Build a Sorcerer Warmage Dread Necromancer Beguiler.

[Grim Reader]

So after thinking about the tiering discussion in the other thread a bit, I am left with a notion:

A Sorcerer can be built to cover the core competency of the Warmage, blasting. As the Mailman shows us, it can be much better at it than the Warmage. But it seems to me, a Sorcerer can cover the general blasting job without investing all its resources. And a Sorcerer can cover the minionmancy of the Dread Necromancer without investing all its resources. The Beguiler probably takes more resources to cover, it combines enchanting with some battlefield control and illusions.

I don't think a Sorcerer can be built that completely covers the Necromancer or the Beguiler, like it can dominate the Warmage. The first to have more to them than their core areas. But all three fixed-list casters have a lot of redundancy in their spells known.

Without bringing in PrCs, how well can the same Sorcerer build cover the core areas of all three fixed list casters ? Can you have spell picks left over for the Sorcerers own great choices ?

[Karl Aegis]

They're a Sorcerer. Buy items that give them the spells they don't have. Use their spells known on effects they need often or require a competent caster to penetrate spell resistance or higher save DCs. Or use some staff charges.

[Gullintanni]

So after thinking about the tiering discussion in the other thread a bit, I am left with a notion:

A Sorcerer can be built to cover the core competency of the Warmage, blasting. As the Mailman shows us, it can be much better at it than the Warmage. But it seems to me, a Sorcerer can cover the general blasting job without investing all its resources. And a Sorcerer can cover the minionmancy of the Dread Necromancer without investing all its resources. The Beguiler probably takes more resources to cover, it combines enchanting with some battlefield control and illusions.

I don't think a Sorcerer can be built that completely covers the Necromancer or the Beguiler, like it can dominate the Warmage. The first to have more to them than their core areas. But all three fixed-list casters have a lot of redundancy in their spells known.

Without bringing in PrCs, how well can the same Sorcerer build cover the core areas of all three fixed list casters ? Can you have spell picks left over for the Sorcerers own great choices ?

One element to focus on here is going to be spells that grant versatility and power in a single cast.

Take Planar Binding for example. It allows you to call outsiders that can fight for you (minionmancy), cast spells for you, make skill checks for you, etc.

This single spell, along with the required Magic Circle, can cover a selection of problems.

Bloodlines also allow Sorcerer's to expand their spell lists (As does Arcane Disciple) without bringing in PrCs, though such options may not fit the spirit of the challenge you're discussing.

[eggynack]

I think you can get pretty close. You'd want image, charm, and dominate spells from the beguiler, stuff like animate dead, create undead, and command undead from the DN, and you could maybe get the essence of the warmage in an orb spell. Maybe a couple of orbs. Biggest problem might be getting overloaded at 4th level spells. It sounds doable though, especially if you're selective in what specific spells you go for. Like, you might not need more than silent image and maybe one other image, or you could go with mirror image, which technically has the word image but is really a different thing, and invisibility as second level spells, and get some variety in your illusion style stuff without leaving the really early levels. So, you can spend a second first level spell on charm person, and then all the other beguiler stuff is higher up domination effects. I kinda like getting fireball in there too, cause that strikes me as essentially warmage.

[Grim Reader]

Yes. I started going through the Beguiler spells. There are a lot of gems there, but also a lot of overlap. Its nice to be able to use lower level spell slots of course, but how many Fog spells or will-targeting save-or-lose is needed. I think a lot of spells can be pared out without losing core competency.

[Beheld]

So after thinking about the tiering discussion in the other thread a bit, I am left with a notion:

A Sorcerer can be built to cover the core competency of the Warmage, blasting. As the Mailman shows us, it can be much better at it than the Warmage. But it seems to me, a Sorcerer can cover the general blasting job without investing all its resources. And a Sorcerer can cover the minionmancy of the Dread Necromancer without investing all its resources. The Beguiler probably takes more resources to cover, it combines enchanting with some battlefield control and illusions.

I don't think a Sorcerer can be built that completely covers the Necromancer or the Beguiler, like it can dominate the Warmage. The first to have more to them than their core areas. But all three fixed-list casters have a lot of redundancy in their spells known.

Without bringing in PrCs, how well can the same Sorcerer build cover the core areas of all three fixed list casters ? Can you have spell picks left over for the Sorcerers own great choices ?

The first biggest problem you are going to run into is that if you aren't playing that whole "my level 20 character has 5 4th level spells, so he's as good as a Beguiler at level 8" thing that people always do by making level 20 builds for everything is that at any level X, where the Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage, and Sorcerer just got access to X/2 level spells, the Sorcerer knows a single spell and can spontaneously cast between it's one spell, while the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage all know multiple spells, in different areas.

So if you pick the BEST 4th level spell, and it's Wings of Flurry, then you have to claim that Wings of Flurry is so good that it's better than the warmage at blasting even though he's picking between:

EBT, All five Orbs, and Phantasmal Killer

and it's somehow better than the Dread Necro at Necromancy/Minions/Crowd Control, even though he's choosing spontaneously between

Giant Vermin, Animate Dead, Summon Undead IV,
EBT, Fear,
Phantasmal Killer, Contagion, Poison

And you are better than the Beguiler at Illusions/Mental Magic/Utility Crap even though he's choosing spontaneously between:

Charm Monster,
Confusion
Solid Fog, Phantom Battle, Rainbow Pattern,
Greater Invis, Greater Mirror Image, Freedom of Movement
Locate Creature

Now, not only is Wings of Flurry not better than all of those, I would say it's not better than any of those three! Now, that's probably at least partially because despite me picking it sort of at random, 4th level spells seems to be a particularly bad comparison for the Sorcerer, since even the usual dunce of the group Warmage gets EBT and Phantasmal Killer along with spontaneous use of the best blasting spells in the game.

