whats wrong with the monk?

[Shinizak]

I know this topic has been covered a million times, but what exactly is mechanically wrong with the class? What needs to be addressed make it a viable option? What role in the party make up does it need to fill?

I want to do a bit of research for a game I'm making, and knowing this sort of thing would be a BIG help.

[Arkhios]

Are we talking in a particular rules set and edition, or in general? A lot of the further discussion would depend on that as monks are various things in different rules.

[Pauly]

There are two main problems in the D&D universe.

1) It is a non- equipment using class in a world full of magic equipment. Yeah you can get some gadgets but not the magic weapons and magic armors that other classes access. And if you do get something magical it tends to be 'monk only' which is limiting to party dynamics.

2) It fills a niche role, not a core role. The core roles being tank/magic attacker/magic healer and lock picker. So it is like the bard, a character type people choose after the core roles have been covered.

The other problem in some editions of D&D has been that the monk starts very weak compared to other characters but at high levels has incredibly powerful innate abilities.

[Shinizak]

Are we talking in a particular rules set and edition, or in general? A lot of the further discussion would depend on that as monks are various things in different rules.

I'm talking 3.5/pathfinder. But general works too

[Shinizak]

There are two main problems in the D&D universe.

1) It isanon equipment using class in a world full of equipment..Yeah you can get some gadgets but not the magic weapons and magic armors that other classes access.

2) It fills a niche role, not a corerole. The core D:smallyuk:

What is the niche role that it fills? Actually, just so I'm on the same page, what are the core roles also?

[Jerrykhor]

I have a friend playing monk in my LMoP campaign, and i think they are decent. In combat, they are nothing special, pretty impressive damage but dependant on dice rolls. Once i saw him miss 3 attacks in a row. He's good to have around due to his high Wisdom, but i think a Cleric is better, because he doesnt bring anything that a fighter can't bring, and his AC is mediocre for a front-liner. Some pretty useless fluff like running on water and verticle surfaces, I've never seen him use Deflect Missile because he has high initiative and closes the gap with quickly with his fast movement. He also only ever uses Flurry of Blows, and it totally sucks when it misses and wastes his Ki point that is already so limited.

In most fights, he gets hit a lot and sometimes nearly goes down. I think that feels very wrong. Have you seen those shaolin/kung fu movies? Those guys are good at dodging stuff. I know they get Evasion at 7th level, but they need something to help them dodge attacks.

Also, their save proficiency should be Dex and Wis, not Str and Dex.

[Pauly]

What is the niche role that it fills? Actually, just so I'm on the same page, what are the core roles also?

Sorry made a snafu in my post. I edited the original.

To expand a little further at what point would a party ask 'We needed a monk to solve this problem?'
Physical fights get solved by fighter/barbarian/paladin
Sneaky situations are solved by rogues/rangers
Traps and doors are solved by rogues/wizard/cleric
Magical offense is handled by wizard/sorceror/Druid
Magical defence is solved by wizard/sorceror/cleric
Magical healing is solved by Cleric/Druid

You only pick monk or bard after you already have the stereotype of fighter - rogue - cleric - wizard tpes already in your party

[Coretron03]

Depends on edition. Assuming Dnd, the 3.5 monk suffered from non-synergetic class feature (unable to use movement speed increase and flurry at the same time) lack of frontlining abilities (no full bab, d8 hitdie, poor AC, flurry of misses) and they are MAD so they have low ability scores (Need con for hp, Wis for AC, dex for AC and init, str for damage and to hit) along with some weak class abilities (slow fall is weaker then feather fall, a first level spell) and can't be a skill monkey (4+int skills and are too mad to get good int) making them not really have a role in your average adventuring party. But if you use umd which was totally intended for monks as its a cross class skill and they have no use for Cha they become capable of killing wizards!

If 5e, they seem decent to me with dex to hit and damage on unarmed strikes and able to full attack and move and extra atacks from level 1 with no to hit penalty but I haven't played one.

Pathfinder, they are sorta better in core with some nice changes (full bab on flurry, ki pool) and I have heard good things about the unchained monk and they get sweet archtypes (hungry ghost gets infinite ki points, Zen archer has all the benefits of archery plus more). Better then 3.5 monk at least (at least in core only).

[Hawkstar]

I'm talking 3.5/pathfinder. But general works too

In D&D 4e and 5e... nothing's wrong with the monk. It does what it's supposed to do (Kung Fu action hero)

In 3.P, it sucks because the game's core rule system is built against the monk. Unarmed warrior! But you need magic weapons and armor to keep up with the game's math, which monks don't get! Lots of Attacks! But you can't move if you want to use them! Massive speed boosts! But you can't attack if you actually move more than 5'. A save-or-die! But it takes two rounds to use, and can only be used once per WEEK. And its save DC isn't that impressive. Slow fall! If you're near a wall.

[Mechalich]

The core roles are something like: primary frontline combatant (D&D and PF don't really have rules for tanking), arcane caster (damage + utility), divine caster (healing+utility and secondary damage), and skill monkey.

Out of the Core Classes it falls out something like this:
Primary Frontline Combatant: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Arcane Caster: Sorcerer, Wizard
Divine Caster: Cleric, Druid
Skill Monkey: Rogue

The Bard and the Monk are the odd-classes-out, and the Monk actually has it worse as the Bard is capable of filling the skill monkey role so long as traps aren't going to be a big thing.

The monk also has a fluff problem - it's a class built largely on Eastern Fantasy tropes while D&D is built very heavily on Western Fantasy tropes. There are very few iconic figures in modern fantasy or even traditional Western mythology who map to the monk role. The monk largely exists to allow rabid fans to play martial arts masters and ninja types in D&D games where they pretty much do not belong.

[Arbane]

I'm talking 3.5/pathfinder. But general works too

Well, their single biggest problem is that their class features don't work well together - they can use their ridiculous move-rate, OR get to do damage with Flurry of Misses Blows (which also brings up their second problem, lousy accuracy and the fact they're better off using their fists that weapons usually, which makes an expensive Amulet of Mighty Fists pretty much mandatory). And DR will make them miserable. (Like every other combatant who didn't bring the right equipment, admittedly.)

Their third biggest problem is that of six stats, they need a good Strength (for punching), Good Dexterity (for AC, since they can't wear armor), good Constitution (for those all-important HP), Good Wisdom (for their class features). That leaves Intelligence and Charisma as the only stats they DON'T need to have pretty high.

Oh, and their Slow Fall ability is laughed at by any spellcaster who knows Feather Fall, never mind Fly.

Their Save-Or-Cry Stunning Fist requires a hit roll and a Save. Their high-level Quivering Palm ability is 1/day, needs a hit and a save, and the Wizard has been throwing out multiple insta-death spells for about 5-6 levels now.

Weird alignment restriction. What, Chaotic people can't master the art of Making Things Stop Living With Their Fists?

And there's more, but this is a start.

(And I see I got ninja'ed. How appropriate.)

[Hawkstar]

I think the D&D combat roles have actually refined themselves to "Frontliner" (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin) Capable of providing an "Anvil"/"Anchor" for the rest of the party to plan around, "Artillery/Battlefield control" (wizards/sorcerers) for handling crowds through either area damage or control effects, "Support" (Cleric, bard) for keeping the party up and functioning and mitigating enemy actions, and "Skirmisher" (Rogue, Monk) to move about the battlefield to take advantage of openings created by the other classes.

[Pauly]

I have a friend playing monk in my LMoP campaign, and i think they are decent. In combat, they are nothing special, pretty impressive damage but dependant on dice rolls. Once i saw him miss 3 attacks in a row. He's good to have around due to his high Wisdom, but i think a Cleric is better, because he doesnt bring anything that a fighter can't bring, and his AC is mediocre for a front-liner. Some pretty useless fluff like running on water and verticle surfaces, I've never seen him use Deflect Missile because he has high initiative and closes the gap with quickly with his fast movement. He also only ever uses Flurry of Blows, and it totally sucks when it misses and wastes his Ki point that is already so limited.

In most fights, he gets hit a lot and sometimes nearly goes down. I think that feels very wrong. Have you seen those shaolin/kung fu movies? Those guys are good at dodging stuff. I know they get Evasion at 7th level, but they need something to help them dodge attacks.

Also, their save proficiency should be Dex and Wis, not Str and Dex.

I think those are some very importan points. It comes down to trying to shoehorn an Eastern mythos archetype into a western mythos setting.

The unormored mystic warrior doesn't fit the setting. The same way a swashbucker (Captain Blood/D'Artagnan) doesn't really fit the high medieval mashup of LotR and Arthurian legend setting of D&D.

[Hawkstar]

I think the problem with the monk's defense is that D&D lacks reactive/skill-based damage mitigation.

[Lord Raziere]

In D&D 4e and 5e... nothing's wrong with the monk. It does what it's supposed to do (Kung Fu action hero)

In 3.P, it sucks because the game's core rule system is built against the monk. Unarmed warrior! But you need magic weapons and armor to keep up with the game's math, which monks don't get! Lots of Attacks! But you can't move if you want to use them! Massive speed boosts! But you can't attack if you actually move more than 5'. A save-or-die! But it takes two rounds to use, and can only be used once per WEEK. And its save DC isn't that impressive. Slow fall! If you're near a wall.

Basically this. So much this, quoted for truth.

Its Wuxia hero trying to fit into a Western Fantasy world, and of course its done very poorly. Wuxia heroes generally have more diversity in morality than what the monk gives them, not all of them even religious, and none of this is getting into how Wuxia generally have a wide variety of martial arts styles so there is a lot of difference between one who is a subtle pressure-point user or a rock-destroying pummeler, just as much as there is a difference between an illusionist and a pyromancer.

and what they do have is constrained by assumptions aimed at fighters being y'know, FIGHTERS, and being all down-to-earth in your combat style. I mean even if its too much to ask for a fighter to be wuxia-powerful, can't we at least get monks to tap into crazy kung fu to actually move beyond the most bare bones part of it and a constraining alignment assumption, all of which is topped by MAD, the main stat stuff is probably Wisdom/Dexterity with some Strength anyways rather than all six stats.

Basically, Monks as they are now are basically a worse paladin or rogue, when they should be the kung-fu equivalent of a sorcerer.

[Arbane]

I think the problem with the monk's defense is that D&D lacks reactive/skill-based damage mitigation.

Tome of Battle had a bit, but a loud group of D&D fans HATE Tome of Battle.

Pathfinder Monks USED to have a really good Feat for that (Crane Wing), but it got nerfed into near-uselessness.

[Arkhios]

The core roles are something like: primary frontline combatant (D&D and PF don't really have rules for tanking), arcane caster (damage + utility), divine caster (healing+utility and secondary damage), and skill monkey.

Out of the Core Classes it falls out something like this:
Primary Frontline Combatant: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger
Arcane Caster: Sorcerer, Wizard
Divine Caster: Cleric, Druid
Skill Monkey: Rogue

The Bard and the Monk are the odd-classes-out, and the Monk actually has it worse as the Bard is capable of filling the skill monkey role so long as traps aren't going to be a big thing.

The monk also has a fluff problem - it's a class built largely on Eastern Fantasy tropes while D&D is built very heavily on Western Fantasy tropes. There are very few iconic figures in modern fantasy or even traditional Western mythology who map to the monk role. The monk largely exists to allow rabid fans to play martial arts masters and ninja types in D&D games where they pretty much do not belong.

Fourth edition kinda had rules for tanking, as close as 'Marking' gets, anyway. Otherwise, I agree.

One could see bard and monk as two sides of a certain coin, actually. Both essentially fill the support class role. Bards are not too common in eastern fantasy (AFAIK, except maybe for geishas?) while they are very common in western fantasy (I've gathered that european culture have a lot of bardic references; for example, the concept: Bard comes from gaelic and welsh lore, and (this I know for a fact, unsurprisingly) finnish epic Kalevala is written in an original poetic verse), and likewise martially exquisite monks are pretty much nonexistent in western lore, while in asian cultures they seem to be more common.

But I digress. I feel Monks' niche is to fill the support role. They're not supposed to be the best of the best of damage dealers, nor are they supposed to be unkillable. They are just special in their own way, and should remain as such, imho. I can understand why people feel the lack of useful magic items might be unfair from a monk's perspective, but in a game which utilizes magic items so abundantly, the probelm isn't really being a monk, but the magic item dependancy itself. If magic items were more rare, playing a monk wouldn't feel so bad. (See 5th edition, for example: Magic items are rare, and the design intent is that you can adventure the whole of 20 levels without getting a single permanent magic item, and still be more than capable and efficient.)

[Efrate]

So many monk problems looking at 3.5. Look at the unchained monk in pathfinder its quite good and solves a lot of them. Flying kick alone makes you infinitely superior to a 3.5 monk, let alone all your other goodies.

Huge breakdown of all the stuff, spoilered for length.

Front line class. d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, MAD enough that you can't do much short of rolling amazing stats to have con help your HP. Good news is all your saves are good. Which is nice because you won't have the stats to pump them otherwise likely.

A decent skill list and 4 plus int, but int and char are dump stats so 2 or 3 points a level is more likely, maybe 4, but not enough to take a skillroll. Also UMD is not on your list and it would help so much. Not that you have the CHA for it.

Mostly useless class features. Most of your class features are fairly junk and easily replaced with a ton of fairly cheap magic stuff.

Flurry of blows is a full attack action. This makes it in all practicality useless. You are a highly mobile combatant (something 3.5 fairly actively hates) with no easy way to get pounce so make use of all these reduced to hit attacks. So you move your enhanced speed up to the guy, punch once. He moves away since you don't do meaningful damage, and you have to move again. Yeah he soaks an AoE. No problem. You now need to move again to use your flurry. This being your defining combat role (lot of attacks from a highly mobile person) and you cannot do it.

Multiple attacks only are decent if you get bonus damage on them. Like sneak attack, or skirmish. Or just a flaming weapon. All of these are denied to you without an investment more than double (for the energy damage) because items that enhance natural attacks are more expensive than their normal counterparts.

Stunning fist is ok, but not great. It is better than a lot of stuff you get. You cannot easily boost its save as much as you can a spell, but its something good.

Evasion is likewise nice, and you do need some dex. Sadly you are so MAD so its not ideal but its something.

Fast movement in the most common form of bonus so it doesnt stack with most movement increasing effects.

