on. Tiamat used optimal tactics to create a kind of "worst case scenario", for similar reasons she only ever used her Green head for bite attacks because the party are all wearing Periapt of proof against poison for attunement-free immunity. If she finds out the hard way about sentinel she dies a turn or two earlier, and the cleric might live.

A real battle would go more poorly for her.

[DragonSorcererX]

In Faerun she will eventually be defeated it is more a question of how dramatic the person in charge of the story wants it to be. There are so many ways for the setting to deal with gods running amok that it really becomes a question of how you want to handle it. Low level adventurers will find some artifact that deals with her or summons another god to deal with it. Higher level ones might challenge her themselves with help. A book may have some classic characters figure out a way to deal with her. FR is not lacking in these methods and frankly rampaging gods there are not new or novel.

That's why most of the Elder Evils (or maybe all of them) have no chance, if Tiamat appearing on the material plane and not causing any weird enviromental effect (at least not in the whole world) will eventually draw attention from Mary Sues, what are these Elder Dumbasses thinking when drawing so much attention to themselves (even if they are immune to scrying, someone will realise that worms are raining from the sky and people are getting cancer spontaneously).

[Envyus]

First thing Elminster is no where near Tiamat in power and would get his ass kicked.

Second Tiamat would be supported by Hordes of Dragons if she got to the material plane.

Combined with the fact that only the strongest people on the planet can hurt her and many of those people don't get along with each other. And they would still have a ton of problems getting through all of her dragon allies.

A caster must be able to cast 7th level or better spells to affect her with them. And Magic weapons are required to hurt her. Their likely simply is not enough High Level people that can defeat her unless they worked together. And many of those people have far too much bad blood between them to ever do so.

[pwykersotz]

In Faerun she will eventually be defeated it is more a question of how dramatic the person in charge of the story wants it to be. There are so many ways for the setting to deal with gods running amok that it really becomes a question of how you want to handle it. Low level adventurers will find some artifact that deals with her or summons another god to deal with it. Higher level ones might challenge her themselves with help. A book may have some classic characters figure out a way to deal with her. FR is not lacking in these methods and frankly rampaging gods there are not new or novel.

That's an incredibly depressing outlook.

[JackPhoenix]

That's an incredibly depressing outlook.

Sadly, it's true. There are about two rampaging god(like being)s per edition in FR. And Mary Sues are eternal.

[MeeposFire]

That's an incredibly depressing outlook.

Nah just taking the romanticism out of it. Do you disagree that there are many ways that you could choose to fix this that fit what we have seen in FR before? Do note I am not saying that this cannot be fun or exciting and as I put you can do this using low, medium, and high level characters in addition to what you might see in a book. Of course the people in the setting don't know this so to them this is "THE END OF DAYS" but if you look at it from our perspective this has literally been done before with other gods and probably even with Tiamat too and Tiamat is not even the most powerful god to do so in FR.

[Unoriginal]

First thing Elminster is no where near Tiamat in power and would get his ass kicked.


Elminster is like Batman when Batman writers take the "Batman can do anything and beat anyone given prep time" seriously. It doesn't matter he shouldn't be able to do it, he just does because.

And he was in troubles, he'd have the sexy goddess of magic he's the lover of to save his ass.

[pwykersotz]

Nah just taking the romanticism out of it. Do you disagree that there are many ways that you could choose to fix this that fit what we have seen in FR before? Do note I am not saying that this cannot be fun or exciting and as I put you can do this using low, medium, and high level characters in addition to what you might see in a book. Of course the people in the setting don't know this so to them this is "THE END OF DAYS" but if you look at it from our perspective this has literally been done before with other gods and probably even with Tiamat too and Tiamat is not even the most powerful god to do so in FR.

I think that's what depresses me, I love the romanticism. Everything has been done, sure, but letting yourself get excited about a concept is part of what brings that concept to life, even from our perspective. From a practical level, sure, Tiamat won't end the world (unless this is a special time and the DM has something crazy in mind). But the sensationalism of a LITERAL RAMPAGING DEITY is pretty awesome, and I like to embrace it.

I think it's because I'm overly practical in real life, so I love an excuse to throw that practicality out the window when I play D&D. You're definitely correct, I just don't like it. :smalltongue:

[DragonSorcererX]

I think that's what depresses me, I love the romanticism. Everything has been done, sure, but letting yourself get excited about a concept is part of what brings that concept to life, even from our perspective. From a practical level, sure, Tiamat won't end the world (unless this is a special time and the DM has something crazy in mind). But the sensationalism of a LITERAL RAMPAGING DEITY is pretty awesome, and I like to embrace it.