Now, as you prepare to say "but Sorcerer can add to their spells known!" remember that literally every method that works for sorcerers, also works for all three other classes, and the other three classes have other ways that don't work for Sorcerers. So if your plan is to make a Sorcerer that has 15 knowstones to cover all the 4th level spells that he would ever want, a Beguiler with 10 Knowstones and all the same spells is probably just objectively a better character, even before he gets into things like Prestige Domains, Substitute Domain, Bloodline Feats, ect.

[Grim Reader]

The first biggest problem you are going to run into is that if you aren't playing that whole "my level 20 character has 5 4th level spells, so he's as good as a Beguiler at level 8" thing that people always do by making level 20 builds for everything is that at any level X, where the Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage, and Sorcerer just got access to X/2 level spells, the Sorcerer knows a single spell and can spontaneously cast between it's one spell, while the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage all know multiple spells, in different areas.

This is true. My initial impression is that this can't be done at level 1. However, the higher level you look at the more possible it seems.


So if you pick the BEST 4th level spell, and it's Wings of Flurry, then you have to claim that Wings of Flurry is so good that it's better than the warmage at blasting even though he's picking between:.

At level 8, I don't think it is possible to be better at being a Beguiler than a Beguiler and better at being a Dread Necromancer than the Necromancer. At best, you can be a competent second in their areas. (I would also consider spells like Celerity at level 4.)


Now, as you prepare to say "but Sorcerer can add to their spells known!" remember that literally every method that works for sorcerers, also works for all three other classes, and the other three classes have other ways that don't work for Sorcerers. So if your plan is to make a Sorcerer that has 15 knowstones to cover all the 4th level spells that he would ever want, a Beguiler with 10 Knowstones and all the same spells is probably just objectively a better character, even before he gets into things like Prestige Domains, Substitute Domain, Bloodline Feats, ect.

A Beguiler with 10 knowstones is pretty much the same character as a Beguiler without any, since they only give you spells on your list.

Anyway, I was not planning to consider much in that vein, except scrolls. Spells that are not everyday needs but more corner case can be replaced with scrolls.

[Cosi]

A Beguiler with 10 knowstones is pretty much the same character as a Beguiler without any, since they only give you spells on your list.

A Beguiler also gets UMD, so it can emulate the class feature of "has teleport on its spell list" that you need to active a Knowstone. In fact, either Knowstones or Runestaves are written such that casting the spell from the item is written as a use of the item, meaning you can emulate the spell slot expenditure with a big enough UMD check.

[Grim Reader]

A Beguiler also gets UMD, so it can emulate the class feature of "has teleport on its spell list" that you need to active a Knowstone. In fact, either Knowstones or Runestaves are written such that casting the spell from the item is written as a use of the item, meaning you can emulate the spell slot expenditure with a big enough UMD check.

I don't really see that flying at any table. It seems firmly TO.

[Cosi]

I don't really see that flying at any table. It seems firmly TO.

Which part?

I agree that UMD in place of a spell slot is probably going to get slapped down, but I don't see it as at all unreasonable to expect to be allowed to use "emulate a class feature" to emulate a class feature when activating a Knowstone.

[noce]

I don't really see that flying at any table. It seems firmly TO.

I don't know knowstones, but my beguiler used a Transmutation Runestaff. It's pretty much RAW.


Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. It lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

[Grim Reader]

Which part?

I agree that UMD in place of a spell slot is probably going to get slapped down, but I don't see it as at all unreasonable to expect to be allowed to use "emulate a class feature" to emulate a class feature when activating a Knowstone.

Not expending spell slots. Emulating having the spell on your list would probably work like doing the same thing when casting from a scroll (although I've had a few DMs who would reason that a scroll is designed to have spells cast from it, and slap an extra penalty on) so DC 20 + the caster level you're emulating.

Anyway, it is a digression. Dread Necromancer list seems to have fewer gems than Beguiler so far. There is also further overlap.

[Karl Aegis]

You know, if I can cast Holy Sword by emulating having the Paladin spell list by rolling a -6 I don't really need to cast other spells. Screw it, emulating having Divine Power on a spell list and cast Persist Divine Power from a scroll and run around with your commoner beating up people. It basically negates the entire point of the Use Magic Device skill. Who cares if I can't successfully activate this wand when I can roll a -2 and activate it anyways by emulating this class feature!?

[Cosi]

You know, if I can cast Holy Sword by emulating having the Paladin spell list by rolling a -6 I don't really need to cast other spells. Screw it, emulating having Divine Power on a spell list and cast Persist Divine Power from a scroll and run around with your commoner beating up people. It basically negates the entire point of the Use Magic Device skill. Who cares if I can't successfully activate this wand when I can roll a -2 and activate it anyways by emulating this class feature!?

Are you literate? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm)

[Beheld]

This is true. My initial impression is that this can't be done at level 1. However, the higher level you look at the more possible it seems.

My impression is it can't be done at any level at all short of calling magic, because whatever your highest level of spells is, you have one, and the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage each have 5. You have to be pretty deep into the realm of optimization before you can start claiming that your 4th level spells are better than Beguiler/DN/Warmage 7th level spells, and if you are that deep in, the Beguiler/DN/Warmage can just have your 4th level spells too.

With calling magic you can say "and then I gate in a Beguiler 16" and the Beguiler can say "and then I charmed a Slyph and he leveled with me for 10 levels and then he gated in a Dread Necro 16" ect. and everyone has exact copies of everyone else, possibly by Ice Assassin, and no one cares.


At level 8, I don't think it is possible to be better at being a Beguiler than a Beguiler and better at being a Dread Necromancer than the Necromancer. At best, you can be a competent second in their areas. (I would also consider spells like Celerity at level 4.)

