How big is the gap between cantrips and weapon attacks?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Excluding agonizing blast warlocks and quickened meta sorcerers, how big is the average DPR gap between a caster that spent their time using cantrips and (say) an archer ranger who mainly just took the attack action?

I'm trying to design a half-caster class that gets most of its oomph from cantrips and am trying to figure out how best to make up the gap.

I know one subclass will be a pet type, using the UA ranger model. The other should mix weapon attacks with cantrips. Neither should have extra attack.

Thanks!

[Contrast]

A ranger is a little difficult because a lot depends on spells, chance of hitting, etc.

Rogue is easier to compare because sneak attack is nice and simple (and more closely mimics the single attack you're aiming for). A quick bit of back of the envelope math seems to show a bog standard rogue will usually be doing about twice as much damage as a bog standard person who casts Firebolt every turn.

[Specter]

If nothing is boosting the attack, then cantrips and attacks are about equivalent at 5th level. Problem is, all attacking classes have at least one way to boost that damage.

[Sir cryosin]

The basic weapon attack and cantrip is remember it just basic.
Weapon attack: 1dx+mod
Cantrip attack: 1dx
At it basic damage a weapon attack and a cantrip it the damage a weapon get from moddfier is the difference.
There are a lot more things that add to weapon damage. But there is not alot that adds to cantrip damage. that's why Eldritch blast with agonizing blast is king of cantrips. Things like dragon sorcerer, arcane cleric, invoker wizard, light cleric all have abilitys that add you'r spellcaster moddfier to damage. But that still falls behind do to not getting to many attack rolls. Now cantrips have nice rider effects.

[Giant2005]

One thing you may want to consider is that half casters don't actually get Cantrips.

[MrStabby]

Warlock itself might be a better class for comparison if you want to make a class based on cantrip attacks.

It has weak spellcasting compared to something like a wizard but compensates by being focussed on great cantrip damage. It's damage is only a little less than most optimised ranged martial characters.

[Drackolus]

Multiattack beats out standard cantrips.
The scag cantrips, however, remain somewhat competative due to their riders. If you can't take advantage of that, multiattack is still better, though it is close.
The main reason that gfb and bb are so good is that they allow you to still add a stat to the damage. At level 5, it's 2dx+stat vs 2dx+2*stat, making the damage difference (for a d8 weapon) fairly small. Once you start adding more modifiers to either side, it gets different, of course.

[Tanarii]

Big. It's generally about 1/2 to 1/3 as much damage, getting worse as levels go up.

Some numbers*:

1st level:
Cantrip ~ 4.5
Fighter with Dueling ~ 10.5
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 10
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe ~ 11.5

5th level:
Cantrip ~ 9
Fighter with Dueling ~ 23
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 22.5
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe & Advantage ~ about equivalent to 31

11th level
Cantrip ~ 13.5
Fighter with Dueling ~ 34.5
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 29.5
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe & Advantage ~ about equivalent to 36

That's before magic items buff the physical attack, or other features / feats. And not taking into account if it's a save cantrip it's DPR goes down, because saves are less likely to 'hit' than attacks, as a general rule.

* this is before hit chance, so it's assuming they're the same across the board, which won't necessarily hold true

[Notafish]

One thing you may want to consider is that half casters don't actually get Cantrips.

Neither do Monks, unless you are playing a subclass that gets cantrips.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One thing you may want to consider is that half casters don't actually get Cantrips.

That's something I'm experimenting with. I'm going for a spell-sword vibe.


Big. It's generally about 1/2 to 1/3 as much damage, getting worse as levels go up.

Some numbers*:

1st level:
Cantrip ~ 4.5
Fighter with Dueling ~ 10.5
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 10
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe ~ 11.5

5th level:
Cantrip ~ 9
Fighter with Dueling ~ 23
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 22.5
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe & Advantage ~ about equivalent to 31

11th level
Cantrip ~ 13.5
Fighter with Dueling ~ 34.5
Rogue with Sneak Attack ~ 29.5
Raging Barbarian with Greataxe & Advantage ~ about equivalent to 36

That's before magic items buff the physical attack, or other features / feats. And not taking into account if it's a save cantrip it's DPR goes down, because saves are less likely to 'hit' than attacks, as a general rule.

* this is before hit chance, so it's assuming they're the same across the board, which won't necessarily hold true

Ouch. That's more than I had thought.

My thoughts as to overcoming that gap:

Pet subclass gets the pet to add effectively weapon die + modifier when the PC casts a damaging cantrips. Stolen from UA ranger.

Weapon one gets to add a weapon attack to every cantrip cast (basically the scag cantrips with riders depending on which cantrip they cast).

Do those bring the total closer? Close enough? Guess I'll have to play test.

[DivisibleByZero]

Neither should have extra attack.

Weapon one gets to add a weapon attack to every cantrip cast (basically the scag cantrips with riders depending on which cantrip they cast).

Do those bring the total closer? Close enough? Guess I'll have to play test.

Yes, if you don't want Extra Attack, and you want a spellsword type, then give them War Magic instead of EA. That will make the numbers fairly even, and if they use the SGAC cantrips BB or GFB, then at some points they might actually be slightly superior depending on the build.

[Tanarii]

Ouch. That's more than I had thought.Take into account that cantrips usually get a bonus effect on them. At least, the good ones do.

[Foxhound438]

depends on builds, but if we're barring power attack ridiculousness, it's as so for fighters:

Level 1: weapon attack up by attack mod
Level 5: weapon attack up by double attack mod
Level 11: weapon attack up by triple attack mod
Level 17: weapon attack up 3 mods and down 1 die, so about the same as 2 mods
Level 20: weapon attack up by 4* attack mod.

So a fighter that's not building towards damage is getting something like 20 more damage than a cantrip- and of course even the best un-modified cantrip is only doing 22, so it's about double.

When you start getting into something like PAM+GWM builds, that separation explodes.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

My thoughts as to overcoming that gap

Well, it's worth remembering that the gap is intentional because high level spells are so powerful. Casters have much better things to do than use cantrips, cantrips are just there for when you run out of slots or are conserving them.

[Naanomi]

Well, it's worth remembering that the gap is intentional because high level spells are so powerful. Casters have much better things to do than use cantrips, cantrips are just there for when you run out of slots or are conserving them.
Completely true, unless you are giving Fighters a Fire-ball equivalent one shouldn't be giving Wizards a Greatsword equivalent.

Also note the math on Cantrips changes a great deal if you start getting ability mods to damage, which doesn't happen in every build but can occur often enough to make it a consideration.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Completely true, unless you are giving Fighters a Fire-ball equivalent one shouldn't be giving Wizards a Greatsword equivalent.

Also note the math on Cantrips changes a great deal if you start getting ability mods to damage, which doesn't happen in every build but can occur often enough to make it a consideration.

Right. This is a half-caster, so 5th level spells max (using ranger spell-known progression, so not very many of those either).

Thanks everyone for the guidance--I'll post a link below to the homebrewery for the (very unfinished) class I've been building if anyone wants to take a look.



The spell list is hastily cobbled together from every "elemental" spell I could find. Needs pruning and judicious additions.
The elemental servants are bland and undertuned.
The two last subclass abilities for the inward spiral path are unfinished.
All numbers need to be tweeked.



Homebrewery link: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkIv9H0ux

[BW022]

Big. It's generally about 1/2 to 1/3 as much damage, getting worse as levels go up.

Some numbers*:
...



I'll point out that such numbers don't work in practice. There are too many other things to consider.

* Melee classes often waste rounds moving or switching between targets. Ranged, less so.
* There may be cases where melee simply doesn't work, say your opponents are in a tower or flying.
* There are cases when you are forced into melee. Ambushes, falling in a pit, etc.
* All classes waste a certain amount of time on certain actions -- drinking a potion if injured, going defensive, opening doors, using magical items, casting spells, etc.
* All classes may need to waste time on defensive actions or being caught with certain effects. Certain classes are less likely to be hit by such effects and/or more likely to survive or not be incapacited by them. Melees are often subject to more of these.
* TWF or those with THW or shields may waste time getting hands free or even cases where they can't use a weapon -- such as only having one hand free when climbing.
* Melee classes often provoke opportunity attacks.
* Big single damage dealers often waste damage when faced with lesser targets.
* All weapon users often run into issues of damage reduction at higher levels. Archers can often more easily switch ammunition, but resistance to piercing can really hurt.
* Cantrip users can run into damage reduction and immunity issues.
* Cantrip users often spend rounds casting spells -- whether healing, defensive, or offensive.
* Cantrips often have effects other than damage. A cantrip which gives disadvantage on the enemies next attack... might result in being able to spend more time attacking rather than healing, casting defensive spells, etc.
* There are cases where you can't bring weapons (noble's meeting) or cases where call casting is prevented (silence).
* Ranged weapons might be useful in stealth cases -- where cantrips typically have a V component and give away.
* Ranged weapons may have cover issues, certain cantrips might now.
* There are cases were save cantrips will be dramatically better or worse than hitting AC.
* Magical weapons and ammunition.
* Effects of spells -- hex, hunter's mark, etc.
* Effects of sneak attack, horde breaker, etc.

When you factor all these in... the strict damage differences likely aren't that great or certainly not as obvious statically.

[Tanarii]

I'll point out that such numbers don't work in practice. There are too many other things to consider.

&

When you factor all these in... the strict damage differences likely aren't that great or certainly not as obvious statically.
No, they aren't precise in practice. That's why I started off with a rough range, about 1/3 to 1/2. Because there are lots of variable. And DPR isn't the best way to look at everything. But in general and overall, the difference between cantrips vs physical attacks by many martials (esp Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin or Rogue) really is that great, overall. As it should be, since they tend to be a fall-back option, and they tend to add additional effects.

[Sir cryosin]

I'll point out that such numbers don't work in practice. There are too many other things to consider.

* Melee classes often waste rounds moving or switching between targets. Ranged, less so.
* There may be cases where melee simply doesn't work, say your opponents are in a tower or flying.
* There are cases when you are forced into melee. Ambushes, falling in a pit, etc.
* All classes waste a certain amount of time on certain actions -- drinking a potion if injured, going defensive, opening doors, using magical items, casting spells, etc.
* All classes may need to waste time on defensive actions or being caught with certain effects. Certain classes are less likely to be hit by such effects and/or more likely to survive or not be incapacited by them. Melees are often subject to more of these.
* TWF or those with THW or shields may waste time getting hands free or even cases where they can't use a weapon -- such as only having one hand free when climbing.
* Melee classes often provoke opportunity attacks.
* Big single damage dealers often waste damage when faced with lesser targets.
* All weapon users often run into issues of damage reduction at higher levels. Archers can often more easily switch ammunition, but resistance to piercing can really hurt.
* Cantrip users can run into damage reduction and immunity issues.
* Cantrip users often spend rounds casting spells -- whether healing, defensive, or offensive.
* Cantrips often have effects other than damage. A cantrip which gives disadvantage on the enemies next attack... might result in being able to spend more time attacking rather than healing, casting defensive spells, etc.
* There are cases where you can't bring weapons (noble's meeting) or cases where call casting is prevented (silence).
* Ranged weapons might be useful in stealth cases -- where cantrips typically have a V component and give away.
* Ranged weapons may have cover issues, certain cantrips might now.
* There are cases were save cantrips will be dramatically better or worse than hitting AC.
* Magical weapons and ammunition.
* Effects of spells -- hex, hunter's mark, etc.
* Effects of sneak attack, horde breaker, etc.

When you factor all these in... the strict damage differences likely aren't that great or certainly not as obvious statically.


Yes but accounting for all those variables is just stupid and ridiculous cuz there's at least three different variables that affect both melee and cantrips the same so it's a really get the numbers that you would need you would just need to get rid of all those variables and just look at the cold hard facts of the math.

[Sir cryosin]

First level having resistance yeah that's a big No-No especially cuz you didn't say it was from non-magical it just said resistance from slashing piercing and bludgeoning damage. That's a little bit too powerful to get at level 1

I didn't read all of it because I got to board. But other then that I didn't see any op but I didn't get far. That lv 1 ability to identify a spells is just wired and unnecessary. You should know or your DM should allow you to meet they are can I check to see see what kind of spell they're casting but just that just to have that in there as an ability is completely and utterly useless. It provides no beneficial effects at all literally none.

[PhoenixPhyre]

First level having resistance yeah that's a big No-No especially cuz you didn't say it was from non-magical it just said resistance from slashing piercing and bludgeoning damage. That's a little bit too powerful to get at level 1

That's actually the same as barbarian rage. On a much lower health/AC chassis. Note that if they have that, they're limited to studded leather at best. The minor contracts are mutually exclusive.


I didn't read all of it because I got to board. But other then that I didn't see any op but I didn't get far. That lv 1 ability to identify a spells is just wired and unnecessary. You should know or your DM should allow you to meet they are can I check to see see what kind of spell they're casting but just that just to have that in there as an ability is completely and utterly useless. It provides no beneficial effects at all literally none.

That's actually a matter of some debate. Not all tables allow spell identification. That part's supposed to be a ribbon (ie non-mechanical, non-combat perk) anyway.

I appreciate the feedback regardless.

[Kryx]

Also note the math on Cantrips changes a great deal if you start getting ability mods to damage, which doesn't happen in every build but can occur often enough to make it a consideration.
No it doesn't. By my calculations (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1826558867) a normal cantrip can do about 7% of an equivalent level creature's health per turn. A cantrip with an ability modifier can do about 9.5%. Weapon users do about 28%.

So cantrips do about 25% of a weapon user. Add on ability modifer and that comes to about 34%.

Eldritch Blast is its own beast.

The gap is big and big for a reason - spells add tons of burst and control.