Bonus feats without needing to meet prereqs is nice. Look at the expanded options lists in various sources and you can get some nice stuff ignore stat and such reqs which is good cause again, MAD.

Still mind is ok. You have decent wisdom at least so its not as important as it would be on say a rogue or fighter but its ok.

Ki strike magic at 4th is nice. Lawful at 10, adamantine at 16. But it still a bit of a trap. You want to be encouraged to use your fists, with the damage increases and all, but a magic weapon will do more for you. You do 2d10 plus strength at lvl 20. That is 11 damage average plus strength. A flaming nunchaku will do 2d6 +1 + strength, 8 damage average plus strength. 20 levels vs. a 8k gp item. That you can still use your monk abilities with. Plus you can add a weapon crystal to the nunchaku to do more. Yes you overcome construct DR at level 16, when most constructs are behind you, and you overcome a select few demon and fey DRs maybe at 10. Again weapon crystals.

Slow fall has horrible restrictions (limited feet fell, must be near a wall, etc) and is easily replaced by a 2k gp ring or a 1st level spell.

Purity of body doesn't protect against supernatural diseases, like lycanthropy and mummy rot, which are the only type of diseases you care about past level 1 or 2 likely.

Wholeness of body heal 40 HP at level 20. When you get it at lvl 7 it heals 14. A single charge of lesser vigor heals 11. And that costs 15gp from a wand. Not that you can use wands, but if you could, or pay someone in your party who can.

Improved evasion is nice since its free. However evasion on a good ref save class with a dex focus is enough usually. Its better than choosing it as a rogue though.

Diamond body is nice. Poison immunity. At this level it won't come up much but when it does it is nasty so this is nice. Other than the 11 monk levels needed to get it.

Abundant step is dimension door once a day nice. Other than martial adepts have a similar effect every few minutes or a horizon walker has it ever 1d4 rounds. Its not that nice.

Diamond soul might be nice, SR equal to ten plus level is a double edged sword. Its not high enough to be very relevant, and most casters that aren't monsters boost their CL rather easily, but it can be great. You also however need to lower it voluntarily for your casters to buff or heal you. Which is a standard action, otherwise oh no you resisted that Heal spell when you were almost dead. Well.

Quivering palm is garbage. Once a week if you hit and deal damage then you get to have them make a fort save or they die. Fort is most things good save. And your DC won't be that great. And a lot of things are immune. And it takes a round to do then a round to activate at best.

Timeless body: Fluff, no penalties for aging. Barring someone starting at chargen if the DM allows it quite old for mental boosts this is almost never an issue. I have yet to have a campaign that lasted in world for enough years to matter, short of a 10/20 years later after the campaign ends a get together to do a bit of fun just to revisit a character we loved.

Tongue of the sun and moon: tongues (almost) but only living creatures. Primary casters are getting 9th and cementing their place as unkillable and solving everything. You can talk to (some)things. Tongues is better and is gotten at level 5/6. You get it at 17, and a reduced version.

Empty body: Ethereal for one round/level per day. Nice. Useful. Would have been better 10 levels ago. You get this at 19. Ninjas at level 20 get it as the spell for 2 ki points, so longer duration and more uses. Either way its not great, but its something.

Perfect self: You get DR 10/magic (everything even approaching a threat overcomes this and has for 15 levels or so), and are treated as an outsider. But you don't actually become one, which would have been nice. Charm person, Hold person, enlarge person, don't work on you anymore. All the charm/hold/dominate monsters do still, and because higher levels and higher save DCs you are more likely to face them. Alter self and polymorph are better now, since you can change into something good and contribute. But you cannot cast alter self, and you need to spend an action to lower SR before your caster friend buffs you. But once you do you can become something sweet. Which they could do as of level 7. Or 3 for alter self.

[Pugwampy]

Monk in theory is a fighter type . That dude that stands between monsters and squishies .

Except ....

Low HP
Low attack bonus .
AB stats hog .

Poor Bruce Lee is a thief type hero that cannot stand toe to toe with an armoured knight which I think is utter rubbish .

Fixing Monks is as easy as giving them fighter HP and Att Bonus
Extra AB stats would help alot too . I would offer monk players an automatic 18 for one of their stats before they roll .

[Max_Killjoy]

Part of the problem, IMO, is in trying to justify a class that fights without weapons and without armor... against opponents using weapons and armor.

Assuming two opponents with equivalent experience/skill levels (ie, same level in D&D), I'd pretty much always put my money on the guy wearing multiple layers of armor and carrying a long sharp metal object of suburb balance... against a guy wearing a layer of cloth and trying to punch through multiple layers of armor.

If it was really all that feasible to deliver seriously injuring unarmed blows through mail and/or plate over a thick layer of padding... history would be very different.

[Pugwampy]

I also think that if a monk could just have a whopping bonus on CMB,s and CMD .

That would make him very effective to just disarm or grapple a swordsman and force that guy down to his level . But thats linked to attack bonus and strength .

Not every monster is armed or armoured but they do just fine .

[Cluedrew]

One of the core issues is that martials in D&D world are not supposed to be spectacular. From the old wargame days the fighters would hold the line while the wizards would do all the interesting and game changing things behind them.

The problem is that monks are considered to be martials, but at the same time are built from an archetype that thrives on doing spectacular things. But that is taken away from them in D&D and there is very little left for them.

They cannot shatter steel with their hands, weave their way between flames that appear to have no gaps between them, sense malice directed at them nor channel the force of a fall into the ground and shatter stone with it. Yet I feel all these abilities fit right with the archetype, not that they get them. They are martials that aren't good at your classic martial things (toe-to-toe fighting) but don't really get anything replace it.

Also yeah, the don't quite fit in thematically with the other core classes.

[Stealth Marmot]

I know this topic has been covered a million times, but what exactly is mechanically wrong with the class? What needs to be addressed make it a viable option? What role in the party make up does it need to fill?

I want to do a bit of research for a game I'm making, and knowing this sort of thing would be a BIG help.

The short of it is that the Monk doesn't actually do anything to contribute to the party as a whole.

The long of it is that a Monk's abilities are, for the most part, defensive in nature. A Monk gains self healing, damage reduction, evasion, good saves, wisdom bonus to armor class, immunity to diseases and then poison, slow fall, spell resistance, timeless body, and a bonus on enchantment saves. All of these abilities are purely defensive, and only exist to make the monk harder to kill or get hurt. While not bad things to have (they drain party resources less due to them) they don't actually CONTRIBUTE anything to the party.

The Monk gains Fast movement and dimension door which help their mobility. This means they can get into position to do something, and possibly provide flank, but that is small use overall. They gain 3 bonus feats, which are of some potential use, but not as great as one might think. Keep in mind a Fighter gets a LOT more in bonus feats.

Let's take a look at the feats. Level 1: Improved grapple vs Stunning Fist. Improved grapple is nice against lower level wizards, but against anything but the squishiest and most unprepared of creatures will be able to go toe to toe with the monk who does not even have full base attack bonus. Stunning Fist is useful, especially since it can be used during a flurry, but it is limited in the types of creatures it can affect. Level 2: Deflect arrows vs. Combat reflexes. Deflect arrows is a defensive feat, so it wont help the party. Combat reflexes CAN be useful, but it will likely not come up much. Level 6: Improved Trip vs. Improved Disarm. Both of these are only really useful against human opponents. Improved disarm is not too effective since, like grapple, disarm is dependent on base attack bonus. Tripping does not depend on base attack bonus, but things that are large, things that are stocky like dwarves, or things that are quadripeds will get big bonuses that nullify the bonus if not overpower it. What's more, other creatures can't be tripped, like say a gelatinous cube.

Their big draw is their unarmed attacks and flurry of blows in which they can attack many times in a round. The problem is, their fists don't hit very hard. A Fighter will hit harder with a Greatsword with one hit than a monk will do with both hits on average, especially since the fighter will be utilizing a Base Attack Bonus that is 3 higher, up until at least 11th level. Especially since a Fighter can get extra damage put on their weapon through enhancement bonuses while a monk will struggle to get an amulet of mighty fists, not to mention things like weapon specialization. Basically, a Monk will be pumping out less damage then the fighter, and yet have a lower AC and hit points. And keep in mind that a fighter is considered low tier especially later in the game. What about their ki strikes? Well the ki strikes are only useful in keeping up with the weapons the front line attackers will end up getting, and do a weak job of doing so.

Up until 15th level they don't even get a special ability that no other class gets that is offensive, and even that one is limited in who it can target. Basically, monks get no real offensive capabilities that compare with even lower tier classes in battle.

Oh and they don't even get a decent ranged weapon. Not even a crossbow!

The alternative is that a monk is a skill monkey of some sort, right? Well a monk only gets 4+int skill points per level and intelligence is at best their 5th favored stat out of 6. At BEST a monk will have 5 or 6 skill points per level, and most of their skills are athletics based, with a couple knowledges, diplomacy, sense motive, stealth (Hide/Move silently), and perception (Spot/Listen). These are not rare skills. A monk makes a very poor diplomat (Charisma is the other stat fighting for 5th place), the knowledges are probably done by another class, and the athletics based skills are marginally useful at best.

So a Monk makes a poor skill monkey, and does very little for the party in battle except in very specific circumstances, and in those cases they provide no more than a different lower tier class would. The only good thing they can do is at low to mid levels they can hit an enemy spellcaster in a grapple and give them a wedgie or stun them, but that assumes you face A. Humanoid and B. Caster.

They don't even make a good tank because their AC is terrible and their hit die is only okay (d8).

Now with supplements and optimization a monk can work well, especially with multiclassing, but if a class has to be very specially built and can't perform without a person making it instinctively be able to build a workable character out of it, it is a poorly designed class.

Now Pathfinder improved things with the monk a little, giving them the ability to use ki to make extra attacks, gives them Stunning fist in addition to the bonus feats instead of it being an option, they can add status affects in addition to the stuns, their ki strikes overcome even more damage reductions, and the bonus feats they can get are chosen from a larger pool. Plus they also are better at combat maneuvers (disarm/trip/etc) The class still isn't as much of an offensive powerhouse, but at least it has SOME capabilities. Plus Pathfinder skills are a little more generous so they might be able to provide some skill use.

Basically the 3.5 is problematic because it only seems interested in what it can do to help itself, and there is very little it does to contribute to the group. The Pathfinder Monk is a little better, but still has some of the same problem.

[Stealth Marmot]

They cannot shatter steel with their hands, weave their way between flames that appear to have no gaps between them, sense malice directed at them nor channel the force of a fall into the ground and shatter stone with it.

1. Ki Strike (Adamantine)
2. Evasion/Abundant step
3. Sense Motive is a class skill
4. Slow fall/Ki Strike Adamantine

[Fizban]

It's Monkday again:

Monk: AC bonus is 2+1/2 level (+wisdom as usual) but doesn't stack with armor bonuses (no Mage Armor), monk's flurry of blows can be used on standard action attacks (not special feat actions, martial strikes, etc), Slow Fall includes Wall Walker and Water Step (from Dungeonscape and Stormwrack) for free, Wholeness of Body is equal to your full normal hit point total, add bonus feats at 10th, 14th, and 18th, Abundant Step can be used in 40' increments, Quivering Palm is usable 1/day. All Monk bonus feats can be chosen from any associated with the class or otherwise deemed reasonable. Monks can use gauntlets or handwraps enhanced as weapons and Bracers of Armor or similar monk outfits that use the enhancement bonus formula.

The main problem with the monk is that people expect unarmored martial artists to be hard to hit, not easy, and they don't get nearly enough AC. Fill out the bonus feats, add the cheap ACFs. Improve the supernaturals: Wholeness of Body is now relevant (same value as Guardinal celestials), Abundant Step now equivalent to other common *bamf* classes, let people actually use Quivering Palm, and that's it. Monk class is fixed, not rebuilt or replaced with a completely different set of abilities, just the core monk fixed up enough that you when you optimize it your class features still feel like features instead of jokes.

[emeraldstreak]

The problem is, their fists don't hit very hard.

Unarmed strike is the hardest hitting weapon in the game. The problem is it requires damage size optimization which is well beyond your average table optimization.

And even optimized, unarmed strike is still tethered to the rest of the monk which is underwhelming without ACF - compare to 'the rest' of the unarmed Swordsage which is the ToB maneuvers.

[Bucky]

Let's take a look at the feats. Level 1: Improved grapple vs Stunning Fist. Improved grapple is nice against lower level wizards, but against anything but the squishiest and most unprepared of creatures will be able to go toe to toe with the monk who does not even have full base attack bonus. Stunning Fist is useful, especially since it can be used during a flurry, but it is limited in the types of creatures it can affect. Level 2: Deflect arrows vs. Combat reflexes. Deflect arrows is a defensive feat, so it wont help the party. Combat reflexes CAN be useful, but it will likely not come up much. Level 6: Improved Trip vs. Improved Disarm. Both of these are only really useful against human opponents. Improved disarm is not too effective since, like grapple, disarm is dependent on base attack bonus. Tripping does not depend on base attack bonus, but things that are large, things that are stocky like dwarves, or things that are quadripeds will get big bonuses that nullify the bonus if not overpower it.

Combat Reflexes is important because it has synergy with the other bonus feats. The combination of all three can make a monk into a sticky space controller - try to move past the monk and they get a free stun, trip or grapple attempt, and the monk can stall multiple enemies that way.

Granted, it takes some optimization to make the tripping and grappling likely to work and the result isn't particularly better than a fighter taking the same bonus feats. But used well, they do force some enemies to engage the monk in melee (where Flurry is useful) while taking pressure off the more valuable back line party members.

---
Pathfinder has the Tetori Monk, which is a competent self-contained grapple build.

[Karl Aegis]

Unarmed strike at level 1 is a club that can't be thrown. Clubs cost 0 GP.

Unarmed strike at level 4 is a club that can't be thrown, but has a 25% chance to deal 1 or 2 bonus damage. Weapon Specialization is a 100% chance to do 2 bonus damage. A heavy mace deals the same damage and costs 12 GP.

At level 8 unarmed strike deals 1d10 damage. You are 2 BAB behind a full BAB class. You are basically using Monkey Grip on a greatclub. A great club costs 5 GP. The fighter deals 5-10 damage with his club (which he can still throw). You deal 1-10. The fighter has +4 more attack bonus with Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus on his club. More if his club is masterwork or magic. But clubs don't cost money, so throw any amount of clubs you want to. No need to spend money on the club to keep up with the monk.