See, this is what I'm talking about. No one in the history of D&D has ever leveled up their 7th level Sorcerer to 8th level and said "and then i'll take Celerity!" Celerity is a great 4th level spell for a level 20 Sorcerer and an decent to okay one for a 7th level Wizard, but it's not a thing that 8th level Sorcerers want to spontaneously cast from 3 times a day as their only choice, because that means they don't have a single 4th level attack spell, even though 4th level attack spells are some of the best attack spells in the game for their level.

[Gullintanni]

My impression is it can't be done at any level at all short of calling magic, because whatever your highest level of spells is, you have one, and the Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage each have 5. You have to be pretty deep into the realm of optimization before you can start claiming that your 4th level spells are better than Beguiler/DN/Warmage 7th level spells, and if you are that deep in, the Beguiler/DN/Warmage can just have your 4th level spells too.

With calling magic you can say "and then I gate in a Beguiler 16" and the Beguiler can say "and then I charmed a Slyph and he leveled with me for 10 levels and then he gated in a Dread Necro 16" ect. and everyone has exact copies of everyone else, possibly by Ice Assassin, and no one cares.



See, this is what I'm talking about. No one in the history of D&D has ever leveled up their 7th level Sorcerer to 8th level and said "and then i'll take Celerity!" Celerity is a great 4th level spell for a level 20 Sorcerer and an decent to okay one for a 7th level Wizard, but it's not a thing that 8th level Sorcerers want to spontaneously cast from 3 times a day as their only choice, because that means they don't have a single 4th level attack spell, even though 4th level attack spells are some of the best attack spells in the game for their level.

A better choice would be Black Tentacles. A spell that resolves an awful lot of combat situations in a single spell, and gets a lot better with metamagic.

...That said, your point still stands. At a lot of points in the game, the Beguiler's variety of available spells makes it a friendlier class to play.

[Grim Reader]

So it seems Dread Necromacers have fewer gems, but their list is stronger at the mid-levels where the Beguiler starts to flag. Warmage is mostly damage, sometimes with riders. Its got some battlefield control which overlaps with the two other classes, and the prismatics are nice.

Generally, it seems you can do a lot of the Warmages job with a Lesser Orb, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion and Disintegrate. Maybe a Fireball or Energy substitution feat as gravy.

Heighten is also going to be necessary.

I'm going to use the Beguiler list as the base, because it is the strongest of the 3.

Level 1, I'm thinking:

Charm Person
Colour Spray -the Will SoL spell
Mage Armour
Obscuring Mist -Battlefield Control, BC, at this level
Silent Image -illusion spell of the level.

This is the Beguiler core, as I see it. The rest are either more corner-case, like Rouse or Undetectable Alignment, which can be on scrolls. Or they are more Will negates SoL.

I'm a bit uncertain about Expeditious Retreat. Get out of dodge spell for level 1.

The Dread Necromancer core at this point seems to be

Ray of Enfeeblement.

At this point, the duration of Summon Undead is too short to be a priority and better alternatives will come online. The damage spells overlap with Warmage competency (although the harms would have been nice) and the will-targeting SoLs overlap with the Beguiler selection. The rest is corner-case, or in the case of Detect Magic, a cantrip.

For Warmage, a Lesser Orb will be needed.

So that is seven core competency spells. Maybe eight, if we count Expeditious Retreat. On the face of it, this does not seem doable. That is because at this level it isn't. But it looks like it will get easier from here.

[Cosi]

A better choice would be Black Tentacles. A spell that resolves an awful lot of combat situations in a single spell, and gets a lot better with metamagic.

...That said, your point still stands. At a lot of points in the game, the Beguiler's variety of available spells makes it a friendlier class to play.

You mean the same black tentacles that both the Dread Necromancer and the Warmage get in addition to other spells?

[noce]

How are you going to have 6 + int skills, high int, trapfinding and a big skill list?
How are you going to get rebuke undead and undead mastery?

[Beheld]

But it looks like it will get easier from here.

You keep saying this, but you have provided no evidence or argument for it, and no one else seems to agree with you. It doesn't look like it does get any easier. It looks like it stays just as impossible, or possibly gets more so.


but their list is stronger at the mid-levels where the Beguiler starts to flag.

Not sure what your definition of "mid levels" is, since Beguilers seem particularly strong in the 8-10 range, and by level 12 you are surely well into the crazy town of having access to 5-7 domains worth of spells, or already having completed your Rainbow Servant Capstone, or just having an army of monsters 100s strong following you around.

[Grim Reader]

So looking at level 2 spells...I am basically making this up as I go along, understand.

Beguiler core:

Blur
Fog Cloud -BC at level 2. Overlaps with Obscuring Mist though. Casting from lower spells slots is nice, but there is definitely diminishing returns in having both
Glitterdust -Will negates at this level, and detect invisible.
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Touch of Idiocy

Dread Necromancer core:

Blindness/Deafness -Fort targeting SoL. Duration permanenet. Yes indeed.

At this level, Summon Undead II is a viable option. It will get obsoleted by Summon Undead III soon, though. There is also Control Undead, which is thematic, but also obsoleted pretty damn quick. However, we may well be wanting Spectral Hand at some time after this, because we've picked up two touch spells.

Warmage core:

None

So that's seven core spells again, maybe eight. However, the level 1 core has dropped to six.

[Cosi]

So thus far out of two levels, the "core" has exceeded the spells known of a 20th level Sorcerer at both levels. Of course, we aren't counting class features, skills, or any of the utility spells the classes get.

Shouldn't we just call it at this point? We're skewing things as far in the Sorcerer's favor as possible, and still getting "this literally cannot be done".

