protecting from implosion

[Braininthejar2]

What ways are there?

Does talisman of undying fortitude help? (also, does it work as intended, or is the description faulty?)

[Crake]

Undead are arguably immune, since they cannot be affected by anything requiring a fortitude save unless it can also target an object. I could also see an argument of the target section overriding that immunity, as most undead are corporeal, and incorporeal creatures on their own are already immune (as are gaseous creatures).

If you're wondering if there's something like death ward that can protect you? There isn't as far as I'm aware. The spell is not a death effect, it is simply crushing you into nonexistence. The spell states the only two things that can save you (apart from not being a creature I suppose), and that's being in gaseous form, or being incorporeal, or otherwise just having an incredible fortitude save and something like steadfast determination to ensure you don't fail on a 1.

[Deophaun]

A spellblade would do it.

[Necroticplague]

Well, let's look at each part of it:

Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.
So, there are several easy ways around this:
1. Spell Resistance. Shapechanging into a Golem for Spell Immunity stops it in its tracks. Less extreme SR should also be able to stop it if you can get it high enough.
2. Only corporeal creatures are valid targets. Ghostform spell gets around this handily.
3. It targets a finite amount of creatures. As a result, Swarms are unharmed.
4. It allows a FORT save, and only effects creatures. Thus, any creature without a CON score (such as undead and non-living constructs), is immune.
5. It targets creatures, which means Spellblades and Spell Turning can protect you. +1 Poisoned Ring Spellblades are useful and not too expensive by the time you might be facing Implosions.

[flappeercraft]

I second on what Necroticplague said but also look at the range, if you stay far away and have someone kill them from afar you should be fine, then there is the fact that it is a concentration spell meaning that if you attack the caster and interrupt it, its over unless he casts it again on his next turn.

[Troacctid]

death attack: A spell or special ability that instantly slays the target, such as finger of death. Neither raise dead nor reincarnation can grant life to a creature slain by a death attack, though resurrection and more powerful effects can.
Seems to me Implosion should be blocked by all the usual things that block death attacks.

[Braininthejar2]

These are usually clearly labeled.

[lord_khaine]

As the brain says, all death attacks instantly slays the target, but not all attacks that instantly slays their target is a death attack.

((and shuush! yes.. you who are about to point out obscure death spell nr 237.. dont! im watching you))

[Venger]

Undead are arguably immune, since they cannot be affected by anything requiring a fortitude save unless it can also target an object. I could also see an argument of the target section overriding that immunity, as most undead are corporeal, and incorporeal creatures on their own are already immune (as are gaseous creatures).

If you're wondering if there's something like death ward that can protect you? There isn't as far as I'm aware. The spell is not a death effect, it is simply crushing you into nonexistence. The spell states the only two things that can save you (apart from not being a creature I suppose), and that's being in gaseous form, or being incorporeal, or otherwise just having an incredible fortitude save and something like steadfast determination to ensure you don't fail on a 1.

It's an effect that allows a fortitude save that does not also affect objects. I don't see a reading where you could legally target an undead with this spell. Am I missing something?


Seems to me Implosion should be blocked by all the usual things that block death attacks.
both the things the glossary refers to as "death attacks" are actually death effects so I gather it's talking about those. implosion, as mentioned, isn't a death effect, so stuff like death ward wouldn't work.

the glossary just has to be as unhelpful as possible, it had to use the phrase "death attack" and everything when that's already a defined game term. death attack is a death effect.

aside from the aforementioned methods of protection, you might pursue magic immunity through shapechanging into something like a willowisp, or becoming immune to fort saves by shapechanging into a zern or being 10th level master transmogrifist

[Necroticplague]

It's an effect that allows a fortitude save that does not also affect objects. I don't see a reading where you could legally target an undead with this spell. Am I missing something?

Well, you can technically legally target them, it just wouldn't do anything. As corporeal creatures, they're valid targets, but as immune creatures, it doesn't do anything to them.

