Dual Wield Hand Crossbow Build

[creakyaccordion]

Making a character that Dual-Wields hand crossbows is usually scoffed at because of the nature of reloading it, but I feel like there must be something I'm missing because it seems really close to being amazing. You need Quick Draw, Rapid Reload and of course Two-Weapon Fighting, but I can't seem to find a feat or a rule that fixes one issue with it. Rapid Reload reduces the reload action for each of your hand crossbows to a free action, Quick Draw makes drawing them a free action, but sheathing is a move action. Do you know of any feats or rules that affect sheathing time? Or even that most DMs would agree that it seems silly to draw a weapon as a free action but not be able to sheath one as a free action as well?

If the sheathing issue is solved, you can shoot both crossbows at just a -2 every round, especially if you're mounted.

[Dagroth]

Making a character that Dual-Wields hand crossbows is usually scoffed at because of the nature of reloading it, but I feel like there must be something I'm missing because it seems really close to being amazing. You need Quick Draw, Rapid Reload and of course Two-Weapon Fighting, but I can't seem to find a feat or a rule that fixes one issue with it. Rapid Reload reduces the reload action for each of your hand crossbows to a free action, Quick Draw makes drawing them a free action, but sheathing is a move action. Do you know of any feats or rules that affect sheathing time? Or even that most DMs would agree that it seems silly to draw a weapon as a free action but not be able to sheath one as a free action as well?

If the sheathing issue is solved, you can shoot both crossbows at just a -2 every round, especially if you're mounted.

Dropping is a Free Action... so if you have a bunch of them, and don't mind picking them up after every battle...

[Deophaun]

The trick is to use Sleight of Hand. If you take a -20 on your SoH check, you can hide an object as a free action. Great, because you don't care about it being found. The bad news is that retrieving a hidden item is a Standard action, which goes back to move with Quick Draw. But, you can SoH it out again as a free action with a -20 to the check. The bad news is that you need to hit a DC 20 to successfully grab the item. That means you effectively need to reliably hit a DC 40, which probably means investing in Master Pickpocket from City of Stormreach.

An alternative? Ask about animating a pair of goats foot levers for your weapons, and let them use their actions to reload.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hand crossbow focus from Dotu is what you want. Let me peel through my builds.

Quick question, do you use fractional BAB?
Kalashtar

1: martial rogue 1 kung fu genius, point blank shot
2: swashbuckler 1 weapon finesse
3: swashbuckler 2 hand crossbow focus
4: swashbuckler 3
5: fighter 1 two weapon fighting
6: Monk 1 unorthodox flurry, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist
7: Monk kalashtar ACF 2 psychic shot
8: fist of dol Quor
9: fist of dol Quor crossbow sniper

[Deophaun]

Hand crossbow focus from Dotu is what you want.
Does nothing to help free up a hand for reloading. It is better than rapid reload for hand crossbows, though.

[creakyaccordion]

Mage Hand can't be used to reload, correct? Because if it could all the build needs is Hand of the Mage and then it's set.

EDIT: Just realized, if you have three hands or more you don't have to worry about sheathing at all, do you?

[daremetoidareyo]

Does nothing to help free up a hand for reloading. It is better than rapid reload for hand crossbows, though.

Darn.

Although, perform juggling might actually help here, if you're reloading 2-3 times per turn, drop the crossbow as a free action to free up a hand, catch it after your free action reload.

[Efrate]

There was a TO build on the old wizard boards called Gun-Fu that might be worth looking at. I have the old link but archive instead of community isn't returning the site, and haven't been able to snag it on the wayback machine but I have no idea how to use it.

Edit 2: Swordsaged.

[MisterKaws]

Put one Wand Sheath in each of the Crossbows and insert an Eternal Wand of Girallon's Blessing in each. You can just UMD them and get extra hands for all your needs.

Also: Gun-Fu (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471342-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Gun-Fu-(Tempest_Stormwind)).

[CharonsHelper]

I don't think that hand crossbows are supposed to be a primary build. They're there for TWF melee rogues to have out for the first round. If they beat an enemy's initiative they can use them (with just Quick Draw at level 8+) get a full attack with SA instead of running out, getting one melee SA, and then being overextended.

Not being able to make an effective hand crossbow build is WAI. (Working As Intended)

[Darrin]

The Sleight of Hand rules don't really cover pulling out a hidden weapon. We have to extrapolate that it's similar to "lift a small object from a person". A hand crossbow is a small object by definition (one-handed weapons are one size smaller than the creature wielding them), and there's nothing in the rules that say you don't count as a person. However, you're probably going to need a favorable DM's Call to pull it off more than once. Lightning Thief (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse) might be worth a look for tips on optimizing Sleight of Hand.