[Beheld]

Control Undead is never obsoleted ever. It's a no save Dominate spell that allows you to control an increasingly absurd sized pool of undead by casting it on your off days, for which reason it is a great Dread necro spell, a really good Wizard spell, and a terrible Sorcerer spell. It's nice in that it's one of the few low level combat spells that can actually be used effectively from a scroll, even if the usage is very different than the utility one it provides for a Wizard or Dread Necro.

[Grim Reader]

Level 3

Beguiler core:

Dispel Magic
Haste
Major Image -Illusion spell at this level. Better than Silent Image.
Slow
Suggestion

Dread Necromancer core:

Summon Undead III -If we are going to do the Necromancer thing, we need to be in the SU line.

Maybe Vampiric Touch. It is thematic, and does recover hp. However, incombat healing isn't generally that good, and we have other plans for damage-dealing.

Warmage Core:

None

So that is six spells, and we have obsoleted another level 1 spell, dropping the level 1 core to 5. It looks like things are improving. However, next level is going to be bad, its the Beguilers last good one, and the Dread Necromancer is coming online more and more.

[OldTrees1]

So looking at level 2 spells...I am basically making this up as I go along, understand.

Dread Necromancer core:

Blindness/Deafness -Fort targeting SoL. Duration permanenet. Yes indeed.

At this level, Summon Undead II is a viable option. It will get obsoleted by Summon Undead III soon, though. There is also Control Undead, which is thematic, but also obsoleted pretty damn quick. However, we may well be wanting Spectral Hand at some time after this, because we've picked up two touch spells.


I think you meant Command Undead(2nd level spell, control target for days per caster level), which is an important spell to the Dread Necromancer that only becomes obsolete when armies of 100,000 strong become obsolete. Even at that stage if you add Undead Eyes via Advanced Learning you can see a 1,000 selected locations at your whim.

[Grim Reader]

Level 4. So this is probably the tightest one.

Beguiler Core:

Charm monster - One of the stronger Will SoL. Obsoletes Charm Person.
Invisibility, greater - Utility and defense, obsoletes Invisibility
Mirror Image, greater - Nor going to be casting Mirror Image much from here on
Solid Fog - BC control, and a better Fog Cloud

Possibly Freedom of Movement. I can see arguments for having it known rather than in a device or similar.

Dread Necromancer Core:

Animate Dead
Enervation
Black Tentacles

We might also want to consider Poison, Con damage is good, and Summon Undead IV. We just don't have space for every Summon Undead in the list though.

Warmage:

Wings of Flurry.

So that's eight spells. Plus three we'd quite like.

However, we've obsoleted one level one spell, taking the core down to four. In addition, Colour Spray probably isn't seeing that much use at this level. So maybe three. And we've also passed by three second level spells, taking them down to four, maybe five.

At this stage we should probably start looking at Versatile Spellcaster for a feat.

[Grim Reader]

Control Undead is never obsoleted ever. It's a no save Dominate spell that allows you to control an increasingly absurd sized pool of undead by casting it on your off days, for which reason it is a great Dread necro spell, a really good Wizard spell, and a terrible Sorcerer spell. It's nice in that it's one of the few low level combat spells that can actually be used effectively from a scroll, even if the usage is very different than the utility one it provides for a Wizard or Dread Necro.

That's actually a valid point. Its a Charm Person for Undead, with greater duration actually. Pretty good.

[OldTrees1]

That's actually a valid point. Its a Charm Person for Undead, with greater duration actually. Pretty good.

I think you are only reading half the spell.

CommandUndead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)

Command Undead is charm for intelligent undead, but equally if not more important it is the no save complete control of mindless undead. Furthermore that control is in ridiculous numbers. When I said 100,000 I was not exaggerating.

[Cosi]

However, we've obsoleted one level one spell, taking the core down to four. In addition, Colour Spray probably isn't seeing that much use at this level. So maybe three. And we've also passed by three second level spells, taking them down to four, maybe five.

This isn't really fair. Part of the Sorcerer is locking in spells. If you want to say you can beat 1st level spells, you need to keep all the 1st level spells on your list. At best, you can swap one spell of each level.


At this stage we should probably start looking at Versatile Spellcaster for a feat.

If you do that, you have to also count the best Arcane Disciple domain or Bloodline feat for the fixed list casters. Maybe the best three if you want to really preserve the 3 v 1 nature of the exercise.

[Grim Reader]

So we got 3/4/6/8 at the moment.

Now for level 5:

Beguiler Core:

Dominate person

Dread Necromancer Core:

Cloudkill
Planar Binding, lesser
Magic jar

We'd rather like Slay Living here, but unfortunately not. It may be time for Summon Undead V.

Warmage Core:

Arcane Fusion

We've reached the middle spell levels. The Beguiler is flagging now, but the Dread Necromancer is picking up speed. At this point it has several advantages hard to emulate.

So that is five spells. Maybe six. Nothing gets obsoleted, and we'd quite like Magic circle to go with the Planar Binding.

[Grim Reader]

I think you are only reading half the spell.

CommandUndead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm)

Command Undead is charm for intelligent undead, but equally if not more important it is the no save complete control of mindless undead. Furthermore that control is in ridiculous numbers. When I said 100,000 I was not exaggerating.

I am curious as to how you get to 100 000 ? I can see that at high level, every casting gets you 2-3 weeks, and you can cast maybe 30 castings per day. Without cheese, it seems you'll top out just after 500 or thereabouts.


This isn't really fair. Part of the Sorcerer is locking in spells. If you want to say you can beat 1st level spells, you need to keep all the 1st level spells on your list. At best, you can swap one spell of each level.

Depends. Like I said, I am just trying to see if such a build can be done. You can make the build with an entry point at a variety of levels. There are also retraining's etc. for the people who like that.


