Prerequisites.

[Town_Drunk]

Let's face it, in order to qualify for good prestige classes, you need to take a s#!t feat. Let's use Frenzied Berserker as an example. Intimidating rage (Charisma of 11) and Destructive rage (maybe not so much) are both awful for the character I want to build. So, my question is, can I retrain those feats after I take a level in the class, and still retain the abilities I would otherwise gain, or would they be nulled until I got those feats again?

This is 3.5 Edition, as to 0-out confusion.

[Ruethgar]

IIRC, no you can't. I'm pretty sure for Complete Warrior and one other book, no longer qualifying for the PrC means you don't get the abilities. Other PrCs from other books are another matter. Some say that rule is supposed to be a new general rule, but that's not really supported by how RAW is processed.

[OldTrees1]

Depends on 2 things:
1) Your DM. "Lose Prereqs -> Lose Benefits" is a common general houserule.
2) The book the prestige class came from. Two of the complete series rules that you lose the benefits of a prestige class if you lose the prerequisites. Due to the RAW about scope of authority, those 2 books only affect the classes they contain. Bad News: One of those 2 books is Complete Warrior (so Frenzied Berserker falls under its scope).


So go ask your DM about how they houserule the retraining of prerequisites. Also ask the DM to evaluate the prerequisites for the prestige class in case they want to increase/decrease them.


Sidnote: Frenzied Berserker is rarely an ideal fit for a concept, the forum might be able to identify some alternatives for you to have available if you wanted such help and gave us more insight about the concept.

[BananaNomNom]

could always take the feats then pay for a Physic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)

[flappeercraft]

could always take the feats then pay for a Physic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm)

True but then again, you would lose the prerequisites which depending on DM might take away your abilities. Most do it that way, I would just reccomend finding a way to get more feats instead like Taint, Flaws, etc.

[Necroticplague]

Let's face it, in order to qualify for good prestige classes, you need to take a s#!t feat. Let's use Frenzied Berserker as an example. Intimidating rage (Charisma of 11) and Destructive rage (maybe not so much) are both awful for the character I want to build. So, my question is, can I retrain those feats after I take a level in the class, and still retain the abilities I would otherwise gain, or would they be nulled until I got those feats again?

This is 3.5 Edition, as to 0-out confusion.

They would be nulled out if you removed the feats.


Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

So you can't retrain or psyref the feats away, you're just gonna have to soak up the feat loss.

[Cirrylius]

A custom magic item could get you those feats, at the risk of being stolen/suppressed. There's precedent. Plus, the sidequest of design->components->ceremony serves as a pretty good-faith substitute sacrifice of cash, character/player time, and circumstantial vulnerability, instead of the usual Feat tax.

[Manyasone]

My two cents considering this oft lamented debate is as follows, and it's a matter of language (english not being my first language).
Most Prestige Classes use the REQUIREMENT (lit.a thing that is needed) meaning that you are required to fulfill the whatevers to take the PrC and to keep taking it and use abilities from it.
Prerequisite (lit. something you need to take before you can be eligible), key here being the PRE, meaning that once you have it, you're free to retrain.
I believe ToB uses this difference concerning maneuvers

[OldTrees1]

My two cents considering this oft lamented debate is as follows, and it's a matter of language (english not being my first language).
Most Prestige Classes use the REQUIREMENT (lit.a thing that is needed) meaning that you are required to fulfill the whatevers to take the PrC and to keep taking it and use abilities from it.
Prerequisite (lit. something you need to take before you can be eligible), key here being the PRE, meaning that once you have it, you're free to retrain.
I believe ToB uses this difference concerning maneuvers

The Pre(before) in Prerequisite modifies Requisite(a thing necessary) which literally means "a thing necessary before". As in before you get the next thing, you must have this prerequisite. If you do not have this prerequisite, then you do not get the next thing.