[Eldariel]

A lot of stuff. The concept would be workable but it's just done poorly. There's nothing inherently preventing you from adding a wuxia hero to D&D; just look at Unarmed Swordsage. Monk's problems are simply the numbers. Also the peak. Monks are weak early on (low AC, low to hit) where warriors are normally at their best; they slowly scale up to more or less catch up to other warriors by level 20...but by that point warriors are so ridiculously far behind non-warriors that there's no reason to play a level 20 warrior (your frontline on those levels should just be a Cleric, a Druid or something summoned/bound). Something I wrote about this long ago (about the 3.5 Monk, PF Monk has a few more things going on for it):

They aren't exceptional tanks due to lowish HD, medium BAB, multi-attribute dependency (and thus comparably lower combat stats than melee monsters; this also hurts their supposed strengths in Grapple, Tripping & other combat maneuvers, along with Stunning Fist; all of those heavily reward straightforward dedication to a single stat over all else, and a Monk really can't pull that off), the fact that you can't combine their movement speed with Flurry (Flurry requires full attack, movement allows only one) and lack of weapon proficiencies (unarmed strikes getting decent dice later on, but lacking in special abilities and enhancing them costs a ****ton; oh, and no reach, no AoO-builds). Flurry is needed for them to do decent damage forcing them to ignore their speed boost in combat.

They aren't exceptional scouts due to lacking Trapfinding and having relatively low skill points and being unable to afford decent Int thanks to multi-attribute dependency (Hide/Move Silently/Tumble is all good, but if you don't have Trapfinding, scouting ahead in a hostile environment is like to get you killed).

They aren't exceptional mage killers (*chuckle*) because they really have nothing to especially threaten mages with. Just like every other warrior type, their movement is inferior to teleportation (once-per-day Dimension Door doesn't cut it), they have few if any ways to locate the mage and penetrate magical defenses (Mirror Image + Displacement + Blink: good luck hitting... Or Wall of Force) and they can't even reasonably use bows so their ability to act at range is infinitely diminished. Oh, and if they somehow manage to plop an Anti-Magic Field around themselves? They just gave up like 70% of their class features. Thanks to Greater Spell Penetration (in Core)/Assay Resistance (out of Core), their multi-attribute dependency, spells that ignore saves (even just good ol' Rays like Enervation/Scorching Ray/whatever, or Forcecages or something dumb), spells that trivialize touch AC (hello, True Strike!) and so on, all their magical defenses really add up to jack ****.

They aren't exceptional skirmishers due to not being able to Flurry with standard action and their speed bonus being enhancement thus, while probably being able to somewhat remain out of the harm's way with Spring Attack, not reducing the damage their allies take one bit and dealing negligible damage themselves. Indeed, this is the worst thing a Monk can do since it means the people who do the fighting are now taking all the beatdown while the Monk isn't contributing to the team's damage in any meaningful way either. In other words, the Monk isn't taking any hits and he isn't dealing any damage this way; thus he's as good as an empty slot in the party.


And overall, their class features kinda suck. Mostly, you can look at 'em like this:
-Flurry? That's nice! Now if only I were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I'd be doing a lot with my extra attacks on highest bonus!
-Improved Grapple/Trip/Stunning Fist/whatever? Nice! Now, if I only were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I could be landing these and winning the opposed checks!
-Speed boost? That's nice! Now, if I only could move and attack with my Flurry (which "almost" makes me equal to full BAB types), I could be doing something! Oh, and if this only stacked with magical speed boosts I'd actually be faster than the other classes.
-Unarmed Strikes? That's nice! Now, if I only got size increases or something so the damage dice would actually add up to something, and got 2x Power Attack returns and full BAB, this could add up to something!
-Ki Strikes? Nice, my unarmed strikes pretend to be weapons and get some minor abilities that almost replicate what my 1000gp weapon does! If only my WPL wasn't 100000...
-Slow Fall? So I get to replicate a 1st level spell by level 20? No? It only works next to walls? Well, almost replicate a 1st level spell!
-All this nice stuff, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, I can replicate many kinds of spells poorly...once per DAY! Oh, make it Once per WEEK for that scary scary, broken Finger of Death With Save DC Derived Off Secondary Stat That Requires An Attack To Hit To Be Used.
-Oh, there's more? I get to replicate few more random low level spells? Cool. Oh, and Evasion? Yeah, nice, my Reflex-saves actually matter something! That's like...25k saved on the Ring.
-I get Spell Resistance? Just to ensure my team can't waste a Heal on me when I'm about to die? Cool!


Lack of synergy and multi-attribute dependency pretty much screw Monks up. Oh, and the good class features being limited to Very Few Uses Per Day. Seriously, if Monks had the ability to use Flurry whenever making an attack, if they got like Wis x uses of their now-daily abilities and the ability to use Dex for combat maneuvers, and Wis/Dex for damage, they'd be just fine. Grab Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack and they'd be able to go to town. As all those things are ****ed up though, they don't. As I mentioned above, those multiclass builds easily sidestep these issues. Mono-classed Monks don't though.

[Stealth Marmot]

Unarmed strike is the hardest hitting weapon in the game. The problem is it requires damage size optimization which is well beyond your average table optimization.

And even optimized, unarmed strike is still tethered to the rest of the monk which is underwhelming without ACF - compare to 'the rest' of the unarmed Swordsage which is the ToB maneuvers.

Unarmed strike does less damage than a longsword up until 4th level, at which point it is equal damage with a lower crit range until 8th level. So it is worse than the most popular one handed weapon in the game until 8th level, at which point it becomes arguably equal at best until 12th level. If you want to compare it to 2 handed weapons (Which you probably should since monks don't use shields), it does less damage then a Greatsword until 12th level, at which point it is equal level with a lower crit range until 16th level. At that point it becomes 2d8, the most damaging medium sized weapon in the game, but still has a lower crit range than a Greatsword. Plus, let me remind you, Greatswords use Strength Bonus and a half for damage bonus, while unarmed attacks only use strength, so the damage difference is on average evened out with an 18 strength, which is probable at 16th level for classes like these.

So yes unless you bring out the more obscure optimization (which involves looking in the MONSTER MANUAL for a feat and having a DM who is at least a little open to interpretation) the damage of an unarmed attack is actually pretty crap. Even with the feat you are getting barely par levels of damage considering that Amulets of Mighty Fists (Which add enhancement bonuses to your fists) cost 50% more than a similarly enhanced weapon and also does not have other possible enhancements (like flaming) by core as far as I know, and let me repeat it only adds strength mod damage and not 1.5x strength mod damage. That doesn't even factor in that the Monk is less likely to have as good a strength as a melee fighter/barbarian since they have to focus on a wider array of stats (Wisdom, Dex, Con, and Strength as opposed to just Strength and Con mainly)

[Troacctid]

I mean it's not super complicated. Monks are bad because they have 💩💩💩💩 class features.

[Stealth Marmot]

I mean it's not super complicated. Monks are bad because they have 💩💩💩💩 class features.

Well the guy is doing research on a game so I figure he is looking for more explanation than the class features are crap, more about WHY the class features are crap.

And the slightly more complex answer is "Their class features do not enable them to contribute meaningfully to the group."

[emeraldstreak]

it only adds strength mod damage and not 1.5x strength mod damage

Two-hand wield an oversized Scorpion Kama (MiC). You get 1.5x strength damage and the unarmed damage dice progression in one. You can also add flaming or whatever on the kama.


Unarmed strike does less damage than a longsword up until 4th level, at which point it is equal damage with a lower crit range until 8th level. So it is worse than the most popular one handed weapon in the game until 8th level, at which point it becomes arguably equal at best until 12th level. If you want to compare it to 2 handed weapons (Which you probably should since monks don't use shields), it does less damage then a Greatsword until 12th level, at which point it is equal level with a lower crit range until 16th level. At that point it becomes 2d8, the most damaging medium sized weapon in the game, but still has a lower crit range than a Greatsword. Plus, let me remind you, Greatswords use Strength Bonus and a half for damage bonus, while unarmed attacks only use strength, so the damage difference is on average evened out with an 18 strength, which is probable at 16th level for classes like these.

So yes unless you bring out the more obscure optimization (which involves looking in the MONSTER MANUAL for a feat and having a DM who is at least a little open to interpretation) the damage of an unarmed attack is actually pretty crap. Even with the feat you are getting barely par levels of damage considering that Amulets of Mighty Fists (Which add enhancement bonuses to your fists) cost 50% more than a similarly enhanced weapon and also does not have other possible enhancements (like flaming) by core as far as I know, and let me repeat it only adds strength mod damage and not 1.5x strength mod damage. That doesn't even factor in that the Monk is less likely to have as good a strength as a melee fighter/barbarian since they have to focus on a wider array of stats (Wisdom, Dex, Con, and Strength as opposed to just Strength and Con mainly)


Unarmed strike at level 1 is a club that can't be thrown. Clubs cost 0 GP.

Unarmed strike at level 4 is a club that can't be thrown, but has a 25% chance to deal 1 or 2 bonus damage. Weapon Specialization is a 100% chance to do 2 bonus damage. A heavy mace deals the same damage and costs 12 GP.

At level 8 unarmed strike deals 1d10 damage. You are 2 BAB behind a full BAB class. You are basically using Monkey Grip on a greatclub. A great club costs 5 GP. The fighter deals 5-10 damage with his club (which he can still throw). You deal 1-10. The fighter has +4 more attack bonus with Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus on his club. More if his club is masterwork or magic. But clubs don't cost money, so throw any amount of clubs you want to. No need to spend money on the club to keep up with the monk.

Thank you for illustrating how most approach optimizing unarmed strike. Now let's try something more creative:

1. Advance to the 2d10 (at M size) faster by items like Monk's Belt and feats like Superior Unarmed Strike.

2. The low-level, oil-able, wand-able hour-long duration spell Greater Mighty Wallop from 3.5's Races of the Dragon makes your unarmed strike Colossal. 2d10 -> 12d8 (meanwhile the very best from all other weapons go 2d6->8d6, much weaker).

3. Add the feats Improved Natural Attack and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) for Totem Avatar 12d8->16d8->24d8

4. Be a kalashtar or psiforged monk with ectoplasmic fist or battlefist 24d8 -> 32d8. And where's the fighter's weapon at this moment - ah yes still at 8d6.

[emeraldstreak]

Combat Reflexes is important because it has synergy with the other bonus feats. The combination of all three can make a monk into a sticky space controller - try to move past the monk and they get a free stun, trip or grapple attempt, and the monk can stall multiple enemies that way.

Granted, it takes some optimization to make the tripping and grappling likely to work and the result isn't particularly better than a fighter taking the same bonus feats. But used well, they do force some enemies to engage the monk in melee (where Flurry is useful) while taking pressure off the more valuable back line party members.


You can absolutely build a space-controller Monk with the ACF Decisive Strike from PHBII.

Additionally, you can use an Eberron style (which in itself can grant longspear as a special Monk weapon) or DM style feat to expand your list of special Monk weapons. Then use Aptitude enchantment from ToB to apply the above feat to any weapon.

[ATHATH]

Part of the problem, IMO, is in trying to justify a class that fights without weapons and without armor... against opponents using weapons and armor.

Assuming two opponents with equivalent experience/skill levels (ie, same level in D&D), I'd pretty much always put my money on the guy wearing multiple layers of armor and carrying a long sharp metal object of suburb balance... against a guy wearing a layer of cloth and trying to punch through multiple layers of armor.

If it was really all that feasible to deliver seriously injuring unarmed blows through mail and/or plate over a thick layer of padding... history would be very different.
I'd bet on the guy in cloth robes; he's most likely a spellcaster and/or someone with a trick up his sleeve that will win him the fight.

Also, this quote is a nice example of the Guy at the Gym fallacy/mentality.

[Karl Aegis]

Two-hand wield an oversized Scorpion Kama (MiC). You get 1.5x strength damage and the unarmed damage dice progression in one. You can also add flaming or whatever on the kama.





Thank you for illustrating how most approach optimizing unarmed strike. Now let's try something more creative:

1. Advance to the 2d10 (at M size) faster by items like Monk's Belt and feats like Superior Unarmed Strike.

2. The low-level, oil-able, wand-able hour-long duration spell Greater Mighty Wallop from 3.5's Races of the Dragon makes your unarmed strike Colossal. 2d10 -> 12d8 (meanwhile the very best from all other weapons go 2d6->8d6, much weaker).

3. Add the feats Improved Natural Attack and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) for Totem Avatar 12d8->16d8->24d8

4. Be a kalashtar or psiforged monk with ectoplasmic fist or battlefist 24d8 -> 32d8. And where's the fighter's weapon at this moment - ah yes still at 8d6.

This. This is what is wrong with the monk. This right here is exactly what is wrong with the monk. Caster level 20 oils, really?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thank you for illustrating how most approach optimizing unarmed strike. Now let's try something more creative:
And so you have spent four feats (because you need Shape Soulmeld in there too), your race, and a ridiculously expensive wand/oil/buff you begged off the party caster to 144 damage a hit. Meanwhile, the Fighter or Barbarian who built around charging is doing how much damage with that same resource expenditure...?

EDIT: Uhhmm... Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Battle Jump + Valorous Weapon means 100 bonus damage from Power Attack alone; with a +10 Str bonus (weak sauce at this kind of level) there's another 45 damage. Add +5 Collision, and the 2d6 from a greatsword, and that's another 78 or so.

[emeraldstreak]

This. This is what is wrong with the monk. This right here is exactly what is wrong with the monk. Caster level 20 oils, really?

A Medium creature will do with CL 16. That's 810gp for a day of adventuring.

32d8 = 144. This is just the damage die, it doesn't include any other bonuses. This per a single slap, not even a full attack, not even a double from Decisive Strike. This single, undoubled slap one-shots monsters in the 20-30k treasure range.

You'll be fine.

[emeraldstreak]

And so you have spent four feats (because you need Shape Soulmeld in there too), your race, and a ridiculously expensive wand/oil/buff you begged off the party caster to 144 damage a hit. Meanwhile, the Fighter or Barbarian who built around charging is doing how much damage with that same resource expenditure...?

