What's the Deal with Worms that Walk?

[Malimar]

Ok, so Worm that Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm) is a template listed as an epic monster, and there's an epic spell that can create a Worm that Walks. This vaguely implies it is intended to be a challenge faced only at epic levels.

But there's no lower limit on what level a spellcaster has to be to become a Worm that walks, only "any evil wizard or sorcerer", and it's only CR+3, doesn't have an epic CR adjustment or anything.

You can also have a chance to turn a dead spellcaster into a Worm that Walks pre-epic by spending 10,000 gp, 2,000 XP, limited wish, polymorph any object, summon swarm with Heighten Spell, and sympathy, with a 1% chance per uncast spell slot -- so, a 15th-level wizard could have a chance to make even a 1st-level spellcaster into a Worm that Walks.

And theoretically a Worms that Walk could even arise naturally without needing the 15th-level wizard, right? The god of vermin might bless his arcane followers by making them Worms that Walk once they die. (In practice, I'd probably ignore the stated limitation to wizards and sorcerers only and consider myself free to apply it to clerics of the god of vermin. But that's DM fiat.)

So I guess my main question is: how reasonable is it really for a DM to use the Worm that Walks template at low levels?

[Afgncaap5]

It's reasonable to use it at low levels with a DM who's reasonable. I wouldn't use one to create a Gargantuan vermin to attack players at level 5 and justify it as being "CR Appropriate", for instance.

I guess the bigger question is: what do you want to get out of it as a GM? I had a GM pit us up against a hivemind of Demiliches once, and it was great, but we also only encountered it in situations where it wouldn't want to use its full might against us for whatever reason.

[Zanos]

So I guess my main question is: how reasonable is it really for a DM to use the Worm that Walks template at low levels?
Not very reasonable if you're actually using the templates features. The WtW gets a flat +20 bonus to AC and a touch attack that inflicts a flat 100 damage. Then it has CL 20 SLAs to summon swarms, up to 200 HD of vermin, etc. +20 hide and move silently will turn it into a stealth king as well, and 300ft blindsight means stealth basically doesn't work on it.

What are you trying to actually use the template for at low levels? Pretty much none of the granted abilities are suitable.

[Remuko]

I may be wrong but it seems like OP is really asking how it works. As he said it could in theory be used on a lvl 1 Caster. Would that not make a CR 4 WtW? As the person above me said the abilities it has don't match up. I think OP is wondering what the challenge of a WtW really is particularly if the base that was made into a WtW was a low level caster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The problem is that you're expecting "reasonable" from the Epic Level Handbook.

[Malimar]

The problem is that you're expecting "reasonable" from the Epic Level Handbook.
I am definitely seeing this now.

My thought process was basically this: "This monster is so cool, I wish it were available to use pre-Epic. Oh wait, it's only CR+3 and not limited to Epic base creatures, is it maybe available to use pre-Epic? I'll ask the Playground!"

Admittedly I didn't even look at the template's granted abilities very in-depth; I probably could have answered my own question if I had just looked more carefully. My bad, stupid question, I had a dumb. It's definitely lying about only being CR+3 (except probably at actual epic levels.)

I should be able to just backport Pathfinder's Worm that Walks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/worm-that-walks-cr-2/) with no problems though, right? Basically the same deal but more correctly CRed, right?

[daremetoidareyo]

I think it's the mm2, but there is the leechwalker...which could easily be a wyrmling WTW

[Coidzor]

I should be able to just backport Pathfinder's Worm that Walks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/worm-that-walks-cr-2/) with no problems though, right? Basically the same deal but more correctly CRed, right?

The main issue there is making sure you're not pitting it against PCs that are too low level to really deal with the DR 15/-.

[Zancloufer]

As a CR 4 creature? Not reasonable at all. Almost unhittable, and can OHKO with a touch attack. Cranking up it's CR doesn't help either though: At some points (probably CR 15-20) it actually becomes a reasonable CR for the template.

While you can use it "pre-epic" I wouldn't throw it at any party that wasn't packing at least 8th level spells.

Pathfinder template is more reasonable (removing the three biggest issues it had) though that DR 15/- +Crit/SA immunity it something to watch out for. Probably not worth using until at least CR 5+, less than that and it's more of a Binary Challenge (can you hurt it? Yes it's dead. No? Well TPK time).

[Red Fel]

So I guess my main question is: how reasonable is it really for a DM to use the Worm that Walks template at low levels?

I think you missed a very important detail. Unless you use an epic-level spell to create a Worm, there's a little caveat that notes that the probability of success is based on the deceased, not the creator of the Worm. To wit: "Even if the ritual is performed correctly, there is only a chance that the deceased spellcaster will arise as a worm that walks. For each prepared but uncast arcane spell the deceased had at the moment of death (or unused spell slots if a spontaneous caster), there’s a 1% chance that a worm that walks will slither from the grave soil in 1d4 days."

In other words, if your hypothetical level 15 Wizard attempts that trick on a level 1 Wizard for some reason, you're looking at a 4% chance of success, given that he has 3 0th-level spells and 1 1st-level spell.

Now, your DM can declare that one spontaneously arose, because the text notes that possibility. Your DM can also declare that the entire world is infested with Fiendish Half-Dragon Half-Golem Rust Monsters, because we're assuming that this DM is basically history's greatest monster at this point.

What's stopping a DM from being history's greatest monster? Nothing. But that same rule applies in any context, whether it's Worms that Walk at level 1, or Antimagic Fields completely surrounding the planet.

[Eldariel]

A low level Worm that Walks is actually quite weak to magic. As aberrations they are vulnerable to e.g. Sleep, Color Spray and company. As much as it feels like they should be immune to mind-affecting stuff as a hivemind, they aren't (PF WtW is vulnerable to mind-affecting as well). Thus, your standard low level party with a couple of spellcasters could actually have a reasonable chance of taking a low level WtW down. However, with the 3.5 version it's of course a nuclear tag sort of situation (since if WtW gets anything off, that anything is going to demolish a low level party) and martials need not apply. PF WtW isn't that bad since it's vulnerable to e.g. Alchemist's Fires from even martial characters so everyone has something to do, and it doesn't get CL 20 spell-likes or 100 damage touch attacks. It's still pretty scary on low levels though and less experienced players might be FUBAR'd.

[Cosi]

As has been noted, it's pretty absurdly deadly at low levels. At higher (but still pre-epic) levels, it's beatable if people are reasonably well optimized. It would not be unreasonable to have a vermin-based campaign where the final boss was a Worm That Walks at somewhere around 15th level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I am definitely seeing this now.

My thought process was basically this: "This monster is so cool, I wish it were available to use pre-Epic. Oh wait, it's only CR+3 and not limited to Epic base creatures, is it maybe available to use pre-Epic? I'll ask the Playground!"

Admittedly I didn't even look at the template's granted abilities very in-depth; I probably could have answered my own question if I had just looked more carefully. My bad, stupid question, I had a dumb. It's definitely lying about only being CR+3 (except probably at actual epic levels.)

I should be able to just backport Pathfinder's Worm that Walks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/worm-that-walks-cr-2/) with no problems though, right? Basically the same deal but more correctly CRed, right?
I mean, what are the non-mechanical hallmarks of the Worm that Walks? It has gross insect-magic, it can engulf you, and it can discorporate and slither away. Easy enough to keep those things and toss the rest.

[flappeercraft]

Completely unbalanced. I would reccomend making it a houserule that you need to be at least X level to become one unless you're going for a cheese campaign where these things are supposed to happen.