If you do that, you have to also count the best Arcane Disciple domain or Bloodline feat for the fixed list casters. Maybe the best three if you want to really preserve the 3 v 1 nature of the exercise.

:) That would defeat the purpose of the exercise: To see if we can cover the core competencies of the three fixed list casters with a Sorcerer. Once they get optimized out of their central competencies, they are no longer relevant to what we need to cover.

However, it is almost 8 o'clock here, and my girlfriend is waiting for me so I'll need to come back to the next levels later.

[Grim Reader]

If you do that, you have to also count the best Arcane Disciple domain or Bloodline feat for the fixed list casters. Maybe the best three if you want to really preserve the 3 v 1 nature of the exercise.

Sorry, I realized I forgot to explain my thinking here, as regards Versatile Spellcaster: Obviously, we are exceptionally tight for spells known here. So in many cases we'll need to have lower level spells do the work of higher level ones. Hence, we need to heighten spells for a relevant DC. And we'll also need Versatile Spellcaster to use lower level slots to cast higher-level spells.

[OldTrees1]

I am curious as to how you get to 100 000 ? I can see that at high level, every casting gets you 2-3 weeks, and you can cast maybe 30 castings per day. Without cheese, it seems you'll top out just after 500 or thereabouts.

However, it is almost 8 o'clock here, and my girlfriend is waiting for me so I'll need to come back to the next levels later.

I will do a quick writeup for when you return.
For undead army necromancer I tend to like finite & bounded numbers so I use the 40 caster level from Circle Magic rather than any uncapped caster level cheese.
Additionally an undead army necromancer is one of the rare times I suggest starting with an 18 casting stat. 18+2 racial+5 tome+5 HD+6 cloak=36 (relevant for bonus slots)

For each Extended Chain Spell Command Undead (5th level spell via Slaymate) you get 21 per cast and they last for 80 days. You can cast it 36 times in a day (although slightly fewer on active days). You can cast the non extended version 8 more times (but those are half strength). You can cast it more often if you decide Chain Spell is worth of a metamagic reduction feat.

So you get 21 undead per cast, 40 casts per day, and 80 days per cast = 67 200 undead.

Even a weaker necromancer(caster level 20, no extend spell, no Slaymate??, and reserve your top level of spells everyday)
21 undead per cast, 29 casts per day, and 20 days per cast = 12 180 undead.

The really minimalist necromancer(caster level 20, no feats, lesser metamagic rods of chain and extend)
21 undead per cast, 3 casts per day, 40 days = 2 520 undead.

[Karl Aegis]

Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer is the build you're looking for. It's pretty famous and can do everything those three classes can do at the same time.

[Lans]

Have you considered being a kobold or grabbing bloodline feats?

[Grim Reader]

The really minimalist necromancer(caster level 20, no feats, lesser metamagic rods of chain and extend)
21 undead per cast, 3 casts per day, 40 days = 2 520 undead.

Chain Spell:) Quite nice, although you have to procure the undead as well:)


Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer is the build you're looking for. It's pretty famous and can do everything those three classes can do at the same time.

I've looed it up, and it seems a really good build as a Warmage/Dread Necromacer build, but surely it is a bit lacking on the Beguiler side.


Have you considered being a kobold or grabbing bloodline feats?

Bloodline feats yes. Necromantic Bloodline in particular. It grants a number of the Dread necromancer core spells, blcoks Healing type spells which is not a consideration, and is the gateway feat for Kin Mastery which is how we get Rebuke Undead.

In generally, I've been musing that the terminology I've used have been poor. I've been referring to lower-level spells as "obsoleted" when a higher-level spell has come online. What I've really wanted to note is that these are spells that overlap, and there are diminishing returns in having both or all of them. In some cases, you really do want the higher level spall because it is that much better. Charm Monster vs. Charm Person for example. However, in other cases, like Cloudkill versus Acid Fog, upgrading the moment the new option is available may not be a priority.

[Grim Reader]

Then we have level 6:

Beguiler Core:

Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing

Dread Necromancer Core:

Acid Fog
Create Undead
Geas
Planar Binding

Warmage Core:

Disintegrate

Acid Fog does much the same job as Cloudkill, and Planar Binding overlaps with Lesser Planar Binding. So we have seven spells, two of which overlaps with lower versions. We'd also like SU VI.

[Grim Reader]

Level 7:

Beguiler Core:

Nothing.

Dread Necromancer Core:

Control Undead

Warmage Core:

Nothing. Maybe Arcane Spellsurge.

The Beguiler is well past his level of competence by now. We'd quite like Arcane Spellsurge and Summon Undead VII. Harm would be nice, but its not even an option. So that is two spells, maybe three. No overlaps though.

[Grim Reader]

Level 8:

Beguiler Core:

Mind Blank

Dread Necromacer Core

Create Greater Undead

Warmage Core:

Arcane Fusion, Greater

As usual, Summon Undead VIII. So 3 spells, maybe 4.

[Karl Aegis]

Um, Dread Necromancer doesn't get Summon Undead VI-IX.

What do you want from Beguiler that can't be accessed through wands? Freezing Fog isn't bad on the Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer. We can probably pick up whatever through the Domain Access ACF from Complete Champion.

[Grim Reader]

And level 9:

Beguiler Core:

Time Stop

Dread Necromancer Core:

Plague of Undead is thematic, but I can't help but think that we are past the point where skeletons and Zombies are a high priority.

Warmage Core:

Maybe Maw of Chaos.

And also Summon Undead IX. So that is one spell, up to 3 at most. I've been thinking about how to note down overlapping spells or spells that are overshadowed by later-level versions. So maybe noting them in red is the thing. By the numbers, the non-overlapping spells needed are

3/5/5/7/4/7/2/3/1 That's not a very good way of writing it up, I know, but I think it shows that there is a point where its doable. What I have learned from the feedback so far, is that Command Undead absolutely needs to be in there. There are also so many touch spells there that we will in practice need Spectral Hand, maybe through a Wand.