[Venger]

Well, you can technically legally target them, it just wouldn't do anything. As corporeal creatures, they're valid targets, but as immune creatures, it doesn't do anything to them.

oh, I see. yeah that's true. thanks for clarifying

[Troacctid]

These are usually clearly labeled.
Yes, but they don't need to be. Any effect that instantly slays a target is still a death effect.

[Mr Adventurer]

Like a coup de grace with a rusty axe?

OT, Spell Turning could help, or Elminster's Effulgent Epuration.

[Deophaun]

Yes, but they don't need to be. Any effect that instantly slays a target is still a death effect.
DM: That's it! Rocks fall, everyone dies!
Player: I have death ward.
DM: I hate you all.

[Troacctid]

Damage doesn't instantly slay the target, it just reduces their hit points.

[Mr Adventurer]

Damage doesn't instantly slay the target, it just reduces their hit points.

Coup de grace includes a Fort save or die though which is obviously what I was getting at.

EDIT: same applies to Massive Damage saves.

[Crake]

Well, you can technically legally target them, it just wouldn't do anything. As corporeal creatures, they're valid targets, but as immune creatures, it doesn't do anything to them.


oh, I see. yeah that's true. thanks for clarifying

I was more referring to the fact that undead state they are immune to anything that requires a fort save unless it also can target an object, a general rule, but implosion can target any corporeal creature, that being the more specific rule overriding the undead's immunity. I mean, let's be honest, what is it about an undead's anatomy that prevents it from being imploded? If it couldn't affect creatures without a con score, it would have said "one living corporeal creature/round"

[Necroticplague]

I was more referring to the fact that undead state they are immune to anything that requires a fort save unless it also can target an object, a general rule, but implosion can target any corporeal creature, that being the more specific rule overriding the undead's immunity. I mean, let's be honest, what is it about an undead's anatomy that prevents it from being imploded? If it couldn't affect creatures without a con score, it would have said "one living corporeal creature/round"

1. Them being valid targets in no way contradicts them being immune, as i pointed out earlier. It's just like how a human with Mind Blank is a valid target for Charm Person, it just doesn't do anything.
2. If lines stating who is effected overid immunity lines, then all immunities would be useless. Thus, this is a highly questionable interpretation of the rules, and thus likely to be false.
3.The same thing that prevents them from being turned into a frog, effected by a disease, poisoned, or similar.

[Zombimode]

Yes, but they don't need to be. Any effect that instantly slays a target is still a death effect.

Do you have a rules base for this? Because you can't reach that conclusion from just the terms.

[flappeercraft]

Yes, but they don't need to be. Any effect that instantly slays a target is still a death effect.

Not necessarily. Its like saying that all Golden Retrievers are Dogs therefore all Dogs are Golden Retrievers.

[Mordaedil]

both the things the glossary refers to as "death attacks" are actually death effects so I gather it's talking about those. implosion, as mentioned, isn't a death effect, so stuff like death ward wouldn't work.
In that case, Death Ward would work against only 5 spells in Core. And there'd be a bunch that circumvent it by just doing just as good of a job.

[Venger]

In that case, Death Ward would work against only 5 spells in Core. And there'd be a bunch that circumvent it by just doing just as good of a job.
Yes. That is correct. It doesn't block a lot of spells. Its primary use is protecting you from energy drain.

[Psyren]

In that case, Death Ward would work against only 5 spells in Core. And there'd be a bunch that circumvent it by just doing just as good of a job.

The primary use of death ward is defending against negative levels and energy draining monsters like vampires, wights and succubi. [Death] spells, while obviously dangerous, have more numerous defenses against them too.

[Inevitability]

Get your fortitude save arbitrarily high, then add Steadfast Determination?

[Zanos]

In that case, Death Ward would work against only 5 spells in Core. And there'd be a bunch that circumvent it by just doing just as good of a job.
There might only be 5 death spells, but there are more monster abilities that are labeled as death effects, and death ward protects against other things as mentioned.