I think it's because I'm overly practical in real life, so I love an excuse to throw that practicality out the window when I play D&D. You're definitely correct, I just don't like it. :smalltongue:

Just to remember, this Deity has SUPER HIGH mental stats and the Trickery Domain (but you can ignore the SUPER HIGH mental stats because it is D&D)...

[MeeposFire]

I think that's what depresses me, I love the romanticism. Everything has been done, sure, but letting yourself get excited about a concept is part of what brings that concept to life, even from our perspective. From a practical level, sure, Tiamat won't end the world (unless this is a special time and the DM has something crazy in mind). But the sensationalism of a LITERAL RAMPAGING DEITY is pretty awesome, and I like to embrace it.

I think it's because I'm overly practical in real life, so I love an excuse to throw that practicality out the window when I play D&D. You're definitely correct, I just don't like it. :smalltongue:

Ah but you forget while it is true that there are many options in the setting to potentially defeat Tiamat the important part is which one is the story set up to use. I am taking the romantisism out of this because this is just a thread about it and the question leads to this answer but what is fun is how it works in YOUR adventure in YOUR version of the setting.

To your players there may be nobody else around to help and it may be up to them to save the world. Yes there are NPCs that perhaps could have done it but they are not here but YOU are and the world needs you now. Maybe the hordes of evil dragons and her other allies can be held off by the more well known NPCs and your other allies but the PCs end up standing toe to toe with Tiamat. Perhaps your lower level heroes banish her by going on a great quest to find the special artifact that can defeat her.

Just like the setting has bunches of options to potentially rid of Tiamat the setting has bunches of ways to make sure that anyone the story creator wants to have a shot at stopping her gets to do so in dramatic fashion. The question only becomes boring and unromantic when you look at it from the broad lens of "can Tiamat be stopped in FR" but it becomes exciting when you view from the lens of "how can our stalwart heroes stop Tiamat?". The second question will get my blood pumping and the creative juices flowing the first really does not.

[Gizmogidget]

One has to remember that if Tiamat appears, you are probably not only dealing with Tiamat, but the chromatic dragons of the world, any people dedicated to her, evil clerics and paladins etc. The mere fact of her entry would probably start a global conflict.

Can she be beat? Yes, see above posts.

[Envyus]

Elminster is like Batman when Batman writers take the "Batman can do anything and beat anyone given prep time" seriously. It doesn't matter he shouldn't be able to do it, he just does because.

And he was in troubles, he'd have the sexy goddess of magic he's the lover of to save his ass.

Then you clearly don't know too much about the guy. Lots of things have kicked his ass. Hell a subordinate of the Xanathar a normal Mind Flayer nearly killed him in his most recent book and left him out of commission for several days. (He also never even beat the Mind Flayer)

Said Goddess also could not help him against Tiamat as she would have to somehow get to the material plane as well. Which would not happen if Tiamat got there.

You guys have vastly overestimated the Realms. The Time of Troubles when gods were forced into their much weaker mortal avatars was considered a massive event. The only gods that died there were ether killed by other gods or with the intervention of other gods. (Cyric stabbing Bhaal with a sword that was secretly Mask for example)

The only being in the Forgotten Realms I can think of that could possible oppose Tiamat and her support meaningfully is Larloch. And it's very likely he would simply not get involved.

[BeefGood]

The mock battle was entertaining, thank you! I tried to find a reason that the cleric was the one who died--beyond perhaps bad rolls--but couldn't find one. Your thoughts?


She wrecks a city or two, and then a prepared team of high level adventurers turns up to destroy her. See below for how this might go down (I got bored and designed a party of 4 to defeat her, then ran a mock battle).

Assumptions:
Each PC has drunk a Potion of Resistance of each of Tiamat's damage types prior to the battle.
All AoE's cast by Tiamat will hit at least 2 party members.
Tiamat will focus melee attacks against Paladin to avoid Sentinel reprisal, unless she has a chance to kill a PC.
Death Ward has been cast on all PCs prior to the fight (3x from the Cleric, 1x from the Paladin).
Tiamat stands and fights, rather than kites the party with flight. Maybe the Wizard cast Antipathy/Sympathy (attract Tiamat) to an underground location, or maybe they're all taunting her each round to insult her pride.