EDIT: Uhhmm... Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Battle Jump + Valorous Weapon means 100 bonus damage from Power Attack alone; with a +10 Str bonus (weak sauce at this kind of level) there's another 45 damage. Add +5 Collision, and the 2d6 from a greatsword, and that's another 78 or so.

Right. Let's add 3.0's Battle Jump -> oops 64d8...or is it 96d8 I vaguely remember something about counting as yet another size larger.

Valorous Weapon - reread what I said about Scorpion Kama.

Others...well, let me put it that way. Adding Chaos Monk (in place of some Fighter levels) using the oversized Scorpion Kama trick for Str to dmg ratio + damage die optimization = higher damage than any Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker TO ubercharger out there.

[Troacctid]

Two-hand wield an oversized Scorpion Kama (MiC). You get 1.5x strength damage and the unarmed damage dice progression in one. You can also add flaming or whatever on the kama.





Thank you for illustrating how most approach optimizing unarmed strike. Now let's try something more creative:

1. Advance to the 2d10 (at M size) faster by items like Monk's Belt and feats like Superior Unarmed Strike.

2. The low-level, oil-able, wand-able hour-long duration spell Greater Mighty Wallop from 3.5's Races of the Dragon makes your unarmed strike Colossal. 2d10 -> 12d8 (meanwhile the very best from all other weapons go 2d6->8d6, much weaker).

3. Add the feats Improved Natural Attack and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) for Totem Avatar 12d8->16d8->24d8

4. Be a kalashtar or psiforged monk with ectoplasmic fist or battlefist 24d8 -> 32d8. And where's the fighter's weapon at this moment - ah yes still at 8d6.
Greater Mighty Wallop caps the weapon's effective size at Colossal, and it is applied last, so you can't get more than 12d8. Admittedly better base damage than 8d6 (or 6d8 depending on the weapon), but you've also spent an extra 13,000 gp on a Monk's Belt and an extra feat on Superior Unarmed Strike, and you're stuck with at least eleven levels of Monk (only two or three of which are any good).

[emeraldstreak]

Greater Mighty Wallop caps the weapon's effective size at Colossal, and it is applied last, so you can't get more than 12d8. Admittedly better base damage than 8d6 (or 6d8 depending on the weapon), but you've also spent an extra 13,000 gp on a Monk's Belt and an extra feat on Superior Unarmed Strike, and you're stuck with at least eleven levels of Monk (only two or three of which are any good).

The other things I listed specifically count "as if a size increase" for their math, but aren't actual size increases. They always stack with GMW or any other way to be Colossal, from being actually Colossal, to being just fairly big and manifesting augmented Psionics.

Honestly, you will be better off 'wasting levels' on Unarmed Swordsage or one of the many PrCs that progress unarmed strike, or at least on superior Monk ACF like Invisible Fist.

[Deeds]

As a thought experiment, compare the monk level up chart to every other PHB class's chart. Now think about the potential reactions people could make.

New Player/DM: "Holy crap! Flurry of blows, stunning fist, bonus speed, quivering palm... OMG quivering palm!! This class is unbalanced man."

3.5 Game Developer/Editor: Same as above. Add, "Gerald, I said make an Asian-themed class not a DBZ class. Nerf monk's BaB, flurry of blows, and make the overpowering timeless body 10 levels higher."

Veteran: Ignores the chart. "Do I reeeeally want to dip 1 or 2 levels monk? I could just request a monk's belt at a later level."

Cat: Mrrroow

[Sayt]

I think those are some very importan points. It comes down to trying to shoehorn an Eastern mythos archetype into a western mythos setting.

The unormored mystic warrior doesn't fit the setting. The same way a swashbucker (Captain Blood/D'Artagnan) doesn't really fit the high medieval mashup of LotR and Arthurian legend setting of D&D.
I don't actually agree that 3.P is inherently and implicitly western/high medieval, or that monks don't fit in there. Hell, Friar Tuck beating Robin Hood's ass off of a bridge sounds like a lowish level monk to me. 3.p Is made in the west and the default settings are western (or at least the parts that emulate our west are enphasisee, but I don't buy that it doesn't work.


And so you have spent four feats (because you need Shape Soulmeld in there too), your race, and a ridiculously expensive wand/oil/buff you begged off the party caster to 144 damage a hit. Meanwhile, the Fighter or Barbarian who built around charging is doing how much damage with that same resource expenditure...?

EDIT: Uhhmm... Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Battle Jump + Valorous Weapon means 100 bonus damage from Power Attack alone; with a +10 Str bonus (weak sauce at this kind of level) there's another 45 damage. Add +5 Collision, and the 2d6 from a greatsword, and that's another 78 or so.

...do...do people actually think that uberchargers are at all a good build to bring up as a benchmark for reasonable damage?

Yes, whirling frenzy lion totem shock troopers do the bigbig number. More than most other martial builds can pull together, but that doesn't make them bad, just not as good as (what I think of as) a TO build. 144 average on the dice seems pretty good, certainly nothing to **** on and dismiss.

[Troacctid]

The other things I listed specifically count "as if a size increase" for their math, but aren't actual size increases. They always stack with GMW or any other way to be Colossal, from being actually Colossal, to being just fairly big and manifesting augmented Psionics.
Greater Mighty Wallop cares about the weapon's effective size, not its actual size. Also, it specifically refers you to Table 2-2 in the DMG, which tops out at 12d8.

[Soranar]

Well if you just look at the chassis, it should tell you what's wrong by comparing it to a fighter type

Good things the monk has

-good saves, bonus feats

Now the problems

Defensive problems

-no armor or shields (which means AC is purely reliant on STATS)
-no access to magical armor or shields (which means a lot of the loot you find is useless to you)
-d8 hitpoints for a melee class (you would need d10 minimum)


Offensive problems

-no pounce and the most simple way to pounce is blocked to you (dipping barbarian)
-using a mount has no benefits to you
-the only ranged weapon supported by your class featues are shuriken
-can't use power attack properly (unarmed strikes are not 2 handed weapons)
-you require a LOT of feats/tricks to compete with normal fighters simply using power attack

here's an example of this

melee fighting

-normal fighter using a lance from atop a horse

he gets x2 damage from the lance
he gets power attack damage x2 (from using a 2 handed weapon)
he gets 1.5x STR bonus to damage (from using a 2 handed weapon)
he charges (+2 to hit)

the result is 1d8 + 1.5x his STR (say 18 STR so +6) + 2x his power attack multiplied by 2

which means 21+4x damage (x = power attack investment) so 25 damage at level 1

but say he doesn't use a horse and just uses a 2 handed sword
he still deals 2d6 damage + 6 (STR) + 2x (power attack) for 15 damage
a barbarian ubercharger will do a LOT more than this

a monk gets mediocre weapon damage (1d6) + 1x his STR (which won't be 18 since he's MAD) + no power attack since it's not that great an investment for him so ~9 damage if I'm generous

and he never catches up as he levels up


I'm not even talking about how expensive it is to enchant his fists or fix any of his weaknesses

[LordOfCain]

Out of the Core Classes it falls out something like this:
Primary Frontline Combatant: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger Wizard's Familiar
Arcane Caster: Sorcerer, Just Wizard
Divine Caster: Cleric, Druid Still Wizard
Skill Monkey: Rogue and more Wizard

Fixed that for ya! 😁

[emeraldstreak]

Greater Mighty Wallop cares about the weapon's effective size, not its actual size. Also, it specifically refers you to Table 2-2 in the DMG, which tops out at 12d8.

And it gets us at 12d8. Other things like Improved Natural Attack that clearly:

- state are not actual size increases
- improve the damage of Colossal creatures

get us above 12d8.

**********

Anyway, I've seen builds who claim 1024d8 in epic, and I've seen people who are shocked by the power of unarmed strike optimization and are uncomfortable going above 12d8. The lower it is, the less resources the Monk/the Unarmed Swordsage has to dedicate to achieve it, and even at 12d8 that's 54 damage per hit before any other bonuses. Your DM makes the final call on your table.

[Troacctid]

And it gets us at 12d8. Other things like Improved Natural Attack that clearly:

- state are not actual size increases
- improve the damage of Colossal creatures

get us above 12d8.
They don't need to be actual size increases because the spell looks at your effective size, not your actual size. And everything else is applied before the spell, not after.

[Darrin]

And the slightly more complex answer is "Their class features do not enable them to contribute meaningfully to the group."

While notably awful, this is not the most egregious offense of the monk class. The worst offense is that it's not very good at what it's designed to do. It's not particularly good at smashing things with unarmed strikes. It's class abilities are barely related to the wuxia genre, and seem to be based on a single bad chop-sockey movie that someone saw in 1981. Even worse, it's signature class features don't work together: they have high mobility, but can't use it with Flurry. Not being able to use magic weapons or armor without jumping through hoops cuts them off from about 2/3rds of the Christmas Tree. It's not that they can't contribute to the party (they make decent pack animals and are good at corpse retrieval), it's that whatever it is they are supposed to be good at, they stink at it.

[emeraldstreak]

-no pounce and the most simple way to pounce is blocked to you (dipping barbarian)


Ex-barbarians don't lose their fast movement/spiritual lion totem, so you can start as one and continue as Monk, and get over losing Rage.

Alternatively, Chaos Monk and Barbarian are a great fit.

[Eldariel]

Right. Let's add 3.0's Battle Jump -> oops 64d8...or is it 96d8 I vaguely remember something about counting as yet another size larger.

There are lots of ways to add to the dice. However, those Unarmed damage dice don't really match charger damage simply because the relevant part in most damage multiplication is the multiplied part. Not that it matters; you can generally get enough to get the job done. That said, UA damage dice are definitely the best feature of Monk. However, its best users are the likes of:
Tashalatora Monk 2/Psionic 18 (Psy War, Ardent, Psion, etc.)
Monk 1/Cleric 5-6/Sacred Fist 10 (Cleric 5 suffices with fractionals, Cleric 6 with the buggy default system)
Monk 1/Wizard 5-6/Enlightened Fist 10 (see above)
Unarmed Swordsage 20

And the like. Between Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt, 11 levels of UA progression gives you level 10 UA strikes anyways. There's also Monk's Tattoo and few others IIRC but that suffices. Classes that come natively with the size bonuses, buffs, means to move and attack, etc. tend to wield the UA dice much better than a raw Monk. And you get incredible amounts of other goodies out of the deal too.

[Deophaun]

There are lots of ways to add to the dice. However, those Unarmed damage dice don't really match charger damage simply because the relevant part in most damage multiplication is the multiplied part.
A valorous necklace of natural attacks will happily multiply the monk's UA damage dice.

But yes, anything beyond Monk 1 or 2 is pretty much a waste.

[emeraldstreak]

There are lots of ways to add to the dice. However, those Unarmed damage dice don't really match charger damage simply because the relevant part in most damage multiplication is the multiplied part. Not that it matters; you can generally get enough to get the job done. That said, UA damage dice are definitely the best feature of Monk. However, its best users are the likes of:
Tashalatora Monk 2/Psionic 18 (Psy War, Ardent, Psion, etc.)
Monk 1/Cleric 5-6/Sacred Fist 10 (Cleric 5 suffices with fractionals, Cleric 6 with the buggy default system)
Monk 1/Wizard 5-6/Enlightened Fist 10 (see above)
Unarmed Swordsage 20

And the like. Between Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt, 11 levels of UA progression gives you level 10 UA strikes anyways. There's also Monk's Tattoo and few others IIRC but that suffices. Classes that come natively with the size bonuses, buffs, means to move and attack, etc. tend to wield the UA dice much better than a raw Monk. And you get incredible amounts of other goodies out of the deal too.

Mentioning Carmendine Monk. Agree with your list.


As for uberchargers, I've done the math, and, yes, a Chaos Monk (DM 335 - needed for alignment compatibility) wielding an oversized (so he can add x1.5 Str - and eventually more) Scorpion Kama (MiC - deals the dice damage of unarmed strike, not kama) can improve the damage of a TO ubercharger.

The strength-derived damage stays exactly the same.

The BAB-derived damage takes a slight hit.

The weapon dice-derived damage is much higher.

[Coretron03]

...do...do people actually think that uberchargers are at all a good build to bring up as a benchmark for reasonable damage?

Yes, whirling frenzy lion totem shock troopers do the bigbig number. More than most other martial builds can pull together, but that doesn't make them bad, just not as good as (what I think of as) a TO build. 144 average on the dice seems pretty good, certainly nothing to **** on and dismiss.

Thing is, he's pulling resources from alot of places (4 feats, A big portion of wealth by level (Assuming around level 10 or something) and race) to do something that a ubercharger should stomp on with less resources and said monks reach 36d8 and comparing it to a fighter with only greater might wallop. A bit skewed. And he spends 810gp each day. Not really sustainable for level 9-11 characters. If a ubercharger is TO for equaling (likely surpassing) his damage I don't see how the monk build isn't.

[SirNibbles]

1. 3/4 BAB means it can't hit as well, it can't qualify for feats, and it doesn't get enough attacks.

2. Poor ability synergy. The speed bonus and Flurry of Blows don't work together at all.

3. MAD. You need Str, Dex, Wis, and Con. If you want feats that require Combat Expertise, you would also need Int 13. It's stretched so far in every direction.

4. Reliance on others. Monks have no ability to buff themselves in any meaningful way. A 3rd level spell from a Wizard can increase a Monk's UAS damage by 5x. The Monk can't do anything like that by himself. When a Monk 20 deals significantly less unarmed damage than a Monk 6/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5, there's an issue.

[Eldariel]

Mentioning Carmendine Monk. Agree with your list.


As for uberchargers, I've done the math, and, yes, a Chaos Monk (DM 355 - needed for alignment compatibility) wielding an oversized (so he can add x1.5 Str - and eventually more) Scorpion Kama (MiC - deals the dice damage of unarmed strike, not kama) can improve the damage of a TO ubercharger.

The strength-derived damage stays exactly the same.

The BAB-derived damage takes a slight hit.

The weapon dice-derived damage is much higher.

Compared to Spirited Charge Lance Pouncing TO? Not that it matters, if both parties do damage up to the scientific notation, it's purely academic. But I would think the additional 3xmultiplier from Lance would be more relevant than the weapon damage dice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Right. Let's add 3.0's Battle Jump -> oops 64d8...or is it 96d8 I vaguely remember something about counting as yet another size larger.