I got to do a little bit of actual work now, then I'll come back to look a bit closer at what I've nominated as "Core" spells of each class, and see if I can get feedback on that. I kind of feel I've done the Warmage an injustice, so that may need another looking at.

Edit: We'll be getting Necromantic Bloodline and Kin Mastery for Rebuke Undead. Necromantic bloodline gives us Dominate Person and Control Undead of the Core spells plus a few other nice ones, such as Vampiric Touch, Wail of the Banshee and Trap the Soul.

That changes the list to 3/5/5/7/3/7/1/3/1

[Grim Reader]

Um, Dread Necromancer doesn't get Summon Undead VI-IX.

Yes, that is true. It is one reason why I've prioritized it so low. However, Warmage only gets two of the actual spells I've put on the list. The reason we can (attempt to) cover Warmage with so few spells is that the spells we have available is better at the Warmages job. (And the Warmages BC spells overlap with the other two classes.)

Still, just the Summon list would probably give more versatility, and still be within the minion master role.


What do you want from Beguiler that can't be accessed through wands? Freezing Fog isn't bad on the Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer. We can probably pick up whatever through the Domain Access ACF from Complete Champion.

Well, the thing I am trying to do here is see if a Sorcerer can be built that can cover the jobs of the out-of-the-box Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage. So far, I've set a fairly high bar in listing a lot of the spells they have as needed for the job. Later I might try to list out a lesser version of the competence area of each, so a "secondary" Beguiler has the charm and dominate line, a few illusions and battlefield control, etc.

[Grim Reader]

Um, Dread Necromancer doesn't get Summon Undead VI-IX.

Aaaand I just realized that I had them mixed up in my head with the Sand Shapers desert summoning list witch goes to level 9. Which summon undead doesn't. So really, we can max that out fairly early.

[Lans]

Do you even need summon undead?

[Cosi]

:) That would defeat the purpose of the exercise: To see if we can cover the core competencies of the three fixed list casters with a Sorcerer. Once they get optimized out of their central competencies, they are no longer relevant to what we need to cover.

That seems kind of silly then. Comparing a Sorcerer build to the Beguiler class doesn't prove anything useful. Talking about "core competencies" also misses the point that part of the power of the Beguiler is that you get, for example, shadow walk for free and can just cast it if it happens to be good right now.

[OldTrees1]

Do you even need summon undead?

For the most part I don't think so. If you still do not have Rebuke Undead then maybe Summon Undead V would be wise.
Summon I & II are mere skeletons and zombies. You can command those.
Summon III is a Ghoul
Summon IV is a Ghast, an Allip, or a Flying Zombie(you might have one already)
Summon V is Shadow, or wight

Also the Control Undead(7th level spell), Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells might not deserve a spell known. The creation spells do not grant control and thus are rarely used (UMD a scroll). The Control Undead(7th level spell) spell is only worthwhile if you cannot Rebuke (and anyone mimicking a Dread Necromancer will learn how to rebuke).

Additionally I noticed basically none of the non undead 7-9th necromancy spells.

[Grim Reader]

Do you even need summon undead?
For the most part I don't think so. If you still do not have Rebuke Undead then maybe Summon Undead V would be wise.

Also the Control Undead(7th level spell), Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells might not deserve a spell known. The creation spells do not grant control and thus are rarely used (UMD a scroll). The Control Undead(7th level spell) spell is only worthwhile if you cannot Rebuke (and anyone mimicking a Dread Necromancer will learn how to rebuke).

Additionally I noticed basically none of the non undead 7-9th necromancy spells.

Dread Necromancer is the class I am least familiar with of the fixed lister casters. Thank you for helping out here:)

As far as I know the class, Dread Necromancers primary thing is being an Undead minion master. Kill it and add it to your army. In addition, the list brings a number of Fort-targeting save-or-lose spells, a few will-targeting ones and some damage spells. The latter two items should be overshadowed by Beguiler and Warmage abilities. There is also some battlefield control and utility spells which overlap between the lists. And the Summons. And unlike the Warmage, the DN seems to have built-in advantages that mean you can't be quite as good at his thing as he is.

I am considering splitting up the classes in "minimum" and "good" coverage lists. Minimum coverage for a Dread Necromancer would probably be spells needed to do Undead minion mastering and something targeting fort.

The reason there are few non-undead Necromancy spells of level 7-9 is that these spells don't really seem to be essential to the DNs schtick. It is a number of redundant fort-targeting SoL spells and some direct damage. Energy Drain, maybe.


That seems kind of silly then. Comparing a Sorcerer build to the Beguiler class doesn't prove anything useful. Talking about "core competencies" also misses the point that part of the power of the Beguiler is that you get, for example, shadow walk for free and can just cast it if it happens to be good right now.

Well, I believe the Beguilers power is mainly the fact that it has a spell list with a number of very powerful spells, gems, at the lower levels, and some good ones at the mid levels. Supported by a number of strong spells. The fact that it also has a number of occasional use, nice-to-have spells is a very small part of its power.

And there is a point coming eventually.

[Beheld]

And there is a point coming eventually.

Oh goody, after multiple failed attempts to replicate the Beguiler with a Sorcerer, at some point, those multiple failures will be added together to teach us the lesson that Beguiler is Tier 3 because Sorcerer is so much better as long as you ignore half the Beguiler class. I can't wait.

[noce]

The fact that it also has a number of occasional use, nice-to-have spells is a very small part of its power.

I played a Beguiler once, starting from level 1.
We encountered a group of jackalweres from Fiend Folio, with a gaze attack that puts you to sleep.

Obviously I contributed to the encounter in a number of ways, but my power in that case was to have Rouse as a known spell, a thing no sorcerer would have.

[Grim Reader]

Ok, I'm going to have to do a bit of real work after this, but I wanted to get this one off first, its a bit of a reorganization. These are the Beguiler good coverage spell core. I've marked spells that overlap with other classes spells in blue, and spells that overlap with spells on later levels or are obsoleted by them in red:

I've generally left out spells if they just do the same job as other spells with slight differences (How many "will negates" SoL do you need?) Or if they are corner case, quite infrequently useful spells, or spells that just get done better by the other classes, like Welm line.

Beguiler core, level 1:

Charm Person
Colour Spray
Mage Armour
Obscuring Mist
Silent Image

Level 2:

Blur
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Touch of Idiocy

Level 3:

Dispel Magic
Haste
Major Image
Slow
Suggestion

Level 4:
Charm Monster
Freedom of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Greater Mirror Image
Solid Fog

Level 5:

Dominate Person

Level six:

Greater Dispel Magic
True Seeing

Level Seven:

Nothing.

Level Eight:

Mind Blank

Level 9:

Dominate Monster
Time Stop

This should give an idea of how many spells in the Beguiler "module" is actually core.

[Grim Reader]

Ok, its always been known that a Beguiler at low levels is better than a Sorcerer. But this does put some scale to just how much the Beguiler outclasses the Sorcerer at this stage.

At level 1, leaving out the Beguilers better chassis and actual class features, as well as the redundant and rarely needed spells, the Beguilers core magical arsenal is more than 250 % better than what the Sorcerer gets at this level.

At level 4, when second level spells come online, the Sorcerer has gotten 1 more 1st level spell known, so the Beguiler still has more than 166 % more great spells than him at first level, and also has six times as many great second-level spells known. In total, the Sorcerer has 3 of 11 top pick spells known. Or 5 spell levels compared to the Beguilers 18. 5/18

At level 6, the Sorcerer has 4 1st level spells, two 2nd and one 3rd. He is one spell behind on the level 1s, 4 behind on level 2s, and 4 behind on level 3s. Converted to spell levels, he is behind by 11 to 33

It is important to remember here that we are only comparing top pick spells, which is supposed to be the Sorcerers strongest point.

At level 8, the Sorc has 5 level 1s known. That lets him cover the Beguiler 1st level spells. He has 3 level 2 spells, leaving him lacking 3, and 2 level 3s. Where he is 3 behind. He also has 1 level 4 spell known, where the Beguiler has 5 strong picks. At this point the Sorc may have picked up Solid Fog or Charm Monster though, so he may have a level 1 pick free. 21 spell levels to 55.

At level 10, a Sorcerer has 5/4/3/2/1. Dominate Person is absolutely better than Charm Person. Greater Invisibility or Greater Mirror Image may be picked, I'm assuming one of the two. So the Sorc has 41 spell levels known, the Beguiler has 58.

At level 12, its 5/5/4/3/2/1. By now, Dispel Magic, Fog Cloud or the other one of Mirror Image/Invisibility could be obsolete. By now, It is 55 to 68.

At level 14, the Sorcerer has 5/5/4/4/3/2/1. It is 77 to 68.

At level 16, it is 103 to 80.

At level 18, it is 127 to 86

At level 20, it is 153 to 95.

This is not intended to be a comparison of how powerful the classes are, relative to each other. Although at lower levels, the curves of power will be similar. You'd need to adjust for the fact that the Beguiler has a better chassis with more skill points, actual class features and a few more spells which we haven't really included. However, somewhere around spell level 3-4, the beguiler list starts to go from first pick gems to very good spells, and the Sorcerers capacity to cherrypick better spells will start to pull him up. At some point, after that, having the entire Whelm line just isn't going to cut it compared to Lesser Wish, Arcane Spellsurge and Summon Monster.

I don't really think counting spell levels fully simulates how much better high level spells are than low level ones, but it does at least acknowledge that level 6 spells are far better than level 1s, for example.

What this is intended to do is roughly estimate how much of the Sorcerers intrinsic class resources it takes to do the Beguilers job competently.

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necromancer is the class I am least familiar with of the fixed lister casters. Thank you for helping out here:)

As far as I know the class, Dread Necromancers primary thing is being an Undead minion master. Kill it and add it to your army. In addition, the list brings a number of Fort-targeting save-or-lose spells, a few will-targeting ones and some damage spells. The latter two items should be overshadowed by Beguiler and Warmage abilities. There is also some battlefield control and utility spells which overlap between the lists. And the Summons. And unlike the Warmage, the DN seems to have built-in advantages that mean you can't be quite as good at his thing as he is.

I am considering splitting up the classes in "minimum" and "good" coverage lists. Minimum coverage for a Dread Necromancer would probably be spells needed to do Undead minion mastering and something targeting fort.

The reason there are few non-undead Necromancy spells of level 7-9 is that these spells don't really seem to be essential to the DNs schtick. It is a number of redundant fort-targeting SoL spells and some direct damage. Energy Drain, maybe.

The undead are just the flashiest and most overt part of necromancy, DNs also have debuffing and immorality as their schtick. The only part of necromancy that is not the DN's core schtick is the reversal
(restoration & revive).

For example: Greater Bestow Curse(8th) & Astral Projection(9th) would be a good choices

[Grim Reader]

I realized I should have added a "Feats" section there. We'll need Heighten spell, since we don't have loads of will-targeting SoLs at every level, we'll need the ones we do have to carry the load for longer. And so we'll also need Versatile Spellcaster to lighten the load on higher level spell slots a bit. Happily, both are good feats anyway.


The undead are just the flashiest and most overt part of necromancy, DNs also have debuffing and immorality as their schtick. The only part of necromancy that is not the DN's core schtick is the reversal
(restoration & revive).

For example: Greater Bestow Curse(8th) & Astral Projection(9th) would be a good choices

Ok. I am not sure if immorality is well emulated by spells. I think it is more an alignment thing. If you meant immortality, that seems more like class feature :)

I'm going to look more heavily into the debuffing here. I am less certain about the two spells. Bestow Greater Curse is a will-targeting SoL, and Astral Projection, while strong, does not seem part of the Dread Necromancers thing.

[Beheld]

Astral Projection, while strong, does not seem part of the Dread Necromancers thing.

This is ultimately the thesis argument of your entire project:

The thing that 100% of Dread Necromancers do that is powerful and Necromanctic is not part of the Necromancers thing, because I need to define away 3/4ths of each class to get even close to pretending this ****ty Sorcerer can attempt to approximate these classes.

[Grim Reader]

So next up is the Dread Necromancer. The DN is harder to emulate than the Beguiler, because he has class features that amplify the effect of his spells, such as Undead Mastery, and he has built-in ways of healing undead minions. He also has spells that are not on the Sorc/Wiz list, and spells that are on a lower level on his list. Still, we do what we can.

Feats: We need Necromantic Bloodline as the gateway feat to Kin Mastery, which gives Rebuke Undead. Necromantic Bloodline also grants us 9 spells, Cause Fear, Ghoul Touch, Vampiric Touch, Contagion, Dominate person, Eyebite, Control Undead, Trap the Soul and Wail of the Banshee. It is a good line of fort SoL, Will SoL, a debuff and Vampiric Touch. Ill add them in in green, to indicate that they are free spells.

Necromatic Bloodline also blocks us from learning healing spells, meh.

I've tried to take aboard the constructive feedback, so with less construct undead and more debuff,

Core Spells level 1:

Ray of Enfeeblement
Direct damage spell
Cause Fear

Core Spells level 2:

Blindness/Deafness
Command Undead
Spectral Hand
Ghoul Touch

Core Spells level 3

Ray of Exhaustion
Summon Undead III
Direct damage spell
Vampiric Touch


Core Spells Level 4

Animate dead
Enervation
Black Tentacles
Poison
Dispel Magic
Direct damage spell
Contagion

Core Spells level 5

Cloudkill
Dispel Magic Greater
Magic Jar
Summon Undead V
Planar Binding, Lesser
Dominate Person

Core Spells level 6

Acid Fog
Planar Binding
Waves Of Exhaustion
Direct damage spell
Eyebite

Core Spells level 7:

Control Undead
Area damage spell

Core Spells level 8:

Create Greater Undead
Range damage spell
Trap the Soul

Core Spells level 9:

Energy Drain
Wail of the Banshee


General notes on spells here: In the area of damage spells, the Sorc/Wiz list mostly offers better options at equivalent levels than the DN gets. Although we would quite like the Harm line, yes we would. However, the DN spells also heals undead minions, giving a bit more versatility. In general, we'd also like more ways of healing our undead.
I've not updated the Damage spells every level, seemed a bit of overkill.

Compared to the Beguiler, the DNs spell list is weaker at the low levels, where the Beguilers list contains most of the top picks you'd like anyway, but comes in stronger at the mid-levels. It never really gets the top picks at any level though, unlike the Beguiler.

So by the numbers again, Sorcerer resources needed to emulate the Dread Necromancers job (with the caveat that some class features make this difficult)

In spell levels known, Level 1: 2 of 2. Note that at level 3 the Sorcerer is actually ahead a bit. However in this level range getting resources such as scrolls to handle the more corner-case problems is not as easy as later.

Level 4: 5 / 10

Level 6: 11 / 18

Level 8: 21 / 42

Level 10: 35/ 60

Level 12: 55 / 74

Level 14: 77 / 77

Level 16: 103 / 94

Level 18: 127 / 103

Level 20: 153 / 112

What we are seeing here, I think is an illustration of how the DNs spell choice comes online later than the Beguiler, but maintains more potency after level 4, where the Beguiler suddenly loses steam. Its worth noting that the Beguiler gets almost 50 % more spells of level 5. In general, it is a less resource-intensive endeavour at low levels, but the higher level numbers are quite similar.

This is, however, with less ability to fully emulate the job of the DN.

Once again, it does not measure power, the DN would likely take a hit from the low number of truly first pick spells.

[Grim Reader]

Aand the direct damage line were supposed to be both red and blue to indicate they overlap with the Warmage spells and the higher-level damage spells.

[OldTrees1]

I realized I should have added a "Feats" section there. We'll need Heighten spell, since we don't have loads of will-targeting SoLs at every level, we'll need the ones we do have to carry the load for longer. And so we'll also need Versatile Spellcaster to lighten the load on higher level spell slots a bit. Happily, both are good feats anyway.



Ok. I am not sure if immorality is well emulated by spells. I think it is more an alignment thing. If you meant immortality, that seems more like class feature :)

I'm going to look more heavily into the debuffing here. I am less certain about the two spells. Bestow Greater Curse is a will-targeting SoL, and Astral Projection, while strong, does not seem part of the Dread Necromancers thing.
Immortality(pretty big part of the DN's shtick) is best emulated via a template(you don't have), then as a class feature(you don't have and are trying to emulate), and finally you can get a poor man's version of immortality via the Astral Projection spell(which is a poor man's way of emulating the soul projection a Dread Necromancer does as a Lich).

Bestow Curse Greater is a will-targeting SoL(which is fine since Necromancy would target both), however it is very versatile and is qualitatively different than what the Beguiler has at that time (and makes Heighten spell less or not needed). If you don't like it you could always choose Animate Dread Warrior instead.