Party roster:

Half-Orc Wolf Totem Barbarian
Str: 24
Dex: 14
Con: 24
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

HP: 285 AC: 20
Saves: Str +15, Con +15, Dex +4, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha -1
Init: 6

Feat: Great Weapon Master
Ioun Stone of Mastery, Vorpal Greatsword, Cloak of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Attacks 2/round, +17 to hit, 22 (32 with GWM) dmg. On a crit deal 68 dmg and bonus attack.
Prep actions: 1 bonus action (rage)

Variant Human Oath of Devotion Paladin
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 20

HP: 204 AC: 29
Saves: Str +6, Dex +3, Con +4, Int +1, Wis +9, Cha +13
Init: 14

Feat: Sentinel
Feat: Tough
Defense fighting style
Plate Armor +3, Shield +3, Holy Avenger, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Attacks 2/round, +18 to hit (sacred weapon), 59 damage (first two hits), 54 (next two hits), drops by 5 more for each 3 hits afterwards. On a crit deal 111 damage
(first two hits), 101 (next two hits), drops by 10 more for each 3 hits afterwards.
Prep actions: 1 action (sacred weapon)

High Elf Bladesinger Wizard
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Int: 20
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Stats in Wizard form:
HP: 142 AC: 21 (26 with Bladesong, 31 with Shield)
Saves: Str +2, Dex +7, Con +11 (+16 with Bladesong), Int +13, Wis +9, Cha +1
Init: 8

Feat: Resilient (Con)
Ioun Stone of Fortitude, Luck Blade Longsword, Ring of Protection, Studded Leather Armor +3, Periapt of Proof Against Poison

Stats in Pit Fiend Form:

HP: 300 AC: 19 (24 with Bladesong, 29 with Shield)
Saves: Str +8, Dex +8, Con +13 (+18 with Bladesong), Int +6, Wis +10, Cha +7

Resists cold, immune to fire and poison
Attacks 4/round, +14 to hit, 27 dmg, 22 dmg, 20 dmg, 29 dmg
Prep actions: 1 action (shapechange), 1 bonus action (bladesong)

Hill Dwarf War Cleric
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 20
Cha: 10

HP: 183, AC: 28
Saves: Str +3, Dex +1, Con +11, Int +2, Wis +13, Cha +7
Init: 9

Feat: Resilient (Con)
Plate Armor +3, Shield +3, Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Periapt of Proof Against Poison, Staff of Striking +3

Can attack as bonus action 5/rest, +13 to hit, 33 damage (up to 3x, spending 3 charges from the staff each time).
Prep actions: 1 action (Holy Aura)


Friendly Aoe Buffs active:
+5 to all saves (paladin aura of protection)
Immune to fear (paladin aura of courage)
advantage on melee attacks against Tiamat (wolf totem barbarian)
advantage on all saving throws (holy aura)
Tiamat makes attacks at disadvantage (holy aura)


Tiamat Initiative: 14

Tiamat and Paladin tied for initiative, paladin has higher Dex bonus (+1), goes first.

Init order:
Paladin, Tiamat, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian.

Paladin activates Sacred weapon, moves up to melee.
Tiamat legendary action triggers, uses Black Dragon Head acid breath against whole party.
Barbarian: 14(19), fail. Paladin: 8 (13), fail. Wizard: 22(27), success. Cleric: 8(13), fail. Party take 34 acid damage each, Wizard takes 17.

Barbarian down to 251HP. Paladin down to 170HP. Wizard (caster form) down to 125HP. Cleric down to 149HP.

Tiamat's legendary actions replenish. Uses Frightful Presence (resisted by all due to fear immunity), then Multiattacks the Paladin.
30,22,24. One hit. Paladin takes 24 slashing damage.

Paladin down to 146HP.

Cleric's turn, moves up to melee, casts Holy Aura and attacks as a bonus action via War Priest (1/5).
1,2(15). Miss.
Tiamat legendary action triggers, uses Blue Dragon Head lightning breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both auto fail and take 44 damage. Cleric has to make a DC 22 Concentration save to maintain Holy Aura.
8,8(24), passes.

Paladin down to 102HP, Cleric down to 105HP.

Wizard's turn, uses Bladesong, casts Shapechange into Pit Fiend form and moves up to melee. Tiamat's legendary action triggers, uses Red Dragon Head fire breath against Paladin & Cleric.
both auto fail and take 46 damage. Cleric has to pass DC 23 Con save to maintain Holy Aura.
19,18(35). Passes.

Paladin down to 56HP, Cleric down to 59HP.

Barbarian's turn, activates Rage and moves up to melee, attacks twice using GWM both times.
17,13 (29). 16,10 (28). Hits both times, Tiamat takes 64 damage.
Tiamat's remaining legendary action triggers, Green head attempts to bite Paladin.
17,1. Critical miss.

Tiamat down to 551HP.

Paladin's turn, attacks twice.
8,11 (29), 16,10 (34), hits both times. Tiamat takes 118 damage.

Tiamat down to 433HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish.. Multiattacks the Paladin
11,9(28), 7,2(21), 8,8(27), miss all three.

Tiamat up to 463HP.

Cleric's turn, casts Mass Heal and restores all PCs to full health. Makes Bonus action attack with war Priest (2/5)
7,7(20), miss, uses Channel Divinity to turn it into hit (1/3). Tiamat takes 33 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, White Dragon head cold breath against Paladin & Cleric.
4,19(25), 19,5(25), both fail and take 36 damage each. Cleric must make a DC 18 Con save to maintain Aura.
3,11(27), success.

Paladin down to 168HP, Cleric down to 147HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as Pit Fiend.
1,4(18), 4,10(24), 7,4(21), 17,8(31). Cleric uses Channel Divinity to turn the 18 into a hit (2/3), two hits. Tiamat takes 56 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Black Dragon head acid breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both fail and take 34 acid damage each. Cleric must make DC 17 Con save to maintain Holy Aura, auto success.

Tiamat down to 407HP. Paladin down to 134HP, Cleric down to 113HP.

Barbarian's turn, attacks 2x with GWM on each attack.
13,6(25), 12,4(24). One hit, one miss. Tiamat takes 32 damage.
Tiamat uses remaining legendary action, Bites Paladin with Green dragon head.
9,5(24). Miss.

Tiamat down to 375HP.

Paladin's turn, attacks twice.
6,17 (35).17,9 (35). Two hits. Tiamat takes 108 damage.

Tiamat down to 267HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish. Multiattacks the Paladin.
20,19(38), 4,5 (23), 8,9(27), one hit. Paladin takes 24 damage.

Tiamat up to 297HP. Paladin down to 110HP.

Cleric's turn, casts Heal on Paladin, heals 70hp. Makes bonus action attack with War Priest (3/5)
8,6(19), miss. Uses Channel Divinity (3/3) to turn it into a hit, Tiamat takes 33 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Blue dragon head lightning breath against Paladin & Cleric.
Both fail and take 44 damage. Cleric must succeed at DC 22 Con save.
19,7(35), pass.

Tiamat down to 264HP. Paladin up to 136HP, Cleric down to 69HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as pit fiend.
19,16(33), 1,11(25), 5,9(23), 2,10(24). Two hits, Tiamat takes 49 damage.
Tiamat's legendary action triggers, Red dragon head fire breath against Paladin & Cleric. Both fail and take 46 damage. Cleric must make DC 23 Con save.
11,4(27), pass.

Tiamat down to 215HP. Paladin down to 90HP, Cleric down to 23HP.

Barbarian's turn, attacks 2x with GWM.
19,2(31), 17,2(29), two hits, Tiamat takes 64 damage.
Tiamat's remaining legendary action triggers, Green dragon head Bite Cleric.
17,12(31), hit.
Cleric takes 32 damage, would reduce him to -9. Death Ward triggers and reduces him to 1hp. Paladin gets Reaction attack from Sentinel.
8,6(26), hit. Tiamat takes 49 damage.

Tiamat down to 166HP. Cleric down to 1hp.

Paladin's turn, attacks 2x.
6,10(28), 12,12(30), two hits. Tiamat takes 98 damage.

Tiamat down to 68HP.

Tiamat's turn, regenerates 30hp, legendary actions replenish. Casts Divine Word, Cleric must make a DC 26 Charisma save or die.
2,1(14), fail, Cleric dies. Holy Aura dissipates (Tiamat can attack normally, PCs don't get advantage on saves).

Tiamat up to 98HP.

Wizard's turn, attacks 4x as pit fiend.
18,8(32), 15,11(29), 3,19(33), 12,16(30), 4 hits. Tiamat takes 98 damage and dies.


RIP dear Cleric.

[DragonSorcererX]

I wonder what does Asmodeus thinks of his guard doggy screwing up one of the planes from where he pulls off the souls that feed The Nine Hells...