Valorous Weapon - reread what I said about Scorpion Kama.

Others...well, let me put it that way. Adding Chaos Monk (in place of some Fighter levels) using the oversized Scorpion Kama trick for Str to dmg ratio + damage die optimization = higher damage than any Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker TO ubercharger out there.
The basic point, as Coretron03 touched on, is that "use a bunch of feats and magic items to do lots of damage" isn't a uniquely monk thing. Even "doing lots of damage with natural weapons" is best done with a minimum of actual Monk levels.

The reason Monk is a bad class has nothing to do with high-op damage potential, mind. It's that it doesn't really do the things it advertises itself as doing in any reasonable or synergistic way.

[Remuko]

Where is the Chaos Monk from? Someone above made it sound like it was from Dragon Magazine 355, I checked and couldn't find it there. If its somewhere else could someone tell me what book or magazine its from? If it is from DM 355 can someone cite the page so I can look it up?

[Rhyltran]

Greater Mighty Wallop caps the weapon's effective size at Colossal, and it is applied last, so you can't get more than 12d8. Admittedly better base damage than 8d6 (or 6d8 depending on the weapon), but you've also spent an extra 13,000 gp on a Monk's Belt and an extra feat on Superior Unarmed Strike, and you're stuck with at least eleven levels of Monk (only two or three of which are any good).

This. You'll be hard pressed to find any DM who will let you exceed 12d8. At least, I've never met any. My last monk capped out at 12d8 as well simply because of the way everything stacks and you can't get above 12d8 with Greater Mighty Wallop.

[Eldariel]

Where is the Chaos Monk from? Someone above made it sound like it was from Dragon Magazine 355, I checked and couldn't find it there. If its somewhere else could someone tell me what book or magazine its from? If it is from DM 355 can someone cite the page so I can look it up?

It's actually DR335 page 88.

[emeraldstreak]

Compared to Spirited Charge Lance Pouncing TO? Not that it matters, if both parties do damage up to the scientific notation, it's purely academic. But I would think the additional 3xmultiplier from Lance would be more relevant than the weapon damage dice.

Sure.

Explanation.


First, a relevant quote from a top ubercharger build (if you can provide a superior one, please do)


Note here that this has 1 more attack than the frenzied berserker ubercharger (ala otto and tempest) but my damage multiplier is much higher at x11 for the first attack and x10 for last six attacks.


Here is the average damage calculation, no crits:
136 (Power attack at 4:1 ratio via leap attack)
134 (2x str from power lunge)
21 (6d6 lance)
5 (enhancement)
167 (2.5x str girallon’s arms)
2 (battle jump)
= 465

x11 = 5,115
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650


= 33,015


Note that current top-uberchargers have very high multipliers: this one has mostly 10s, one 11.

So, what happens if we add a bit of Chaos Monk:

- lose the lance's 6d6 damage
- lose 1 multiplier (that's it - all others aren't lance specific and the oversized Scorpion Kama has them)

? lose a bit from the BAB x4 xLeap Attack = but not really because this is TO and the character is already loaded with custom magic items for his spell boosts, so add another for Divine Power

+gain unarmed strike dice. How many exactly depends on stacking RAW - both for the bonuses to effective level and size increases beyond Colossal (which this build already is). But a fair guess will be a lot more than 6d6, multiplied by 9s and one 10 = more damage than the lance.

[Coretron03]

Sure.

Explanation.


First, a relevant quote from a top ubercharger build (if you can provide a superior one, please do)


Note here that this has 1 more attack than the frenzied berserker ubercharger (ala otto and tempest) but my damage multiplier is much higher at x11 for the first attack and x10 for last six attacks.


Here is the average damage calculation, no crits:
136 (Power attack at 4:1 ratio via leap attack)
134 (2x str from power lunge)
21 (6d6 lance)
5 (enhancement)
167 (2.5x str girallon’s arms)
2 (battle jump)
= 465

x11 = 5,115
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650
x10 = 4,650


= 33,015


Note that current top-uberchargers have very high multipliers: this one has mostly 10s, one 11.

So, what happens if we add a bit of Chaos Monk:

- lose the lance's 6d6 damage
- lose 1 multiplier (that's it - all others aren't lance specific and the oversized Scorpion Kama has them)

? lose a bit from the BAB x4 xLeap Attack = but not really because this is TO and the character is already loaded with custom magic items for his spell boosts, so add another for Divine Power

+gain unarmed strike dice. How many exactly depends on stacking RAW - both for the bonuses to effective level and size increases beyond Colossal (which this build already is). But a fair guess will be a lot more than 6d6, multiplied by 9s and one 10 = more damage than the lance.



That seems... Biased, at best. I Mean, your monks burning at least 4 feats over the ubercharger so that should matter for something. And custom items are iffy. I'm not very well versed with these kind of things but it doesn't seem quite right. And if he has frenzied berserker levels why is power attack only 4:1? Shouldn't it be 8:1 IIRC? I'll leave this to someone else who knows this kind of stuff better.

[Eldariel]

I mean, UA Dice also require level investment which could also be used to e.g. increase PA dice instead. It's a rather complex equation than that but if you did the comparison, I'll take your word for it.

That said, those numbers are still fairly tame. I don't think the truly impressive Chargers ever got posted anywhere - because nobody could be arsed to count the damage. But while it was nowhere near the world record numbers (that's the Jovoc Nanobot loop that's essentially manually stopped), it was still enough to require scientific notation. I recall it came up in the Test of Spite at some point...? But certainly, UA Strike technology can be utilized. It's actually bludgeoning so if you make 'em Aptitude you could use Lightning Maces too, though of course you'd prefer a high crit weapon for that. Again, either should do enough though.

EDIT: This build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg269757#msg269757) seems to be a decent way up there.

[emeraldstreak]

That seems... Biased, at best. I Mean, your monks burning at least 4 feats over the ubercharger so that should matter for something. And custom items are iffy. I'm not very well versed with these kind of things but it doesn't seem quite right. And if he has frenzied berserker levels why is power attack only 4:1? Shouldn't it be 8:1 IIRC? I'll leave this to someone else who knows this kind of stuff better.

This is TO. Uberchargers aren't spellcasters but they need their buffs.

Feat count matters only if 20 levels + 2 Flaws aren't enough. I'm not saying I can squeeze in all, but the lance's damage is a paltry 6d6.

You are right about the power attack ratio - I only noticed it after posting and went back to the source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939387&postcount=25)Google turned up.

Turns out it isn't even a frenzied berserker, which might open very interesting possibilities to redo the build with lawful Martial Monk - a Dragon Magazine wonder that can take Fighter feats ignoring their prerequisites.

[emeraldstreak]

I mean, UA Dice also require level investment which could also be used to e.g. increase PA dice instead. It's a rather complex equation than that but if you did the comparison, I'll take your word for it.

That said, those numbers are still fairly tame. I don't think the truly impressive Chargers ever got posted anywhere - because nobody could be arsed to count the damage. But while it was nowhere near the world record numbers (that's the Jovoc Nanobot loop that's essentially manually stopped), it was still enough to require scientific notation. I recall it came up in the Test of Spite at some point...? But certainly, UA Strike technology can be utilized. It's actually bludgeoning so if you make 'em Aptitude you could use Lightning Maces too, though of course you'd prefer a high crit weapon for that. Again, either should do enough though.

EDIT: This build (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg269757#msg269757) seems to be a decent way up there.

Thank you.

This one is actually very easy to beat.

Explanation.

This ubercharger makes heavy use of reverse-engineering magic items.

Which is all our Monk wants.

1. Reverse engineer Scorpion Kata. Now you have the Scorpion weapon enchantment (flat 4,000 gp cost).

2. Take a single 3.5 Eberron or Dragon Magazine feat that expands your special Monk weapons with whatever weapon.

3. Enchant the lance this build uses with Aptitude (ToB) and Scorpion

Congratulations, this lance is now a special Monk weapon that does damage dice equal to your unarmed strike; while retaining all its other qualities.

[Eldariel]

One thing that hasn't sufficiently been stated in this thread yet, is that Chaos Monk and Wild Monk (both Dragon Magazine) are significantly better than any Monk variants in the ordinary books. And then there's the silliness that is Martial Monk. And Chaos Monk is mostly compatible with either (Wild Monk and Chaos Monk both lose Abundant Step). Add Invisible Fist and you have a rather good set of abilities, though you still need to pick up Pounce somewhere (probably either Sphinx Claws or Pouncebarian).

Chaos Monk in particular is just Monk but one that gets some minor good stuff that makes it so much better. It gets an average ½ more attacks on level 1 than normal Monk and goes up +1 attack at level 9, +1.5 attacks at level 10, +0.5 at level 11 and +1.5 at level 15. Then there's the actually useful charge-maneuver in Erratic Advance (since you're Chaotic, you can easily pick up Barbie 1 for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy) with an actually useful daily allotment at Wis times. And then there's the Displacing Stance which gets really nice on level 12 - one of the extremely few abilities that grants you miss chance not negated by True Seeing. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts ½ Monk level rounds per day severely limiting its utility but still, it's way better than what you're giving up - since you're not giving up much. Same with the other stuff; Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, you're giving up next to nothing.

[Karl Aegis]

Monks also have some pretty ambiguous wording on some of their abilities. Flurry of Blows says it requires you to use a full attack action, but doesn't specify if the ability counts as a full attack for purposes like pounce, two weapon fighting, additional natural attacks and the non-stacking extra attack from haste.

Oh and the Dungeon Master's Guide has the level 20 sample NPC Fighter hitting with the same accuracy on their final iterative attack as the level 20 sample Monk's first three attacks with their Flurry of Blows ability. Real classy.

[Coretron03]

Even if monks can beat uberchargers damage it doesn't really make the monk not suck. Even then, you seem to be pulling alot of stuff from pickle magisine which has a very good chance of being disallowed from a game. and the OP wasn't talking about whether monks are good in TO anyway.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm talking 3.5/pathfinder. But general works too

In Pathfinder if you know what you're doing (combo archetypes) the monk can be built to be fine.

Or just use the Unchained Monk.

[Eldariel]

Thank you.

This one is actually very easy to beat.

Explanation.

This ubercharger makes heavy use of reverse-engineering magic items.

Which is all our Monk wants.

1. Reverse engineer Scorpion Kata. Now you have the Scorpion weapon enchantment (flat 4,000 gp cost).

2. Take a single 3.5 Eberron or Dragon Magazine feat that expands your special Monk weapons with whatever weapon.

3. Enchant the lance this build uses with Aptitude (ToB) and Scorpion

Congratulations, this lance is now a special Monk weapon that does damage dice equal to your unarmed strike; while retaining all its other qualities.





Well, it again depends on the class/HD-based opportunity cost. Taking levels/feats/items/whatever in UA Strike-advancing features means they're not advancing anything else.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'd bet on the guy in cloth robes; he's most likely a spellcaster and/or someone with a trick up his sleeve that will win him the fight.


This thread was not in the D&D subforum when I posted in it, so there was NO reason to assume spellcasting.

Never mind that assuming anyone not in armor is a spellcaster is a pretty strange and unfounded assumption even in a D&D world, if you stop and think about what that would mean.




Also, this quote is a nice example of the Guy at the Gym fallacy/mentality.


Because someone compared two melee combatants based on some basic considerations? In the general roleplaying games section?

Oh no, heaven forbid!

[emeraldstreak]

Well, it again depends on the class/HD-based opportunity cost. Taking levels/feats/items/whatever in UA Strike-advancing features means they're not advancing anything else.



Costs:

- Scorpion (irrelevant, unlimited money TO)
- item/magic buffs for unarmed stike (irrelevant, unlimited money TO)
- Aptitude (relevant, because it is +1 = the build will lose something (its worst previous +1 enchant) to accommodate it)
- one Feat to be (ab)used by Aptitude

? at least one of its present levels (the most useless) has to be supplanted by unarmed strike class (Monk, Unarmed Swordsage). BAB won't be lost because Divine Power/TO. But a class feature or a bonus feat might be lost. I'll have to look in-depth to see which level(s) are best supplanted. As before, if the build is Lawful ok (might be by the looks of it) Martial Monk is strong choice to end up ahead in the feat department.

+unarmed strike damage dice

Overall, I fancy my chances. But without an in-depth look, it is a "Perhaps"






One thing that hasn't sufficiently been stated in this thread yet, is that Chaos Monk and Wild Monk (both Dragon Magazine) are significantly better than any Monk variants in the ordinary books. And then there's the silliness that is Martial Monk. And Chaos Monk is mostly compatible with either (Wild Monk and Chaos Monk both lose Abundant Step). Add Invisible Fist and you have a rather good set of abilities, though you still need to pick up Pounce somewhere (probably either Sphinx Claws or Pouncebarian).

Chaos Monk in particular is just Monk but one that gets some minor good stuff that makes it so much better. It gets an average ½ more attacks on level 1 than normal Monk and goes up +1 attack at level 9, +1.5 attacks at level 10, +0.5 at level 11 and +1.5 at level 15. Then there's the actually useful charge-maneuver in Erratic Advance (since you're Chaotic, you can easily pick up Barbie 1 for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy) with an actually useful daily allotment at Wis times. And then there's the Displacing Stance which gets really nice on level 12 - one of the extremely few abilities that grants you miss chance not negated by True Seeing. It takes a standard action to activate and only lasts ½ Monk level rounds per day severely limiting its utility but still, it's way better than what you're giving up - since you're not giving up much. Same with the other stuff; Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, you're giving up next to nothing.

+1

I believe traditional Monks were hurt badly by being fairly incompatible with Barbarians.

Lion Totem pounce Barbarians are a great match for Monks who want to flurry (and hit).

Wolf Totem trip Barbarians are a great match for Monks who want to deploy Decisive Strike's double damage with area-lockdown opportunity attack build.

Even less known things like Mad Foam Rager have great synergy with MAD classes.

[Pex]

While not outright putting into words "Yeah, monks suck. We're sorry." Pathfinder did improve the monk a great deal in one of the Ultimate books. Full BAB. Flurry of blows is an extra attack and later two extra attacks at max attack bonus with no penalty just because you're using it. You also get to pick the class features you want from a list as you gain levels. If I recall correctly you can use Dex for to hit and damage.

[Coretron03]

While not outright putting into words "Yeah, monks suck. We're sorry." Pathfinder did improve the monk a great deal in one of the Ultimate books. Full BAB. Flurry of blows is an extra attack and later two extra attacks at max attack bonus with no penalty just because you're using it. You also get to pick the class features you want from a list as you gain levels. If I recall correctly you can use Dex for to hit and damage.

I don't think you can use dex for damage and you can't pick and choose class features though it does sound like you talking about the unchained monk.

Also, since when does TO=infinite wealth? I mean, sure you can do wealth exploits but anyone can do them and if you have infinite wealth class features (except spell casting) don't really matter.

[Triskavanski]

The standard monk is a defensive class. Its got pretty much everything going for it to improve its defenses considerably, while its offensive capabilities are lacking. And People vastly prefer blowing crap up as opposed to being unblowablupish. Cause If you have infinite bombs, they will eventure blow up what cannot be blown up.


On the Bard/Monk thing.. I actually play bard more often when there are multiple roles that are not covered. Like in one game we're playing a three player game with a Witch, Warblade and then I chose Skald. Cause I do everything. I can heal, I can bash, I can tank. I can even literally carry the party. (Centaur.)


Or Archeologist Bard who can practically solo the game unlike most other classes where they are stopped by brick walls of plot development that they need a skill or spell.

[Coretron03]

Except they have a sucky armour class because they can't wear armour, they can't get high wis or dex and the scaling bonus is worse then enchancing armour. A pearl of power for your wizard so you can get mage armour is pretty good though. In the saves department they are beaten out in will saves by a cleric easy, going to be pretty close together for fort only winning on reflex saves. If pathfinder your average paladin would beat a monk in saves quite handily and unchained monks have sucky will saves.

[Deophaun]

The standard monk is a defensive class. Its got pretty much everything going for it to improve its defenses considerably, while its offensive capabilities are lacking. And People vastly prefer blowing crap up as opposed to being unblowablupish. Cause If you have infinite bombs, they will eventure blow up what cannot be blown up.
There's also the fact that if you're unblowableup but can't really blow anything else up, you can be safely ignored while the real threats are dealt with. That makes you a liability for inflating the CR, not an asset.

[emeraldstreak]

Well, it again depends on the class/HD-based opportunity cost. Taking levels/feats/items/whatever in UA Strike-advancing features means they're not advancing anything else.




Costs:

- Scorpion (irrelevant, unlimited money TO)
- item/magic buffs for unarmed stike (irrelevant, unlimited money TO)
- Aptitude (relevant, because it is +1 = the build will lose something (its worst previous +1 enchant) to accommodate it)
- one Feat to be (ab)used by Aptitude

? at least one of its present levels (the most useless) has to be supplanted by unarmed strike class (Monk, Unarmed Swordsage). BAB won't be lost because Divine Power/TO. But a class feature or a bonus feat might be lost. I'll have to look in-depth to see which level(s) are best supplanted. As before, if the build is Lawful ok (might be by the looks of it) Martial Monk is strong choice to end up ahead in the feat department.

+unarmed strike damage dice

Overall, I fancy my chances. But without an in-depth look, it is a "Perhaps"





So I had a bit more time to look into that build. A few takeouts:

- it begins neutral for a barbarian level, then goes indeed Lawful, raging through a Mantle of Rage item = means Martial Monk trickery is greenlighted

- it has really a lot of feats by custom Bloodline and others, which suits us just fine

- it is already using its weapon as a graft and advancing it by size. Quoting and highlighting



BASE: Knights lance 1d10-> 2d8large, 3d8huge (balanced A&E 96 enhancement via necklace of natural weapons if it looks expensive), 4d8gargantuan (strongarm bracers), 6d8collosal (expansion @Huge size), 8d8collosal+(expansion augmented @Gargantuan size), 12d8 platinum material [MoF 180], 16d8 Improved Natural Attack (grafted weapon) via Fanged Ring, 24d8 Warshaper 1, 32d8 Girallon arms chakra bind, 48d8 Totem Avatar chakra bind, 64d8 Monkey Grip, 96d8 Arms of the Naga [SS55] & swapped preferably DMM'd: 128d8 Arms of Plenty [LoM209] (with 42k Gloves of Man), 192d8 Sharptooth [SC187], and Earth Hammer [RoS162] via wand (temporarily negates the platinum material for its own boost but allows) + Mighty Wallop [RotD114] 256d8, Girallon's Blessing [SpC106] 384d8, Battlearms [DragMag356 48] 512d8, 768d8, Touchstone(Sunken City of Pazar) 1024d8, 1536d8 Enlarge Weapon (prior to expansion via RAW).

1. This is how people who aren't as nice as me stack size increases

2. Stacking as he does, the Monk's lance begins at 2d10 - exactly twice the lance's base, and always remains two steps ahead (twice the damage dice). By the end this is 3072d8 before any charge multiplication.

Overall, I'd say the build I linked is a lot closer to unquestionable RAW, and both times adding Monk improved them.

[Coretron03]

I recommend you make a new thread about this becuase A: More people interested in the discussion will read it B: It doesn't have much to do with this thread

[Lans]

A quick fix for monk is to keep giving him bonus feats, let him wear light armor, 6 skill points a level, and a full bab, and let him use his monk abilities + wisdom times per day

[Troacctid]

I've been very happy with the 5e Monk. I'm strongly considering just using it instead of the 3.5e version in my games from now on. It's super easy to port over.

[SirNibbles]

A quick fix for monk is to keep giving him bonus feats, let him wear light armor, 6 skill points a level, and a full bab, and let him use his monk abilities + wisdom times per day

Everything you mentioned besides light armour seems fine.
_

A Monk is pretty much an MMA fighter with some Far-East flavour. I think the proper thing to do (in addition to full BAB) would be to improve its grappling abilities as it levels. Unique grappling/pinning techniques would add to its abilities without ruining the flavour. Adding Wis to grapple checks would be good as well.

[Dagroth]

Everything you mentioned besides light armour seems fine.
_

A Monk is pretty much an MMA fighter with some Far-East flavour. I think the proper thing to do (in addition to full BAB) would be to improve its grappling abilities as it levels. Unique grappling/pinning techniques would add to its abilities without ruining the flavour. Adding Wis to grapple checks would be good as well.

There's already a Prestige Class for advanced Grappling in Complete Warrior.

[Coretron03]

They still need something for more AC though, like double the scaling of their ac bonus so it starts on 1 and ends up on 8 so its like plate armour at high levels or something equivalent.

[SirNibbles]

There's already a Prestige Class for advanced Grappling in Complete Warrior.

I hope you don't mean Reaping Mauler- the class that forces you to be small/medium and doesn't advance unarmed damage- is good enough for Monk to remain as is.

If you mean Monk could adapt some of those special grapples for the core class, I think it might work.

[Vaz]

So I had a bit more time to look into that build. A few takeouts:

- it begins neutral for a barbarian level, then goes indeed Lawful, raging through a Mantle of Rage item = means Martial Monk trickery is greenlighted

- it has really a lot of feats by custom Bloodline and others, which suits us just fine

- it is already using its weapon as a graft and advancing it by size. Quoting and highlighting



1. This is how people who aren't as nice as me stack size increases

2. Stacking as he does, the Monk's lance begins at 2d10 - exactly twice the lance's base, and always remains two steps ahead (twice the damage dice). By the end this is 3072d8 before any charge multiplication.

Overall, I'd say the build I linked is a lot closer to unquestionable RAW, and both times adding Monk improved them.

Throw those same resources near anywhere else in the game and the Monk is kibble. What are you proving again?

[Keral]

I'm not really that into melee classes and don't know them that well.

Certainly, monks are MAD, but I've found the Shiba protector (from Oriental adventures) to be an interesting 1 level dip.
It requires three feats and bab+5, and, unfortunately, 13 int. Also Human only.

But it allows you to add your wisdom modifier to attack and damage rolls.

Technically, one could forget about strenght and get the same benefits from wisdom. By focusing on wisdom the AC would be higher too.

[SirNibbles]

I'm not really that into melee classes and don't know them that well.

Certainly, monks are MAD, but I've found the Shiba protector (from Oriental adventures) to be an interesting 1 level dip.
It requires three feats and bab+5, and, unfortunately, 13 int. Also Human only.

But it allows you to add your wisdom modifier to attack and damage rolls.

Technically, one could forget about strenght and get the same benefits from wisdom. By focusing on wisdom the AC would be higher too.

Three useless feats, 13 Int, and a loss of BAB. If you're taking 6 Monk you're already losing 2 BAB, meaning you can only lose 1 more before you can't get 16. That means you're limited to taking a single Monk PrC and even then you're limited to 4 levels of it.

Shiba Protector is a trap.

[Deophaun]

Three useless feats, 13 Int, and a loss of BAB.
Iron Will can be obtained through an Otyugh Hole.
Alertness can be obtained through an Ioun Stone.
Combat Expertise can be obtained through monk ACFs, which means the 13 Int isn't required.

[Pleh]

I don't think you can use dex for damage and you can't pick and choose class features though it does sound like you talking about the unchained monk.

Also, since when does TO=infinite wealth? I mean, sure you can do wealth exploits but anyone can do them and if you have infinite wealth class features (except spell casting) don't really matter.

It's feat intensive, but doable. ToB has Shadow Blade that adds dex to damage. Thats adds, not replaces. Mix with combat reflexes and see if you can't find some way to extend the reach of your UAS.


I'm not really that into melee classes and don't know them that well.

Certainly, monks are MAD, but I've found the Shiba protector (from Oriental adventures) to be an interesting 1 level dip.
It requires three feats and bab+5, and, unfortunately, 13 int. Also Human only.

But it allows you to add your wisdom modifier to attack and damage rolls.

Technically, one could forget about strenght and get the same benefits from wisdom. By focusing on wisdom the AC would be higher too.

Shiba protector is really silly with the restrictions. But say you get there (excellent point was made that you don't have to spend feats) and add Shadow Blade and weapon finesse.

Now you add wis and dex to AC and to melee attack. Melee damage adds str, dex, and wis.

With combat reflexes (probably a bonus feat somewhere), you're getting to use these attacks more often.

Add Fists of the Forest (count your feats carefully, but it can be done) and now you add Con to AC as well.

Congrats, your unarmed, armorless, MAD monk is starting to synergize its own MADness

[Dagroth]

If you're going OA & Prestige Classes, you probably want to pick up Shou Disciple from Unapproachable East.

You can grab it on the way (it only needs +3 BAB, but it does need Dodge & Weapon Focus). But at least it gives full BAB and can get you Combat Reflexes & Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.

Unfortunately, it doesn't let you skip out on the feat prereqs. :smallmad:

[Stealth Marmot]

While notably awful, this is not the most egregious offense of the monk class. The worst offense is that it's not very good at what it's designed to do. It's not particularly good at smashing things with unarmed strikes. It's class abilities are barely related to the wuxia genre, and seem to be based on a single bad chop-sockey movie that someone saw in 1981. Even worse, it's signature class features don't work together: they have high mobility, but can't use it with Flurry. Not being able to use magic weapons or armor without jumping through hoops cuts them off from about 2/3rds of the Christmas Tree. It's not that they can't contribute to the party (they make decent pack animals and are good at corpse retrieval), it's that whatever it is they are supposed to be good at, they stink at it.

What I meant by "not contributing to the party in any significant way" is talking about the same thing you are mentioning. They can't do very good damage, which means they don't contribute very much in combat. If they contributed in other ways (healing damage, taking out creatures some other method, adding bonuses to your side or debuffing the opponents, etc.) that would be fine, but they don't.

The posts about optimizing Monk damage verse other classes however, in my opinion, miss the point entirely.

If the Monk was a well designed class it would not need advanced optimization in order to contribute meaningfully towards the party in some manner.

You should not need, repeat NEED to check outside sourcebooks of increasing obscurity to make a character workable, especially if you go so far as to play a "variant". Doing so basically says "Playing a Monk is fine as long as you don't actually play a Monk."

[Eldariel]

Core Monk can be about comparable to a Barbarian on high levels but sadly he depends on buffs he can't inherently access and obviously he's completely dependent on some means of Pounce since Mounted Charging isn't happening and Monks rely on full attacks for any amount of damage. Monk with access to Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Greater Magic Fang/Weapon & Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object is largely fine (hell, even level 20 you can Polymorph Any Object into Leonal and at least be a biped equipment user with Pounce; Medium but c'est la vie - though frankly, Monks are generally still best off as 12-Headed Hydras in spite of the cost of enhancing 12 heads separately). Not comparable to spellcasters but can keep up with mundanes to a reasonable degree.

Like, Monk with 14 Wis, 14 Dex, Mage Armor has 18 AC which is reasonable for low levels. Monk weapons suck early on, and sadly there's little to do about it other than bite your lip and somehow try to get by. Unarmed Strike gets reasonable once you qualify for Improved Natural Attack on level 6 - it's a 2d6 weapon at that point (worse than a bogstandard Greatsword let alone reach weapons but significantly better than anything the Monk had access to up until then). Coincidentally, on level 6 Core Monk finally gets Improved Trip, which is the one combat maneuver feat not affected by their ****ty BAB so as long as they solely max Strength, they can make great use of it. Of course, sadly enough, Monk weapons include no reach tripping weapons so there are some problems with the concept of a Monk Tripper. But it's the best they get so might as well make use of it.


I once statted out a Core Monk for 20 levels and this is what I came up with (written tongue-in-cheek since it's really not very good):
Human/Dwarf Monk 20 (depends on your score; human for skillz, Dwarf for conz)

Str max
Dex = Wis
Con 14+
Int/Cha dump

1. Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
12. Improved Grapple
15. Deflect Arrows
18. EWP: Spiked Chin (sic)

The basic idea, hit everything you can, stun whenever you can, get AoOs whenever you can, carry a reach weapon around wherever you can, always use your Unarmed Strikes on your own turn; only have tripping reach weapon for AoOs (Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist). Mite well take it earlier. Then you use your massive (lol) attack run to break faces with your massive (lol) unarmed damage. On tripped opponents. With Ability Focused Stunning Fist. Max Hide/Move Silently and just stay hidden whenever terrain allows. Obv Tumble, etc. Pick up a Tower Shield for when it's not applicable and stay in total cover 110% of the time.

Deflect Arrows and ram Leadership on level 6 if the feat is allowed; suddenly you fail 100% less with a Wizard to buff you. Oh, and pray to whatever deities you worship the party has a Wizard for Mage Armor and Greater Magic Weapon. Hell, if your DM is feeling generous, hire one.


Now you totally do epic damage with your epicz fists that have real high base die (which is why you needz Enlarg Przon for even moar) and on level 20 you can be Polymorphed into Outsider-forms (like Horned Devil or Leonal!) when others are fooling around with Shapechange and on level 17 you go sit on a fast time plane and contemplate life and get free boniz Wis (and Int and Cha) and...yeah, just invest in that damn equipment.

What you need is basically:
- Anything of Flying (real bad)
- Boots of Speed (extra attack + to hit; movement speed wasted but c'est la vie)
- Cloak of Resist, and stuff of Str, Dex, Wis and Con (just work the slot conflicts somehow; Core is stupid like that), Deflection & Natural Armor.
- Random toys like Cubes of Force and Rods of Cancellation and X of Teleportation and what-have-you.
- Probably some mount. They grant cover.
- Bracers of Armor eventually.
- Competence Ioun Stone
- AC Ioun Stone
- Your tripping weapon toy should prolly be Ghost Touch for obvious reasons.
- Heward's Handy Haversack full of handy stuff.


This gives you like...16/16/16/8/16/6 Dwarf to start off (36 point buy, I know, just roll with it, k?) that ends up at 32 Str/26 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And he'z alwayz large so he's actually at 34 Str/24 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And +5 Greater Magic Weapon. And +8 Bracers and +5 Def and +5 NA. So he haz liek 6d8+17 fistz of fury that attack at liek 15 BAB + 12 Str - 1 Size + 5 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste + 1 Competence = +34! So +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24. And Tripz for +4 moar.

And liek, his Trip-checks are +21 and stuff, and he threatens like a 20' area or something. And 8 AoOs and so on. And saves are like +26 Ref, +26 Fort, +28 Will. And AC is...I dunno. No idea, to be honest. 10+7 Dex+10 Wis+1 Insight+1 Haste+5 Deflection+5 Natural Armor+8 Armor = 47. Now, it's worth noting that he's pretty much blown his WBL on just numeric boosters but c'est la vie of a Monk.

Oh, and Stunning Fist DC is 32. I suppose that's remotely decent. I mean, not something anything relevant would fail (it'd be immune anyways), but still. And the HP is 253. Oh, and Hide/Move Silently/Tumble are the maxed skills 'cause what the hey, he has no skill points anyways. Guess you'll take those 5 ranks in Balance but that's about it.
If you build around Polymorph Any Object, you can do better, but sadly you get Outsider forms only on level 20 and you have to somehow access the spell to use it anyways. Dumping physicals a bit would allow maxing out Wis and getting some reasonable Int going on as well but sadly that would leave you even more useless than normal for the first ~7-15 levels - and on the levels where you finally begin contributing next to the other martial characters casters do their hyperspace jump ahead.

Leonal Monk charge with Greater Magic Fang for every natural weapon is actually pretty good: +39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+29 for 4d8+19 & +33/+33/+33/+343 for 1d6+12 & +33 for 1d8+12. 12-Headed Hydra, being Huge, would of course benefit even more offering 8d8+17 UA damage dice and 2d6+11 Bites. Monk actually also offsets Hydra's poor movement speed and Tongue of Sun and Moon makes it even able to communicate! So Hydra Monk is the best Monk (even 12 AoOs!). Though Hydra doesn't actually have Pounce so it's iffy if Monk's UA Full Attacks can be performed; arguably they can be done with the Heads and the letter of the rule says "Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." so perhaps. Of course, sadly the Dex is pretty low but can't have it all. Leonal or particularly Cornugon/Planetar offers far greater defensive potential but a level 20 martial's primary prowess lies in their offense. Note that both Hydra and Leonal are reliant on a magic item for flight. Cornugon, Planetar, various Sphinxes and company would offer it natively, but come with other restrictions (forms without Pounce are really problematic even if they offer the highest numbers).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Red Slaad is the other biped with Pounce. It's even Large for slightly superior numbers on Unarmed Strikes, but sadly has much lower base Strength than Leonals so overall it comes out behind. The other options are really just Androsphinx (or Gyno/Hieraco but they're largely inferior), Dragonne, Hellcat, Wereraptor, Deinonychus, Griffon, Lammasu (Golden Protector would be nice but it's templated; ask DM), Dire Lion (Dire Tiger has 1 HD too much for Polymorph; PAO too but can ask DM) and the standard feline animals (Lion/Leopard/Tiger). 12-Headed Hydra is just the best if you can do UA Strikes in lieu of the Bites (bludgeoning with the heads or whatever). Though there's something to be said for Red Slaad being Large and able to use reach weapons for e.g. tripping - Hydra only has 10' reach while Red Slaad can threaten 20' area.

This would be so much easier with shapechange; just shift into a form with Pounce to charge and at the end of turn shift to some Huge Biped to threaten a 30' area around you. Or Magic Jar the Tarrasque and shift to your base form threatening that 60' reach area with your Spiked Chain-wielding Tarrasque body. Or have that Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone to remove the need for breathing and turn into a Kraken/Giant Squid. You get innate 60' tentacles! And you have "arms" so you can always ask your DM if you can wield reach weapons!

[SirNibbles]

It's feat intensive, but doable. ToB has Shadow Blade that adds dex to damage. Thats adds, not replaces. Mix with combat reflexes and see if you can't find some way to extend the reach of your UAS.



Shiba protector is really silly with the restrictions. But say you get there (excellent point was made that you don't have to spend feats) and add Shadow Blade and weapon finesse.

Now you add wis and dex to AC and to melee attack. Melee damage adds str, dex, and wis.

With combat reflexes (probably a bonus feat somewhere), you're getting to use these attacks more often.

Add Fists of the Forest (count your feats carefully, but it can be done) and now you add Con to AC as well.

Congrats, your unarmed, armorless, MAD monk is starting to synergize its own MADness

Fist of the Forest does not stack with Monk's AC bonus.

The bonus is coming from the FOTF class ability AC Bonus (Ex). You are already getting a bonus from Monk class ability AC Bonus (Ex). The same ability does not stack with itself.

From the SRD: "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified."

If you really want the AC bonuses, take a level of Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist page 30) to add +Wis and +Dex to AC. This will make you less MAD and give you more bonus than Fist of the Forest.

[Darrin]

The bonus is coming from the FOTF class ability AC Bonus (Ex). You are already getting a bonus from Monk class ability AC Bonus (Ex). The same ability does not stack with itself.


It's ambiguous. The stacking rules don't cover what happens when a not-so-smart designer gives the same name to two different abilities. There's an argument that it's two different sources with the same name.

[Pleh]

I picked it up from the Monk Handbook by dman11235 over on BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0).

It gave no warning that the bonuses wouldn't stack, so I never gave it a second thought. I can see why there would be room for contention on the ruling. I guess it kind of goes back to the same, "Ask your DM if" scenario where honestly the Monk just needs all the favorable interpretations it can get.

After all, if you let the FOTF Monk stack them all, they get Dex, Wis, and Con to AC and even a MAD character should have enough AC by that point to be equivalent to some decent armor. Maybe not magic armor, but with Monks have to take what they can get (yes, Darrin, it is a point of weakness that they have to).

But help me out with the logic, SirNibbles. If you gain Sneak Attack by the same name from multiple sources, the damage dice stack. The rules explicitly say they do, so that might be an exception, but I can't think of all that many class features that have the same name that it seems clear that the intention was for them not to stack. Not to mention that the AC Bonus from both classes in this case seem to be untyped (which usually stacks, doesn't it?)

[Dagroth]

Fist of the Forest does not stack with Monk's AC bonus.

The bonus is coming from the FOTF class ability AC Bonus (Ex). You are already getting a bonus from Monk class ability AC Bonus (Ex). The same ability does not stack with itself.

From the SRD: "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified."

If you really want the AC bonuses, take a level of Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist page 30) to add +Wis and +Dex to AC. This will make you less MAD and give you more bonus than Fist of the Forest.

The Monk & Fist of the Forest AC bonuses are untyped. They have different sources (one is from Wis, the other is from Con). Therefore, they stack.

Looking at the class, and the garbage feats you have to throw in to get into it, I believe it's pretty RAI for the bonuses to stack... even if you don't agree they are untyped. (They aren't "Armor", "Enhancement", "Luck", "Insight", etc.)

Theoretically, you could get two levels of Monk, four levels of Sorcerer (or Beguiler... but you want Sorcerer for Mage Armor) and get Aesthetic Mage for Cha-to-AC. Then get two levels of Unarmed Swordsage for Wis-to-AC, then Fist of the Forest for Con-to-AC. You could also take Battledancer instead of Monk & Sorcerer to get your Cha-to-AC, but then you're not a Monk, you're even worse than a Monk.

If you want to push it, get two levels of Monk and get Incardine Monk or Kung Fu Genius for Int-to-AC. Then get two levels of Unarmed Swordsage for Wis-to-AC. Then switch alignments to Chaotic and get a level of Battledancer for Cha-to-AC and finally get Fist of the Forest for Con-to-AC.

The only stat that's not adding to your AC is Str. :smallcool:


I picked it up from the Monk Handbook by dman11235 over on BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0).

It gave no warning that the bonuses wouldn't stack, so I never gave it a second thought. I can see why there would be room for contention on the ruling. I guess it kind of goes back to the same, "Ask your DM if" scenario where honestly the Monk just needs all the favorable interpretations it can get.

After all, if you let the FOTF Monk stack them all, they get Dex, Wis, and Con to AC and even a MAD character should have enough AC by that point to be equivalent to some decent armor. Maybe not magic armor, but with Monks have to take what they can get (yes, Darrin, it is a point of weakness that they have to).

But help me out with the logic, SirNibbles. If you gain Sneak Attack by the same name from multiple sources, the damage dice stack. The rules explicitly say they do, so that might be an exception, but I can't think of all that many class features that have the same name that it seems clear that the intention was for them not to stack. Not to mention that the AC Bonus from both classes in this case seem to be untyped (which usually stacks, doesn't it?)

Sneak Attack damage stacks because it is also an Untyped Bonus.

[SirNibbles]

I picked it up from the Monk Handbook by dman11235 over on BrilliantGameologists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0).

It gave no warning that the bonuses wouldn't stack, so I never gave it a second thought. I can see why there would be room for contention on the ruling. I guess it kind of goes back to the same, "Ask your DM if" scenario where honestly the Monk just needs all the favorable interpretations it can get.

After all, if you let the FOTF Monk stack them all, they get Dex, Wis, and Con to AC and even a MAD character should have enough AC by that point to be equivalent to some decent armor. Maybe not magic armor, but with Monks have to take what they can get (yes, Darrin, it is a point of weakness that they have to).

But help me out with the logic, SirNibbles. If you gain Sneak Attack by the same name from multiple sources, the damage dice stack. The rules explicitly say they do, so that might be an exception, but I can't think of all that many class features that have the same name that it seems clear that the intention was for them not to stack. Not to mention that the AC Bonus from both classes in this case seem to be untyped (which usually stacks, doesn't it?)

"In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack..."

Sneak Attack isn't a modifier- it is its own special effect that deals damage.

Honestly, as a DM I'd have no problem allowing FOTF to stack with Monk's AC bonus. I'm just pointing out that according to a strict RAW interpretation it would not stack.

[Dagroth]

"In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack..."

Sneak Attack isn't a modifier- it is its own special effect that deals damage.

Honestly, as a DM I'd have no problem allowing FOTF to stack with Monk's AC bonus. I'm just pointing out that according to a strict RAW interpretation it would not stack.

Again, they are Untyped Bonuses from different sources. The different sources either being Different Classes, or Different Stats, your choice.

Personally, I go with Different Stats... otherwise you could get Monk & Swordsage for (Wis X 2)-to-AC

[SirNibbles]

The Monk & Fist of the Forest AC bonuses are untyped. They have different sources (one is from Wis, the other is from Con). Therefore, they stack.

The source is the ability itself. In the same way that having the same spell cast on you twice, once by a Good Cleric to receive a Sacred bonus and once by an Evil Cleric to receive a Profane bonus, does not work, you don't get the benefits of the same effect just because the bonuses are different.

[flappeercraft]

Without really reading the thread as its a bit long, its weak because its abilities are not synergystic between each other and also plain out weaker than that other classes could get. Also they try work with no magic weapons on armor on a game where they are overpowering in some cases compared to not having any. Of course the occasional monk dip can be good but you're usually better off with a Monk's belt which gets you Wis to AC which is way better as you can get other classes or for that matter instead become an unarmed swordsage.

[Dagroth]

The source is the ability itself. In the same way that having the same spell cast on you twice, once by a Good Cleric to receive a Sacred bonus and once by an Evil Cleric to receive a Profane bonus, does not work, you don't get the benefits of the same effect just because the bonuses are different.

Actually...

There is nothing that says Sacred and Profane bonuses do not stack with each other. In fact, it's pretty-much RAW that they do stack.

Now, you may be correct in your description of a spell providing a sacred or profane bonus not stacking...

But again, the AC bonus from these classes is an untyped bonus coming from different sources.

The source is the Stat, not the Class Ability. Otherwise, Wis-to-AC would not stack with Dex-to-AC.

To take this from a different angle...

Would you say a Monk (Wis-to-AC) who takes the Saint template (gives Wis-to-AC as an Insight Bonus) would have (Wis x 2)-to AC?

[Troacctid]

No, the source is the ability, but since it is two different abilities, it stacks.

[Dagroth]

No, the source is the ability, but since it is two different abilities, it stacks.

The ability, which is a Class ability. Yeah, I agree that's the other way you can look at it. It does lead to the Monk-1/Swordsage-2 giving (Wis x 2)-to-AC though.

[SirNibbles]

Actually...

There is nothing that says Sacred and Profane bonuses do not stack with each other. In fact, it's pretty-much RAW that they do stack.

Now, you may be correct in your description of a spell providing a sacred or profane bonus not stacking...

But again, the AC bonus from these classes is an untyped bonus coming from different sources.