However "before" can be used sequentially or temporally.
Sequentially: The prerequisites must be in the list in front of the next thing
ex - Knowing a language is a prerequisite of speaking in that language. If I forget the language I lose the ability to speak in that language.
Temporally: The prerequisites must have once existed before the next thing exists
ex - Going to the car is a prerequisite for me going to class, however I do not need to be in the car during or after class.

Typically prerequisite is used in the sequentially sense. When they say Algebra is a prerequisite for Calculus, they mean you still need Algebra in order to be able to use Calculus. Some exceptions exist(As a native English speaker, I know English is a flawed language) but generally it is meant sequentially.

To make it even worse: The Authors of D&D were not consistent.

[nyjastul69]

The question is how does the DM view this:


Prestige Classes
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class. Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

Is it the first and only first level, or the first and all the other levels? Strictly speaking prerequisites only need to let for the first level, not any other levels. Of course CW, which has FB, is from a book that changed that particular rule. That rule shouldn't apply to any other book, unless your DM thinks otherwise. This really is a 'ask your DM' question.

[Troacctid]

Intent is for you not to do this. Actual rules text contradicts itself. Expect table variation.

[Particle_Man]

What happens when a Dragon Disciple gets to level 10, btw? :smallbiggrin:

Actually, now I am thinking of a party that is going to stop a master assassin by going back in time (or using a wish?) and saving the life of the person the assassin originally "killed for no other reason than to join the assassins", thus retroactively taking away the master assassin's death attack and poison use abilities. ;)

[OldTrees1]

What happens when a Dragon Disciple gets to level 10, btw? :smallbiggrin:

Actually, now I am thinking of a party that is going to stop a master assassin by going back in time (or using a wish?) and saving the life of the person the assassin originally "killed for no other reason than to join the assassins", thus retroactively taking away the master assassin's death attack and poison use abilities. ;)

You ask your DM.


The assassin example depends a lot on the time travel model your DM is using.

I would rule it as the would be assassin would know that they were not accepted into the assassins and thus would go kill someone else. This would delay their entry into the guild by 1 month. Each foiled attempt would make them more and more impatient (use only half the time) until finally they were so impatient that they outright failed forever. Of course, you then would need to defend why you went back in time to prevent the non assassin from joining the assassins when everyone knows they never succeeded in joining the assassins.

[Dagroth]

In general, it's much like if a Paladin breaks the code they lose their Paladin abilities.

If a Frenzied Berserker forgets how to be intimidating while he's raging, then he can't frenzy any more either... since being able to frenzy requires being intimidating while raging.

It's just like Rainbow Servant requires being able to cast 3rd level spells. If you have 5 levels of Wizard, you qualify. If you gain 5 levels of Rainbow Servant, you can retrain 4 of your Wizard levels and you'll still be able to cast 3rd level spells... so you're okay.

[Coretron03]

In general, it's much like if a Paladin breaks the code they lose their Paladin abilities.

If a Frenzied Berserker forgets how to be intimidating while he's raging, then he can't frenzy any more either... since being able to frenzy requires being intimidating while raging.

It's just like Rainbow Servant requires being able to cast 3rd level spells. If you have 5 levels of Wizard, you qualify. If you gain 5 levels of Rainbow Servant, you can retrain 4 of your Wizard levels and you'll still be able to cast 3rd level spells... so you're okay.

Its only fair a barbarin have to be intimidating to hit stuff hard with power attack when wizards have to suffer 4 level of famliar progression to gain clric spells of course.

[Dagroth]

Its only fair a barbarin have to be intimidating to hit stuff hard with power attack when wizards have to suffer 4 level of famliar progression to gain clric spells of course.

Hey, let's not even get into the fairness of classes in D&D... otherwise we'll be here all year.

[Stewzors]

In my group if a PrC has feat taxes that are just terrible we tend to negotiate an alternative which is thematically appropriate without the unnecessary baggage.

Obvs its a pretty big houserule to use alternative feats that may not be optimal but still fit the theme and are better (opinion) than what they are replacing/forcing on you etc but it may be worth discussing with your DM/Group to potentially take something else instead?