Hands-free loading:

Quick Loading property (+1 enhancement, MIC).
Ghostly reload spell (Races of the Dragon).
Spare Hand (12000 GP, MIC).
Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk).
Kimono of Storing (20000 GP, Oriental Adventures).
Unseen servant/Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) (2000 GP).
Dragon Tail + Prehensile Tail.
Girallon's blessing + permanency.
Totemist 2 for the Girallon Arms soulmeld.
Polymorph shenanigans.
Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG) or Fleshshifter Armor (13160 GP, Book of Vile Darkness)
Arms of the Naga (56000 GP, Savage Species). Not worth it.
Mighty Arms graft (1000 GP, Faiths of Eberron). It's not clear if you have to chop off your existing arms... if not, then this is the cheapest way to get an extra pair of arms.
Taloned Arm (34000 GP, Races of the Dragon). There are other grafts out there, but this one does't have any significant drawbacks.


Maybe later today I can rework one of my Crossbow Sniper Swift Hunter builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20647108&postcount=3)... if flaws and LA buyoff are allowed, then Diopsid might work.

[Uncle Pine]

The trick to reload and firing two crossbows of any type in the same round is to combine Hand Crossbow Focus, aptitude weapons and two gloves of the master strategists.

[ShurikVch]

Can anybody tell me: what's so good about dual-wield Hand Crossbows?
I mean - nobody attempting to dual-wield bows, slings, or even blowguns.
Then why the Hand Crossbows?

Also, non-magical ranged combat already hamstrung in 3.5
Why to add TWF penalties on top of this?
Are two extra attacks - with crippling BAB penalties and at the cost of three feats - really worth it?

It's especially puzzling because of Hand Crossbow's free action reload: wouldn't it better to shoot less bolts with more accuracy than pretend to be a machine gun which can spent crate worth of ammo without actually hitting anything?

[Darrin]

Can anybody tell me: what's so good about dual-wield Hand Crossbows?

It looks freakin' awesome.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9f/a1/bf/9fa1bfd2ddccc45208c8343f2eaf796e.jpg

Presumably, if you're doing some sort of precision damage, there may be a trade-off for more damage at the expense of some accuracy.

But mostly:


http://d3strategyguide.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Demon-Hunter-Dual-Wielding-Crossbows.png

http://8gmwp015fo-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2014/05/DH-2.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2b/7d/c6/2b7dc689ac6a7acd3f1c105a95ef9e3c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9RwHeDg.png

http://im.ziffdavisinternational.com/ign_br/screenshot/default/screen-shot-2015-11-12-at-24254-pm_6z29.jpg

[Uncle Pine]

I mean - nobody attempting to dual-wield bows
Ahem.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warriorsofmyth/images/2/2d/Iw_arrow_demon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131123055811

But mostly, what Darrin said.

[ShurikVch]

Ahem.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warriorsofmyth/images/2/2d/Iw_arrow_demon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131123055811By some reason, I can't see the picture
But I see you attempted to post picture of Arrow Demon from Monster Manual III
Yes, multiple arms allow to dual-wield bows, but:
1) ECL. Arrow Demon starts at ECL 19, Thri-kreen - 5, Dolgrim - 3
2) You're a monster, and can't hide it


It looks freakin' awesome.So, in short - you sacrificing practicality, dignity, and common sense to abstract "rule of cool"? :smallsigh:

[CozJa]

So, in short - you sacrificing practicality, dignity, and common sense to abstract "rule of cool"? :smallsigh:

Who needs all those silly things when you are... actually... COOL?:smallcool:

[Particle_Man]

Maybe the much abused Leadership feat, this time to have legions of followers whose only purpose in life is to ready actions in order to hand you loaded hand crossbows when you need them? :smallbiggrin:

[MisterKaws]

By some reason, I can't see the picture
But I see you attempted to post picture of Arrow Demon from Monster Manual III
Yes, multiple arms allow to dual-wield bows, but:
1) ECL. Arrow Demon starts at ECL 19, Thri-kreen - 5, Dolgrim - 3
2) You're a monster, and can't hide it

So, in short - you sacrificing practicality, dignity, and common sense to abstract "rule of cool"? :smallsigh:

Antropomorphic Giant Octopus: 2 reasonably good HD for a front-liner, no LA, good attributes for melee, and quad-wielding of Hand Crossbows. Also, they also have their own civilizations, and would be probably welcome in most aquatic cities.

[Particle_Man]

Thri-keen could be fun too.