The source is the Stat, not the Class Ability. Otherwise, Wis-to-AC would not stack with Dex-to-AC.

To take this from a different angle...

Would you say a Monk (Wis-to-AC) who takes the Saint template (gives Wis-to-AC as an Insight Bonus) would have (Wis x 2)-to AC?

I never said Sacred and Profane don't stack. I was saying you can't cast/receive the same spell twice to get both a Sacred and Profane bonus from it because same-source stacking is disallowed.

It comes down to whether you think the abilities of the same name are actually the same ability. In this case I would say they are, like the same spell being cast twice and trying to get two stacking bonuses from it. You may disagree, and I think your interpretation is perfectly reasonable.

Yes, the Saint would have 2x Wis to AC because the sources are different (Saint's Armor Class class ability and Monk's AC Bonus class ability) and the bonus types are different (Untyped and Insight).

Either way, we're getting a bit off the main topic of this thread and we should continue in a new thread, if at all.

[Barbarian Horde]

I think VoP makes monk viable.

[Troacctid]

The ability, which is a Class ability. Yeah, I agree that's the other way you can look at it. It does lead to the Monk-1/Swordsage-2 giving (Wis x 2)-to-AC though.
No it doesn't, they have mutually exclusive conditions. (You cannot be wearing light armor and no armor at the same time.)

[Dagroth]

I think VoP makes monk viable.

Still can't deal with flying enemies. There are a number of other issues with VoP that have been covered in many other threads.

Yes, it's helpful... but still not nearly as good as WBL at higher levels.

[Zanos]

I think VoP makes monk viable.
You're severely underestimating the power of WBL then. It's probably the monks best feature.

Why, you could even use it to UMD partially charged wands.

[Efrate]

VoP monk is playable, but it is still far from good. You are amazing defensively, but defense doesn't win battle or make you a threat worth notice in 3.5. 20 levels VoP net you +5 magic UA and +8 stregnth and some other stats. You get +9 damage and to hit, which is nice and makes you almost equal a full BaB class with some strength gear, but with flurry being limited to a full round action its more often than not +9 damage at level 20 when average HP is I think like 400?

You get a bunch of surviving stuff, but that still doesn't make you enough of a threat to merit notice. True Seeing is nice, as is regeneration, but you still do not propose a threat and can't be the highly mobile combatant with any actual combat impact. Short of a full line of buffs from your caster buddies.

A fighter at least can have enough magic goodies to contribute in some fashion. A mind blank item, a flying item, ability to overcome more than just DR/magic, and he likely gets more + to damage from weapon spec line, his +5 weapon, his strength bonus which is likely higher than yours still, and power attack so he can easily hit for + 20 or more damage without trying on his single hit, or swift action teleport in with an anklet of translocation or something and get a full attack to put out a decent amount of DPS so he becomes a threat. And if they swing at him, his AC is going to close if not higher than yours plus he likely has concealment which is just flat out better than AC most of the time.

[Malroth]

Vop as written is pretty much the worst trap a monk can fall into. To be fair the bonuses are nice and It would be my #1 pick for a monk if utility magic items were still allowed with it. But as is, Monks need out of class magic to deal with Fliers, Invisible foes, Incoporeal foes, Save or Loose effects, Hostile terrain, Enemy Ranged Attacks, Most DR, All Regeneration, and the numerous other problems an Adventuring hero finds himself in.

[Mordaedil]

Vop as written is pretty much the worst trap a monk can fall into. To be fair the bonuses are nice and It would be my #1 pick for a monk if utility magic items were still allowed with it. But as is, Monks need out of class magic to deal with Fliers, Invisible foes, Incoporeal foes, Save or Loose effects, Hostile terrain, Enemy Ranged Attacks, Most DR, All Regeneration, and the numerous other problems an Adventuring hero finds himself in.
You know, I'd be okay with monks being to fly and shoot ki-blasts like Goku instead of getting slow-fall and stunning fist.

[Lord Raziere]

You know, I'd be okay with monks being to fly and shoot ki-blasts like Goku instead of getting slow-fall and stunning fist.

Yeah, fighter has the excuse of going for a down to earth "realistic fighter" thing for people who want that, but the monk has no such excuse. its already wuxia as all get out, it just doesn't do it enough to be awesome.

[Pleh]

Monks are WAY better suited to the ToB "magic of martial" fluff than any other Martial. Isn't that basically how most martial arts heroes do it? Dude studies like a wizard for centuries and learns pugilistic casting?

[Pugwampy]

This thread has inspired me to buff the monk .

Might i draw your attention to this .

http://www.vallusgames.com/books/Pathfinder%20-%20Undefeatable%209%20-%20Monks.pdf

[Eldariel]

Monks are WAY better suited to the ToB "magic of martial" fluff than any other Martial. Isn't that basically how most martial arts heroes do it? Dude studies like a wizard for centuries and learns pugilistic casting?

Coincidentally the "Monk"-class in ToB, Swordsage, is the only one that gets magical abilities too.

[emeraldstreak]

Core Monk can be about comparable to a Barbarian on high levels but sadly he depends on buffs he can't inherently access and obviously he's completely dependent on some means of Pounce since Mounted Charging isn't happening and Monks rely on full attacks for any amount of damage. Monk with access to Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Greater Magic Fang/Weapon & Polymorph/Polymorph Any Object is largely fine (hell, even level 20 you can Polymorph Any Object into Leonal and at least be a biped equipment user with Pounce; Medium but c'est la vie - though frankly, Monks are generally still best off as 12-Headed Hydras in spite of the cost of enhancing 12 heads separately). Not comparable to spellcasters but can keep up with mundanes to a reasonable degree.

Like, Monk with 14 Wis, 14 Dex, Mage Armor has 18 AC which is reasonable for low levels. Monk weapons suck early on, and sadly there's little to do about it other than bite your lip and somehow try to get by. Unarmed Strike gets reasonable once you qualify for Improved Natural Attack on level 6 - it's a 2d6 weapon at that point (worse than a bogstandard Greatsword let alone reach weapons but significantly better than anything the Monk had access to up until then). Coincidentally, on level 6 Core Monk finally gets Improved Trip, which is the one combat maneuver feat not affected by their ****ty BAB so as long as they solely max Strength, they can make great use of it. Of course, sadly enough, Monk weapons include no reach tripping weapons so there are some problems with the concept of a Monk Tripper. But it's the best they get so might as well make use of it.


I once statted out a Core Monk for 20 levels and this is what I came up with (written tongue-in-cheek since it's really not very good):
Human/Dwarf Monk 20 (depends on your score; human for skillz, Dwarf for conz)

Str max
Dex = Wis
Con 14+
Int/Cha dump

1. Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
12. Improved Grapple
15. Deflect Arrows
18. EWP: Spiked Chin (sic)

The basic idea, hit everything you can, stun whenever you can, get AoOs whenever you can, carry a reach weapon around wherever you can, always use your Unarmed Strikes on your own turn; only have tripping reach weapon for AoOs (Spiked Chin is a good option; may have something to do with Beardfist). Mite well take it earlier. Then you use your massive (lol) attack run to break faces with your massive (lol) unarmed damage. On tripped opponents. With Ability Focused Stunning Fist. Max Hide/Move Silently and just stay hidden whenever terrain allows. Obv Tumble, etc. Pick up a Tower Shield for when it's not applicable and stay in total cover 110% of the time.

Deflect Arrows and ram Leadership on level 6 if the feat is allowed; suddenly you fail 100% less with a Wizard to buff you. Oh, and pray to whatever deities you worship the party has a Wizard for Mage Armor and Greater Magic Weapon. Hell, if your DM is feeling generous, hire one.


Now you totally do epic damage with your epicz fists that have real high base die (which is why you needz Enlarg Przon for even moar) and on level 20 you can be Polymorphed into Outsider-forms (like Horned Devil or Leonal!) when others are fooling around with Shapechange and on level 17 you go sit on a fast time plane and contemplate life and get free boniz Wis (and Int and Cha) and...yeah, just invest in that damn equipment.

What you need is basically:
- Anything of Flying (real bad)
- Boots of Speed (extra attack + to hit; movement speed wasted but c'est la vie)
- Cloak of Resist, and stuff of Str, Dex, Wis and Con (just work the slot conflicts somehow; Core is stupid like that), Deflection & Natural Armor.
- Random toys like Cubes of Force and Rods of Cancellation and X of Teleportation and what-have-you.
- Probably some mount. They grant cover.
- Bracers of Armor eventually.
- Competence Ioun Stone
- AC Ioun Stone
- Your tripping weapon toy should prolly be Ghost Touch for obvious reasons.
- Heward's Handy Haversack full of handy stuff.


This gives you like...16/16/16/8/16/6 Dwarf to start off (36 point buy, I know, just roll with it, k?) that ends up at 32 Str/26 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And he'z alwayz large so he's actually at 34 Str/24 Dex/26 Con/12 Int/30 Wis/10 Cha. And +5 Greater Magic Weapon. And +8 Bracers and +5 Def and +5 NA. So he haz liek 6d8+17 fistz of fury that attack at liek 15 BAB + 12 Str - 1 Size + 5 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Haste + 1 Competence = +34! So +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24. And Tripz for +4 moar.

And liek, his Trip-checks are +21 and stuff, and he threatens like a 20' area or something. And 8 AoOs and so on. And saves are like +26 Ref, +26 Fort, +28 Will. And AC is...I dunno. No idea, to be honest. 10+7 Dex+10 Wis+1 Insight+1 Haste+5 Deflection+5 Natural Armor+8 Armor = 47. Now, it's worth noting that he's pretty much blown his WBL on just numeric boosters but c'est la vie of a Monk.

Oh, and Stunning Fist DC is 32. I suppose that's remotely decent. I mean, not something anything relevant would fail (it'd be immune anyways), but still. And the HP is 253. Oh, and Hide/Move Silently/Tumble are the maxed skills 'cause what the hey, he has no skill points anyways. Guess you'll take those 5 ranks in Balance but that's about it.
If you build around Polymorph Any Object, you can do better, but sadly you get Outsider forms only on level 20 and you have to somehow access the spell to use it anyways. Dumping physicals a bit would allow maxing out Wis and getting some reasonable Int going on as well but sadly that would leave you even more useless than normal for the first ~7-15 levels - and on the levels where you finally begin contributing next to the other martial characters casters do their hyperspace jump ahead.

Leonal Monk charge with Greater Magic Fang for every natural weapon is actually pretty good: +39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+29 for 4d8+19 & +33/+33/+33/+343 for 1d6+12 & +33 for 1d8+12. 12-Headed Hydra, being Huge, would of course benefit even more offering 8d8+17 UA damage dice and 2d6+11 Bites. Monk actually also offsets Hydra's poor movement speed and Tongue of Sun and Moon makes it even able to communicate! So Hydra Monk is the best Monk (even 12 AoOs!). Though Hydra doesn't actually have Pounce so it's iffy if Monk's UA Full Attacks can be performed; arguably they can be done with the Heads and the letter of the rule says "Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." so perhaps. Of course, sadly the Dex is pretty low but can't have it all. Leonal or particularly Cornugon/Planetar offers far greater defensive potential but a level 20 martial's primary prowess lies in their offense. Note that both Hydra and Leonal are reliant on a magic item for flight. Cornugon, Planetar, various Sphinxes and company would offer it natively, but come with other restrictions (forms without Pounce are really problematic even if they offer the highest numbers).

EDIT: Oh yeah, Red Slaad is the other biped with Pounce. It's even Large for slightly superior numbers on Unarmed Strikes, but sadly has much lower base Strength than Leonals so overall it comes out behind. The other options are really just Androsphinx (or Gyno/Hieraco but they're largely inferior), Dragonne, Hellcat, Wereraptor, Deinonychus, Griffon, Lammasu (Golden Protector would be nice but it's templated; ask DM), Dire Lion (Dire Tiger has 1 HD too much for Polymorph; PAO too but can ask DM) and the standard feline animals (Lion/Leopard/Tiger). 12-Headed Hydra is just the best if you can do UA Strikes in lieu of the Bites (bludgeoning with the heads or whatever). Though there's something to be said for Red Slaad being Large and able to use reach weapons for e.g. tripping - Hydra only has 10' reach while Red Slaad can threaten 20' area.

This would be so much easier with shapechange; just shift into a form with Pounce to charge and at the end of turn shift to some Huge Biped to threaten a 30' area around you. Or Magic Jar the Tarrasque and shift to your base form threatening that 60' reach area with your Spiked Chain-wielding Tarrasque body. Or have that Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone to remove the need for breathing and turn into a Kraken/Giant Squid. You get innate 60' tentacles! And you have "arms" so you can always ask your DM if you can wield reach weapons!

Note that Polymorph Any Object lists three kingdoms only (for the +5), without an "etc." unlike other rows. Everything other than constructs, maybe elementals, undead, and plants falls into the Animal Kingdom, so getting 9+ can be done with Int and size. By PHB RAW, Medium Outsider forms become available the moment you have 1200gp in a metropolis.

Also, being in the same type doesn't mean you are in the same group or related. For example, humans and kobolds share type, but are neither in the same group (mammal v reptile) nor related. A 20th level Monk isn't necessarily getting any additional bonuses over the kingdom's +5 towards Outsiders he always had.

[Eldariel]

Note that Polymorph Any Object lists three kingdoms only (for the +5), without an "etc." unlike other rows. Everything other than constructs, maybe elementals, undead, and plants falls into the Animal Kingdom, so getting 9+ can be done with Int and size. By PHB RAW, Medium Outsider forms become available the moment you have 1200gp in a metropolis.

Also, being in the same type doesn't mean you are in the same group or related. For example, humans and kobolds share type, but are neither in the same group (mammal v reptile) nor related. A 20th level Monk isn't necessarily getting any additional bonuses over the kingdom's +5 towards Outsiders he always had.

Well, there's always the doublecast solution depending on the reading being used. But yes, there's a lot of room for interpretation in the individual casting and its duration. Relatedness with Outsiders in particular is a rather interesting question that goes way beyond RAW Core material into the fluff of the world and the ecology and essence of Outsiders in any given settings, though size and intelligence are at least rather clear.

And yeah, RAW it's available for 1200gp but that requires the availability of a capable and willing retailer selling such service, which is quite likely to be quite the hurdle in most campaign settings (except maybe FR where every hamlet has those local level 20 casters).