Divine Metamagic Abuser

[Dagroth]

Going off an older thread, I'm looking to build a Level 12 (66,000xp) character who can abuse the heck out of DMM & Knowledge Devotion. I don't want to rely on the iffy RAW reading of Extra Turning, but I don't see a way to get Rebuke Dragons, Channel Incarnum & Turn Undead on one build since both Rebuke Dragons & Channel Uncarnum are Cleric ACFs.

Also, we play with LA buy-off so an LA+1 (bought off) would be level 11, but only 3k away from 12; while an LA+2 (bought off) would be level 10, but only 4k away from 11. So if there's a strong enough reason to come in a level or two lower (yet catch up fairly quickly due to greater amounts of XP), I'll consider it.

Start with Human

Level 1 - Human Paragon 1.
Use Bonus Feat for Able Learner
Get Extend Spell
Level 2 - Cloistered Cleric 1. (For Rebuke Dragons)
Get Knowledge Domain, convert to Devotion. Get Planning Domain (convert to Persist Spell because you've already got Extend Spell), Get Undeath Domain for Extra Turning.
Level 3 - Human Paragon 2.
Get Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell)
Bonus Feat: Extra turning?
Level 4 - Human Paragon 3.
Level 5 - Church Inquisitor 1. (for better hit points & skill points)
Level 6 - Death Delver 1. (for Rebuke Undead)
Level Feat:
Level 7-9 - Church Inquisitor 2-4.
Level Feat:
Level 10+ - Sacred Exorcist 1+. (for Turn Undead)

With a 18 Cha and 4 Extra Turning Feats (using 6th & 9th for it), I'd have Rebuke Dragons 23 times, Turn Undead 23 times & Rebuke Undead 7 times

53 turn attemps means 7 Persisted Spells.

If I can convince my DM to allow the Rebuke Dragons ACF to apply to Death Delver, then I can go with an Azurin Cleric and get Channel Incarnum 22 times instead of Rebuke Undead. 66 turn attempts means 9 Persisted Spells.

I threw in the Human Paragon because I will want all Knowledge Skills and Human Paragon also gives a Bonus Feat, Casting Progression for 2 levels & a Stat Bonus.

Human is important for Able Learner, of course.

[Zancloufer]

Cloistered Cleric gains all Knowledge skills as class skills, so you don't need Human Paragon for that. Going Cloistered Cleric for all three levels that you would normally take Human Paragon for would net you +1 CL, 6 extra skill points, +3 to all Knowledge checks and better fort saves.

The only really appealing thing about Human Paragon is the extra feat and the +2 to a stat. Not to mention since you have LA-Buy off you could take a +1 LA race instead which would probably net you some nice bonuses (Assimiar isn't bad if you have LA to burn). Only real downside to this route is lack of feats, but it doesn't seem like you are starved for them with this build.

[Dagroth]

Cloistered Cleric gains all Knowledge skills as class skills, so you don't need Human Paragon for that. Going Cloistered Cleric for all three levels that you would normally take Human Paragon for would net you +1 CL, 6 extra skill points, +3 to all Knowledge checks and better fort saves.

The only really appealing thing about Human Paragon is the extra feat and the +2 to a stat. Not to mention since you have LA-Buy off you could take a +1 LA race instead which would probably net you some nice bonuses (Assimiar isn't bad if you have LA to burn). Only real downside to this route is lack of feats, but it doesn't seem like you are starved for them with this build.

Well, he only gets all Knowledge Skills as class skills if you don't convert the Knowledge Domain Granted Power to Knowledge Devotion. Know: Arcana (highly important), Know: Dungeoneering, Know: Nature & Know: Local (Humanoids are covered by this, which many forget) are going to lag behind unless they are class skills at some point so that Able Learner can keep them up.

Which brings me to the reason to be a Human (or Azurin, or Silver-brow Human, or Changeling). Able Learner is pretty dang important to keep all the knowledge skills up.

I see your point about skill points, so Cloistered Cleric 1 should probably be first level.

BTW, you mention +3 to all Knowledge checks. Where does that come from?

[Zancloufer]

BTW, you mention +3 to all Knowledge checks. Where does that come from?

Cloistered Cleric gets something akin to Bardic Knowledge in that they add their class level to all Knowledge skills. Also why convert to Knowledge Devotion? I mean you could just take the feat instead if you want instead of converting the bonus from the Domain to it. Really depends on if you gain those Knowledges as skills I suppose.

[Esprit15]

I'm more partial to Archivist with a dip into Death Delver and Cloistered Cleric, if I'm intending to do metamagic abuse. Sure, I'm behind two caster levels, but I also have the widest amount of spells to pick for extending and persisting, and I'll still have 9th level spells by the end of things. Also, make sure to pick up rods of extend (lesser, regular, and greater), rather than use DMM Extend. Saves a lot of Turn/Rebuke uses for DMM Persist.

From there, you can choose to either have a combat style, or just load up on Extra Turning.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Where's your Spell domain for (Greater) Anyspell? Use pearls of power to cast them as many times as you want, so you can DMM: Persist Shield, Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, etc.

[Troacctid]

Well, he only gets all Knowledge Skills as class skills if you don't convert the Knowledge Domain Granted Power to Knowledge Devotion. Know: Arcana (highly important), Know: Dungeoneering, Know: Nature & Know: Local (Humanoids are covered by this, which many forget) are going to lag behind unless they are class skills at some point so that Able Learner can keep them up.
So, obvious solution, don't trade it for Knowledge Devotion. Yeah? *shrug*

[Dagroth]

Cloistered Cleric gets something akin to Bardic Knowledge in that they add their class level to all Knowledge skills. Also why convert to Knowledge Devotion? I mean you could just take the feat instead if you want instead of converting the bonus from the Domain to it. Really depends on if you gain those Knowledges as skills I suppose.

Cloistered Cleric gets this:

Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard’s bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric’s class level in place of the bard level.

Bardic Knowledge says this:

Bardic Knowledge: A bard picks up a lot of stray knowledge while wandering the land and learning stories from other bards. He may make a special bardic knowledge check with a bonus equal to his bard level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he gains a +2 bonus on this check.)
A successful bardic knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. The DM can determine the Difficulty Class of the check by referring to the table above.

Bardic Knowledge isn't based on the actual Knowledge Skills at all, unfortunately.


I'm more partial to Archivist with a dip into Death Delver and Cloistered Cleric, if I'm intending to do metamagic abuse. Sure, I'm behind two caster levels, but I also have the widest amount of spells to pick for extending and persisting, and I'll still have 9th level spells by the end of things. Also, make sure to pick up rods of extend (lesser, regular, and greater), rather than use DMM Extend. Saves a lot of Turn/Rebuke uses for DMM Persist.

From there, you can choose to either have a combat style, or just load up on Extra Turning.

DMM Extend would require a separate Feat (You have to take DMM separately for each Metamagic feat you want to use DMM with).

Archivist is a good idea though... wouldn't need Human Paragon, since Archivist gets all Knowledge Skills as class skills. Plus, Death Delver uses Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell and Bard Spells are also Divine spells. The class abilities of Archivist are good enough to skip Church Inquisitor, too.

Only thing I don't like is that spell casting keys of Int, but bonus spells key of Wisdom. :smallconfused:


Where's your Spell domain for (Greater) Anyspell? Use pearls of power to cast them as many times as you want, so you can DMM: Persist Shield, Wraithstrike, Draconic Polymorph, Ray Deflection, Greater Invisibility, etc.

Didn't pick up the Spell Domain because Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning. There's some great spells for improving my personal combat ability, though relying on Pearls of Power is a pain considering I'm only starting with Level 12 WBL.


So, obvious solution, don't trade it for Knowledge Devotion. Yeah? *shrug*

Trading Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion saves a feat... and Knowledge Devotion is perhaps one of the best combat feats in the game... even if you have only a few ranks in the knowledge skills.

[Twurps]

Away from books right now, so I can't look it up. If I remember correctly though, you can swap knowledge domain for knowledge devotion at any time (not just when you get the domain). So since your starting at lvl 12, you can profit from 12 levels of knowledge domain, before swapping it out for the devotion feat at lvl 12.

[VisitingDaGulag]

DMM isn't that strong. The furthest it will go is via persist. If you blow most of your slots then you're just a highly buffed semi-caster. It's a lot of work though. Depending on what spells you like to use in combat, it is not that much more powerful from just being judicious with your buff timings.

As optimized as that is, it's not abusive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Didn't pick up the Spell Domain because Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning. There's some great spells for improving my personal combat ability, though relying on Pearls of Power is a pain considering I'm only starting with Level 12 WBL.

You don't need Pearls of Power, they just make the Spell domain that much better. At level 12, you can Greater Anyspell: Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6) all day (large size, +14 natural armor, Str 45 with Divine Power, Dex 16, Con 31, Dazing Blow), plus Anyspell: Wraithstrike all day and power attack two handed for your full BAB because you'll ignore your opponents' armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. Get a 3rd level Pearl of Power for 9k to also have Shield on all day, and combined with (Extended) Greater Luminous Armor, (Lesser Rod of Extended) Magic Vestment on both effects, and a Monk's Belt, you'll have an AC of 45+Wis bonus.



DMM isn't that strong. The furthest it will go is via persist.

Persist isn't the upper limit to DMM abuse.

Level 21 or an old enough Dragonwrought Kobold, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, DMM: Heighten Spell, Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), sandals made from stone slabs, and Holy Word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm).

[Dagroth]

Polymorph stuff still confuses the heck out of me... I'll have to start a new thread concerning it, but you're making a very good case.

Of course, if I go Archivist, I can just get Divine Scrolls of Anyspell & Greater Anyspell as part of my WBL and stick 'em in my prayer book. (Yet another good reason to go Archivist!)

So...

Archivist 1, Cloistered Cleric 1 (Rebuke Dragons, Planning Domain & Undeath Domain), Archivist 5, Death Dealer 1 (Rebuke Undead), Archivist 1, Sacred Exorcist 1 (Turn Undead)
Level 1 Feats: Extend Spell & Able Learner
Level 2 gets Persist Spell because we've already got Extend Spell
Level 3, 6 & 9, Extra Turning
Dispel Evil is Pal 4, Dismissal is Clr 4, so we only need 7 levels of Archivist

Hard to find a race that has Cleric as their Favored Class though, which is why we go with Human.

Other than Saint (which does not work for this character idea), anyone have a good LA +1 or +2 template? I'd considered Lumi for the Race, but 2 Outsider Levels is seriously painful for this build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anyspell and Greater Anyspell allow you to prepare a wizard spell in your domain spell slot, so non-Clerics don't gain any benefit from casting it.

Draconic Polymorph is in the Draconomicon, it can be made Persistent and it gives you an extra +8 Str and +2 Con.


Rules of the Game articles on wizards.com

Polymorphing (Part One) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a)
Polymorphing (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a)
Polymorphing (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a)
Polymorphing (Part Four) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a)
Polymorphing Revisited (Part One) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a)
Polymorphing Revisited (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060509a)
Polymorphing Revisited (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)
Polymorphing Revisited (Part Four) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a)

Edit: Regarding LA, Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) from XPH or Shadow Creature in Lords of Madness would be my go-to choices.

In this case, Shadow Creature wouldn't lose Shadow Blend when polymorphed, so that's probably your best choice. Put a bone or wood pendant on a string, put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on the pendant, and cast Extended Deeper Darkness on that. At your current level that will last twenty-four years due to the Unguent, and when that's exposed your Shadow Blend will be active, which basically gives you unbeatable invisibility since opponents will never have line of sight to you. Hold the pendant in your mouth to block the darkness effect, when you need it you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, and it will fall back into place hanging around your neck.

[Dagroth]

Anyspell and Greater Anyspell allow you to prepare a wizard spell in your domain spell slot, so non-Clerics don't gain any benefit from casting it.

Well, that would be a good reason for an Archivist to get a level of Church Inquisitor... :smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

Only thing I don't like is that spell casting keys of Int, but bonus spells key of Wisdom. :smallconfused:


There's a feat for that. IIRC.

[Dagroth]

There's a feat for that. IIRC.

The only one anything like that I know of is Serenity from Dragon Magazine, which makes all of a Paladin's abilities key off Wisdom instead of Charisma.

[Rebel7284]

Academic Priest (or Dynamic Priest) are the feats I usually see mentioned for changing spellcasting stats, but as I recall, due to weird licensing issues, it's not from a WotC licensed book.

There is also playing an Illumian with particular sigils, but that makes Azurin sub levels hard. Perhaps changeling trickery and a permissive DM?

[Dagroth]

Academic Priest (or Dynamic Priest) are the feats I usually see mentioned for changing spellcasting stats, but as I recall, due to weird licensing issues, it's not from a WotC licensed book.

There is also playing an Illumian with particular sigils, but that makes Azurin sub levels hard. Perhaps changeling trickery and a permissive DM?

Azurin Cleric Substitution is only needed if I can convince my DM to allow Death Delver to Rebuke Dragons instead of Undead. Otherwise, I can just take Rebuke Dragons with my Cleric level.

Academic Priest & Dynamic Priest are from the Dragonlance setting, at least according to my Google-Fu. Unfortunately, they are Feats (want to save those for more Extra Turning) and they only works on 1 Divine Spellcasting Class each time you take one.

Dynamic Priest is good because it converts spellcasting to Cha based, getting rid of the need for Wisdom... Sadly, that takes away the value of a Monk's Belt (unless I can get a custom magic item for Battledancer's Belt) which is useful when polymorphing/shapechanging.