[Celestia]

Can anybody tell me: what's so good about dual-wield Hand Crossbows?
I mean - nobody attempting to dual-wield bows, slings, or even blowguns.
Now I want to make a build focusing entirely on dual wielding blowguns. I'll call it The Blowhard. :smalltongue:

[CharonsHelper]

Now I want to make a build focusing entirely on dual wielding blowguns. I'll call it The Blowhard. :smalltongue:

And make it a tengu - since they don't have lips!

[Darrin]

So, in short - you sacrificing practicality, dignity, and common sense to abstract "rule of cool"? :smallsigh:

Yeah, about that...


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e315/xaerostrike/mwowp005_1920_1080newAlteredHelloKitty500.png

GUILTY. OH, SO *VERY* GUILTY.

[Soranar]

I did one a while back but the feat tax is prohibitive.

The trick to reload was this:

there's a magic item (waist slot) that's an extra hand that can only hold things.

transfer 1 crossbow from your real hand to that one, reload both crossbows with your free hand, take the crossbow back and shoot.

with hand crossbow focus (counts as rapid reload) that's all free actions

[Vizzerdrix]

By some reason, I can't see the picture
But I see you attempted to post picture of Arrow Demon from Monster Manual III
Yes, multiple arms allow to dual-wield bows, but:
1) ECL. Arrow Demon starts at ECL 19, Thri-kreen - 5, Dolgrim - 3
2) You're a monster, and can't hide it
L
So, in short - you sacrificing practicality, dignity, and common sense to abstract "rule of cool"? :smallsigh:

Obah blessed is +2 for 2 extra arms and +3 for 4 extra, along with free multiweapon fighting feat. Im thinking about tossing it on a nezumi with prehensile tail for quad hand xbows.

[daremetoidareyo]

Diopsid is also an option.

[Gruftzwerg]

sheeting:
You just need shoulder straps for your hand crossbows. Than you can drop em as free action, problem solved ;)

Have a look at the "double hand crossbow" from the Kobold web enhancement.
Could further improve the build.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

[Flickerdart]

Ghostly reload will automatically reload your bows, up to ten times. The Quick Loading property will give you a 100-bolt magazine you can just reload after the battle.

[DEMON]

Yeah, about that...


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e315/xaerostrike/mwowp005_1920_1080newAlteredHelloKitty500.png

GUILTY. OH, SO *VERY* GUILTY.


Would be even more awesome on a Mad Cat :)

Hello Crazy Marauder Catapult Kitty...

[ShurikVch]

The whole point of having two guns at once is either faster reload, or possibility to shoot 2 targets at once
The first point is negated by Free Action reload - which wouldn't be available if all your arms occupied
The second is just don't possible in turn-based gameplay - shots are always go one after another (and Manyshot is limited to "the same target")

Anyway, for me - single Hellfire Crossbow is way cooler than any 2 usual crossbows


Antropomorphic Giant Octopus: 2 reasonably good HD for a front-liner, no LAUnfortunately, they're aquatic - thus can't breath air

good attributes for melee-2 Con

and quad-wielding of Hand Crossbows.No quad-wielding for them - 2 of those 8 tentacles are feet, and of the rest 6 is only 2 are with hands
So, you will need to blow 42000 gp on Gloves of Man - to just use those 4 Hand Crossbows - without ability to actually reload them (unless you blow 42000 gp more for second pair)

Also, they also have their own civilizations:smallconfused: Where's it?


Obah blessed is +2 for 2 extra arms and +3 for 4 extra, along with free multiweapon fighting feat. Im thinking about tossing it on a nezumi with prehensile tail for quad hand xbows.Yes, Obah-Blessed is OK - except it's setting-specific (and from Dungeon adventure)



Now I want to make a build focusing entirely on dual wielding blowguns. I'll call it The Blowhard. :smalltongue:OK, why not?
Go ahead!
At least, blowguns are way more compact than crossbows (especially - medieval crossbows)
If mouthpick is applicable to blowguns, you may try even triple-wield them
Note of Sand Blaster from Monster Manual III - it's, essentially, an oversized blowgun
Also, Blowhard is a feat in Savage Species (Unfortunately, required Huge size. Maybe, Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)...)

[Deophaun]

The whole point of having two guns at once is either faster reload, or possibility to shoot 2 targets at once
Actually, IRL the point of having two guns at once is to miss a lot. Having two guns of the same kind in general is just to negate the need to reload.

Meanwhile, IG, the point is to use TWF to get additional attacks.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, IRL the point of having two guns at once is to miss a lot.
Something something suppressive fire? :smallamused: