Community Tiering II: No Revotes, No Flaming, Variants at the End

[Jormengand]

Currently voting: Warblade (ToB), Warlock (CAr), Warmage (CAr), Warrior, Warrior (UA), Wilder (XPH)

So, recently there's been a lot of arguing about tiers and what class is in what tier and why, so I decided to make this thread to help the community decide together. This is a relatively involved process, and is going to take a while to complete, but at the end there'll be a complete tier list.

The rules of the thread are:

A) We are going to vote on the tiers of all base classes, except variants for another class, which were released as a 3.5 class. There are sixty-seven of these. Once the list is finished, any variants may be considered separately.

These classes are Adept, Archivist (HoH), Ardent (CPs), Aristocrat, Artificer (ECS), Barbarian, Bard, Battle Dancer (DrC), Beguiler (PH2), Binder (ToM), Cleric, Commoner, Crusader (ToB), Death Master (DrC), Divine Mind (CPs), Dragon Shaman (PH2), Dragonfire Adept (DrM), Dread Necromancer (HoH), Druid, Duskblade (PH2), Expert, Expert (UA), Factotum (Dgs), Favoured Soul (CDv), Fighter, Healer (MHB), Hexblade (CWr), Incarnate (MoI), Jester (DrC), Knight (PH2), Lurk (CPs), Magewright (ECS), Marshal (MHB), Monk, Mountebank (DrC), Mystic (DCS), Ninja (CA), Noble (DCS), Paladin, Psion (XPH), Psychic Rogue (Web), Psychic Warrior (XPH), Ranger, Rogue, Samurai (CWr), Savant (DrC), Scout (CAd), Sha'ir (DrC), Shadowcaster (ToM), Shugenja (CDv), Sorcerer, Soulborn (MoI), Soulknife (XPH), Spellcaster (UA), Spellthief (CAd), Spirit Shaman (CDv), Swashbuckler (CWr), Swordsage (ToB), Totemist (MoI), Truenamer (ToM), Warblade (ToB), Warlock (CAr), Warmage (CAr), Warrior, Warrior (UA), Wilder (XPH), Wizard and Wu Jen (CAr).


B) We are going to vote using the alternative vote system between tiers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and X. What these tiers are will be explained in a moment for those who don't know. Please write your votes like this or in another way that is easy to read: Class name: 324X561

The alternative vote system means that you put the tiers in order of preference for which you decide most accurately describes the class. For example, if you think that the Facepuncher is just tier 3, but might just slip into tier 4, you could vote "Facepuncher: 34", "Facepuncher - 3>4" or "Facepuncher 3, 4" or some other way which is clear. If on the other hand you think that the Facepuncher is clearly a tier 1, and you want to make sure it's the highest tier possible, you might vote "Facepuncher: 123456" (or the same with X thrown in somewhere). The alternative vote system is resolved by the following method:


Look at the first tier in each person's list. For each tier which got the fewest first-place votes, discount that tier.
Look at the first tier in each person's list again, removing all the tiers which you discounted in the first round.
Keep discounting tiers and looking at lists until only one tier is left.
If at any point you try to discount tiers, but then there would be none left, instead check which one got the most first-place votes. If each one got the most, check which one got the most second-place votes, and so on.
If there's still a tie, choose randomly.


For example, if the votes were 123, 321 and 421, then the class would be considered Tier 1 (because Tier 2 is discounted in the first round). Notably, this means that there is no way of making your preferred tier less likely to win by providing alternative tiers.

C) Every week, starting at (about) midnight GMT on Thursday 29 December 2016, six classes will be put up to vote. These six classes will be chosen alphabetically, for the sake of fairness. It happens to be the case that the NPC classes Expert and Warrior are in the same set of six as the generic classes of the same name. You can vote at any time during this period, even if the classes haven't been explicitly stated to be up for vote yet (EDIT: Though it's preferable that you do wait until the vote explicitly starts, your vote WILL be counted either way). This time is to be used for discussion of the six classes, so that each class is in the spotlight long enough to discuss it where needed.

D) You are strongly encouraged to include reasons with your votes. Voting for an established T1 class as 654321 without a supporting reason is likely to get your vote discounted as a troll vote. Voting for the same class as 123456 probably won't, though it's still useful to explain why.

E) Please don't use this vote for joke votes, protest votes, or discussion of whether or not the tier system is a good idea. If you don't think the tier system is an accurate decription of classes, then what can you possibly hope to gain by posting in a thread for making the tier system? This is meant to be a useful resource for DMs and players, so the tier 1 commoner meme isn't a good idea - even if it's an obvious joke, it will throw doubt on whether or not the rest of this thread is serious. This thread is also not for arguing about how the tiers should be defined - they are what they are, and having more than one conflicting standard for tiering is only really going to cause confusion.

EDIT:

F) To clear up some confusion: you are expected to vote for your preference during the 7 days you have to do so. While the time you have may not be exactly 7 days, it is always as soon as feasible after a minute past midnight GMT Thursday. There are no re-votes.

G) To clear up some more confusion: You should consider the original printing of the class, plus any errata. Do not consider alternate class features, substitution levels, variants of that class, or anything else which intrinsically alters what class it actually is. After the vote, these may be considered as though they were separate classes. You may also consider the class with access to variants in general at that time. If you try to consider the class with variants before this time, I will ignore your vote. If you include separate votes for variants, the separate vote will be ignored but the vote for the original class will be considered.

H) To prevent the excessive levels of antagonism that have been present in the thread, do not attack other posters or the thread procedure. This is really basic stuff. If you do, your account will be added to my ignore list. I appreiate that this is an extreme measure, but "Don't attack people for their views on a game" is really, really basic stuff.


My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group. If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters. If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity. Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members. Neither is desireable. Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the PCs in their group

2) To provide players with knowledge of where their group stands, power wise, so that they can better build characters that fit with their group.

3) To help DMs who plan to use house rules to balance games by showing them where the classes stand before applying said house rules (how many times have we seen DMs pumping up Sorcerers or weakening Monks?).

4) To help DMs judge what should be allowed and what shouldn't in their games. It may sound cheesy when the Fighter player wants to be a Half Minotaur Water Orc, but if the rest of his party is Druid, Cloistered Cleric, Archivist, and Artificer, then maybe you should allow that to balance things out. However, if the player is asking to be allowed to be a Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer and the rest of the party is a Monk, a Fighter, and a Rogue, maybe you shouldn't let that fly.

5) To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier. Generally, I like Tier 3 as a balance point, but I know many people prefer Tier 4. If it's stronger than Tier 1, you definitely blew it.

This post is NOT intended to state which class is "best" or "sucks." It is only a measure of the power and versitliity of classes for balance purposes.

Psionic classes are mostly absent simply because I don't have enough experience with them. Other absent classes are generally missing because I don't know them well enough to comment, though if I've heard a lot about them they're listed in itallics. Note that "useless" here means "the class isn't particularly useful for dealing with situation X" not "it's totally impossible with enough splat books to make a build that involves that class deal with situation X." "Capable of doing one thing" means that any given build does one thing, not that the class itself is incapable of being built in different ways. Also, "encounters" here refers to appropriate encounters... obviously, anyone can solve an encounter with purely mechanical abilities if they're level 20 and it's CR 1.

Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier in terms of tier descriptions, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

As a further note, some classes have specific variants or options to them that drastically change their abilities. These classes are noted on multiple tiers. If a variant is not mentioned, it's in the same Tier as the standard class (for example, the Cloistered Cleric is not mentioned because it's T1 like the Cleric. The same goes for the Battle Sorcerer and the Wilderness Rogue). Classes in blue are on the high side of their Tier and can easily move up. Classes in red are on the low side of their Tier and can easily move down.

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Note that a few classes are right on the border line between tiers.

JaronK

Tier X is the place that classes get left behind if they don't scale with optimisation like they're supposed to. Essentially, if an Omnipotent One and a Suckimancer are badly optimised, then the Omnipotent One will still be better than the Suckimancer. The same is true if they're both well optimised. Sure, a well-optimised Suckimancer played by someone who knows what they're doing can be better than the Omnipotent One, but assuming the same optimisation level, the Omnipotent One is still Tier 1 and the Suckimancer is still Tier 5, whatever that optimisation level is. But the Variturge just won't play fair. A badly-played Variturge is worse than even a badly-played Suckimancer, but a well-played Variturge is better than a well-played Suckimancer - even when the two classes are the same optimisation level, it matters a great deal what that optimisation level is. Tier X is essentially what happens when there's no one single tier that you can reasonably put a class into.

Classes currently being voted on are marked with a V.

Adept 4
Archivist (HoH) 1
Ardent (CPs) 2
Aristocrat 6
Artificer (ECS) 1
Barbarian 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21538600&viewfull=1#post21538600)
Bard 3
Battle Dancer (DrC) 5
Beguiler (PH2) 3
Binder (ToM) 3
Cleric 1
Commoner 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21567851&viewfull=1#post21567851)
Crusader (ToB) 3
Death Master (DrC) 2
Divine Mind (CPs) 5
Dragon Shaman (PH2) 5
Dragonfire Adept (DrM) 3
Dread Necromancer (HoH) 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21595307&viewfull=1#post21595307)
Druid 1
Duskblade (PH2) 3
Expert 5
Expert (UA) 4/5
Factotum (Dgs) 3
Favoured Soul (CDv) 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21622480&viewfull=1#post21622480)
Fighter 5
Healer (MHB) 3
Hexblade (CWr) 4
Incarnate (MoI) 3
Jester (DrC) 3
Knight (PH2) 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21645222&viewfull=1#post21645222)
Lurk (CPs) 3
Magewright (ECS) 5
Marshal (MHB) 4
Monk 5
Mountebank (DrC) 5
Mystic (DCS) 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21665623&viewfull=1#post21665623)
Ninja (CA) 4
Noble (DCS) 5
Paladin 4
Psion (XPH) 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21694244&viewfull=1#post21694244)
Psychic Rogue (Web) 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516038-Community-Tiering-II-No-Revotes-No-Flaming-Variants-at-the-End&p=21767975&viewfull=1#post21767975)
Psychic Warrior (XPH) 3
Ranger 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21694244&viewfull=1#post21694244)
Rogue 4
Samurai (CWr) 5
Savant (DrC) 4
Scout (CAd) 4
Sha'ir (DrC) 1
Shadowcaster (ToM) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes&p=21717587&viewfull=1#post21717587)
Shugenja (CDv) 3
Sorcerer 2
Soulborn (MoI) 5
Soulknife (XPH) 5
Spellcaster (UA) 2
Spellthief (CAd) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516038-Community-Tiering-II-No-Revotes-No-Flaming-Variants-at-the-End&p=21740858&viewfull=1#post21740858)
Spirit Shaman (CDv) 2
Swashbuckler (CWr) 5
Swordsage (ToB) 3
Totemist (MoI) 3
Truenamer (ToM) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516038-Community-Tiering-II-No-Revotes-No-Flaming-Variants-at-the-End&p=21767975&viewfull=1#post21767975)
Warblade (ToB) 3/4
Warlock (CAr) 3
Warmage (CAr) 3
Warrior 6
Warrior (UA) 4
Wilder (XPH) 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516038-Community-Tiering-II-No-Revotes-No-Flaming-Variants-at-the-End&p=21791429&viewfull=1#post21791429)
Wizard 1
Wu Jen (CAr) 1
Abberation HD 6
Animal HD 6
Construct HD 6
Dragon HD 5
Elemental HD 6
Fey HD 6
Giant HD 6
Humanoid HD 6
Magical Beast HD 6
Monstrous Humanoid HD 6
Ooze HD 6
Outsider HD 5
Plant HD 6
Undead HD 6
Vermin HD 6

At the time of posting, the classes being voted on were the Rogue, Samurai (CWr), Savant (DrC), Scout (CAd), Sha'ir (DrC), Shadowcaster (ToM)

[GilesTheCleric]

Link to first thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510408-Community-Tiering-for-all-3-5-Base-Classes).

[Karl Aegis]

If I recall correctly, there was an addendum to part C of the rules, specifically this part:

"You can vote at any time during this period, even if the classes haven't been explicitly stated to be up for vote yet."

Something to the effect of, "Please wait until voting officially begins to vote." Maybe change that part to reflect that?

[Jormengand]

I'll state that it's preferable. I'll still count votes if they're too early, but it does make it easier if they're after the voting's been called.

[Karl Aegis]

Rogue, Samurai (CWr), Savant (DrC), Sha'ir (DrC), Shadowcaster (ToM)
Honestly, there is so much to dig through for these classes that I don't really want to dig through them. Two-weapon fighting still sucks on all of them. Abstain.

Scout (CAd): 4
While I can build one to deal ridiculous amounts of damage, I can't justify a class that doesn't interact with enemy saves being in Tier 3. Usually you would want to chip away at an enemy with Spring Attack before moving in for the kill with Leap Attack with a reach weapon. Extra damage from skirmish is close enough to the damage lost from a few extra points of BAB Power Attacking that losing the BAB is worth the extra things you pick up.

[Jormengand]

Incidentally, results from last thread: Lurk 3, Magewright 5, Marshal 4, Monk 5, Mountebank 5, Mystic 2, Ninja 4, Noble 5, Paladin 4, Psion 2, Psychic Warrior 3, Ranger 4

[MisterKaws]

Rogue 3

This class was used as the very definition of Tier 3 in the original tiers list, so this sort vote is kind of predictable.

Rogues have a lot of skills, which include all stealth skills, dungeon-delving skills, detection skills, movements skills, social skills, and even the all-powerful UMD. They have the points to back up the learning of all those skills, which makes them very versatile in out-of-combat situations. In combat, they can handle themselves by using stealth and flanking to their advantage, and with UMD, they can always have an extra trick or two up their sleeve. Good enough to handle all situations, but never overpowering: a perfect Tier 3.

Samurai (CWr) 56

The CW Samurai is a class based in Two-Weapon Fighting, and Intimidation - two relatively sub-par strategies. Yet, that's not the worst part: it does those badly.

Some other classes also use those two strategies, and can apply them well enough to net them a T4 rating, but Samurai is just very bad at it. Sure, it might be able to handle high-level encounters if all you fight are armies of fleshy foes with no fear immunity or damage resistance, but how many of those do you encounter in the penta-dimensional magic-psionic hyper-chess that is high-level D&D? A Samurai needs heavy optimization just to be able to be at the same party as a standard unoptimized Rogue.

Savant (DrC) 3

The Savant is a well-rounded character, not unlike the Bard. With its skills and magic expertise, a Savant can fill in for anything needed, while still being primarily focused on support. It is well-prepared for most situations, with its various abilities, but limited in power by their low output.

Scout (CAd) 4

The Scout, in itself, is just the Rogue's awkward cousin. It can only excel in combat and exploration, and it's never overpowered in nature. With proper optimization and multiclassing, a Scout can be a bit more versatile or stronger, but so can any other classes. It is mostly used as a 3-level dip for a reason.

Sha'ir (DrC) 13

The Sha'ir has unrestricted access to a very nice spell list, and can prepare spells on the fly, which is often very good. It even has a higher DM resistance than a Wizard, Archivist or Artificer, since it doesn't need GP or any gold items - unlike Wizard and Archivist, which can be somewhat restricted by not giving them too many spells, and Artificer, which can be restricted by GP rewards. Of course, that only works when the DM is trying to follow RAW, but it's still a form of power.

Its great amount of needed pauses, however, is something that worries me a bit. I've never played one, so I wouldn't know, but in certain situations, those pauses could be just the push needed to take it into T3 power level. I doubt so, though, since most T1s also take various pauses to buff or scry, but I found it important to mention anyway.

Shadowcaster (ToM) 32

Good amount of skills through high int, level 9... spells? And some great exclusive feats and items make Shadowcaster quite versatile. Often, it looks just like any other T3 classes, without a huge amount of power. Sometimes, though, it simply obliterates everything with its huge amount of debuffs and Save-or-Suck abilities, making it look more like a T2 than anything else. It's a very confusing class, which almost makes me think of it as a 2.5.

... Actually, let's vote it as that, since expert was also added as a hybrid 4/5.

[Pleh]

Rogue: 4,5,3

Sneak Attack + Trapfinding + Skill Monkey. You never hear the end of "UMD Rogue." I think it's easier to play a poorly made rogue than a well fashioned one. Another victim of the game makers never letting certain roles have nice things. These guys should have been masters of guile and deception, so feinting, flanking, and dual wielding daggers should have been just as powerful as any combat spell of the same level, but feinting was nerfed to uselessness, flanking is good, but requires pretty decent mobility, and TWF works at the cost of every resource other characters get to spend on luxury features.

These guys were clearly written along with most of the martial classes to balance with a T4 adventure. They just don't have the options a T1/T2 caster has.

Samurai: 5,6,4

I remember my first time seeing this class in Complete Warrior and thinking, "Oh, cool!" Then reading the class features and immediately changing my thought to, "Darn. What a waste."

TWF, but you have to use specific weapons. Ouch. TWF isn't quite good enough for that to make much head room and the Samurai weapons aren't super enough to really make this worth it.

A Smite attack with no restriction on the target? Yes, please, but the Paladin's smite at least has the advantage of being able to optimize how often you can use it. Being able to do this once a day at level 3 and four times a day at level 17 basically means you will forget you even have this feature most of the time.

Would have been really cool if they had written this variant smite more like Power Attack: that it's a trade off you choose whether or not to activate. Like you choose to sacrifice your ability to make AoO in order to gain CHA to attack and damage due to how focused you are on your chosen target. Something to let you use this as often as you need, just like PA.

Iaijutsu?! Oh, wait, no that's just Quick Draw for only Samurai weapons. Yawn.

Staredown could possibly synergize with fear based builds. In fact, making Frightful Presence the capstone feature seems to imply that the Samurai was intended to be a fear based paladin character. This might be the best way to pushing the Tier up out of the uselessness holes it is prone to. Unfortunately, I think the best bet for making successful characters with this class will still be getting the heck out of it as soon as possible.

Savant: Abstain

I'm looking at the class. Never really heard of it before, so I don't feel qualified to judge. Looks like a Rogue clone that looked a little too close at the Factotum's notebook and then snuck into the Mystic Thurge's back pocket while they weren't looking. Probably around a 3 if there spell selection is any good, but it looks like their spell level caps at 4, so they might not even make it that far.

Scout: 4,3,5

When I'm honest with myself, I'm the kind of player that most every character I play ends up being a scout. When I'm honest with myself, I don't think I've ever felt inclined to take 20 levels of scout. It's just not the kind of class that makes you want to take every level it offers.

It DOES, however, have a tremendously diptastic feel. It's like the adhesive that glues Rogues, Rangers, Monks, and Ninjas together in its own quirky little way. Take a few "class stacking" feats like Swift Hunter and let the natural synergy of these classes flow.

Unfortunately, for the purposes of tiering the class by itself, this leaves it a lower tier than one may feel it deserves. It's got a solid support chassis and respectable class features. But, at the end of the day, a Scout just doesn't have the staying power of a Frontliner or a caster.

I suspect my fondness for the class stems from my own soft spot for classes that succeeded because they never worked to be powerful, but offered players the opportunity to simply deal with their problems in a different way. Sneaky characters who like to outmaneuver their opponents rather than bludgeon them with hammers and magic. It does its shtick well enough, but leaves a lot of room for being able to do other things.

Sha'ir: 1,2,3

They have access to sorcerer/wizard spells + domain spells. I think that's enough to be T1 by itself, assuming you know what spells you need to pick.

Shadowcaster: 3,4,5

A quick look at a shadowcaster handbook tells me what I need to know.

They are somewhat limited casters, so that puts them in the sorcerer/bard range in my mind. They get Still Mastery pretty easily, allowing them to use armor, and many Shadowcasters emphasize a Cha synergy, making them excellent Dreadful builds.

Let's see, a shadow themed, armored caster who uses fear and magic to outmaneuver enemies? Sounds like Batman, which is a good step in the right direction.

Maybe it's my inexperience with the class talking, but this class looks very promising. Like a solid bard, it shouldn't have much trouble keeping up in a high tier campaign, but it also shouldn't leave the martials completely in the dust in a low tier game.

EDIT: Forgot Scout

[Grod_The_Giant]

Incidentally, results from last thread: Lurk 3, Magewright 5, Marshal 4, Monk 5, Mountebank 5, Mystic 2, Ninja 4, Noble 5, Paladin 4, Psion 2, Psychic Warrior 3, Ranger 4
Lurk at 3, Marshal and Paladin up to 4. Yeeesss...

[Jormengand]

Oh yeah, can voting things like "Borderline between 4 and 5" or "4 1/2" be a thing that people don't do? Vote 54 or 45. I don't think it changed any tiers, but I can't count that as a vote. The reason expert ended up as 4/5 was that it had exactly equal votes for 4 and 5, not because anyone actually tried to vote it as four and a half.

[MisterKaws]

Oh yeah, can voting things like "Borderline between 4 and 5" or "4 1/2" be a thing that people don't do? Vote 54 or 45. I don't think it changed any tiers, but I can't count that as a vote. The reason expert ended up as 4/5 was that it had exactly equal votes for 4 and 5, not because anyone actually tried to vote it as four and a half.

Well, okay then. Give me a moment to change.

[Lans]

From the other thread as to why I think samura do not fall in tier 5, I wanted to debate this a little bit

Samurai (CWr) I have to go tier 6/4/5 for this. You can look at my post 2 above this one for justification. Either its a warrior that got improved initiative as a bonus feat, some one who is using a subpar fighting style or it took imperious command and is actually quite useful. It never falls in tier 5 for me.

The skill list being better is debatable. If the samurai had more skills per level I would give it to him, but as it stands Handle Animal is a good enough of skill to make the situation debatable and campaign dependent.

I think the shield proficiency of the warrior are better than everything the samurai gets combined except for improved initiative, and thats before people start actually using the samurai 'features'.


The only thing that the samurai has going for him is his intimidate abilities, which are only good if he take imperious command, at which point I would put him in tier 4

[Gemini476]

Rogue: Abstain.

Samurai (CWr): 56
It's weak and has serious issues with being locked into a subpar build, but it's also got some Intimidate-based tricks up its sleeves that makes it not completely worthless.The description of Tier 5 might as well be the boilerplate for the class: "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute."
The main argument here, I think, is whether or not it's actually good enough in its one half-decent thing that it gets into Tier 5 rather than 6.

Savant (DrC): Abstain.
Scout (CAd): Abstain.

Sha'ir (DrC): 12
It's got an extremely strong list, and is extremely versatile in casting from that list to boot. However, it's also even more dependent on planning than the Wizard, since it needs to ask for its spells literally hours in advance of casting them. This does become much less of an issue at higher levels, though, since the spells stick around for 1 hour/level.
Still, though: compare the Wizard needing fifteen minutes to prepare a spell to the Sha'ir doing so in 1d4+spell level rounds (or 1d6+spell level minutes if you don't actually know the spell), which basically makes it into a weird arcane version of the Cleric in some ways?
They also get access to a bunch of spells from domains, but those take 1d6+spell level hours to get.
It definitely shouldn't go beneath Tier 2, though, because at worst it's still basically just a funky-looking Wizard. Spending an hour to prepare spells at the beginning of the day past level 8 (i.e. when you'll get to keep them prepared for the rest of the day) means that you get to prepare... fifty-two ninth-level spells, to use a crude math example? and you can prepare them throughout the day rather than needing to actually stick around and study.
The diplomacy check is also ludicrously easy - DC20, -2/spell level, but also +1/level... Yeah, it's a strong class.

Shadowcaster (ToM): 234
Shadowcasters have an equivalent to ninth-level spells, and some quite impressive ones at that - but only ever get a very limited number of them, in a very limited way. It looks at the Wilder and weeps at the freedom it sees in power selection - getting to choose which ninth-level spell you get and also having the seventh- and eight-level spell be freely chosen as well? What a wondrous world we live in!
I'd peg it in at Tier 2, but it's a bit iffy - I could see the argument that the mysteries aren't actually that game-breaking, which pushes it down into Tier 3, and I can also see the argument that it's forced into such specialization (due to the very way its path system works) that it sinks to Tier 4.
Mostly because the early game sucks incredibly much for them, mind you. IIRC they don't truly begin to shine until, what, level 7ish? It also doesn't help that the really impressive mysteries (Black Labyrinth is sick) are tied to less-impressive Paths.
They've got issues, but I'm still rooting for them. It's a neat little class, and far too overlooked.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Say what now? Why would you ignore your ability to know an unlimited number of spells? That's like if a Wizard took her 2 spells known per level and never scribed anything else into her book.Certainly shenanigans can be pulled, but there are only so many hours in a day and at some point you have to stop and actually use those spells. I think we can both excuse TO infinite time usage....

[Jormengand]

All right, time's up, let's do this:

Shugenja (CDv)
Sorcerer
Soulborn (MoI)
Soulknife (XPH)
Spellcaster (UA)
Spellthief (CAd)

[MisterKaws]

Shugenja (CDv): 32

So limited!

Just having a limited spell list would push a class into T2, but one with nearly no good high-level spells, that can only be cast in an odd three-way division? Too many limits. Most T2 casters have less known spells because they can cast from their limited spell selection as they see fit, but not Shugenja. It has an extremely limited list of spells, and can only use certain spells in certain slots, giving you no versatility. And to top all that, it has none of the truly game-breaking spells.

Edit: Redacted after having my mistake pointed out by noce. I went to re-read the Shugenja once more before posting to get the details, but I apparently mis-read it as a prepared class. Being spontaneous makes it... less worse, but they still have to cast their spells in this 1 Order + 2~3 Element +1~2 (+Cha) Extra spells division, which is just too odd, and really adds too many limits.

Sorcerer 2

The apex of T2. Sorcerer is the class with the most raw power in the game, limited solely by having a small amount of spells known. I don't think I need to justify this vote any further.

Soulborn (MoI) 54

"Let's make a book about a new system, then make a class without any of that in the same book. Sounds good, right? Right?!"

Soulborn gets the worst Soulmeld list, a crappy half-progression, and only gets full BAB, better proficiencies and higher HD(on a book about con-based classes) in exchange for it. Not worth it.

You can't even use it as a skillmonkey, since you have so few slots for melds.

Well, at least you get Timeless Body at 19th level...

Soulknife (XPH) 54

It's like a Rogue, but you can't throw your weapon at level 1, have to wait until level 17 to be able to throw it more than once, have a slower Sneak Attack progression - which can also only be used once per round and doesn't work at all after 13th, when everyone and their uncle has Mind Blank - and no locksmithing or UMD.

Also, your weapon is actually crap, and it doesn't even exist in an AMF unless you succeed in a Will save.

Spellcaster (UA) 21

I can't honestly decide whether this is a T2 or T1. It does have a limited(?) spell selection, but those few known spells can be hand-picked from 98% of all spells ever published, and you get to cast all of them with your chosen ability score. You can even go in full armor if you decide to cast them as Divine.

At least it can't pick Sorcerer spells. That would be ridiculous.

Spellthief (CAd) 34

It's a Rogue, but you get 1-4 spell progression, and have class features that directly counter the most used BBEG archetype in this game - the mad wizard. I think that's good enough to justify a spot in T3.

[Lans]

Shugenja (CDv) 3
Sorcerer 2
Soulborn (MoI) 5 Better than samurai by a good margin
Soulknife (XPH) 5 better than monk
Spellcaster (UA) 2
Spellthief (CAd) 4 falls in line with rogue, 3 if you can abuse spell like abilities

[noce]

Shugenja: 3,4,2
It combines the worst of sorcerer and beguiler: fixed short list, but it doesn't know all its spell list.
On top of that, you have to sacrifice 1/4 of your spell list.
No class features, but fortunately charisma SAD, so you're a dip away from DMM.

The class can contribute in every encounter, with decent spells in pretty much every level, but those spells are scattered in different elements so chances are you'll only know half of the useful ones.
It's maybe the worst full caster ever printed (excluding NPC classes). It really relies on dips to function decently, and you risk crippling yourself picking the wrong element or order.


Sorcerer: 2
I'd say T3 just to do justice to the beguiler.
But honestly, both classes belong to T2, with sorcerer being the standard for the tier.


Soulborn: 5
Utterly worthless class. Three bonus feat are not enough to make up for what the class lacks.
A single soulmeld but no essentia at lvl 4. A point of essentia at lvl 6. First bind at lvl 8.
Class soulmelds are not as good as incarnate or totemist ones, either.

A fighter can use all his standard feats for incarnum feats and all his bonus feats for fighting: he'll be a both a better fighter and a better meldshaper than the Soulborn.


Soulknife: 6,5
People seems to either love or hate this class.
To me, it's just a medium bab, non psionic, kensai-like class with double the levels and half the benefits of a real kensai.
Totally unsynergized, gets class features to throw his mind blade but is really unable to do so effectively until lvl 17.
In melee the only thing you get is a 1/encounter bonus damage, and you're limited to crappy weapon shapes unless you spend a feat.
If you really want to play a Soulknife, go Soulbow.

I originally voted 5, but changed to 6,5 after reading the discussion. I voted this way because I think that a Soulknife that DOESN'T use his class features is better than one that does.


Spellcaster: 2,1
One fewer spell per day per level than sorcerer, otherwise better in any other way.
Pick your skills, pick your save (I'd take Fort), pick your casting stat, pick arcane/divine, pick spells from a spell list bigger than the Voodan's.
On top of this, bonus feats.

Maybe it could reach T1, it looks like a very exploitable class.


Spellthief: abstain
It looks like a T4 to me, an unusual skillmonkey that tries to do more things than rogue/assassin while being less capable than rogue/assassin.

[noce]

Shugenja (CDv): 32

So limited!

Just having a limited spell list would push a class into T2, but one with nearly no good high-level spells, that still has to prepare them in an odd three-way division? Too many limits. Most T2 casters have less known spells because they can cast from their limited spell selection as they see fit, but not Shugenja. It has an extremely limited list of spells, and still needs to prepare each of them, giving you no versatility. And to top all that, it has none of the truly game-breaking spells.

Shugenja are spontaneous casters.

[Pleh]

Shugenja (CDv) abstain
Clearly just an elemental spellcaster class, but I really am not familiar enough with their spell selection to be able to judge the class. Pretty much their spells are their only real class feature, so they can only be judged by their spells, which I just am not familiar enough with.

Sorcerer 2
From what I understand, this is more or less poster child for T2, mostly on the basis that a Sorcerer could do anything that a Wizard could do, but can't just change hats the next day and then do anything else the Wizard could do. I don't see much reason to change their Tier.

Soulborn (MoI) 5,6
Poor Soulborn. It's like the game creators just hated the idea of players having a competent Paladin style class. Unlike what other people have said so far, I was under the impression that they actually had some of the nicer Soulmelds, which only made the rest of their unusability all that much more disheartening as they were the only ones with access to those soulmelds.

But regardless if their soulmelds are good or not, they can't even use them until 4th level (because paladins can't have nice things).

Why the game makers couldn't just let Paladins smite once a round is something I will always be confounded by.

Soulknife (XPH) 5,4
I dunno. Never played one before, but it's kinda neat that you have that same, "always armed" edge like a monk, but get to play as a rogue. Kind of stinks that the cloak and dagger is all you get to do, compared to the actual Rogue who could probably pull off the same shtick with some kind of magic dagger that could be turned on and off. Then on top of that a Rogue gets to be useful at doing other things, too. This guy, as sweet as his main ability feels, seems a little shallow in the "auxiliary utility" field that pushes the Rogue up a bit and even his main ability doesn't really inspire much confidence for me. Seems like most magic weapons will end up outperforming the mind blade.

Maybe not a bad dip for a Rogue just so they have the mind blade that they can always fall back on as a backup in case plans go south.

Spellcaster (UA) 2,3,1
Someone mentioned earlier that you can cast in full armor as divine, but remember that the class doesn't give you any proficiency with anything but a single simple weapon of your choice. You'll be taking the non-proficient penalties with your armor or else be burning your feats to get the proficiency.

It looks pretty great. Access to all the spells from the strongest casting classes in the game? Choose your casting ability? Sounds pretty definitively T2, bare minimum.

Spellthief (CAd) 3,4
Rogue plus spellcasting and a fun trick to drain spells from enemy casters. That's not all. 6+Int mod skill points. And your class skills don't suck.

It's not game-breaking by any means, but if you're not competent to pull your own weight in the party, I think you're just plain doing it wrong.

[noce]

For people arguing wheter a Spellcaster can or cannot wear full plate:
Samurai wears full plate. He sucks.
Wizard doesn't wear full plate. His spell list is a subset of Spellcaster spell list. He is great.

In my opinion, choosing arcane or divine is less a matter of which armor you wear and more a matter of which casting stat you use and which prestige classes you can take.

[Karl Aegis]

Soulknife! SOULKNIFE!

Soulknife and its prestige classes have the silliest crunch in the game. Read carefully enough some pretty wonky things can happen.

First up is the Knife to the Soul ability. It allows you to convert any and all bonus dice into ability damage. The lack of qualifier for being only psychic strike dice leads to silliness where you can convert sneak attack dice and weapon enhancement dice like flaming or shocking burst into ability damage. Pretty silly.

Next, we have the Soulbow prestige class. It's enhancement bonus to attack on it's mind arrows is added to the base attack bonus of the Soulknife. You can actually get more iterative attacks from this. It's different from literally every other prestige class. With enough levels the BAB from your Soulknife class can exceed your levels in Soulknife! Really poor editing.

Finally, Mind Arrows themselves. You can wield one in your main hand and your off hand. Two weapon fighting with ranged weapons. You can circumvent the accuracy loss by making all your arrows Lucky to reroll your misses. Since the enhancement is added to each individual arrow, you get around the daily limit. Not so much as bad wording as it is someone not thinking things through.

But, really, one trick that comes so late that it doesn't matter at all and having a particularly noticeable prestige class shouldn't effect their tier much. Their real class feature is not having to invest money into a weapon so they can divide their money more into wondrous trinkets and magical doodads. I think I saw somewhere some gloves that gave your mind blade silvered weapons, but I'm preeetty sure that was Dragon Magazine.

[Mehangel]

Shugenja (CDv) 3,4
Normally with it being a Full-caster (access to 9th level spells), I would've given it a minimum of Tier 2 rating. Unfortunately its list in my opinion isn't even as "good" as the beguiler. In addition, I saw few (if any) spells that I consider troublemaker spells (such as Wish/Miracle, Gate, Planar Ally/Binding, etc).
Sorcerer 2,1,3
Sorcerer is the poster child for tier 2, however I have seen several sorcerer builds that were a better wizard than the wizard. On the other hand, I have personally seen first hand sorcerers that were optimized just as much as the rest of the party and only reached what I would best describe as Tier 3.
Soulborn (MoI) 5,6
Soulknife (XPH) 5,6,4
The class sucks and not difficult to fall into trap options.
Spellcaster (UA) 2,3,1
Spellthief (CAd) 3,4

[Grod_The_Giant]

Certainly shenanigans can be pulled, but there are only so many hours in a day and at some point you have to stop and actually use those spells. I think we can both excuse TO infinite time usage....
It's not "shenanigans." Unknown arcane spells only take a few minutes to retrieve. They're best used for obscure situational utility spells, sure (because your spells known list is huge), but a 10th level Sha'ir filling every single (non-0-level) slot with unknown arcane spells takes an average of 1 hour and 15 minutes, barely more than a Druid or Wizard.

[lylsyly]

Shugenja: Abstain Haven't played one, haven't seen one played. Hmm ... maybe that is telling in itself?

Sorcerer: 2 The poster child for T2. Could go with 2/1 but there has been enough of that debate.

Soulborn: 5/6 What were the designers thinking ...

Soulknife: 5 Bad class altogether IMO, but I do agree that it may make a good rogue dip depending on what your looking for.

Spellcaster: 2 Personally I like this better than Sorcerer (I use this sometimes depending on the campaign). Yes, you do get fewer spells per day ... but you also get bonus feats and access to virtually ALL the spells. Worried about Armor for Divine Casting ... just dip Expert at 1st and grab some extra skills along the way.

Spellthief: 4/3 Played well, it can be a good class (we have one in our group), still don't think I would go for a straight tier 3 though.

just my 2 coppers
YMMV

[MisterKaws]

Shugenja are spontaneous casters.

Thanks. I apparently mis-read that when I went to re-read it this morning. Redacted.

[Troacctid]

Certainly shenanigans can be pulled, but there are only so many hours in a day and at some point you have to stop and actually use those spells. I think we can both excuse TO infinite time usage....
You can literally learn new spells as a free action. You don't have to spend any time scribing them.

[Bucky]

Here's some misc. stuff for Soulknife that's hard to get for other classes
* Ability to bypass DR/Magic inside an AMF
* Literal unlimited ammo
* Ability to reassign weapon enhancements in the field, although sadly not within an encounter
* Extreme resistance to the Disarm and Sunder actions
* Ability to one-shot anything with the Animal type, no save, by level 13

Also, their Wild Talent bonus feat pays a feat tax for a lot of good psionic gish feats.

[Cosi]

Shadowcaster (ToM): 234
Shadowcasters have an equivalent to ninth-level spells, and some quite impressive ones at that - but only ever get a very limited number of them, in a very limited way. It looks at the Wilder and weeps at the freedom it sees in power selection - getting to choose which ninth-level spell you get and also having the seventh- and eight-level spell be freely chosen as well? What a wondrous world we live in!

Are you looking at a different list than I am? At a glance, its best options at 9th are time stop (admittedly good, but what are you really doing without access to Delay Spell or buffs?) and a version of dominate monster that, while AoE, seems to last all of one round. The other options are really bad. Single target Save-or-Dies and what looks like a summon elemental swarm variant are not close to good enough. Plus the low level lists are really bad.


Spellcaster (UA) 21

I can't honestly decide whether this is a T2 or T1. It does have a limited(?) spell selection, but those few known spells can be hand-picked from 98% of all spells ever published, and you get to cast all of them with your chosen ability score. You can even go in full armor if you decide to cast them as Divine.

Pilfering a Sorcerer-sized list from Cleric/Druid/Wizard isn't that good. Most Druid or Cleric spells aren't as good as Wizard spells, and you're still sharply limited. If you could steal from stupid obscure lists like Demonologist or Death Master it would be good, but as is it's just clearly better than the Sorcerer (you class features and marginally better casting, in exchange for an insignificant drop in spells per day), but not enough to compete with the Wizard.

[Bucky]

Does Spellcaster have access to domain spells?

[Grod_The_Giant]

* Literal unlimited ammo
Not usefully. Even when you get Free Draw, you can only manifest it once per round until level 17.

[lylsyly]

Does Spellcaster have access to domain spells?

Considering that the Spellcaster has access to the big three lists and that most of the domain spells are on one of the big three lists?

[Troacctid]

Does Spellcaster have access to domain spells?
Technically no. Functionally, it doesn't matter because there are not a lot of domain spells that aren't also on one of the big three spell lists.

[noce]

Does Spellcaster have access to domain spells?

Like other people said, they have access to most spells anyway.
If you want a particular domain power or domain-only spells, spellcaster can easily dip contemplative.

[Gemini476]

Are you looking at a different list than I am? At a glance, its best options at 9th are time stop (admittedly good, but what are you really doing without access to Delay Spell or buffs?) and a version of dominate monster that, while AoE, seems to last all of one round. The other options are really bad. Single target Save-or-Dies and what looks like a summon elemental swarm variant are not close to good enough. Plus the low level lists are really bad.

The big famous one is Black Labyrinth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a), but that one is usually reserved for BBEGs since it's a bit over-the-top.

There's some more interesting stuff in the list, though - Ephemeral Storm is a CL/2-target non-[Death] Evocation save-or-die (fort partial) (Wail of the Banshee with less targets but also, well, not [Death, Sonic]), the one [Death] save-or-die targets Will and is also a short-duration Dominate Monster-esque effect to boot (probably worse than the eight-level touch attack Dominate Monster mystery, though), the AoE Dominate Monster effect really doesn't need much more than a single round to be good if you're creative (but you can extend it with a metashadow feat, if you want - still, high levels are enough rocket tag that you can have them all aim their rocket launchers at eachother if you wish), and Reflections of Things to Come is a better Foresight.

You can also make them undispellable, if you want, but it's a bit of a pain. Grab Favored Mystery(Soul Puppet) at level 18 and 20 for undispellable Dominate Monster, for instance. (I'd recommend against it, but if you really want to you could get some undispellable quickened extended silent non-line-of-effect domination rays going. The metashadow stuff can get a bit silly.)


The main problem is that you only get two of those (Foresight and Time Stop, probably), and getting them requires you to grab a mixed bag of fixed lower-level prerequisites. There's some cool eighth-level spells that you probably won't get since the ninth-level capstone sucks. And the opposite. Want Black Labyrinth but don't care for Menagerie of Darkness? Tough luck. And the same goes for spell levels 2-3 and 5-6, of course.

It's a strong-ish class and has some tricks that it can pull, but it suffers heavily from the path system. You can still do some broken stuff with it, but a lot of that is just because Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4 is a totally valid 17/17 build. Otherwise it's a somewhat clunky class and lacks the support and polish to make it popular - it's not the Binder, it takes time to actually get good and you might not want to suffer through six levels.

You know how even the Truenamer has some cool stuff going on, it's just that there's so much bad in the middle that makes it not worth it? "Truenamer 20 is not worth Truenamer 19" and all that. It's not quite that bad, but it's in a similar situation.

[thoroughlyS]

Sorry for not really contributing, but why was the Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) left off of the list of base classes? It's not a variant of the Rogue, but an entirely separate class. Psychic Rogue:Rogue as Psychic Warrior:Fighter. I've also read that it has a distinct enough crunch from the Lurk, which was more of a spiritual successor.

A quick search of the first thread didn't show any discussion of this prior.

[Troacctid]

I actually didn't notice that it was left off. That's certainly an oversight. Could we pick it up in the next round?

[VisitingDaGulag]

Shugenja (CDv) T3: downgraded from an elemental sorcerer, but still has goodies. Best if you ignore the fluff and do your own thing.
Sorcerer T2: posterchild. Access to the best list, but you can't have them all at once.
Soulborn (MoI) T5: the most limited incarnum class aside from PrCs. In fact, several of the PrCs are better. Takes extreme effort to do anything with it that other classes can't do. Just be a Multiclass totemist instead.
Soulknife (XPH) T5: You are not really a psionic class. You have one trick and it sucks. Again PrC options like soulbow are manditory rather than gravy.
Spellcaster (UA) T2 but wonky apples to oranges. Technically if thrown in (against the "you shouldn't also use the standard character classes" rule) with other classes, allows arcane and divine versions of the wizard/sorc, cleric, and druid lists which is a no-no. Erudites anyone?
Spellthief (CAd) T4: You are supposed to be a spell stealer, but you're really just an SLA stealer. Can work if your party optimizes around you since invocations can now be shared.

[Lans]

Do you think the Shugenja is tier 3 if you
Add spells with strong elemental or weather themes. to its list?

[noce]

Do you think the Shugenja is tier 3 if you *add elemental spells* to its list?

It's really not that simple.
For example, lightning bolt is in the FIRE element, and is cast as a 4th level spell.

I think that if you add every elemental spell ever printed, and you add them at level, you could bring Shugenja to T2, but this is not what you should do since the class is designed to have a short spell list.
Adding a few spells is ok, but won't change much.

[Gemini476]

It's really not that simple.
For example, lightning bolt is in the FIRE element, and is cast as a 4th level spell.

I think that if you add every elemental spell ever printed, and you add them at level, you could bring Shugenja to T2, but this is not what you should do since the class is designed to have a short spell list.
Adding a few spells is ok, but won't change much.

I'm not actually sure that this is true? They seem to have changed their minds come the Spell Compendium, at least - compare and contrast:

Shugenja (Complete Divine): Add spells with strong elemental or weather themes. The druid spell list is a good place to look.

Demonologist/Disciple of Thrym/Fatemaker/Maho-Tsukai/Mortal Hunter/Prime Underdark Guide/Sohei:
The [~CLASSNAME]'s spell list is intentionally narrow. Carefully consider the consequences of expanding the list.

Warmage (Miniatures Handbook): Expanding the warmage spell list isn’t recommended. The warmage has a limited list of spells to balance its power and adding spells might tip that balance. If you’d like to add to the list anyway, try replacing access to spells rather than simply giving the warmage a wider range of spells to choose from. Of course, when a warmage gains the advanced learning class feature, the evocation spells in this book offer many options.

Shaman (Oriental Adventures): Shamans have a spell list that is a blend of druid and cleric, but they should not get all the spells clerics and druids do. Examine the spell lists of both those classes for good choices. Also, consider using the cleric domains presented in this book as shaman domains.

Wu Jen (Complete Arcane): Add spells with element (except air), wood, and metal themes.
There's not even anything like the Shaman's admonition that they "should not get all the spells clerics and druids do" - the Spell Compendium just says to add spells, and that's it.

Then again, this could just be a Hexblade thing where they eventually realized they had screwed up or something. Although IIRC the original Oriental Adventures one did get spell list expansions in the Rokugan supplements...

[GrayDeath]

Shugenja (CDv) T3: Love the fluff, but like most Lo5R inspired/themed D&D Material it suffers heavily from the class/Level System. Too inflexible compared to general Spellcasters of just about any kind, barely makes T3.

Sorcerer T24: Easy, this is the Definition of T2 ...unless you pick your spells at random, then its closer to T4..

Soulborn (MoI) T5: Fantastic Fluff, some neat Ideas, horrible horrible execution. Truly sad (and not the good SAD^^).

Soulknife (XPH) T5: Cool but without Fixes simply sucks.

Spellcaster (UA) T2 Pass. Never did like the generic Classes and hence no experience with it at all. Looks powerful though, obviously.

Spellthief (CAd) T43: Generally rather weak/Unfocussed class that doesn`t even do its shtick all that well .... unless you optimize the party around it, then it becomes a great supporter..

[Hurnn]

Shugenja (CDv) 3,2

9/9 casting off a small fixed list, and you can only learn bout 1/3 of the spells from the 75% you get to choose from, but its not a terrible list and would be fairly easy to add to. Definitely near the top of 3, could get into 2 with a fair amount of effort.

Sorcerer 2,1

I don't think I have to justify this one, and in all honesty I'm begining to feel like most the t2 classes should just be t1,and 2 becomes the old 3 and 3 should be in effect 3.5 because the range in power between 3 and 4 is way bigger than the gap with 1 and 2.

Soulborn (MoI) N/A

It's that pesky book I need to finish....

Soulknife (XPH) N/A

Don't do psionics.

Spellcaster (UA) 2,1

Less casts per day than a sorcerer,same amount known, but gets to choose any spell from any list. Gets any 4 skills as class skills though in reality it's more like 2 because they realistically have to choose spellcraft and concentration. Either way that's still really good. I think they may be better than the sorcerer at the top of T2.

Spellthief (CAd) 4,3

Even More MAD rogue, worse at skill monkeying, worse sneak attack progression. On the plus side, their class abilities seem pretty good, and the are half casters. I just think they have to choose be really good at 1 or 2 things or be sightly better than average at everything

[Jormengand]

Sorry for not really contributing, but why was the Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) left off of the list of base classes? It's not a variant of the Rogue, but an entirely separate class. Psychic Rogue:Rogue as Psychic Warrior:Fighter. I've also read that it has a distinct enough crunch from the Lurk, which was more of a spiritual successor.

A quick search of the first thread didn't show any discussion of this prior.

That's definitely an oversight; I mainly missed it because it was web exclusive. If it had been noticed that it was missing from the list before P or even R I might have inserted it as psychic rogue or rogue, psychic; as-is I'll probably just put it in next round with a note that yes, I know it's out of the alphabetical order, that's because I missed it, sorry.

[Cosi]

The big famous one is Black Labyrinth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a), but that one is usually reserved for BBEGs since it's a bit over-the-top.

That's cool and all, but how does that actually cause you to win? It's a really big AoE that creates a bunch of effects that screw with people's abilities, but it doesn't do anything to kill your enemies as far as I can tell.


Ephemeral Storm is a CL/2-target non-[Death] Evocation save-or-die (fort partial) (Wail of the Banshee with less targets but also, well, not [Death, Sonic]),the one [Death] save-or-die targets Will and is also a short-duration Dominate Monster-esque effect to boot (probably worse than the eight-level touch attack Dominate Monster mystery, though), the AoE Dominate Monster effect really doesn't need much more than a single round to be good if you're creative (but you can extend it with a metashadow feat, if you want - still, high levels are enough rocket tag that you can have them all aim their rocket launchers at eachother if you wish), and Reflections of Things to Come is a better Foresight.

Those aren't bad, but they're 1/day, right? That's just not enough to compete at high levels. Also, you seriously suck at low levels. At 1st level, your best offensive option looks to be "create an area of difficult terrain". That's really bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I suppose I should officially vote, huh.

Shugenja: I think Tier 3 here. Their spell list is just too limited, and lacks both broken spells and easy ways of adding more.

Sorcerer: They're the poster-children for Tier 2, and so they shall remain. Can hit T1 with sufficient cheese, but that's within the usual bonus of tier mobility.

Soulborn: Are... kind of to tier, actually. They're painfully bad all by themselves, at least for the first half of their career or so... but Incarnum all synergizes really well with itself. A Human Soulborn who just takes Cobolt feats is terrible... an Azurin Soulborn who grabs some early Shape Soulmelds (seriously, you have so few slots you'll want to grab this for your bread-and-butter melds) and Bonus Essentia looks a lot better. Unlike most low-tier martial, you bloom late; early on you're not much better than a Warrior, but I think I'd rather have a Soulborn 20 than a Barbarian 20. I guess I'll say Tier 5 because you have to sort of fight the class to get it to function, which I think is the key dividing line between 4 and 5.

Soulknife: Near the top of Tier 5-- a terrible "almost class." They don't have the BAB to be a brawler, or the skills to be a Rogue-type. They offer a ranged option, but it's terrible for pretty much your whole career. Mind Blade Enhancement could have been interesting, but the options are bland and the process takes too long. Psychic Strike is tempting, but consumes too much action to do too little damage. (Mind Cleave helps, but it's too situational to rely on). Bladewind and Knife to the Soul are nice, but come online painfully late. When your best tricks are "have extra WBL because you didn't need to buy a weapon," "Whirlwind Attack," and "Ray of Stupidity," you've got problems.

Spellcaster: A spontaneous caster, plus unspecified bonus feats. Will... probably come out looking a lot like a Sorcerer, but with Divine Metamagic. Hella good, but not, I don't think, enough better than the Sorcerer to make it into the next tier. Plus fewer good ACFs. So... Tier 2, but dang high.

Spellthief: I'm not terribly familiar, but all by yourself you're a Rogue who traded some Sneak Attack for some spellcasting off a great list-- a good start. Falls hard if you don't fight many magical enemies; rises quickly with cooperative party-mates. Possibly the most teamwork-friendly class out there. I'd say Tier 4, 3 depending.

[Jormengand]

I guess I should probably vote too.

Shugenja: Tier 3 for the reasons previously posted; their limited spell lists which have no real way of augmenting them beyond "Your DM might be nice to you" don't appeal too much.

Sorcerer: Tier 2 because, well, they always have access to the best spells on the best list in the game (whether the wizard list or the sorcerer list is actually better is debateable, but probably the sorcerer list comes out on top) but no real way to change which ones they have beyond dark chaos shuffle or other similarly unlikely tricks.

Soulborn: ? I'm not familiar with the class mechanics.

Soulknife: Tier 6. Your skills aren't great and you get no bonuses to them, and you're terrible at fighting. Perhaps even worse than the samurai who at least has full base attack bonus. Your special class feature sword is actually worse than a Samurai just picking up a real sword and whacking someone around the face with it for a long time, and even then, again, full bab. I think I'd probably rather have a samurai than a soulknife to keep me company - the samurai is also proficient with real armour. The only possible saving grace is that Bladewind allows you to hit many different enemies, which could hypothetically combine with Psychic Strike. You're also able to take some of the highest-level spells off spellcasters if you can work out which ability score they use, spare the move action to use psychic strike, and actually hit them with enough weapon attacks to reduce their ability score below what they need. Realistically you're not going to get much done trying that, but it's a nice idea. You may be able to cheat Multiple Throw into allowing you to throw more bastard swords than you could actually attack with (the idea being that you could make 6 melee attacks, if you TWFed with your UAS, so that's how many mind blades you can throw per round) but even that doesn't really help you any more at level 17. The kicker, though, is that that samurai has a shinier weapon than you out of his WBL.

Spellthief: Tier 3. Your skills are almost as good as the rogue's, and sneak attack isn't too bad either. The ability to steal spells from casters is exceptional, especially as you can steal a spell of the highest level a sorcerer can cast (you can also steal an utterance of the second-highest level a truenamer can utter, but probably can't utter it. Invocations are more likely to be useful). The spells you can personally cast aren't bad either: spells like charm person, color spray, feather fall, protection from arrows, resist energy, see invisibility, invisibility, mirror image, alter self, spider climb, clairaudience/clairvoyance, hold person, suggestion, fly, haste, scrying, charm monster, confusion, illusory wall, greater invisibility and polymorph have hardly become useless by the time you can cast them. Being able to use your sneak attack to surprise attack, then full attack out of hiding with a ranged weapon (if you win initiative) or move then full attack while flanking with a melee weapon (even if you lose initiative) allows you to sneak off a lot of a caster's best spells before they have a chance to use them. The fact that you can also steal a lot of their pre-combat buffs with your Steal Spell Effect ability is even better. Finally, the fact that your spell stealing allows you to gain a lot of out-of-combat abilities while in combat is amazing. If your stolen spells and your own skills can't get you out of a situation, your own spells known probably can. Ultimately a very solid 3.

Unfortunately, epic spellthieves can't steal people's epic spells. That doesn't affect their tier (really), it's just sad.

[flare'90]

Shugenja (CDv): 3. They have a good list but they're gimped by the fact that they can't choose freely from it and the list is hard to expand. They're still good enough to fall into Tier 3 just by spell access alone, but maybe they have enough potential for Tier 2.

Sorcerer: 2. They have access to a great spell list and even get some exclusive goodies (wings of cover, arcane fusion, kobold rituals). As with a wizard, a sorcerer can do anything; differently, they must choose and they can't easily change their specialization overnight. Tier 2 is right for them, almost tailor-made.

Soulborn (MoI): 5. The Incarnum paladin, with most of the drawbacks and a lot less support. Limited and late in their access to their main class feature, soulmelds, they struggle the most at low level and become a lot better at higher ones, when they can finally get some features out. I'd still put them in Tier 5, since they come out very slowly compared to most other classes.

Soulknife (XPH): 5. A half warrior half skillmonkey (with a lightsaber) that can't sadly do either work. The fact that a psywar can replicate thei main class feature with an ACF and a power and still reatin better utility really makes them sad. Tier 5 mostly on the lack of focus in their class features.

Spellcaster (UA): 2. A sorcerer/favored soul/spirit shaman analogue, it shares the weaknesses and the strenghts of those classes. Can get native access to turn undead for divine/devotion feats purposes. All considered the class falls into Tier 2 with other spontaneous casters.

Spellthief (CAd) : 4,3. A rogue that trades a bit of sneak attack for spells and the ability to steal spells. Quite effective in his role, but like the rogue it doesn't work as well against enemies immune to sneak attack. Also gets a bit sad without enemies with spell-likes or friendly casters willing to share spells.

[Troacctid]

Shugenja: 32
Their list is small and lacks many premium spells, their spell selection is limited, they're further restricted by element, and they have a dearth of other class features besides casting. Between all that, they come out worse than the T2 classes overall. Sure, at low optimization levels they're not much different than a Sorcerer, but the class is definitely weaker.

Sorcerer: 2
Benchmark for the tier. A very powerful class, but also clearly weaker than T1 classes.

Soulborn: 5
Bad class is bad.

Soulknife: 5
A strong contender for worst base class in the game. Still better than NPC classes.

Spellcaster: 12
This is a legit good class. I know people see spontaneous casting and automatically think 2, but even with the delayed progression and limited spells known, you have the Sorcerer/Wizard list and the Cleric and Druid lists, and the bonus feats are very real. On top of it all, you get to customize your chassis with any primary casting stat, class, skills, and good save, and you can have your pick of arcane or divine casting. This is probably a controversial rating, but I think the class really is that good. I always say the real problem with the Sorcerer isn't that spontaneous casting off a limited list is inherently worse than prepared casting off a large list, it's that the Sorcerer class has been whacked too many times with the nerf-bat to the point where it's just blatantly worse than a Wizard. But the Spellcaster has not been whacked with the nerf-bat—okay, maybe it got whacked once to delay its progression by a level—and so I'm putting my mouth where my mouth is and placing it in T1.

Spellthief: 4
Didn't we already do Rogue like three or four times? I thought we weren't doing re-votes?

Trickster Spellthief: 3
We already did Bard too. I swear I'm getting deja vu right now.

[Jormengand]

So, can we talk about the ratings of the soulknife and the spellthief?

I don't see that the soulknife does anything that even remotely contends with what T5 classes such as the fighter, magewright and knight can do. Its skill list is awful, and it has no real fighting ability. It can't even equip real armour, and unlike the monk, doesn't get a wis-to-FFTAC bonus (or other ways to protect oneself, like all-high saves an evasion) either. A soulknife who defeats a monk in combat does so in spite of his mind blade, not because of it, and the monk is about as proficient with skills as the soulknife. The soulknife is pretty much never making any real contribution to the party.

On the flipside, I don't see the spellthief as being as bad as T4. Given the relatively good spell selection (for a 4-level caster, at least) and the ability to take out spellcasters in medium practical optimisation without much of a hassle, as well as doing basic rogue-y things, it seems like it should score higher than rogue. You're not going to just forget that you have those spells, and bearing in mind that even a low-level sorcerer (one of about half your level, in fact) is exceptionally useful, you should be too. Being able to cast low-level divinations should on its own be enough to make you relevant in practically any situation. I can't see why it would be lower than T3.

[Troacctid]

Sure.

Soulknife is T5 cuz it has enough class features to be better than NPC classes. It sucks compared to real classes, but it's still significantly better than the Warrior or Aristocrat.

Spellthief (non-Trickster) is T4 because it's basically just Rogue with some balanced tradeoffs. It comes with a weak spellcasting progression in exchange for nerfing itself in its primary role. What you gain isn't noticeably better than what you're giving up; it's mostly a lateral move, which means no change in tier. There are exceptions if your party contains certain synergies (Spellthief + Warlock = Combo), but mostly, it's just Rogue.

[Jormengand]

I don't see that the soulknife is actually that much better than the warrior, if at all. The warrior at least has a chance to hit whatever he's swinging at.

I also don't see that going from more sneak attack to flight, scrying, and polymorphing is really a lateral trade. The two skill points are nice, but being a human isn't really worth a change in tier (given that you can spend one of your feats, such as the human bonus feat, on an extra skill point per level) either. Also, the fact that you'll probably be fighting at least one spellcaster per day, and the ability to take whatever spells that caster has prepared/known and use them as your own can be incredibly useful, especially if you can nab the likes of overland flight or PAO which will last you a while. What situations are there that a spellthief can't contribute to on their own, fairly mahusive spell list anyway? Yes, I know you're not able to access the whole thing; neither's a sorcerer. But being able to contribute well at your own thing (fighting spellcasters, doing roguey things) and adequately at anything else is pretty much definitively T3.

[Troacctid]

That's a pretty optimistic view of the Spellthief. In practice, Steal Spell is a crapshoot when it works and does nothing the rest of the time, and your spellcasting is anemic—not that much better than a Monk's—with its primary function most of the time being to save you some money on wands and/or skill ranks on UMD. See also Savant, Ninja.

Soulknife gets bonus feats and more skill points than a Warrior. It's more comparable to the Swashbuckler if anything.

[Bucky]

You might scoff at Psychic Strike's action economy, but it comes precharged each encounter. In the level 3-7 range it makes a good pseudo-full-attack, doing DPR comparable to the warriors' secondary attack.

The soulknife's weapon focus bonus feats mostly make up for the missing BAB until about level 13.

The Hidden Talent ACF (Mind's Eye) doesn't singlehandedly save the class, but it is a significant boost.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't see that the soulknife is actually that much better than the warrior, if at all. The warrior at least has a chance to hit whatever he's swinging at.
Medium BAB isn't that bad, and you get an extra +1-2 from bonus Weapon Focus anyway. Light armor isn't great but it's a damn sight better than the Monk, and you can overspend on defensive items because you don't need a fancy magic sword.


I also don't see that going from more sneak attack to flight, scrying, and polymorphing is really a lateral trade. The two skill points are nice, but being a human isn't really worth a change in tier (given that you can spend one of your feats, such as the human bonus feat, on an extra skill point per level) either. Also, the fact that you'll probably be fighting at least one spellcaster per day, and the ability to take whatever spells that caster has prepared/known and use them as your own can be incredibly useful, especially if you can nab the likes of overland flight or PAO which will last you a while. What situations are there that a spellthief can't contribute to on their own, fairly mahusive spell list anyway? Yes, I know you're not able to access the whole thing; neither's a sorcerer. But being able to contribute well at your own thing (fighting spellcasters, doing roguey things) and adequately at anything else is pretty much definitively T3.
My biggest concerns are that your big thing (fighting spellcasters) is more niche than most-- I definitely don't think that you can rely on fighting prepared casters that often, if only because of how much more work a spellcaster baddie is for the DM. Meanwhile, you've got a good list but painfully few spells per day for most of your career.

[MisterKaws]

My biggest concerns are that your big thing (fighting spellcasters) is more niche than most-- I definitely don't think that you can rely on fighting prepared casters...

They're just as effective against Spontaneous casters, if not more, since they often have less known spells than spell slots.

But I digress.


...that often, if only because of how much more work a spellcaster baddie is for the DM. Meanwhile, you've got a good list but painfully few spells per day for most of your career.

Any optimized game is going to eventually boil down to Wizard BBEGs, and any unoptimized game is going to be easy enough for a caster/skillmonkey hybrid, who can do a bit of nearly everything. That's the main reason I think it is a T3: In any game where tiers actually matter, it has the characteristics of a T3; when that's not the case, it works as a T4, but that doesn't really matter, because that's a game made specifically so that unoptimized characters can shine, which means that it is always decently effective in any sort of game. As a result of this, it defaults to T3.

[Lans]

Spell Thieves have value in letting you leverage the parties magical resources. IIRC he can steal a spell like ability that would be 1/day multiple times a day too.

[Gemini476]

That's cool and all, but how does that actually cause you to win? It's a really big AoE that creates a bunch of effects that screw with people's abilities, but it doesn't do anything to kill your enemies as far as I can tell.
At the earliest level you can get it, it's still a two-mile radius that lasts for eight days. And a DC27ish Will save to avoid moving in a random direction each turn. And a -10 to Spot and Search, just to rub it in.
It's basically a slow-acting Locate City Bomb if you want to use it that way, and is kind of game-breaking in a way that's only really negated by it being horrible for using in a party. Want to trap an invading army or annoying city or whatever to slowly starve to death within a nigh-inescapable field of darkness? Sure, why not.

Oh, and you can recast it tomorrow if you want. Maybe somewhere else. If you really want to lay it on thick you can just waste a bunch of slots on it and cast it four times a day to cover forty 2-mile-radius circles in permanent-until-you-get-bored Black Labyrinths.

Really, you don't even need to trap people within it - you can lay a nation to waste simply by traveling to chokepoints in trade routes and filling them with big impassible blobs.

Note, though, that while this is all very impressive it's also not too relevant to your typical heroic PC. Unless you're getting invaded by an army or something, I guess. It's a very impressive spell for BBEGs or solo play or, well, campaigns that differ a bit from the typical dungeoncrawler.

It's a weird class, really.

I'll be honest: the only reason I was pushing for Tier 2 was because I didn't think it would get it but still felt like it was a legitimate option. Because there's some game-breaking stuff in there, if you try. They can still take narrative control through transportation and mind control.


Those aren't bad, but they're 1/day, right? That's just not enough to compete at high levels. Also, you seriously suck at low levels. At 1st level, your best offensive option looks to be "create an area of difficult terrain". That's really bad.
1/day at 17th level, up to 4/day at 18th but probably more likely just 1/day with a separate 9th-level spell also being 1/day.

You go from having one spell/day at level 1 to 6/day at level 6 to 13/day at level 7, yes - the early levels are really bad for it. The "area of difficult terrain" is one 5ft square/level, by the way, so not something you want at level 1. It's an alright Path, though, so maybe level 2? I'd grab a more utility mystery, personally.

You're probably better off using your 3/day Darkness or 3/day 2d4 nonlethal ranged touch attack, both of which aren't great but are probably better than a single square of difficult (or hyper-difficult, since it stacks) terrain.

Shadowcasters absolutely suck at low levels to a somewhat astonishing degree, don't get me wrong, but give 'em credit where it's due - Carpet of Shadows isn't the best offensive spell at level 1, that's the cantrip-equivalents. It does get pretty interesting at higher levels, though, since you can freely shape it and it can potentially make 5ft take 20ft to move through. Come level two and you can slow down a corridor, level three and you can stop chargers dead.


Shadowcasters only actually get worth playing at level 7, which is far enough into the class's lifespan that... well, they're not actually worth playing. You're better off starting as a Wizard and then swapping your levels over to Shadowcaster one-by-one, if you actually want to play one.

And there's the rub: when you have a class that strictly adheres to the old "start a scrub, end a god" mold of Wizards, with less power on either end of the spectrum, where on earth are you supposed to put them in a tier system? It's the Truenamer problem, except instead of changing tiers with optimization it changes tiers by leveling up. Maybe.

[Jormengand]

Medium BAB isn't that bad, and you get an extra +1-2 from bonus Weapon Focus anyway. Light armor isn't great but it's a damn sight better than the Monk, and you can overspend on defensive items because you don't need a fancy magic sword.
Still, a warrior still has more attack because of BAB and more damage because he's using a greatsword than the soulknife does from weapon focus and the psychic strike which basically only works 1/combat unless you really want to give up your full attack for it (which says a lot about your damage output anyway).



My biggest concerns are that your big thing (fighting spellcasters) is more niche than most-- I definitely don't think that you can rely on fighting prepared casters that often, if only because of how much more work a spellcaster baddie is for the DM. Meanwhile, you've got a good list but painfully few spells per day for most of your career.

It works on any kind of spellcaster, manifester (with steal SLA), invoker (with steal SLA), and a few others. Also, just the few spells per day you have naturally are exceptionally useful.

[noce]

Jorg I changed my vote for Soulknife before the voting week ends.
It is legal, right?

[Lans]

Still, a warrior still has more attack because of BAB and more damage because he's using a greatsword than the soulknife does from weapon focus and the psychic strike which basically only works 1/combat unless you really want to give up your full attack for it (which says a lot about your damage output anyway).


You might want to go over the numbers of an attack from warrior vs an attack from soulknife. I think if the soulknife is comparable its probably a higher tier than the warrior due to more skills, a bit of ranged flexibility, and knife the soul. Monk might be a better class to compare it too, or maybe an expert.

An interesting thing with the soulknife is that it can abuse the lucky enhancement for a reroll every round

I changed my shugenja vote to tier 3

[Cosi]

Oh, I almost forgot. Now that we're actually allowed to talk about the Sorcerer, could we see a Sorcerer list that manages to beat out the Beguiler at overall utility?

[Lans]

At 7th level with both using default array, +2 strength item, +1 weapon it looks like the soulknife does more damage than a warrior's full attack on ACs 18+. With both being changed to orcs with an 22 strength the soulknife does more at ACs 24 and over.

[Jormengand]

Jorg I changed my vote for Soulknife before the voting week ends.
It is legal, right?

Yes, that's entirely okay. It is in fact the point of the voting lasting the week.


I think if the soulknife is comparable its probably a higher tier than the warrior due to more skills, a bit of ranged flexibility, and knife the soul.

Your skill list is godawful, a warrior with a longbow is better at ranged than you (remember that you cannot full attack at ranged until the wizard has ninth-level spells), and knife to the soul not only comes on so late that it's barely worth mentioning, but by that point is unlikely actually to take a caster's highest-level spells from them even if you can hit one.


At 7th level with both using default array, +2 strength item, +1 weapon it looks like the soulknife does more damage than a warrior's full attack on ACs 18+. With both being changed to orcs with an 22 strength the soulknife does more at ACs 24 and over.

See, that's not that impressive. Given that CR 7 encounters include the Animated Object Gargantuan (12), Aboleth (16), Bulette (22), Chaos Beast (16), Chimera (19), Chuul (22), Demon Succubus (20), Devil Bezekira (21), Dinosaur Elasmosaurus (13), Dire Bear (17), Dragon Juvenile Black (22) and Young Red (21) and Young Bronze (21) and Young Copper (20) and Very Young Gold (19), Dragonne (18), Drider (17)... look, I can't be bothered to go past D, but there just aren't any monsters so far where the orc would rather be a soulknife. The average AC, ignoring the notoriously under-CR'ed true dragons, is under 18. The warrior is simply better at his job than the soulknife, and not getting hit because you're wearing real armour never quite goes out of fashion either.

[noce]

The warrior is simply better at his job than the soulknife, and not getting hit because you're wearing real armour never quite goes out of fashion either.

I'd add that, even if Soulknife would be slightly better than warrior, then you're slightly better than T6, and this usually still means T6.
T5 has something special, something more than just "more damage".
Dragon Shaman is T5, and Soulknife is nowhere near Dragon Shaman.

[Lans]

Your skill list is godawful, :smallconfused: You get autohypnosis, spot, listen, move silently, tumble and hide.


a warrior with a longbow is better at ranged than you (remember that you cannot full attack at ranged until the wizard has ninth-level spells), It depends on the circumstance, if the character walks into a room with a sword drawn and discovers that he needs a bow, the warrior has to drop his sword and spend an action to draw getting one attack that round. The Soulknife also gets one attack, but it gets a reroll if he misses and a few additional d8s of damage. Then if things change up the warrior has his sword on the ground.


and knife to the soul not only comes on so late that it's barely worth mentioning,

but by that point is unlikely actually to take a caster's highest-level spells from them even if you can hit one.

I don't know why you would use this on a spell casters casting stat. Its more of a t-rex, hydra, collosal spider, orc barbarian thing


See, that's not that impressive. Given that CR 7 encounters include the Animated Object Gargantuan (12), Aboleth (16), Bulette (22), Chaos Beast (16), Chimera (19), Chuul (22), Demon Succubus (20), Devil Bezekira (21), Dinosaur Elasmosaurus (13), Dire Bear (17), Dragon Juvenile Black (22) and Young Red (21) and Young Bronze (21) and Young Copper (20) and Very Young Gold (19), Dragonne (18), Drider (17)... look, I can't be bothered to go past D, but there just aren't any monsters so far where the orc would rather be a soulknife. The average AC, ignoring the notoriously under-CR'ed true dragons, is under 18. The warrior is simply better at his job than the soulknife, and not getting hit because you're wearing real armour never quite goes out of fashion either.



Soulknife does more in the first round of combat, and has tumble to manuever away from the fight, and does more vs higher CR opponents?

If they both go S&B The soulknife does more vs ACs of 16+ if they are both max strength orcs,

If they use default array the soulknife does more vs ACs of 11+

[Grod_The_Giant]

:smallconfused: You get autohypnosis, spot, listen, move silently, tumble and hide.
And 4+Int skill points to the Warrior's 2.

Not sure how he does more damage against HIGH-AC foes than the full-BAB class, mind.

Also, the fact that he gets a free weapon can't be disregarded. I mean, by 10th level that's worth 32,000 gold-- you're practically getting double WBL. (Or more practically, I suppose, it's probably 18,300-odd gold you're free to spend somewhere else). I know I'd usually argue that WBL-mancy shouldn't be a part of tiering, but the extra room granted by your class features here IS worthy of note.

And he gets excellent ACFs, for whatever that's worth. Hidden Power plus trading the crappy Psychic Strike for five exceptionally vaguely-defined bonus feats is a heck of a thing...

None of this is to argue that it's a good class! It's not; it's certainly on par with things like the Monk in terms of "not doing its job very well" and "needs external optimization. But it's not T6.

[Karl Aegis]

4+int skills, a decent skill list, real armor and weapons, and 3/4 BAB gets you to... Tier 6.

Sorry, looks like you're hanging out with the Aristocrat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

4+int skills, a decent skill list, real armor and weapons, and 3/4 BAB gets you to... Tier 6.

Sorry, looks like you're hanging out with the Aristocrat.
Compared to which the Soulknife has more HP, Weapon Focus (it ain't nothing), Whirlwind Attack, access to excellent psionic feats, non-hp-damage and a bunch more wealth to play with.

[Jormengand]

4+int skills, a decent skill list, real armor and weapons, and 3/4 BAB gets you to... Tier 6.

Sorry, looks like you're hanging out with the Aristocrat.

Or rather, you probably aren't, because voting is closed for this round and most people voted T5.

But anyway, next up are the:

Psychic Rogue (Web)
Spirit Shaman (CDv)
Swashbuckler (CWr)
Swordsage (ToB)
Totemist (MoI)
Truenamer (ToM)

(The psychic rogue is out of the normal order because of a mistake. Sorry about that)

I forsee this being a fun and interactive round where we talk about the truenamer like sensible people rather than relying on the meme where it's totally T6. :smalltongue:

Just for fun, I'll be filing my votes right away:

Psychic Rogue: 3. Insert all the usual arguments about rogues, minus small amounts of sneak attack, plus magic or psionics, here.

Spirit Shaman: 12. The small number of spells retrieved per day is a kicker, but you're still casting off an excellent list in what is a prepared enough manner to make you T1.

Swashbuckler: 56. You're basically a fighter who spent all their bonus feats on complete rubbish. I'm not even sure that you reach tier 5, but acrobatic charge is a legitimately good class feature and you have real full base attack bonus.

Swordsage: 34. You're good at fighting things, and your manuevers give you rea options out of combat. Not great ones, but real ones. 6+int skills doesn't hurt.

Totemist: ?. Not familiar, sorry.

Truenamer: X324. Hoo boy.

So, let's go through this: with any proficiency in truenamer you should be unable to fail truespeak checks, LoR notwithstanding, from level 2. This is easy mode. You then have access to a few of the same kinds of things as a cleric or wizard at about the same time: healing and damage at level 1, walking on walls, silencing enemies and protection from arrows at level 3, flight, haste and slow at level 6, greater dispel magic only, like, better at level, uhm, 10... because suck it, real magic users. Some of the ones you get late include invisiblity at level 6 and granting new saves or curing ability damage at level 10, while true seeing comes online at a comparatively respectable level 14, just after the druid's got a hold of it.

You also get an utterance which can deal 40d6*1.5 points of damage - of an energy type of your choice - over 10 rounds at about level 6 because again, suck it real magic users. That alone catapults you into T4 on the basis that it's a no-save-just die ability, and things like flight and the ability to get +15 to any knowledge skill or bluff, +5+level/3 on any craft skill, disable device, forgery, open lock or sleight of hand, or +5 to any other skill never go out of fashion either (and are available by level 4, 3 and 1 respectively) and are definitely T3 material. I'd believe that all the nonsense the truenamer grants you makes it T2 before I'd believe any lower than 3, and the tier 6 truenamer meme is right out.

[Karl Aegis]

Psychic Rogue is a web enhancement... but we aren't using web enhancements. I feel like we're making a specific exception to the general rule for this specific class?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know you're the Truenamer's biggest proponent, Jormengand, but I'm PRETTY sure you're talking from a very high-op perspective on this one. I know I've looked at the Truenamer and I haven't gotten anywhere near those numbers... Or that kind of power. Given that you're arguing so far against consensus (I'd probably say T5 on account of "you have to fight the class to make it work," and "even when you do your tricks are mediocre and late"), I think the onus is on you to provide more justification than just a list of things you can do with sufficient cheese.

[etrpgb]

Shugenja, Tier 3.

By RAW a Shugenja cannot learn spells of the opposite element, but can still cast them via scrolls, wands, or order spells. If you allow the RAW interpretation, so for example a Water Shugenja of the Order of the Consuming Flame can actually cast the Order spells I'd say Tier 3. Because unlike Tier 2 caster he cannot get the most broken spells for every level.

With restrictive reading, still barely Tier 3 but only assuming reasonable element/order combination, definitely Tier 4 for suboptimal combinations. If one adds all the spells of the Compendium with an elemental subtype to the list then I'd go solid Tier 3.


Sorceror, Tier 2.

It comes from the definition of Wizard but with limited spell selection.

[Lans]

And 4+Int skill points to the Warrior's 2.

Not sure how he does more damage against HIGH-AC foes than the full-BAB class, mind.


Psychic strike damage+abusing the lucky enhancement by creating a new sword every round.

Edit- The damage may shift back towards the warrior as AC goes up I didn't check past 25

[Cosi]

The Truenamer is trash tier. It's in the running with luminaries like the Monk and the CWar Samurai for the title of Worst PC Class.

To start, you have a horrifying failure rate. With max ranks and 18 INT, you have a 55% success rate at first level. That sounds good, but that's the rate for getting to use your abilities at all, and its worse than a Wizard walking around in full plate. You see a lot of Wizards in full plate? What's worse, the DCs scale at a rate of twice level, while your check scales at a rate of level. Every level, your chances of success get worse, until you straight up can't use your abilities against level appropriate enemies (without items or feats) at 14th level (DC for a CR 13 enemy is 43, check is +21 because you bumped your INT).

Now, let's back up a level to consider what another class can do if it can consistently make DC 43 skill checks at 14th level: the Expert. At that point, the Expert can take UMD, buy a Staff of holy word, and emulate a caster level of 23 when activating it. That instantly kills anything with 13 or less HD, and its the skill check required to use your abilities once per day at 14th level. If you want to use your utterances five times per day, the Expert is killing anything with 23 or less HD. Alternatively, it's a DC 50 check to turn someone from Hostile to Helpful.

So what do utterances actually do? Short answer: they suck. Long answer: your best offensive option tends to be a DoT (DoTs are bad because fights end quickly and PCs are expected to win), there are some badly written abilities that might do cool things if your DM rules favorably. Your best option is to break the game with gate at 20th, but people could already buy Candles of Invocation for gold.

Basically, you're looking at having to spend GP and probably a feat or two to be a worse Warlock, and Warlocks suck. If you want to put the Truenamer in Tier Three, you should be comparing it to a Dread Necromancer with Arcane Disciple and an Eternal Wand of magic circle against good. That comparison does not look good for the Truenamer.

On a big picture level, you can't make skill based magic work in a level system. Either skill checks are tightly coupled to level and it's pointless, or skill checks aren't tightly coupled to level and its pointless. The Truenamer actually manages to get the worst of both worlds. You have to do a bunch of work to get skill checks good enough to matter, but once you do the skill check is entirely external to the process.

[Jormengand]

Psychic Rogue is a web enhancement... but we aren't using web enhancements.

Aren't we? We aren't using web enhancements which are variants of a pre-existing class, certainly; if I said anything to that effect that's probably what I meant.


I know you're the Truenamer's biggest proponent, Jormengand, but I'm PRETTY sure you're talking from a very high-op perspective on this one. I know I've looked at the Truenamer and I haven't gotten anywhere near those numbers... Or that kind of power. Given that you're arguing so far against consensus (I'd probably say T5 on account of "you have to fight the class to make it work," and "even when you do your tricks are mediocre and late"), I think the onus is on you to provide more justification than just a list of things you can do with sufficient cheese.

I did vote X first on account of the fact that people who don't know how to play truenamers are able to make it T5 by doing things like not taking Skill Focus: Truespeak, not taking illumian or even a race with +int, not taking the magic items that are available IN THE SAME BOOK which buff your truespeak check, not taking mortalbane or any of the other options which boost SLAs, not taking the utterances which are as good as wizard spells that are available at the same time, and so forth. But a competently-played truenamer is easily, easily T3.

Let's take the first-level universal aptitude as one of the pieces of the puzzle: it's a +5 to all skill checks. This immediately means that you are better at any skill check that you can actually roll than a first-level rogue or expert is. That is, apart from some skills like disable device which can't be used untrained, you are better at them than you should be for your level. The recitation of the mindful state adds a third of your truenamer level to a few skills, and hidden truth to a few more (including every knowledge) as previously discussed. That's already not bad! You're rocking a hell of a lot of skills and you're only even using two of the five utterances you know by level 4. A lot of the utterances you get end up like mediocre but still decent versions of wizard spells (I'm afraid you have to choose which one of "Seek the sky will run out before the combat ends" and "The combat will end before reversed energy negation ends" you believe, because they have the same duration and a truenamer - with invisibility and flight - chooses how long he wants the combat to last, not the rogue, fighter or monk who are desperately trying to peck through his protection from arrows.

Like, have you actually played a truenamer? Between the ability to make practically any skill check you need to, blaze through any combat and let's not forget, fly, turn invisible, and dispel anything you like without having to make a roll except for the truespeak check that you can't fail, they're making anything T4 cry tears (or tiers) of inadequacy whenever they're played remotely well.

In order to make a truenamer work, you need a 10,000 GP magic item and a 50 GP knick-knack, and you probably want to be the race whose entire defining feature is that they know words, they have the best words. You might want some +int boosts too, just like the wizard uses, but that's not entirely surprising and you don't really need them. You also need to take feats which range from the blindingly obvious skill focus to the metautterances which exist in the same book and the recitation which you actually get as a bonus feat, just because the designers wanted to make damn sure that you took it. If you want to go the whole hog, you take a feat that says it boosts SLAs and might be a good idea on a character who uses nothing but SLAs, duh, and an item/feat/whateverthehellitis that says it boosts skill checks, so guess what character might want that... Oh, and if your truenamer wants to go down the "UMD AND PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS LOL NICE MEME" route, that's fine, because there's an utterance that allows you to snap the wand over your knee, remake it, and suddenly it's back in its original state, ie the state that it would be in when created. (In fact, if it really is possible to buy partially charged wands, there's no reason you can't buy 1-charge wands, blast away the last charge, snap the wand, rebuild it, and sell the fully-charged wand for 25 times as much, but breaking WBL is old news even for you by the time you do this). Basically, if you're spending gold per fight to keep up with a truenamer who paid less than the fighter did for his shiny sword or the wizard did for his int +4 item.

I agree, if you don't do basic optimisation, then the truenamer falls to tier 5, along with "Sorcerer who took nothing but awful spells" and "Paladin who didn't take any of the feats which turn you into a real spellcaster." But the optimisation here is the same as I'd do for any character: I find the useful feats that work on the character (I can't believe that people believe readily that paladins have SotAO (quick, without looking, which spell is this deity-specific, organisation-specific feat from?) and Battle Blessing (and can you remember where this is from? It's not as obscure by a long shot, but it's not exactly core) but not that truenamers have skill focus bloody truespeak, come on GitP, get your wits together), I optimise the class's thing that that class does, I take the right spells/powers/maneuvers/invocations/utterances/soulmelds/infusions/bombs/talents/whatthehellever... is this not normal optimisation for any other class? I understand that because so few people play truenamer, they might not know how to optimise it, but is "I search for a few useful feats, I take magic items from the book the class appears in, and I take the right utterances" really too much for it? If you look at the only guide to the truenamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers) of which I'm aware, it flat out recommends all of these abilities; they're not obscure to those who've actually ever played the class. Like, these were options I took the first time I played the class.

If the truenamer can do well at its thing and contribute meaningfully in all or most other situations, it's T3. Is there some situation where it can't contribute meaningfully, in a level-appropriate manner? If we take some relatively-undisputed T3 such as the bard (I'm pretty sure that there were only a couple if any who voted for anything but T3), is there anything that the bard can do a lot better than the truenamer, which isn't the bard's "Thing" (such as talking to people and buffing the party, which the truenamer can do both of just about)?

Like, people say "The truenamer is T5/T6" without any justification beyond the tired old "You have a chance to fail your utterances if you do no optimisation at all!" (you also have a chance to miss your attack rolls or for enemies to make saves - which truenamer utterances, even the debuffs, don't tend to allow) and "Existing as a truenamer is like a wizard wearing full plate!" (No, refusing to take skill focus and a masterwork tool because REAL MEN DON'T USE ITEMS (except for experts with partially-charged staves) is like a wizard wearing full plate: it's deliberately increasing the - already existent in both cases - chance that your ability will mess up) "The law of resistance tho!" ("Spell slots tho!") and other stuff that's been debunked time and time again by people like me, Zaq (who amusingly enough takes it as read that you can automatically succeed on your truespeak check with the +20 to DC from quickening it) and Troacctid who've actually played the thrice-damned class we're talking about, whereas to prove that it's T3 I have to go on these massive rants because of a stupid meme made by people who probably don't own a tome of magic about how terrible it is. If you want to show that it's T5, which it obviously, saliently, unrelentingly isn't, then how about you prove it for a change?

[Troacctid]

Heck, I haven't even played it and I know the "Truespeak checks are too hard!" argument is BS. I mean, come on. Read the class, and then do some basic math. It's not that hard. Yes, you have to roll a d20 for your thing to work. Welcome to D&D.

[Beheld]

Like, people say "The truenamer is T5/T6" without any justification beyond the tired old "You have a chance to fail your utterances if you do no optimisation at all!"

...

So now people making completely unjustifed votes is a bug? It was a feature when we were doing Beguilers though?

Now, the basic "of course everyone does this" involves picking the best spells, the best race, and reading a guide? That wasn't this system used for other classes... hmmm.....

Maybe people who spend a lot of time thinking about/playing/optimizing a class have a different view about what the "standard" optimization for that class is that skews their perspective.


If you want to show that it's T5, which it obviously, saliently, unrelentingly isn't, then how about you prove it for a change?

Remember when you did an exhaustive analysis proving Beguiler wasn't T2. Pepperidge Farm doesn't remember, because it never happened.

But no way you are taking this personally or anything.

[Karl Aegis]

18 Int = +4 mod
DC for CR 1 enemy = 17
55% chance of success = 10+
17-4-10 = 3

You mean to tell me we have only 3 maximum ranks in Truespeak at level 1?

Make an actually useful build and you'll have an 85% chance of hitting yourself with an utterance that makes you auto-succeed on utterances for a minute. 20 int, 4 ranks, skill focus, personal truename = +14 for the check. DC 17. 3+ roll. Cosi has no idea what they are talking about.

[Jormengand]

Heck, I haven't even played it and I know the "Truespeak checks are too hard!" argument is BS. I mean, come on. Read the class, and then do some basic math. It's not that hard. Yes, you have to roll a d20 for your thing to work. Welcome to D&D.

Jeez, I thought you had. I just assumed, since you actually knew things about it.


...

So now people making completely unjustifed votes is a bug? It was a feature when we were doing Beguilers though?

You'll notice that this is the week for voting on the truenamer, and no-one's calling for a re-vote. I'm also not calling a revote on the soulknife or spellthief, even though I think they were mis-tiered.


Now, the basic "of course everyone does this" involves picking the best spells, the best race, and reading a guide? That wasn't this system used for other classes... hmmm.....

Notice how I said things like "Or even a race with +int" to imply that you don't need to pick the best stuff. And as I pointed out, that WAS the system used for things like paladin.


Maybe people who spend a lot of time thinking about/playing/optimizing a class have a different view about what the "standard" optimization for that class is that skews their perspective.

Or maybe this is the same thing I do for any class I actually play at all.


Remember when you did an exhaustive analysis proving Beguiler wasn't T2. Pepperidge Farm doesn't remember, because it never happened.

Wow, such an original meme. But yeah, it's almost like people other than me were actually talking about why it was T3.


But no way you are taking this personally or anything.

Excuse you. Seriously, you come back to this thread just to talk about beguilers, again, and then accuse me of taking things personally? Extraordinary. Just, wow. Plonk.

[lylsyly]

Psychic Rogue: 3 - Played it, loved it, kinda the reason my DM don't like psionics anymore ;). Yes, you lose out a bit on some of the Rogue class features, but I feel like you get a much more flexible support character in the end. After all, after about level 8 ALL characters are support characters to the Tier 1 full casters ;).

Spirit Shaman: 21 - Sorry Jorm, but the whole spells retrieved thing is what keeps it out of Tier 1 for me, and I actually like the class.

Swashbuckler: 5 - Better than Fighter? Perhaps if you plugged Bonus Feat into the dead levels. Fighter can pretty much duplicate the class with all it's feats.

Swordsage: 45 - Much better than a Fighter at doing the Fighter's job, but Crusader and Warblade are both even better IMHO.

Totemist: PASS - I really don't know how to rate this class. Very flexible, but only if it has advanced knowledge of what it will be facing? I just don't know.

Truenamer: 6/5/4/3/2/1

[Troacctid]

Here is the math for a low-op Truenamer, for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/edit?usp=sharing

[Pleh]

Psychic Rogue (Web): 3,4
According to Psyren's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook) (which I'll take as sufficiently authoritative for me), the Psychic Rogue was basically a precursor to the Lurk. Main differences being a little weaker at Manifesting than the Lurk, but getting a little bit more of the Rogue in return. Looks like a solid class to play, even if it still probably would have trouble keeping up with the full casters.

Spirit Shaman (CDv): 2
A spontaneous casting druid with a focus on ghosts? Sounds pretty solid to me, though it looks like they don't have very many spell slots. Being able to Retrieve new spells regularly is a huge plus. Dunno why they didn't try harder to build the Sorcerer that way, though I can understand if the Sorerer/Wizard list is a little better than the Druid list. Spirit Guide is definitely worth mentioning, but I'm not sure if the class really makes it into the T1 range.

But I've never played one. Maybe I'm wrong.

Swashbuckler (CWr): 4,5,3
Great flavor! Got some nice low level abilities, but like the Monk, peters off pretty quick. It's abilities are nice, but just don't scale very well. Makes it a great dippin' class, but not advisable to build straight through all its levels.

Swordsage (ToB): 3,4
The Maneuvering Monk! Well, a good deal more than that, but that's mostly what it's known for. You don't have to play it that way at all. Really good way to build a combat ready support role character. You'll have enough beef to your combat to pull your weight (if not possibly being a back up frontliner) plus enough skills to be a decent utility (if not possibly the party's skill monkey).

Still not keeping up with the T1 Joneses, though.

Totemist (MoI): 3,4,2
The Incarnum Variant Druid. I've heard good things about these guys, though I get the sense that while Druids get to be good at ANYTHING they want, Totemists are pretty dang good at all the things Druids were only *supposed* to be good at. They can be good face bashers, sneaks, meat shields, party faces, debuffers, battlefield control... it's more about what they aren't quite so good at that makes them a little behind the Druid.

Among these niches Totemists aren't as naturally good with include (but are not limited to): Game Changing, healing, buffing allies, and summoning. Rather big deal niches to be missing, but they look like they can pretty easily be built into most of the common party roles and excel with them.

For me, that puts them at a strong T3, with a possible T2 for a really, really strong Totemist player. I feel like it's maybe slightly easier to screw them up with a bad build than to manage to optimize the Totemist to Sorcerer levels.

Truenamer (ToM): X,5,6,4,3 vote amended later
Like most of the classes, I've never played this one, but its reputation is widespread. I remember looking at it in the book and feeling rather turned off by it.

Looked up a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers), and by god what a mess of a class.

I don't doubt that you can jury rig them into functionality, but at this point, it feels like the work of Frankenstein trying to bring a stillborn child back from developing with all its internal organs all out of whack.

"Needs to be optimized to be useful" is a pretty weighty strike against the poor class's tier.

[Jormengand]

"Needs to be optimized to be useful" is a pretty weighty strike against the poor class's tier.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't. As Troacctid helpfully showed, you can still have a decent chance to get off an array of effects which are better than anything most T4 classes can pull off while using optimisation choices that make me cringe with how bad they are.

[Mehangel]

I think that I also agree with Cosi that Truenamer is ****-tier. Do Rogues need to maximize ranks in Stealth and take Skill Focus to use Sneak Attack? No. Do Clerics need to maximize ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and take Skill Focus to use Turn Undead? No. Truenamer on the other hand requires maximum ranks in Truespeak and Skill Focus.

I am not saying that you cannot eventually use Truename magic reliably, but it requires constant optimization or set-up. Similarly one could be a wizard in full-plate, but doing so isn't usually optimal.

[GrayDeath]

Psychic Rogue: 34. Nice one. Expands on the too boring Rogue with Psychicness, as the PW does on the Fighter ...kind of pulls it off better though.

Spirit Shaman: Pass, never played it. Looks good, but only on that I wont vote.


Swashbuckler: 56. Its a bad bad class. Similar to "what would happen if I crossed a Monk with a Rogue without sneak Attack and Skillpts-bad. But doen`t fall to T6 on the merit of a few good features. Usually.

Swordsage: 34. The most flexible of the ToB CLasses. The one I am most on T3 actually, though its a clear T4 if none of the out of Combat M. are chosen. Still, flexible, quite powerful class.

Totemist: 34 Power, versatility, style. Sound like a Bard? Tier it like a Bard. ;)



Truenamer: X635 Given "normal" Levels of Optimization (meaning only reading the Book its in and using stuff only from there and Core, with no Guides) its simply trash to "Barely playable". Nearly unable to actually accomplish what its supposed todo. IF you optimize heavily (or switch the DC Progression to a more reasonable one, in that case its however more akin to T5 than 3 ^^) it becomes a very lo T3 due to the fact that Utterances, while usually (exceptions exist) lacking in the Power department offer a wide variety of effects.
No I myself only played one once, with relatively low OP but Our DM redid the DC scaling, so it was still fun to play. Not a Bomb though, until it gets at Will Gate of course ^^

[Jormengand]

I think that I also agree with Cosi that Truenamer is ****-tier. Do Rogues need to maximize ranks in Stealth and take Skill Focus to use Sneak Attack? No. Do Clerics need to maximize ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and take Skill Focus to use Turn Undead? No. Truenamer on the other hand requires maximum ranks in Truespeak and Skill Focus.

I am not saying that you cannot eventually use Truename magic reliably, but it requires constant optimization or set-up. Similarly one could be a wizard in full-plate, but doing so isn't usually optimal.

Wait, taking ranks in the skill you intend to use is optimisation now? I mean, beyond the technicality that all decisions made by a character are optimisation? It's like saying "Oh, fighter having strength is optimisation". Sorcerers picking decent spells is optimisation. Rogue not sinking all his skill points in useless places is optimisation. Come ON.

I've got a game for the next 4 hours, so let's see how much of a mess this thread is by the time I'm back... :smallsigh:

[Troacctid]

Psychic Rogue: 3
See also Factotum. This is way better than Spellthief.

Spirit Shaman: 21
The problem is that it is substantially worse than T1 classes, to the point where its power level is, I think, closer to the T2s. I was hoping to hear eggynack's thoughts on this one, but I guess he left the thread so eh.

Swashbuckler: 5
A strong contender for worst PC class in the game.

Swordsage: 3
Totemist: 3
Both very solid combat classes with decent magic.

Truenamer: 45X3
I think T4 is the best place for Truenamer. Yeah, yeah, varies with optimization, sure, but given that it doesn't actually really vary by more than a tier, I disagree with the X rating people are giving it. I do think the class is not very good, mostly because it has a fairly weak spell list, although there are enough good ones for it to be better than T5s.


Swashbuckler: 56. You're basically a fighter who spent all their bonus feats on complete rubbish. I'm not even sure that you reach tier 5, but acrobatic charge is a legitimately good class feature and you have real full base attack bonus.
Acrobatic Charge does almost nothing? Jumping and tumbling can already be used as part of a charge, which makes it mostly useless. Charging through teammates, okay, but anyone can get that with a teamwork benefit without investing a bunch of levels into a 💩💩💩💩 class like Swashbuckler.

[Cosi]

I did vote X first on account of the fact that people who don't know how to play truenamers are able to make it T5 by doing things like not taking Skill Focus: Truespeak, not taking illumian or even a race with +int, not taking the magic items that are available IN THE SAME BOOK which buff your truespeak check, not taking mortalbane or any of the other options which boost SLAs, not taking the utterances which are as good as wizard spells that are available at the same time, and so forth. But a competently-played truenamer is easily, easily T3.

So to be clear, Truenamers are Tier Three because you can optimize them up to Tier Three, but Beguilers are Tier Three because you have to optimize to get them into Tier Two?

Oh hey, it's almost like this is doing the exact same thing JaronK did where classes you like more get to optimize more and classes you like less get to optimize less.


In order to make a truenamer work, you need a 10,000 GP magic item and a 50 GP knick-knack,

In order to make Beguiler beat the tar out of any Sorcerer ever you need a one level dip (any PrC that grants a domain) and 4,420 GP item (Eternal Wand of substitute domain). Yet the Beguiler is Tier Three. In order to make a Dread Necromancer that gets planar binding to win everything forever, you need a 10,900 GP item (Eternal Wand of magic circle). Yet the Dread Necromancer is Tier Three.

As I recall, you voted those classes for those tiers. So were you wrong then or are you wrong now?


Oh, and if your truenamer wants to go down the "UMD AND PARTIALLY CHARGED WANDS LOL NICE MEME" route, that's fine, because there's an utterance that allows you to snap the wand over your knee, remake it, and suddenly it's back in its original state, ie the state that it would be in when created.

That's not how rebuild item works, unless there's some really stupid errata I missed. If you break a wand with no charges, then cast rebuild item on it, you rebuild it with the magical properties it had before you broke it. Namely, no charges.


except for experts with partially-charged staves

Is UMD not a skill or something? The core flaw of the Truenamer is that to get it to work, you need to make a series of massive skill checks. But we already established that people who can do more useful things with massive skill checks are Tier Five (or was it six?). Again, were you wrong then or are you wrong now?


Heck, I haven't even played it and I know the "Truespeak checks are too hard!" argument is BS. I mean, come on. Read the class, and then do some basic math. It's not that hard. Yes, you have to roll a d20 for your thing to work. Welcome to D&D.

The Wizard doesn't roll a d20 to do his thing. He does his thing, and then maybe it works if he (or sometimes the other guy) makes a d20 roll. Utterances like breath of cleansing require both a d20 roll to use and a save to succeed.

This is exactly like wearing full plate. Do Wizards ever wear full plate? No?


You mean to tell me we have only 3 maximum ranks in Truespeak at level 1?

I made an off by one error. Still less chance of success than a Wizard in full plate (35% spell failure rate), so the overall point is not diminished.


Make an actually useful build and you'll have an 85% chance of hitting yourself with an utterance that makes you auto-succeed on utterances for a minute. 20 int, 4 ranks, skill focus, personal truename = +14 for the check. DC 17. 3+ roll. Cosi has no idea what they are talking about.

Hey you know what the Wizard's chance of successfully casting color spray is at 1st level? Hint: it's more than 85%.

Maybe if utterances were a bunch of no save just win effects, this would be justifiable. But they're not. They're things like "get +1 to AC" or "get +2 on attack rolls". You wouldn't bring a dude whose major contribution to a fight was "give someone +1 to AC" even if they succeeded every time they tried.

Oh, and this is still ignoring the fact that you might want to use utterances more than once per day, and the horrendous scaling. Oh and you only get one utterance at first level. And even if you do two, you'd be looking at spending a round buffing before you actually got to your actions.

In an unsurprising turn of events, the person who thinks shrink item is more powerful than a personal army does not do good analysis.

[Beheld]

Excuse you. Seriously, you come back to this thread just to talk about beguilers, again, and then accuse me of taking things personally? Extraordinary. Just, wow. Plonk.

Bold Emphasis added.

Perhaps you should make the basic attempt to distinguish posters before raging at them? I have not previously posted in this thread, or the version before. I literally just went back and checked because it I was so confused why you were mad at me for "returning" to the thread to talk about beguilers.

[Troacctid]

The Wizard doesn't roll a d20 to do his thing. He does his thing, and then maybe it works if he (or sometimes the other guy) makes a d20 roll. Utterances like breath of cleansing require both a d20 roll to use and a save to succeed.

This is exactly like wearing full plate. Do Wizards ever wear full plate? No?
I mean it clearly isn't, if you understand how utterances work and how arcane spell failure works.

[Cosi]

Truenamer: 32 - As much as I fall into Jorm's and Troaccted's camp on this one I cannot honestly say I see tier 2 out of it.

Then why are you voting 32 instead of 34 or just 3? If you can't see Tier Two, why are you voting in a way that could put it in Tier Two?


Here is the math for a low-op Truenamer, for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17MCVFx-p0qT3fUvRseEes0873CJqnxbbVeQAYS4uYaM/edit?usp=sharing

Okay, so you peak at a 75% success rate for your first daily use of your utterances. Do you not see how absolutely awful that is?

You know how much optimization it takes for an Adept to always succeed at casting a spell? None, because "your abilities do things when you use them" is a thing NPC classes get to take for granted.

Oh and of course you could be getting those numbers as a Diplomancer or UMDer. Then you could also get the abilities or a Paladin or Rogue or something.

[Troacctid]

Okay, so you peak at a 75% success rate for your first daily use of your utterances. Do you not see how absolutely awful that is?

You know how much optimization it takes for an Adept to always succeed at casting a spell? None, because "your abilities do things when you use them" is a thing NPC classes get to take for granted.

Oh and of course you could be getting those numbers as a Diplomancer or UMDer. Then you could also get the abilities or a Paladin or Rogue or something.
No, you must be misreading the chart. You peak at 195%. And that's for a low-op Truenamer spending 25% of her WBL or less.

[Pleh]

Ultimately, though, it doesn't. As Troacctid helpfully showed, you can still have a decent chance to get off an array of effects which are better than anything most T4 classes can pull off while using optimisation choices that make me cringe with how bad they are.

Troacctid posted that while I was composing my votes. Cosi has a point about the success rate looking rather similar to a Wizard in full plate, but I think you've done good work demonstrating that the DC argument is blown out of proportion.

I fully admit I'm not familiar with all the utterances and how effective they actually are. When I compose a thought of how to rank classes by Tier, I imagine a spreadsheet of all possible builds for a class (hoping it is somewhat accurate in its reflection of the permutations) and I try to feel for how many would be effective builds and how many would be less fun to play as.

Reading the Truenamer class description and the handbook I found, odds are looking rather bleak unless I cherry pick from a few select build options. This is a possible symptom of a low tier.

But I would be happy to hear the counter argument. High tier is based on being at least good at your own Shtick, or even by being able to fill any role in the game.

It seems to me that the Truenamer struggles a bit more than other classes to get to be as good at its own game as most other casters. How many different kinds of Truenamers can you reasonably play in a T3 game? How many different roles can a typical truenamer fill in a T3 party/adventure? How strong is their staying power through 20 levels? How well do they perform next to a Wizard in the same party (I know Truenamer actually has special benefit to being a magical support to another caster, I'm asking about them operating separately).

[Cosi]

No, you must be misreading the chart. You peak at 195%. And that's for a low-op Truenamer spending 25% of her WBL or less.

You peak at that for the item utterances. For the offensive utterances, you peak at 75%, unless I'm misreading the Evolving Mind section of that chart. Also, the fact that you are "only" spending 25% of your WBL on "my abilities trigger when I try to use them" is not really impressing me when every other class (well, not the Artificer) gets that for free.

[Beheld]

I really want to know what True Namer Utterances people think are actually good?

Like, aside from a WBL cheese that allegedly doesn't work, what are you doing with your combat actions that justifies your presence as a whole character.

I mean, 75% no save just die would be really good, and would justify further expansion into more numbers (or spending action to buff so you could succeed).

But as I recall from when I made a truenamer, the utterances amounted to "wish you were doing things as good as what a Wizard was doing 4 levles ago."

[Troacctid]

It seems to me that the Truenamer struggles a bit more than other classes to get to be as good at its own game as most other casters. How many different kinds of Truenamers can you reasonably play in a T3 game? How many different roles can a typical truenamer fill in a T3 party/adventure? How strong is their staying power through 20 levels? How well do they perform next to a Wizard in the same party (I know Truenamer actually has special benefit to being a magical support to another caster, I'm asking about them operating separately).
There's pretty much only one Truenamer build with slight variations. The class is not very diverse, owing mainly to its small spell list and its zero prestige class support. Dragonfire Adept is the same way. Still, if that one build is good enough...


You peak at that for the item utterances. For the offensive utterances, you peak at 75%, unless I'm misreading the Evolving Mind section of that chart. Also, the fact that you are "only" spending 25% of your WBL on "my abilities trigger when I try to use them" is not really impressing me when every other class (well, not the Artificer) gets that for free.
Every other class gets ability score enhancers for free? I wish I had known this sooner, I would have saved a lot of money on Cloaks of Charisma and Headbands of Intellect.

Amulet of the Silver Tongue, of course, is comparable in cost to a magic weapon, but maybe in your games weapon-users do not buy those?

[Pleh]

There's pretty much only one Truenamer build with slight variations. The class is not very diverse, owing mainly to its small spell list and its zero prestige class support. Dragonfire Adept is the same way. Still, if that one build is good enough...

Good enough at what, though? Is it a buffer/debuffer? Game changer? Summoner? Skill Utility?

I get that Utterances are basically off brand spellcasting, but Druid spell lists are not the same as Wizard lists and not the same as Clerics lists.

So Truenamers can research people's true names for bonuses and give them a true nickname so they can be summoned by friends. Then what do they do when they get there?

[lylsyly]

Then why are you voting 32 instead of 34 or just 3? If you can't see Tier Two, why are you voting in a way that could put it in Tier Two?

Actually, I typo'd it, But I'll tell you what, I'll edit it to 6/5/4/3/2/1 just to keep you happy.

Bye now.

[Cosi]

It seems to me that the Truenamer struggles a bit more than other classes to get to be as good at its own game as most other casters. How many different kinds of Truenamers can you reasonably play in a T3 game? How many different roles can a typical truenamer fill in a T3 party/adventure? How strong is their staying power through 20 levels? How well do they perform next to a Wizard in the same party (I know Truenamer actually has special benefit to being a magical support to another caster, I'm asking about them operating separately).

I genuinely have no idea.

The class has almost nothing to do in combat even if it magically succeeds on all its checks. You get some debuffs that are very unimpressive (would you like to spend an action to drop one target's caster level by 2 as a 10th level character? I wouldn't, but that's what you're offered when the Beguiler is getting dominate person), some buffs that are similarly unimpressive (you can give someone a 120ft fly speed at 14th level), and a bunch of other stuff that is crappy.

Your big option for actually killing people is the word of nuturing series, which, when reversed, deal about 1d6 damage per two levels a round for one round + concentration. That's technically better than eldritch blast, but not by a whole lot. It's way worse than just turning on sneak attack and making a bunch of attacks. Oh, and you have the Sorcerer problem where you're stuck with low level versions of high level abilities (this is to a degree mitigated by you having almost no abilities to chose from, and therefore not missing much).

The class is of course famous for getting at-will gate at 20th level, but if you can break the game with gate you can do it at 10th level because Candles of Invocation can be bought for gold.


Every other class gets ability score enhancers for free? I wish I had known this sooner, I would have saved a lot of money on Cloaks of Charisma and Headbands of Intellect.

Do a Wizard's spells fail if he doesn't get his headband? No? Then stop pretending these things are equivalent.


Amulet of the Silver Tongue, of course, is comparable in cost to a magic weapon, but maybe in your games weapon-users do not buy those?

Yes. But they don't have a passive 25% - 40% miss chance they have to burn a fourth of their wealth to negate. Also, martials suck a lot.

[Troacctid]

Yes. But they don't have a passive 25% - 40% miss chance they have to burn a fourth of their wealth to negate. Also, martials suck a lot.
Yes they do, it's called an attack roll.

[Cosi]

Yes they do, it's called an attack roll.

You are making it very hard for me to believe that you are arguing in good faith.

Yes, people can make their saves against a Wizard's spells. But the Wizard doesn't have a chance to fail to cast those spells.

Yes, a Fighter's attack roll can miss. But the Fighter doesn't have a build in miss chance (such as the one from concealment):


Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.

It turns out that being different phrases, "miss chance" and "attack roll" refer to different things.

If you want to win this argument, go look up what percentage of Truenamer offensive options offer no save.

Also, if your argument is that the Truenamer is as good as the Fighter, I think its pretty clear the Truenamer sucks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes they do, it's called an attack roll.
But it doesn't get worse the more you use it.

Let's table the DC question for a moment, though. Assuming you cast each Utterance... let's say 4/day, without wasting any actions... What does that get you? Are there enough good effects?

[Mehangel]

Psychic Rogue: 3

Spirit Shaman: 2,1

Swashbuckler: 5,4

Swordsage: 3,4

Totemist: 4,3

Truenamer: 6,5 - If Beguiler is Tier 3 because you have to optimize to get to Tier 2, then Truenamer is Tier 6,5 because you have to optimize to get to Tier 4,3.

[Troacctid]

You are making it very hard for me to believe that you are arguing in good faith.

Yes, people can make their saves against a Wizard's spells. But the Wizard doesn't have a chance to fail to cast those spells.

Yes, a Fighter's attack roll can miss. But the Fighter doesn't have a build in miss chance (such as the one from concealment):

It turns out that being different phrases, "miss chance" and "attack roll" refer to different things.

If you want to win this argument, go look up what percentage of Truenamer offensive options offer no save.

Also, if your argument is that the Truenamer is as good as the Fighter, I think its pretty clear the Truenamer sucks.
It is a chance of missing. Gasp! You'll notice that the Truespeak check also does not fit the definition of a miss chance, so it cuts both ways.

Many utterances don't even have that, either. They either have a low enough DC for you to easily succeed, or they are used out of combat and you can retry as much as you want until you get it.

And I said weapon-user, not Fighter.


But it doesn't get worse the more you use it.

Let's table the DC question for a moment, though. Assuming you cast each Utterance... let's say 4/day, without wasting any actions... What does that get you? Are there enough good effects?
Eh, enough to be as good as a Rogue, Ranger, or Barbarian, but not enough to break T3, IMO. Utterances are not super impressive.

It helps that you're also a secondary skillmonkey (and can help other characters to skillmonkey as well).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh, enough to be as good as a Rogue, Ranger, or Barbarian, but not enough to break T3, IMO. Utterances are not super impressive.

It helps that you're also a secondary skillmonkey (and can help other characters to skillmonkey as well).
Yeah, from everything I've read/observed myself, a Truenamer making their checks fits pretty firmly in the "can contribute to many situations, but never that well" camp. The biggest problem with their utterances (beyond all the math) is that Speak Unto the Masses doesn't come online until bloody 17th level; before then it seems to me that they're decent in boss fights (because they have so many no-save, no-resistance abilities), but struggle tremendously with any encounter featuring multiple foes. ~8th-9th level (when you get Fog From the Void and Quicken Utterance) helps, but still-- you're weirdly mono-focused.

[flare'90]

Psychic Rogue (Web): 34. Loses some sneak attack and skill points (not much really, you cast with Int), but the powers gained in exchange are quite useful and really add versatility to the character. A bit starved for PP though. Still goes to Tier 3 easily.

Spirit Shaman (CDv): 2. A spontaneous caster with a non-fixed list? This is quite odd. The fact that the spirit shaman uses the druid list limits the potential of the class, since most of the buffs you get are a lot more useful when you can share them with you animal companion, which the spirit shaman doesn't get (wild cohort isn't the same, sorry). You also don't get wildshape, so buffing up and smashing face is a less effective. You still have access to one of the best spell lists in the game and that is enough to put you in Tier 2 by itself.

Swashbuckler (CWr): 54. It's, uh, better than a CW Samurai I guess? And the class features don't work at odds like some other class (like the monk)? Yeah, Tier 5 in account of "it's better than the Warrior". Gets a lot better with Daring Outlaw, when you can get sneak attack and almost full BAB for a "combat rogue" of sorts.

Swordsage (ToB): 34. The monkish ToB class and the one with most skills and maneuvers. The sheer number of maneuvers and the access to three exclusive schools, of which one (Shadow Hand) is really useful for mobility out of combat, gives you enough breadth of options to push into Tier 3.

Totemist (MoI): 34. Most of the arguments for Tier 3 that apply to the incearnate also apply to this class: the variety of powers gained with soulmenlds, the ease of changing soulmelds to fit the circumstances, etc. The totemist is immediately more combat-focused than the incarnate, and a majority of their melds grant natural attacks when bound to the totem chakra. This and a medium BAB makes the totemist a fine combat class that can also contribute outside of it.

Truenamer (ToM): X54. I'm not paid enough to trawl through this mess. It gets Tier X and that's it.

[Jormengand]

Good enough at what, though? Is it a buffer/debuffer? Game changer? Summoner? Skill Utility?

All of those except summoning (though they get an infamous calling ability at level 20). And the truenamer doesn't really need to summon anything; it has everything under wraps by itself anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First, the non-controversial ones:

Psychic Rogue: Take the Rogue (already near the top of their tier) and steal 3d6 sneak attack, 2 skill points/level, and UMD. In return, grant them 15 powers known off a pretty good list and almost as many power points as the Psychic Warrior. Oh, and the ability to deal Int damage; one attack routine at high level can leave many monsters drooling in the sewer. "Rogue plus magic" is an shoe-in for Tier 3

Spirit Shaman: Okay, I guess "non-controversial" was optimistic... I really don't know about this one. It's pretty much Druid Spells: the Class. Are Druid Spells enough to be Tier 1 without all the other Druid goodies to back them up? ...I have to say yes. But if you say no, I don't think they can be Tier 2, which is "the power of T1, but without the day-to-day flexibility." They have day-to-day flexibility, it's just the power that's in question. So I vote Tier 1, 3.

Swashbuckler: Three amazing levels, followed by four passable ones, followed by bupkiss. A good hit die and skills on a class that's encouraged to pump Int, weirdly enough. Outside of the Tome of Battle, they're the only class that can effectively do weapon damage without needing Strength (including with ranged weapons, if you can find a light or finessable ranged weapon-- throwing hammers spring to mind). A few decent ACFs, and Daring Outlaw helps a lot, but overall... well, you're making full attacks on a light-but-skillful chassis. Insightful Strike, Acrobatic Charge, and skills beat the Warrior by enough, I think, to escape NPC-tier, but they're still at the bottom of the barrel. Tier 5.

Swordsage: Plenty of skill points. Phenomenal variety in-combat-- more than some casters, honestly. Access to pretty much all the noncombat maneuvers-- if you can't figure out a thousand and one things to do with scent, invisibility, teleports, and wall-crawling, all at-will, I don't know why you're playing this game. Easily qualifies for Tier 3, much more strongly than either of its compatriots.

Totemist: They can wreck all the faces. This we know. Very, very little is more dangerous in melee (or at range!) than a Totemist at low levels, and once they can bind two melds to their Totem chakra they're even scarier. But not only do they have all the best offensive melds, they've got all the good utility ones, too. Quite sizable bonuses to all the scout-y and mobility skills, Speak With Animals, telepathy, magic-suppression, blindsense (ish), flight, ghost-ing through walls, teleportation, all at-will... alternate offensive modes like grapple, area attacks, ice-lasers, and save-or-lose effects... defensive effects like extra health, magic circle against evil, blur and blink... Oh, and one level of Incarnate lets you double-down on all the skill boosts and a lot of the defensive ones. Tier 3 with ease.

----------------------

I just went preliminary steps to build a Truenamer 10, probably as high a point as you're likely to see (beyond the very early levels, anyway). Looking at my power set...

I'm a top-notch Knowledge monkey-- Hidden Truth, what's essentially a pair of free Skill Focus (Knowledge)s, and nothing better to spend my skill points on, and component-less Identify. Knowledge Devotion seems like a no-brainer damage booster-- with everything else going on, easily get up to the +5/+5 bonus, which should apply to all those stupid damage-over-time powers.
I... could once be a secondary skillmonkey with Universal Aptitude, but no longer. Excellent at low levels, now a minor buff to drop on the rest of the party for as long as it lasts*. In a pinch it helps? Recitation of the Mindful State as a bonus feat helps with this as well; Disable Device and Open Lock don't do much without cross-class ranks, but I guess you can be a pretty good crafter or forger with no investment?
I can dispel things real good
I've got one good BFC effect, Solid Fog. Unlike the Warlock, I can use Archer's Eye to pick away at people trapped inside.
I can scatter a few random buffs on my party: Inertia Surge to get someone out of a grapple or BFC effect in a pinch, Haste on one person for most of a fight (if I give up my best debuff), Flight for a few rounds/one fight, I can let the archer bypass concealment or grant Protection from Arrows (now likely useless), I can give someone Improved Critical for a fight, I can grant energy resistance 10 (meh?) for a fight, Move Actions and restore the occasional buff that just got stripped... but the more buffs I drop, the less I can debuff. And, you know, only one target at a time.
I can dish out a few debuffs. I can immobilize an enemy... for a round... I can Slow a target for most of a fight (if I give up my best buff), I've got a hell of a save-or-lose that, unfortunately, requires the target to fail a Cha-based save... not a stat I could afford to pump too much.
I can do a little bit of out-of-combat healing
I can do damage over time! Potentially up to 4d6+10/round! Which is... about 7d6, so still well below even crappy 1d6/level blasting.
I've got a shot at doing two things at once, which would be nice... if not for the fact that I feel like you'll quickly run out of relevant effects to throw out on the battlefield. Not sure what the reliability of Quicken Utterance is.
I built as an Azurin to grab Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle) for a low-level attack. A 3d6+5 ranged touch has gotten pretty bad by this point, though it would have been a solid friend for a while.

It's not bad, assuming I can get my powers off regularly, but it's just not that great. I've got some below-par buffs and debuffs, one good BFC effect, one good dispel, and some below-par blasting, healing, and skill boosting. There's definitely a sharp drop in quality over time-- my build would have been fierce around 3rd level, and even up to around 6th I was getting decent stuff. But even then, a bunch of the fierceness was combing from my race; going Elf for the longbow proficiency would have been decent but a step down in quality. In any case, I don't feel much stronger or weaker than a Warlock, so... yeah. Truenamers are Tier 4 if you can make the checks, which does seem to be the case even at reasonably low optimization levels.

(For what it's worth, my build was
Azurin Truenamer 10
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 8, Cha 14 (32 point buy)
Skill Focus (Truespeak), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle; Azurin Bonus), Knowledge Devotion, Bonus Essentia, Truename Research (Bonus), Recitation of the Mindful State (Bonus), Quicken Utterance
Universal Aptittude, Intertia Surge, Hidden Truth, Archer's Eye, Keen Weapon, Lesser Word of Nurturing, Greater Speed of the Zephyr, Seek the Sky, Analyze Item, Energy Negation, Fog From the Void, Temporal Spiral, Spell Rebirth
Hadn't really looked at items too much, but a quick sketch would have me grab a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue along with the usual big 6 items and some play money for wands and the like-- probably drop a big chunk on a wand of Divine Insight, for emergencies. Might also wind up pitching a bunch of money to the Paragnostic Assembly, but that's too DM-specific for discussions like this)

[Bucky]

Synthesizing the other arguments in the thread, Truenamer: 43X25

(E): I should clarify the 2. In addition to Gate, Truenamers can also peak into 2 at low-TO or high-PO levels where getting +lots to skill checks is easy enoughl that Truenamers' ability to delete epic-level enemies while bypassing normal defenses is gamebreaking.

(E2): My vote has been superceded by a later vote

[Cosi]

Earlier, someone (I think maybe Grod?) said the Truenamer was at its best in boss fights. In case I forgot to respond already, that's exactly backwards. A boss fight is going to be CR > Level, which drops your ability to target it even more. At CR = Level + 2 (fairly conservative for a boss fight), your success rate is down 20% from wherever it was. Also, you've probably had some encounters where you needed to use your abilities, which makes that success chance even lower.


Spirit Shaman: Okay, I guess "non-controversial" was optimistic... I really don't know about this one. It's pretty much Druid Spells: the Class. Are Druid Spells enough to be Tier 1 without all the other Druid goodies to back them up? ...I have to say yes. But if you say no, I don't think they can be Tier 2, which is "the power of T1, but without the day-to-day flexibility." They have day-to-day flexibility, it's just the power that's in question. So I vote Tier 1, 3.

Wild Shape and Animal Companion are reasons people play Druids, but if you're using the original tier definitions (where Tier One is "breaking the game"), they don't matter much. Since the Spirit Shaman gets (basically) Druid casting, and loses Wild Shape and Animal Companion for a bunch of random spirit abilities that mostly seem pretty meh, it is about as good as a Druid by JaronK's rubric.


I built as an Azurin to grab Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle) for a low-level attack. A 3d6+5 ranged touch has gotten pretty bad by this point, though it would have been a solid friend for a while.

That's not a Truenamer ability at all, right? If your plan for low levels was "I'll take these feats and this race that are completely unrelated to my class and lean on them", that seems like a pretty good indication that your character isn't worth the paper its printed on (or whatever the digital equivalent of that insult is).


It's not bad, assuming I can get my powers off regularly, but it's just not that great.

That's not a trivial assumption. Looking at Troacctid's chart a 10th level Truenamer has a 55% success rate for his first utterance. Your chance of getting off four of the same utterance in a day at 10th level without a failure is 2% (.55 * .45 * .35 * .25 = .02165). With abilities as trash as utterances are, your only chance of contributing was being able to spam them. You can't even do that.

Reversed temporal spiral would be a totally sweet debuff (3 rounds worth of daze), except it requires you to make a 55% or worse check, then offers a save. So no, this is not, as Troacctid seems to believe, like attack rolls or saving throws. It's something that stacks on top of that, like Arcane Spell Failure or Miss Chances.

If Truenamers got all their abilities at will they would be slightly worse Warlocks. The fact that you get maybe two or three consistent uses per day if you optimize makes them trash tier. I would rather have a Swashbuckler. Sure, they suck, but at least they actually manage to reach the point of being allowed to do things that suck.


(For what it's worth, my build was
Azurin Truenamer 10
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 8, Cha 14 (32 point buy)
Skill Focus (Truespeak), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle; Azurin Bonus), Knowledge Devotion, Bonus Essentia, Truename Research (Bonus), Recitation of the Mindful State (Bonus), Quicken Utterance
Universal Aptittude, Intertia Surge, Hidden Truth, Archer's Eye, Keen Weapon, Lesser Word of Nurturing, Greater Speed of the Zephyr, Seek the Sky, Analyze Item, Energy Negation, Fog From the Void, Temporal Spiral, Spell Rebirth

This is a build that's using all your feat slots and (implicitly) some items. It manages to hit Tier Four, maybe. If only someone had taken me up on my request for a Tier Two Sorcerer list request. Then we could see if a Beguiler could beat that out with all its feats plus some items. I imagine it would be at least that good.

[Bucky]

@Cosi: Does your opinion on Truenamers change if the table allows the Item Familiar feat?

[Cosi]

@Cosi: Does your opinion on Truenamers change if the table allows the Item Familiar feat?

Item Familiar is one of many stupid and broken things in a book full of stupid and broken things. Asking if Item Familiar boosts the Truenamer is like asking if Recharge Magic boosts the Warmage or Bloodlines boost the Scout. The whole book is a bunch of optional crap that is explicitly at the purview of the DM. At best, Truenamer with Item Familiar is like a variant class like Domain Wizard or Divine Bard.

As far as the actual feat goes, it doesn't really change the paradigm particularly. You are more likely to succeed when you use your abilities, but those abilities are still terrible. Also, you would still be better off playing a Rogue or a Paladin and pumping your UMD or Diplomacy with the same stuff while having other abilities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Item Familiar is of note because it basically fixes the DC problem in one fell swoop; your base scaling now keeps up with the base DC curve, and every skill-boosting item and dip is just icing on the cake*. Honestly, while the feat is indeed overpowered crap, I'd much rather let a TRUENAMER take it than have them go begging for Paragnostic Assembly membership and custom competence items. But as a single-point optimization thing, it doesn't really factor in... and it doesn't change the fact that you Utterances remain awkward and underwhelming. So... meh?



*On a mildly related note, is it just me or is Marshal 1 a fantastic dip for a Truenamer? It lets you reverse your Int and Cha priorities, making your save DCs a lot better in the process-- and Cha pumping has more support than Int, methinks. Also gets you the armor and weapons for a gishy build. But anyways.

[Cosi]

Honestly, while the feat is indeed overpowered crap, I'd much rather let a TRUENAMER take it than have them go begging for Paragnostic Assembly membership and custom competence items.

This is the same bad logic that says the Artificer is good if you let them and only them pull WBL cheese. If a class needs something broken to not suck, you don't give it to them because otherwise they suck. You just accept that they suck. If the result of other classes taking Item Familiar is those classes being OP, but the result of the Truenamer taking it is the Truenamer being baseline functional, the conclusion should be that the Truenamer is terrible.

[Jormengand]

This is the same bad logic that says the Artificer is good if you let them and only them pull WBL cheese. If a class needs something broken to not suck, you don't give it to them because otherwise they suck. You just accept that they suck. If the result of other classes taking Item Familiar is those classes being OP, but the result of the Truenamer taking it is the Truenamer being baseline functional, the conclusion should be that the Truenamer is terrible.

Except we've repeatedly pointed out that they don't need it, you just choose to ignore that.

[Cosi]

Except we've repeatedly pointed out that they don't need it, you just choose to ignore that.

You've asserted that. No one's proved that (obviously, because it's not true). Troacctid's charts show that if you're willing to pump in up to a quarter of you WBL you can get a success rate of at most 75% on abilities that still allow saves.

Now look at what those a numbers really are. Now look at UMD. Now back at those numbers. Now look at your Truenamer. Except it's not a Truenamer, it's an Expert whose contributing more because he chose to use his skill boosters on a skill that's actually good.

[Lans]

A number of effects don't offer saves, like inertia surge and speed of zephyr.

[Jormengand]

A number of effects don't offer saves, like inertia surge and speed of zephyr.

And all the other good ones. The only utterance I wish didn't offer a save but does is reversed temporal spiral.

Not to mention the other points, such as that the UMD with partially charged wands meme has been done to death and the truenamer is still better at it than the expert, and that troacctid's optimisation includes questionable choices such as, say, not having 18 in int (which is a pretty basic one) and any real truenamer will be built better. Not that it matters when you have such a high chance to get off your powerful effects which almost invariably don't allow saves, and all the other things that we've already been over but Cosi deliberately ignores because they don't fit his world view.

[noce]

Psychic Rogue: abstain
I'm unfamiliar with the class. It seems a less psionic and more roguish Lurk, so I'd say 4,3.


Spirit Shaman: 2,1
Take a Druid. Remove all its class features. Split its casting stat. Give limited access to spell list.

A lvl 5 Spirit Shaman retrieves a single 3rd level spell, a single 2nd level spell and three 1st level spells, while a lvl 5 Sorcerer knows two 2nd level spells and four 1st level spells. At lvl 6, the Sorcerer catches up on 3rd level and still knows more 1st level spells. Things get worse as they level up, since the Spirit Shaman never retrieves more than three spells of the same level.
The fact he can change his spells every day is good, but the fact he can't know as many spells as a Sorcerer in a given day puts things on par.

And Sorcerer is SAD.
And spirits are a thing you maybe encounter once in your life.


Swashbuckler: 5
A Thug Fighter is better in every way. The only thing Swashie is known for is INT to damage, so it's only useful as a dip.

Some people like it for Daring Outlaw, but again, a sneak attack Thug Fighter is simpler to build and requires less resources.


Swordsage: 3,4,5
Really a nice class. He can be the skillmonkey, the face, the damage dealer.
Twentyfive maneuvers means huge versatility.

If maneuvers are chosen correctly, easily T3. If you keep picking Stone Dragon and Setting Sun, you become as worthless as a monk.


Totemist: 4,3
I know, incarnum often means versatility, but these guys just want to deal huge melee damage.
They have enough skill points and decent skill list. There are soulmelds that help you out of combat.

Still, you're limited in what you can do: you can be the party tracker, the spotter/listener and, to some extent, the skulker. Out of combat, you cannot contribute in the way that a Bard can.


Truenamer: abstain
I'd say T5.
I don't want to use my shtick just 1/day.
I don't want to play a caster with only single target spells.
DCs are CHA based and Truespeak is INT based, so you're MAD.

Truespeak DCs grow at a rate of 2*CR or 2*HD, while you're putting 1 rank per HD in the skill: my DM puts us against much higher CRs than party level, and the problem is even greater when he builds enemy NPCs, so theoretical skill optimization is optimistic compared to things my DM throws at me.
For example, we fought a Bone Devil (CR 9) at party level 5, so the check DC would have been 33 for a lvl 5 Truenamer.
This could obviously be subjective.

[Beheld]

And all the other good ones. The only utterance I wish didn't offer a save but does is reversed temporal spiral.

Not to mention the other points, such as that the UMD with partially charged wands meme has been done to death and the truenamer is still better at it than the expert, and that troacctid's optimisation includes questionable choices such as, say, not having 18 in int (which is a pretty basic one) and any real truenamer will be built better. Not that it matters when you have such a high chance to get off your powerful effects which almost invariably don't allow saves, and all the other things that we've already been over but Cosi deliberately ignores because they don't fit his world view.

Except that most/all of the utterances that don't grant saves are complete garbage that would make me ashamed to be adventuring with the character, and Cosi did address your claim of the Truenamers UMD abilities, and did address your claims about the no save utterances.

[Pleh]

Except we've repeatedly pointed out that they don't need it, you just choose to ignore that.

... you've pointed out that there's always the option to forego optimization if you don't mind shooting yourself in the foot. True enough, you can hobble along through a game with a hole in your foot and still contribute to the party. If you build your character just right, you can make it to where shooting yourself in the foot is barely any inconvenience at all.

I guess in my mind it comes to a set of averages for the class's playspace. Everyone knows you can easily make a T5 wizard by picking a bunch of bad and ineffective spells. That doesn't make the class as a whole T5 just because certain builds can get you there.

To me, it sounds like Truenamer has to optimize their character resources (feats, WBL, etc) into more or less this one type of build that makes them T3. That sounds like you're talking about an OP Ceiling (I know we haven't looked at TO for Truenamers yet, but this ceiling seems to be sloped to bottleneck a long ways before it reaches the top). To be fair, I'm sure the OP Floor isn't much lower than most other full caster OP floors. But I'm not seeing a gradual spread of various Truenamers that can be marginally good at a number of different things. I'm seeing one Truenamer who is marginally good at a number of different things.

You ask someone what kind of Rogue they are playing. They might say, "an assassin," or "a thief," or "a con artist."

You ask someone what kind of Wizard they are playing. They might say, "a conjurer," or "a blaster," or "a necromancer."

You ask someone what kind of Fighter they are playing. They might say, "a meat shield/tank," or "a tripper/battlefield control," or "an ubercharger."

... You ask someone what kind of Truenamer they are playing? "The kind that can do things (often enough to matter)."

I'm sure you see where I'm getting stuck here. It's one thing to say that any class played poorly enough can be T6. It's another thing to say that the class just doesn't have many options to do much anything else.

"But you only need one way to be effective."

No. A class needs to have more than one way it can be roleplayed. This class seems rather self-pigeon-holed.

"But it's reasonably effective even in low op."

Sure, but what Tier is it in low op? Can we really say that the utterances (even when they're working) are 100% Tier 3 material? Don't get me wrong. Any class that can be a Game Changer with reliability probably deserves to be at least T3. I just don't have time to glance over the list of utterances and hope that my brief glimpse is even remotely accurate to how it actually plays in game (which we all know would be nothing short of a miracle).

Here's a good question to ask: what utterances do you usually play with? What are their pros and cons?

I still have trouble seeing this getting past T4 in most instances of the build. It feels comparable to playing a monk or rogue to me. You'll be spending all your character resources making your shtick more effective trying to keep up or stay ahead of that troublesome curve, while other characters are free to use their resources to make themselves unique or more focused on some specialty.

Aren't character resources meant to be fun, rather than necessary to the build? Isn't that why people are so upset that martials wind up getting feat starved and/or MAD?

But while silly PrCs make you waste feats on Dodge and Mobility in return for some class feature that you're hoping will take your character to the next level, Truenamer wants you to spend those feats on trying to make sure you can reliably use the original class features you took the class to obtain. Sure, if you really play along well and spend those resources on exclusively playing the Truenamer's game, you can get it to do some nifty stuff.

Something is very wrong with this picture. Other classes get to spend character resources to simply add stuff to their character. It can make them more specialized or more generalized. Low Tier classes often need to stay specialized in something to stay relevant, sure, but they still usually have a number of options as to what they can be specialized in.

Then we get the Truenamer, which looks like it got this all backwards. Most different ways of building the Truenamer aren't very effective, but the one that is effective has a lot of options at how they will be effective.

I don't think that works in the Truenamer's favor when it comes to Tiering.

[Karl Aegis]

A quick glance at their utterances checked all the boxes on my checklist for tier 3.

The truespeak DCs aren't even that hard. When you get a 1-6 bonus to the check every level and the enemies CR stays about the same for the first five levels and you have more abilities than their are rounds of combat by even the mid levels the laws aren't even a problem. I will be voting at least tier 3 when I finally get around to analyzing the rest of the classes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A quick glance at their utterances checked all the boxes on my checklist for tier 3.

The truespeak DCs aren't even that hard. When you get a 1-6 bonus to the check every level and the enemies CR stays about the same for the first five levels and you have more abilities than their are rounds of combat by even the mid levels the laws aren't even a problem. I will be voting at least tier 3 when I finally get around to analyzing the rest of the classes.
Check again; a lot of the utterances have obnoxious limits and weird wordings. Haste/Slow only applies to one target, Fly only lasts for 5 rounds, you can't target multiple people with the same Utterance at the same time...

[Bucky]

Truenamer has the unique ability to punish enemies for being severely under-CR'd.

[GrayDeath]

Truenamer has the unique ability to punish enemies for being severely under-CR'd.

That is incredibly funny. And quite true.

Oh the Puns. ^^

[Beheld]

Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I will go ahead and make a "standard" True Namer, that meets my arbitrary average for optimization, then I will run him through SGT.

Here is what he will do: 1) He will prioritize Int, and have an Int Race. 2) He will buy Truespeak competence bonus item at whatever levels feel appropriate based on WBL. 3) He will start with a PB 18 in Int. 4) He will use the best utterances I can find that don't involve a save, and will probably dumb Cha. This isn't to say this is the only way to play a Truenamer, just that we've heard a lot of claims about how the Truespeak check is just the check you make to effect enemies, like an attack roll, not like a spell failure, so saves should probably not be given if that's the case, also Mad Cha dual casting seems like a non ideal method demonstrating how great a character is.

I have no idea what supposed benefit you get for being Illumina, because I don't remember the 18 different combos that you can with Illumians, and Races of Destiny is a **** book that I only own because I'm a completionist.

Relevant "levels" are 5/10/15, so I will only figure out WBL at those levels, but feats utterances can just go into a 20 level build:

The Truenamer:

Levels: 1-20 Truenamer.
Stats: 32PB: 8/14/16/18/8/8
Race: Grey Elf: 6/16/14/20/8/8
Feats: 1: Skill Focus (Truespeak)
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Extend Utterance
9: Quicken Utterance
12: Enlarge Utterance
15: Er. Got nothing for now.
Bonus 6: True Name Research
Bonus Recitation 8: Meditative State
Bonus Recitation 15: Sanguine State

Utterances:
Evolving Mind:
1-5: Minor Word of Nurturing, Universal Aptitude, Lesser Word of Nurturing, Speed of the Zephyr.
6-10: Potent Word of Nurturing, Moderate Word of Nurturing, Vision Sharpened, Seek the Sky
11-15: Spell Rebirth, Caster Lens, Word of Bolstering, Critical Word of Nurturing, Essence of Lifespark

Crafted Tool:
5: Fortify Armor
10: Analyze Item
15: Rebuild Item (This definitely does not do that thing that he claimed it does, about giving you infinite wand charges.)
15: Transmute Weapon

Perfected Map:
10: Fog From the Void
15: Energy Vortex

HP: 30HP AC: 21 Saves: 3, 4, 3
5th level gold: +2 Int item, Lesser Amulet of Truespeak, some other crap. (+1 Chain Shirt and +1 Shield?)
5th level skills: Truespeech +22, Concentation +11, UMD? +7, Knowledge Arcana +17, Knowledge Nature, Planes, Religion, Dungeoneering, Local +14

10th level gold: Greater Amulet, +4 Int Item, who ****ing cares what else.
10th level Skills: Truespeech +34, Concentration +16, UMD +12, Knowledge Arcana, Planes +24, Nature, Religion, Dungeoneering, Local +21

15th level: I'm not doing 15th level WBL, +6 Item and Greater Amulet.
15th level skills: +40, Concentration +21, UMD +17, Knowledge Arcana, Planes, Nature +30, Religion, Dungeoneering, Local +27.


If anyone has any comments/suggestions on the build, before I set about playing minecraft and never getting around to actually doing the SGT, now would be the time :D.

Also, does this class have rules for changing out old essences like Sorcerer does for spells that I somehow missed, because this is ****ing stupid. Should be able to replace a lot of these as you level up.

[Troacctid]

Picking the damage over time utterances without Mortalbane or Extend seems like a clear misplay. Quicken without doing the math first is suspect. Spell Penetration line is pointless as you can just bypass SR by raising the Truespeak check. You can retrain using the rules in PH2.

Also, many utterances are buffs, so a playtest running the class solo is unlikely to be an accurate representation of its power.

[Beheld]

Picking the damage over time utterances without Mortalbane or Extend seems like a clear misplay.

Saying "this class has to rely on MortalBane dots" is basically saying that the class is non functional. Extend, you are probably right, although, ****ing god, a class that relies on taking at least 4 rounds to kill the enemy is having a bad day, but whatever.


Quicken without doing the math first is suspect.

I'm not even sure what you mean.


Spell Penetration line is pointless as you can just bypass SR by raising the Truespeak check.

Where are the rules for this? Did not see anything like that. EDIT: I see it, it's the very last sentence after all the ones about it being an SLA that goes onto next page. Good, let's me push Extend/Enlarge further up.


You can retrain using the rules in PH2.

Yeah, I'm not going to assume usage of an optional incomplete rules change from PHB II in character creation.


Also, many utterances are buffs, so a playtest running the class solo is unlikely to be an accurate representation of its power.

The buffs aren't very good. In fact, most of them are terrible. I mean, most of everything is terrible, but the buffs are too.

[Lans]

I'm not even sure what you mean. Quicken gives +20 to the check, so its pointless unless you really optimizesd






I have no idea what supposed benefit you get for being Illumina, because I don't remember the 18 different combos that you can with Illumians, and Races of Destiny is a **** book that I only own because I'm a completionist.



+2 to intelligence based checks

[Troacctid]

Saying "this class has to rely on MortalBane dots" is basically saying that the class is non functional. Extend, you are probably right, although, ****ing god, a class that relies on taking at least 4 rounds to kill the enemy is having a bad day, but whatever.
I mean, I'm not gonna say it's a required feat, but if your build is going to be taking every single dot on the class's list, it should be pretty safe to say you're gonna want Mortalbane, especially since I'm assuming the main reason you took all those dots was cuz Jormengand praised them for their combo power with the feat, right? Plus, it's your only real source of damage, so if you're going to run a support mage through a solo campaign, I figure you don't have much choice anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Quicken gives +20 to the check, so its pointless unless you really optimizesd
I mean, if you have the free feat slot (and it's not like you've got a ton of high-level stuff to reach for) and have even a slight shot at the DC, you might as well grab it; it costs you nothing but a swift action to try.

[Troacctid]

With +20 to the DC, it means you have to already have a 100% success rate on the utterance in order to be able to quicken it even on a nat-20. So while you can technically try, it will actually be impossible to succeed regardless of your roll, unless your check is highly optimized.

[Pleh]

Is it fair to make an argument about docking a class's tier based on incomprehensible rules?

I mean, I know a lot of people have figured it out, but it seems like a lot more have got it wrong and don't realize it.

Argument being that it's harder to make a good character when most people don't even have an accurate idea about how it actually functions.

[Jormengand]

Is it fair to make an argument about docking a class's tier based on incomprehensible rules?

I mean, I know a lot of people have figured it out, but it seems like a lot more have got it wrong and don't realize it.

Argument being that it's harder to make a good character when most people don't even have an accurate idea about how it actually functions.

I'd rather that people assume that the rules in the class are actually being followed, even if people might have difficulty understanding them, and I'd also rather people follow the normal system of tiers that hold (or don't, in X's case) across optimisation levels rather than assuming one or the other is a more likely OP level.

[Pleh]

I'd rather that people assume that the rules in the class are actually being followed, even if people might have difficulty understanding them,

That's fair as long as we've been consistent in this position with all the classes.


and I'd also rather people follow the normal system of tiers that hold (or don't, in X's case) across optimisation levels rather than assuming one or the other is a more likely OP level.

Can we unpack this a bit? If we're tiering without OP, I think that lowers the Truenamer's tier.

[Jormengand]

Can we unpack this a bit? If we're tiering without OP, I think that lowers the Truenamer's tier.

If you assume that changing the optimisation level will wildly change the tier, vote X. If you don't, it doesn't matter what optimisation level you assume since they should ultimately end in the same tier anyway, so vote that tier.

[Karl Aegis]

If you purposely make a bad character your character will be bad. Like if I made a character who threw improvised, oversized weapons they weren't proficient with at maximum range while wearing mountain plate and a tower shield they also weren't proficient with and had a dexterity of 1 I would have a bad character. The tier system doesn't work if you purposely make bad decisions. If we're at this optimization level Hexblade is king because a hawk familiar is badass enough to beat every other character out there. Still doesn't mean Hexblade is Tier 1.

[Mehangel]

If you purposely make a bad character your character will be bad. Like if I made a character who threw improvised, oversized weapons they weren't proficient with at maximum range while wearing mountain plate and a tower shield they also weren't proficient with and had a dexterity of 1 I would have a bad character. The tier system doesn't work if you purposely make bad decisions. If we're at this optimization level Hexblade is king because a hawk familiar is badass enough to beat every other character out there. Still doesn't mean Hexblade is Tier 1.

Yes, but in relation to the Truenamer, it has a VERY low Floor, and a somewhat low ceiling. There is a difference between someone purposefully making a bad character and someone who with little experience draws up a first level character without looking at any of the guides. For example, people can build level 1 wizards with an Intelligence score of 14 or 15 with mostly random spell selection and still be nearly just as effective as level 1 wizards with higher Intelligence or selectively choosing their spells. But with the Truenamer, if you do not MAX out Intelligence, ranks in Truespeak, select the correct utterances, or take the Skill Focus feat you are screwed.

I am aware of no other class that is so limited. Melee martials are not Required to take Power Attack, Druids are not Required to take Natural Spell, etc. Do they help? Yes, but the class still functions if you do not take them.

[Troacctid]

Yes, but in relation to the Truenamer, it has a VERY low Floor, and a somewhat low ceiling. There is a difference between someone purposefully making a bad character and someone who with little experience draws up a first level character without looking at any of the guides. For example, people can build level 1 wizards with an Intelligence score of 14 or 15 with mostly random spell selection and still be nearly just as effective as level 1 wizards with higher Intelligence or selectively choosing their spells. But with the Truenamer, if you do not MAX out Intelligence, ranks in Truespeak, select the correct utterances, or take the Skill Focus feat you are screwed.

I am aware of no other class that is so limited. Melee martials are not Required to take Power Attack, Druids are not Required to take Natural Spell, etc. Do they help? Yes, but the class still functions if you do not take them.
I think any reasonable floor is still T5 as long as you have the amulet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The thing about the Truenamer's floor is that it drops HARD. I mean, I don't think "good Int, Skill Focus, and the one magic items in the same book" is unreasonable to assume, but even that, according to your math, leaves you with a fairly good chance of wasting your turn. Which would probably be fine if Utterances were as powerful as spells*, but they're not. You have a high failure rate and a lot of spectacularly crappy abilities. It's compounded.


*Looking at the math, the Truenamer actually did a better job of skill-based magic then expected. One has to wonder what a Wizard would be like if they had to make, oh, "Spellcasting" skill checks at the same DCs.

[Pleh]

One has to wonder what a Wizard would be like if they had to make, oh, "Spellcasting" skill checks at the same DCs.

I believe that would make wizards "balanced"

[Cosi]

The truespeak DCs aren't even that hard. When you get a 1-6 bonus to the check every level and the enemies CR stays about the same for the first five levels and you have more abilities than their are rounds of combat by even the mid levels the laws aren't even a problem.

If CRs are staying constant, you're facing groups of enemies, and that hoses you super hard. Your crappy DoT and crappy debuffs are stretch against a single target, but they're chump change if you're fighting more than one enemy.


*Looking at the math, the Truenamer actually did a better job of skill-based magic then expected. One has to wonder what a Wizard would be like if they had to make, oh, "Spellcasting" skill checks at the same DCs.

You'd just cast a bunch of spells in downtime and win the game. The answer to pretty much all questions in the form "what would Wizards do if spellcasting in combat blew chunks" is "cast planar binding a bunch of times and win the game". Even in combat it's probably less terrible. You're basically just stuck with having to prepare different spells in every slot, which was probably a good plan anyway. Spellcraft even has a couple of synergy bonuses.


Not to mention the other points, such as that the UMD with partially charged wands meme has been done to death and the truenamer is still better at it than the expert,

Your rebuild item trick doesn't work. Like, at all.


and that troacctid's optimisation includes questionable choices such as, say, not having 18 in int (which is a pretty basic one) and any real truenamer will be built better.

You need CHA for saves. I would not necessarily expect all Truenamers to have max INT in the way I would expect all Wizards or Beguilers to.


Not that it matters when you have such a high chance to get off your powerful effects which almost invariably don't allow saves, and all the other things that we've already been over but Cosi deliberately ignores because they don't fit his world view.

Alright, let's look at the utterances:

1st level (1st level character):
defensive edge -- +1 AC/-1 AC. No save, but holy crap is that a terrible ability. If you had that at will as a free action, it would be marginally better than Weapon Focus.
inertia surge -- 1 round freedom of movement/no movement. The defensive part is okay but only effects magical restrictions for some reason. The offensive part is terrible. What even is the use case for a 1 round movement debuff? I guess if you had it at will you could kite people with no ranged attacks? Except not really, on account of you have to spend your actions to do it.
knight's puissance -- +2 attack/-2 attack. No save, but still not worth your time.
universal aptitude -- +5 on skills/-5 on skills. At low levels, this is an okay substitute for some skill checks. At mid levels, this is an okay buff. At no point is this a good debuff, because how often are people making skill checks in combat?
minor word of nurturing -- Fast Healing 1/1d6 damage for two rounds. It's like eldtrich blast, except it rapidly gets worse with use.

Overall, there's one offensive effect there that I would charitably call "useful", and while it doesn't allow a save, it's a pretty crappy blast.

2nd level (3rd level character):
archer's eye -- ignore concealment/protection from arrows. By RAW, I don't think the concealment half of this does anything. There aren't "penalties" from concealment (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Concealment), there is a miss chance from concealment, and archer's eye doesn't say squat about miss chances.
hidden truth -- +10 Knowledge/+10 Bluff. Skill buff. I'm not sure why the normal and reversed forms have different durations -- the effects seem basically identical.
perceive the unseen -- Blind-Fight/concealment.
silent caster -- Free Silent Spell/Can't make noise (including casting spells). The offensive half allows a save, but honestly it kind of sucks anyway on account of a 1 round duration. You spend an action to deny the target their action if their only action was a spell with a verbal component. Most caster monsters will just use their SLAs normally, or punch you in the face because they are demons or dragons.
speed of the zephyr -- +20ft speed/-10ft speed. No save, but really bad.
strike of might -- +10 damage on an attack/-5 damage on an attack. Another bad debuff that gives no save.
temporal twist -- extra attack/1 round daze. The daze offers a save.
lesser word of nurturing -- upgrade to minor word of nurturing. You get one at every level, and they all seem to be "eldtrich blast if it got less likely to hit over the day". I'm going to skip these in future.

You get some debuffs that might be good, but allow saves. You continue to get crappy blasting.

3rd level (6th level character):
accelerated attack -- Spring Attack/slightly crappy Spring Attack for spells. I don't know who "spend an action so that one of your allies might be able to move and attack" sounded good to, but it sounds pretty crap to me.
energy negation -- Energy Resistance/Energy DoT. Better damage per check than the word of nurturing series, but worse DoT. I would be cool to stack these, except Truenamers suck so you can't.
incarnation of angels -- Celestial/Fiendish. The best part of these templates is the smite, and you can only use that once per day.
seek the sky -- fly/can't fly. I guess that technically qualifies as a no-save debuff?
greater speed of the zephyr -- single target haste/single target slow. As an AoE slow wasn't amazing. This is single target.
temporal spiral -- Extra Move Action/3 round Daze. This would be really cool offensively, except it gives a save.
vision sharpened -- see invisibility/invisibility.

4th level (10th level character):
breath of cleansing -- 2nd save against spell/SLA/supernatural/1 round nauseated. Another funky duration. Why does the normal version of this last 1 round? Anyway, it gives a save if you use it as a debuff.
caster lens -- +2 Caster Level/-2 Caster Level. I guess this is okay against blasters that aren't using metamagic?
confounding resistance -- Evasion + Mettle/-2 save penalty (or reduce evasion, but that seems unlikely to come up). No save, but doesn't actually do anything unless your abilities require saves.
magic contraction -- SR 11+level/Empower Spell.
morale boost -- remove fear/5 round Frighten. Save against the Frighten.
spell rebirth -- Un-dispel a spell/Dispel a spell. Not bad if your enemies happen to have buffs running.
word of blostering -- Restore Ability Drain/-1d6 penalty to STR/DEX/CON. Bad, because the reason you do ability damage is to incap people with low scores and penalties can't do that.

The good debuffs here require saves.

5th level (14th level character):
eldritch attraction -- Move 40ft towards you/Move 40ft away from you. Offers a save. Oh, and it gets harder to use against targets larger than medium.
greater energy negation -- Energy Immunity/damage enemies that hit target. It's really weird that the reversed version of energy negation is a DoT, while the reversed version of this is a buff.
essence of lifespark -- Restore Negative Level/Inflict Negative Level. Negative levels are cool, and this doesn't give a save. On the other hand, one negative level at 14th is a lot less cool.
preternatural clarity -- +5 bonus to a roll/confusion. The confusion offers a save.
greater seek the sky -- Better fly/Make flying target fall. This is actually okay against high flying enemies. Except isn't the range cap on utterances like 30ft or 60ft? Because 3d6 damage is sucktastic at 14th, and 6d6 isn't much better.
sensory focus -- Blindsight + true seeing/Blinded and Deafened. Debuff, as almost always, offers a save. Also seems kind of terrible at 14th level.
ward of peace -- Better (I hope) sanctuary/temporary banishment. Banishment gives a save.

You get some debuffs I'd have cared about several levels ago, but they give saves.

6th level (18th level character):
breath of recovery -- Clear debuffs/Paralyze. Paralyze gives a save.
ether reforged -- Armor effects incorporeal/ethereal jaunt.
mystic rampart -- +5 AC, DR 5/-/-5 AC. No save, but AC debuffs are pretty bad at this level since people mostly don't miss.
singular mind -- Clear mind control/dominate monster. dominate monster gives a save and only has concentration duration.

Again, your good debuffs give saves.

If I had more time I'd do invocations for comparison.

I can't find a single debuff I care about that doesn't offer a save on the entire list. I think the reason Jormengand thinks Truenamers are good is because their copy of Tome of Magic omitted all the saving throw information and has a bizarre version of rebuild item (seriously, what is the logic on that doing what they think it does?).

EDIT: I misread Jormengand's post as "debuffs" for some reason. Still, it's not like there's much power elsewhere. Your blasting is barely at eldrtich blast levels for the first few uses a day, and none of your buffs or utility do anything particularly compelling. Clearing someone of debuffs is no enough to matter at 18th level. Looking back over, there's maybe one effect a level you care about (true seeing, SR), and it's usually strapped to something pretty meh.

[Beheld]

I mean, I'm not gonna say it's a required feat, but if your build is going to be taking every single dot on the class's list, it should be pretty safe to say you're gonna want Mortalbane, especially since I'm assuming the main reason you took all those dots was cuz Jormengand praised them for their combo power with the feat, right? Plus, it's your only real source of damage, so if you're going to run a support mage through a solo campaign, I figure you don't have much choice anyway.

No, the main reason I picked the blast, is because they are (sadly) the best no save things the Truenamer can do at every utterance level during combat. And no, the Truenamer is not a support mage, it's a bad mage. It's buffs are more likely to seem impressive, because everyone else in the group is better than the Truenamer, so even the most meaningless thing they do will be more impressive than the True Namer, but that doesn't mean he's actually support. He brings no non combat action benefits, his utility is worse than a bard or rogue, and in combat, he does incredibly pathetic things like use his standard action to give one of his allies an extra attack once, at a level where other people are doing it to the whole party for several rounds. But the Truenamer does benefits from facing 1/4th as many encounters a day, thus saving it the embarrassment of running itself off the RNG a bunch of times.

I don't expect people to always without fail take a weird 3.0 feat from a book they probably don't own and definitely wouldn't consider looking through for True Named abilities, hence prioritizing actual utterance feats, instead of taking Sudden Enlarge or whatever.

[Karl Aegis]

Put your money where your mouth is.

Challenge: Hit hawk familiar with Mage Armor cast on it with ability. You are level 1.

Warrior:
20 Strength 1 BAB
5+1 vs AC 22
16+ to hit the hawk with weapon

Truenamer
10 int 1 rank True Speak
+1 vs DC 17
16+ to hit the hawk with truespeak

Same success rate vs the hawk familiar and I didn't invest more than the ability to use my ability at all.

Cosi, you say Truenamers aren't better at Use Magic Device checks than experts when Truenamers need charisma for their saves, but experts don't have a reason to invest in charisma. Truenamers have Use Magic Device on their skill list. Your bizarre tangent doesn't make any sense. Read the class before you make the same insane argument you do for every class.

[Cosi]

Put your money where your mouth is.

Challenge: Hit hawk familiar with Mage Armor cast on it with ability. You are level 1.

Maximum Range of an Utterance: 60ft.
Fly Speed of a Hawk: 60ft.
Amount of Hosed the Truenamer is: Totally.

Incidentally, that's less than the first range increment of a crossbow.


Cosi, you say Truenamers aren't better at Use Magic Device checks than experts when Truenamers need charisma for their saves, but experts don't have a reason to invest in charisma. Truenamers have Use Magic Device on their skill list. Your bizarre tangent doesn't make any sense. Read the class before you make the same insane argument you do for every class.

Yes, someone trying to make UMD checks has no reason to invest in CHA. None whatsoever. No possible reason that anyone could ever imagine. Not a thing they would ever do.

I would also love to know how this is the same argument I make for every class. Like, this is an argument that Truenamers suck, and I said Beguilers were good, so it seems odd that I would be making the same argument in both cases.

[Karl Aegis]

You're doing that bizarre thing where you have no understanding of what is going on at any given moment again. If you really don't want to actually read what is written you don't have to be on the forum.

[Cosi]

You're doing that bizarre thing where you have no understanding of what is going on at any given moment again. If you really don't want to actually read what is written you don't have to be on the forum.

I noticed that you dropped the part of this conversation where you failed to prove that a Truenamer is better than a Warrior with the world's most contrived challenge. Seriously, you'd think you could at least find a creature with a move speed lower than the class's range limitation.

If you projected any more, you could get a job in a movie theater.

[Karl Aegis]

Seriously, your answer to every challenge is, "I'm not where the challenge is at". Every single time. It's like you can't even understand what the conversation is about. If you knew more about the game maybe you could understand what we were talking about, but you really seem adamant on being too green.

[Coretron03]

I noticed that you dropped the part of this conversation where you failed to prove that a Truenamer is better than a Warrior with the world's most contrived challenge. Seriously, you'd think you could at least find a creature with a move speed lower than the class's range limitation.

If you projected any more, you could get a job in a movie theater.

"Worlds most contrived challenge"
The truenamer has 10 int and 1 rank in truenaming compared to the warriors 20 str. Yeah, Right.

[Jormengand]

Which would probably be fine if Utterances were as powerful as spells*

Many of them are pretty much carbon copies of, or very similar to, the spells that other casters get at the same level. The durations are shorter, yes, but you don't need protection from energy/arrows to last for a long time. You don't necessarily need fly to last more than 30 seconds either. Many utterances are more powerful than spells (JaronK always brings up Magecraft, which allows a +5 bonus on a single craft check, in discussions of low-level casters' abilities. Universal Aptitude is a +5 bonus on ALL skills, which never goes out of fashion. Similarly, Greater Dispel Magic isn't nearly as likely to succeed as Reversed Spell Rebirth, which is a dumb spell because, well, let's say that if there'd been a truenamer in Azure City they could just have turned off Xykon's epic spell). Spider climb does last far longer than speed of the zephyr, but it's the difference between climbing 20 feet and climbing your base land speed plus 20 feet). At laster levels, they do start to get a little worse, with the expection that they won't, because the spellcaster will thank you for empowering all their stuff if they're an evoker or conjurer, tanking everyone's saves by 5 if they're en enchanter, illusionist, or necromancer, and buffing their caster level if they're practically anything. Ether reforged is a weird one but can also potentially stop enemies being your problem, say if you're fighting a particularly nasty battle cleric who can no longer hit you with a giant hammer because he's ethereal. Oh, and one of your utterances literally lets you spend your actions dominating someone(or some-dragon), though unfortunately it's one of those few useful ones which allows saves. Ward of peace makes all of your damage over time abilities suddenly more hilarious because no enemies can target you. And the reversed version allows you to hide someone willing or some object, albeit not for long. Plus, because returning to the room doesn't take any actions, it could make for a useful surprise round!

I'm pretty sure that a truenamer could just flat-out beat a T5 class or probably even a T4 class in a straight fight. They'd not be particuarly hard-pressed to beat multiple varieties of hell out of a psychic warrior either. Out of character, having someone who, at level 4, can easily have a chance at just offhand knowing where the artfact of doom is (the hardest questions on a subject are knowledge DC 30 ("Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions)."), so a truenamer with hidden truth and any intelligence bonus cannot have no chance to know offhand) is really quite useful. Hey, if you find a trap the truenamer can have a shot at disarming it if they have a single cross-class rank in it! (Level 10 truenamer vs crushing room trap CR 10 DC20 gets a +1 for rank, +5 from int, +5 universal aptitude and +3 from recitation, meaning they have a 75% chance to do something that a scholar of ancient languages should have no right to even be able to do. The search check I will give you is trickier, but truenamers can also do things like open locks with the recitation, which is useful if no-one has Knock). If nothing else, universal aptitude will be able to give the rogue a +5 to all three rolls, which is exceptionally useful anyway.

Also, however dumb you think the DoT utterances are, at low optimisation most melee characters are probably still hitting each other with big sticks for 2d6+3STR/2 damage, so if you want to play the low-OP game you're probably rivalling their damage output just by throwing down that one utterance and then using your choice of utterances to force them to rely on whichever of melee and ranged they don't want to be relying on (or even using reversed words of nurturing which eventually outdamage sticks). If we're talking "Take obvious feats and items and never look through books", then every noncaster except possibly the rogue is just as gimped in combat as the truenamer. Also, buff yourself with reversed greater energy negation and watch as everyone who tries to hit you in melee take more damage than they're likely to deal.

Incidentally, adding random templates to creatures is surprisingly effective - darkvision, SR, DR and energy resistance (hello I am truenamer I have built in ability to ignore SR of creatures I target). I never even looked at that utterance too hard before. Other things I never noticed: the truenamer's slow effect doesn't allow a save. (Otherwise it would say normal: none reverse: will negates). Slow is actually pretty useful when it doesn't allow a save (though being single-target isn't fun).

But ultimately, saying that the truenamer utterances aren't any good seems disingenuous when a few of them I'd consider taking as spells in the highest spell level you have when you get them (Universal aptitude, archer's eye, hidden truth, speed of the zephyr, temporal twist, spell rebirth, sensory focus, mystic rampart, rebuild item, transmute weapon). Many I would consider if the spell equivalent didn't exist or wasn't on my list, mainly the seek the sky utterances. When one of your utterances means that any skill roll that a party member makes has a 25% chance to be successful because of you in addition to whatever chance it had to be successful anyway, assuming that it was a non-negligible check and actually had a 25% chance to fail anyway, that's pretty damn useful to say the least. Notwithstanding the fact that if you really don't trust someone, you can also cause them to tank any bluff check they try to make alongside boosting the party wis-user's sense motive.

[Beheld]

SGT level 5:
Success rate of effecting Self/equal CR opponent on first try: 85%


Traps: He's going to fail most of the saves, takes some damage, and then move on. Or get hit by the attack most of the time, (if not all the time) take some damage, and then move on. His healing pool at this level is, assuming he settles down to take 20 after each trap, is 72HP. Ignoring effects like Bestow Curse/Sepia Snake Sigil, just the damage of one copy of each CR 4 trap is: 14(.75)+21(.7)+9(.75)+14.5(.75)+(21+18.75(.45))(.7 5)+13=77.8. And that's ignoring that some of the traps just kill you. This a loss.

Animated Iron Statute: This has hardness 10. His best attack does on average 9 damage per round. This is a loss.

Basilisk: To effect the Basilisk, he has to look at it, and have an 85% chance to do 18 average damage. Then again to do a 75% chance of doing 18 average damage. Then again to do a 65% chance of doing 18 average damage, and finally knocking the Basilisk unconscious. Not sure the best way to calculate chance of facing additional saves is. But for starters, let's check to see his chance of surviving to do that: DC 13 vs +3 Fort. So 45% chance of stoning each attack. So only a 17% chance of not dying from the first three attacks. That would be if he had a 120% chance of making the Truespeak check. It's going to be some lower number. Loss.

Large Fire Elemental: Gets 1 attack on the first turn, and then two every turn after that. Does average of 7.2 damage per attack. True Namer does average 7.65 damage per round for the first two rounds at least. Elemental has twice the HP, and does twice the damage. Loss.

Manticore: Before you can ever even effect it with an utterance, you must deal with 24 spikes doing average of 72 damage. You could try to crossbow it to death, and die, you could try to heal through this and die, or you can try to Zephy and run away (but still probably die). Loss.

Phase Spider: You need 4.6 rounds of damage to kill a Phase Spider. Each point of con damage is worth 2.5 HP damage, so that's 4.5(.65)(.35)(2.5) HP damage from poison, and 2.5 average damage form biting, so total average damage per round 5 damage. That's 6 rounds! If you succeed on each True Speech check at 85%, 75%, 65%, you can kill him! Crap. Ugh, now for the first time I have to actually figure out how to math the actual Truenamer damage. Well, chance to get three effects on the first time is: 41%. So you have a 41% chance of winning by that method. Seems like you can fail a single check and still win, but not two rounds. If someone can give better math, that would be great, but I think I'm going to assume "miss one check" totals to about 10-15% and call this a draw. FIRST NOT LOSS!

Centaur Archers: Two sets of 26HP, you start with a 105% chance to effect the first one. It takes two successful checks per Centaur, but you can alternate targets whenever you just succeeded on the first one. You are getting attacked at least 9 attacks no matter what, probably more. That's 27 damage no matter what. Even a single missed check results in your death. Also, if they attack you from beyond 60ft, you die. Also, if them moving into melee is better (it probably is), they kill you. Loss.

Grimlock Assault Team: You start with a 130% chance to effect them, each usage of your utterance kills them, albeit, taking two rounds. So after 5 rounds, they are all dead if you are alive. If, in the worse case scenario, you don't notice them and get ambushed (very likely, +13 hide to -1 Spot) then you get attacked 8 times on the first and second round, and then 6, 4, 2. That's 42 damage and you die. On the other hand, noticing the ambush and being able to avoid being surrounded reduces attacks per round by at least a couple, and possibly all of them. Arguably this could be classified a draw, but I'm going to call this "Slight win."

Howler/Allip Tag Team. Between the Allip's incorporeality and the Howler's 39 HP, you need to succeed on average of 7 truespeech checks. Your seventh check has a success rate of 45% when you are rolling it. An Allip takes average of 6 rounds to kill even if you prioritize it over the howler, and knocks you out in 7 rounds, except, it actually gains temp HP that make it harder to kill. It could probably kill you on it's own. The Howler gives 1.25 penalty to skill checks per attack, in 5 rounds you have another -6 penalty, bringing your success rate on your 7th successful Truespeech check to 15%. Yeah, with these two together, the Truenamer dies. Loss.

Cleric of Hextor with his zombie buddies. He has 5 of them, and you can kill one per round. But then you have also a Cleric. He can fight better than you, and he has a better chance of making you Blind (and therefore unable to use any utterances at all) than you do of getting off your 6th utterance. If you do target him first, there are still 5 zombies beating on you, and you are probably also blind. Loss.

1 Slight Win.
1 Draw.
8 Losses.

That's honestly kind of impressively bad, I think even the Monk might beat that.


Many of them are pretty much carbon copies of, or very similar to, the spells that other casters get at the same level. The durations are shorter, yes, but you don't need protection from energy/arrows to last for a long time. You don't necessarily need fly to last more than 30 seconds either. Many utterances are more powerful than spells (JaronK always brings up Magecraft, which allows a +5 bonus on a single craft check, in discussions of low-level casters' abilities. Universal Aptitude is a +5 bonus on ALL skills, which never goes out of fashion.

JaronK likes Magecraft (for no really good reason) because he likes the idea of being able to craft things, and thinks at low levels that is very good out of combat utility. Universal Aptitude constitutes a +0 bonus to all your crafting checks. Your ability to have +5 to things that don't craft is not all that impressive in the crafting things during downtime paradigm.

[Cosi]

"Worlds most contrived challenge"
The truenamer has 10 int and 1 rank in truenaming compared to the warriors 20 str. Yeah, Right.

It's not the numbers, it's having "a Wizard cast mage armor on his familar and now you have to kill it". That's not a thing that comes up in game even .1% of the time, but Karl thinks that a Truenamer being better than a Warrior at it proves some kind of point.

Of course, the Truenamer isn't better than the Warrior at it, because he is capped at a range of 60ft for his utterances and the hawk can move 60ft in a single action. It can just run away, and nothing the Truenamer can do will ever kill it unless he starts in range, wins initiative, then makes his skill check. On the other hand, the Warrior could just use a crossbow.

This is pretty par for the course for Karl. He makes a stupid claim, ignores arguments against it, and rants about how people who disagree with him are idiots. Last time it was him ranting about how shrink item is better than a personal army. Now it's contriving a situation where Truenamers lose to explain why Truenamers win. He's calling someone who read through the whole of the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind out for not reading the book when he forgot that the turd he's polishing has a maximum range.

Consider a more reasonable encounter. Three goblins in a 20x20 room. Against them, alternately a Truenamer and a Barbarian. Truenamer has 16 INT/CHA, Barbarian has 16 STR/CON, everything else is 14 for both.

Truenamer:
+7 on Truespeak checks for 1d6 damage + 1d6 next round
8 HP
16 AC
+2 Initiative

Barbarian:
+4 on attack rolls (+6 raging) for 2d6+4 damage (2d6+7 raging)
15 HP (17 raging)
16 AC (14 raging)
+2 Initiative

I'll assume they both beat all the goblins initiative scores for simplicity's sake.

Truenamer v Goblins
Truenamer gets off a reversed minor word of nurturing with a 50% success rate. This deals 1.75 average damage a round. This kills a 5 HP goblin in 3 rounds. Then his success rate drops to 40% (1.4 damage a round, 4 rounds to kill), then 30% (1.05 damage a round, 5 rounds to kill).

So the Truenamer faces three goblins for 2 rounds, two goblins for 4 rounds, then one goblin for 5 rounds (he acts first). That's 19 goblin-rounds.

The Goblins roll +2 versus the Truenamer's 16 AC, hitting on a 14 or better (35% success rate). That means they get 19 * .35 = 6.65 hits total. 6.65 * 3.5 average damage from their morningstars is 23 damage. The Truenamer dies painfully.

Barbarian v Goblins
Barbarian hits a goblin for 2d6 + 7 damage at +6 to hit, hitting 55% of the time. This kills a goblin instantly if it hits. The Barbarian faces three goblins for one round, two goblins for two rounds, and one goblin for two rounds. That's 8 goblin-rounds.

The Goblins roll +2 versus the Barbarians 14 AC, hitting on 12 or better (45% success rate). That means they deal 8 * .45 * 3.5 = 12 damage. The Barbarian survives handily.


Universal aptitude, archer's eye, hidden truth, speed of the zephyr, temporal twist, spell rebirth, sensory focus, mystic rampart, rebuild item, transmute weapon.

universal aptitude would be cool, except it requires you to give up on the prospect of having things to do in combat at first level.

archer's eye is an unimpressive defensive buff stapled to an offensive buff that doesn't actually do anything. protection from arrows is famous because its one of the first "make mundanes cry" spells, not because it's something people who can cast glitterdust ever cared about.

hidden truth is a bonus to Knowledge checks. It's a substantially worse version of guidance of the avatar, a spell that Clerics just get for free.

speed of the zephyr gives you a movement speed buff, the ability to walk on water, and a worse version of spider climb. The only time you'd compare it to spider climb is if you were lamenting how much worse it is than spider climb because it lasts like 1/60 the time (100 rounds/level * 3rd level = 300 rounds, this is 5).

temporal twist lets you give an ally an extra attack, or (on a save) daze someone for one round. The extra attack thing looks good, but then you realize that you're spending limited resources to let someone act more, which you could have achieved by just being that class. The daze would be cool, but save + skill check is terrible.

spell rebirth auto-dispels things. I would rather have the chance to dispel more things. I guess this is cool if there are a bunch of ambient magical effects that aren't for some reason immune to dispelling and are at a very high caster level.

sensory focus is like true seeing, except you have to know when you're facing an illusion, and if you know that you just saved successfully and probably don't care. It lasts one round.

mystic rampart is like casting shield, except I'm supposed to pretend I care at 18th level (oh and it grants a little DR).

rebuild item doesn't do the thing you say it does. It's only real utility is making sundering less terrible.

transmute weapon allows your 15th level character to change a weapon's material for five rounds. And this is supposed to compare to polymorph any object or greater planar binding? I wouldn't blow a 2nd level spell slot on that.

EDIT: Changed goblin math mid way through working the numbers, forgot to change everything. Final total damage was still correct.

[Jormengand]

"One of each CR 4 trap" is not CR 5, it's about CR eleven, and protection from arrows is useful against enemies who will do 1 point of damage per attack on average when you have that DR. I'm not going to spend time running through the other mistakes made in the running of the "Same game test" which checks to see whether you can defeat, uhm, combat encounters and traps, solo, as a knowledgeable scholar-type support mage, which is already an utterly bloody dumb endeavor in the first instance and I don't see why we're talking about it in a game where the point is that you're a party of adventurers (I too run characters who would rather be in a team doing skills while doing a kick-in-the-door solo game). I will however point out that some of the encounters can be solved by standing on something with speed of the zephyr and shooting stuff (or actually rolling the cross-class check to disarm most of those traps with a +13 bonus assuming 1 rank, 1 from recitation, 5 from utterance, 4 from int and 2 because face it, you're taking the race which gives +2 to all int and dex rolls because why wouldn't you. Masterwork thieves tools costing the square root of sod-all don't hurt).

(Incidentally, I don't know why Cosi cares how long speed of the zephyr lasts, assuming you're not actually going to be climbing for an entire combat/want to scale anything which is more than 1000 feet tall, and climbing faster is generally better than climbing longer. Oh, and it's interesting you mention walking on water because GUESS WHICH LEVEL SPELL WATER WALK IS. HINT: IT ISN'T SECOND. Also, some attacks take more than a standardswift action and so could not necessarily have been made "By being that class" and the thing that rebuild item does - returning an item to its normal undamaged state - is literally in the description of rebuild item. Guidance of the avatar - and also glibness which has been mentioned previously - is not a second-level spell. It is a third-level spell. First-level spells are generally less effective in combat at first level than just using a crossbow, whether you're a wizard or a truenamer, so I'd take the ability to do practically anything out of combat over that. Also, I don't know why we're comparing deliberately dumb optimisation for the numbers. Oh, and you just ignored the fact that reversed mystic rampart, uh, EXISTS).

Come on guys, you're doing things like complaining that the truenamer can't solo encounters of double their CR while totally unoptimised. You're clearly, clearly grasping at straws here.

[Cosi]

I'm not going to spend time running through the other mistakes made in the running of the "Same game test" which checks to see whether you can defeat, uhm, combat encounters and traps, solo, as a knowledgeable scholar-type support mage,

As Beheld already pointed out, the Truenamer is not a "support mage", it is a crappy mage. Your combat options suck, but that's not because your support options are good. It's because you suck. If you really care, run it back with two third level characters. A Truenamer, and somone getting his "support".


(Incidentally, I don't know why Cosi cares how long speed of the zephyr lasts, assuming you're not actually going to be climbing for an entire combat/want to scale anything which is more than 1000 feet tall, and climbing faster is generally better than climbing longer.

Wait, what is the use case for spider climb that isn't "use it for an entire combat to avoid ground-bound enemies" or "climb things that are really tall". Also, speed of the zephyr isn't better against things less than 1000ft tall, it's better than things less than 60ft tall because you have to start and end on level ground.


Oh, and it's interesting you mention walking on water because GUESS WHICH LEVEL SPELL WATER WALK IS. HINT: IT ISN'T SECOND.

I mean, it's 3rd level, so this is not exactly a revolution. Also, if you compare the bodies of water that can be crossed with spider climb's 10 minutes/level of climbing (for example, ones that are underground) to the ones that can be crossed with 5 rounds of water walking, the Truenamer looks pretty bad. Oh, and walking on water isn't really much better than swimming, and swim is a 2nd level spell with 10 minutes/level duration.


the thing that rebuild item does - returning an item to its normal undamaged state - is literally in the description of rebuild item.


With this utterance, you instantly restore an item destroyed
within the last round to its normal, undamaged state. Essentially,
by reminding the item of its truename, you unmake
its destruction. Magic items affected by this power retain all
their magical properties, unlike items restored with a make
whole spell. The reconstituted item has full hit points.
This utterance has no effect on any item that has been
destroyed for more than 1 round. You cannot restore a
destroyed artifact with this utterance.

The "normal, undamaged state" of a wand that was broken when it had no charges left is a wand that has no charges left. Losing charges is not a form of damage.


Guidance of the avatar - and also glibness which has been mentioned previously - is not a second-level spell. It is a third-level spell.

Now you're just lying. (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)


First-level spells are generally less effective in combat at first level than just using a crossbow, whether you're a wizard or a truenamer, so I'd take the ability to do practically anything out of combat over that.

You think color spray is less effective than a crossbow? No wonder you think the Truenamer is good, you don't understand how the game works.


Oh, and you just ignored the fact that reversed mystic rampart, uh, EXISTS).

Okay so the entire paragraph was a parenthetical. Also, you smushed all your responses to separate lines together because lolgishgallop. Cool.

Yes, I skipped "-5 to AC" because who cares! This is the realm of rocket launcher tag. Your actions are supposed to take people out of the fight, not make characters who already didn't miss anything miss things less.

[Beheld]

"One of each CR 4 trap" is not CR 5, it's about CR eleven, and protection from arrows is useful against enemies who will do 1 point of damage per attack on average when you have that DR.

1) A hallways of an arbitrarily high number of CR 4 traps is the test. It's in fact, not CR 11, for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it is a series of "CR 4" traps discounted to a lower EL because you know they are there. Just like when a PC fights one CR 1 enemy, and later on that day faces a different CR 1 enemy, they are not, in fact, facing a CR 3 enemy.

2) Truenamers do not in fact know all utterances on their list, and the sample prepared one does not have the ability to grant itself protection against arrows.


support mage

I'm going to reiterate my point that the Truenamer is not a support mage. It's a really bad class that is so bad that providing extremely minor benefits (like 1/30 of a haste spell at the level people are casting haste or empowering someone else's spell, when they could be casting Cone of Cold) is more impressive than what the Truenamer himself could do only because the Truenamer is so much worse than real characters.


I will however point out that some of the encounters can be solved by standing on something with speed of the zephyr and shooting stuff

Not really. I mean, I know you are avoiding specifics, because then you could be shown to be wrong, but there are four types of encounters:

1) Thing(s) in a room protecting the room: Fire Elemental, Animated Object, Basilisk, (Howler/Allip) and (Cleric + Zombies).
2) Things that have longer range than you: Centaurs, Manticore.
3) Things that don't care if you try to kite them because they track you from the Ethereal if you are faster (Even though you aren't): Phase Spider.
4) Things that you can at least reduce the damage by kiting: Grimlock Ambush.


Oh, and it's interesting you mention walking on water because GUESS WHICH LEVEL SPELL WATER WALK IS. HINT: IT ISN'T SECOND.

Being able to walk on water for 500ft and then drown is often times less impressive than being able to walk around for minutes over larger distances. You can sprint across a river like one of those lizards, but there is a reason people scoff at one round flight like swift fly as utter garbage and it applies to short duration water walk too.


the thing that rebuild item does - returning an item to its normal undamaged state - is literally in the description of rebuild item.

The normal undamaged state of an expended wand is expended. You can't create charges, no one cares if you can fix a stick you broke.


First-level spells are generally less effective in combat at first level than just using a crossbow

.................................................. ..................... Funny joke.


Oh, and you just ignored the fact that reversed mystic rampart, uh, EXISTS).

Probably because -5 to saves is not an 18th level character ability. Wholly ****. -5 to saves? I'll totally use that literally never!

[Karl Aegis]

You aren't even arguing against my claim. You're claiming my claim is that there was a wizard (there wasn't) and the objective was to kill the hawk (it wasn't). It was to use an ability on it. Now you're claiming the warrior has a distinct advantage against the truenamer because they can use the exact same weapon with the exact same success rate: they hit on natural 20 only. Which they can't even do because you claim the hawk isn't even there. Your failure to comprehend what you are reading is so bad you don't even know what is going on.

Your truenamer would actually deal with these goblins better if they were throwing clubs. It's like you don't even know how to play the game. 1d6 with no bonus damage isn't good. You have clubs that deal 1d6+2 available. Use them. Goblins don't even come in groups of 3 in 20x20 rooms. They are in groups of 4-9 minimum and you encounter them on plains. Actually read what you are looking at before trying to claim someone else is wrong. You're wrong.

[Cosi]

You aren't even arguing against my claim. You're claiming my claim is that there was a wizard (there wasn't) and the objective was to kill the hawk (it wasn't). It was to use an ability on it.

Oh, so the whole thing was even more pointlessly stupid. Like, what does "you can use abilities on things" even prove? That you have abilities? Congratulations on rising to the same standard as the Commoner of having literally anything written in your class description. Enjoy Tier Six.


Now you're claiming the warrior has a distinct advantage against the truenamer because they can use the exact same weapon with the exact same success rate: they hit on natural 20 only. Which they can't even do because you claim the hawk isn't even there. Your failure to comprehend what you are reading is so bad you don't even know what is going on.

Well, except the Warrior has a point of BAB and the Truenamer doesn't. Also, the hawk is merely "running away", not "gone". In a round it clears utterance range, but not crossbow (or at least move and crossbow) range.


Your truenamer would actually deal with these goblins better if they were throwing clubs.

If it's a better plan to use something your class gives you no bonuses on, your class sucks. You are proving my point

[Karl Aegis]

That single point of BAB didn't increase your chances of succeeding.

[Lans]

The normal undamaged state of an expended wand is expended. You can't create charges, no one cares if you can fix a stick you broke.


The actual use involves variant potions from complete arcane that involved something like breaking blocks or cutting knots to activate its effect

Cosi;21775370]


inertia surge -- 1 round freedom of movement/no movement. The defensive part is okay but only effects magical restrictions for some reason. The offensive part is terrible. What even is the use case for a 1 round movement debuff? I guess if you had it at will you could kite people with no ranged attacks? Except not really, on account of you have to spend your actions to do it.

If you are part of a party using this effect on a melee monster can let the party kill it with out a threat to them.



greater speed of the zephyr -- single target haste/single target slow. As an AoE slow wasn't amazing. This is single target.

It doesn't give a save makes it at least a toss up vs slow



mystic rampart -- +5 AC, DR 5/-/-5 AC. No save, but AC debuffs are pretty bad at this level since people mostly don't miss


Giving+- 5 to saves is pretty significant

[Cosi]

Quotes don't show up when replying on this board, so please put your responses outside quote tags.


The actual use involves variant potions from complete arcane that involved something like breaking blocks or cutting knots to activate its effect

That seems iffy. You have to convince your DM to use that particular potion variant. Then you have to convince them that the act of breaking to expend them produces an item that is still magic but broken, rather than broken and non-magic. Even then, all you get is unlimited potions, which has literally nothing to do with UMD because you don't UMD potions.


If you are part of a party using this effect on a melee monster can let the party kill it with out a threat to them.

Well, there are a lot of ifs there.

You have to be in an area where you can maneuver.

You have to be targeting a monster the party couldn't kite anyway.

The party has to kill it before you stop succeeding.


It doesn't give a save makes it at least a toss up vs slow

Not really, it just makes it compare to single target debuffs instead of AoE debuffs.


Giving+- 5 to saves is pretty significant

I missed the saves thing, but I don't think it matters.

Consider the alternative: having another caster.

The chance of hitting someone with a save-or-die is (1 - <chance of a successful save>^2) with two casters. With a caster and a Truenamer it's (1 - <chance of a successful save>) + .25. At a .5 chance of succeeding, you hit parity. This is an 18th level ability, so let's look at a CR 18 monster: the Nightcrawler. It's rocking +10 REF (assuming a max level slot, any caster is better than 50%), +12 FORT (you need 20 INT to get a better than 50% success rate here), and +23 WILL (this is potentially harder to pull off, but with 30 INT you only need five points of bonuses, and there are two worse saves).

In short, you're almost certainly better off relying on iterative probability and bringing a second caster. The second caster is also better because you can choose complimentary spells, and you don't have to fire off both spells in the first works. Also, it's a real character and not a Truenamer.

[Troacctid]

> Mage has a spell list with almost exclusively utility and support spells
> Mage is not a support mage

I have to say I am not following this logic.

[Lans]

Quotes don't show up when replying on this board, so please put your responses outside quote tags.



That seems iffy. You have to convince your DM to use that particular potion variant. Then you have to convince them that the act of breaking to expend them produces an item that is still magic but broken, rather than broken and non-magic. Even then, all you get is unlimited potions, which has literally nothing to do with UMD because you don't UMD potions. Its not an exact match to what they said, but its the closest thing I could come up with. Unless their is an obscure magic item that matches better




Well, there are a lot of ifs there.

You have to be in an area where you can maneuver.

You have to be targeting a monster the party couldn't kite anyway.

The party has to kill it before you stop succeeding.

I disagree with the last one, if you reduce the damage that would otherwise be done by more than a third thats an ok contribution in my book.




Not really, it just makes it compare to single target debuffs instead of AoE debuffs.




I missed the saves thing, but I don't think it matters.

Consider the alternative: having another caster.


Well, if your comparing truenamers to casters obviously they are going to come up short. Unless, its an adept, or magewright. Maybe hexblade,

I think the truenamers are a low tier 4, at the lowest levels of optimization they can bring some minor out of combat utility, and healing and knocking people down. Ensuring that the party enters battle at full hp or that they get status effects removed after combat. In order for them to be tier 3 they basically need to be PaOed into a gibbering mouther

I think they have a brighter, optimization bar. It takes a bit of game knowledge to know what a wizards spell DC needs to be to have a reasonable chance of success, or what a trip check needs to be to be viable. I had a 10 strength rogue dip barbarian and pick up improved trip at level 8sih. For truespeak checks you know what it is for about what your facing. If you want a 0% chance of failure for monsters whos CR is Level+4, you know what number you need and can dumpster dive for every little bonus

[Jormengand]

> Mage has a spell list with almost exclusively utility and support spells
> Mage is not a support mage

I have to say I am not following this logic.

I'm not following "Archers cease to exist if they stand on things that melee people can't reach" or "The normal state of a wand is uncharged" either, not to mention "A CR 11 encounter is not CR 11 if it takes place in a hallway". It's almost as though people arguing against us didn't actually have any logic.

[Beheld]

I'm not following "Archers cease to exist if they stand on things that melee people can't reach"

And here we have the Truename apologist in their native habitat, being intentionally vague to avoid allowing other people to point out that in fact, the Truenamer is incapable of doing this.


or "The normal state of a wand is uncharged"

And here the Truenamer apologists lies about what the spell says because what the spell actually says proves them wrong.


either, not to mention "A CR 11 encounter is not CR 11 if it takes place in a hallway". It's almost as though people arguing against us didn't actually have any logic.

And here the Truenamer apologist claims that level 1 characters that fight 13 encounters and then level up secretly didn't fight 13 CR 1 enemies, they actually killed a CR 8 "encounter"! (Also confuses CR and EL, and doesn't understand how situational EL modifiers work).

[Jormengand]

I mean if you actually read the part where truenamers can run up walls, the part where they can restore items to their normal undamaged state, and the part where solving multiple traps in a single encounter with no chance to take rests in between is different from taking 13 CR 1 encounters OVER MULTIPLE DAYS (also, technically, yes, "CR" and "EL" are different things, but you know exactly what I mean when I use them interchangeably so I don't see why you're arguing the point), then I guess you get a better opinion of truenamers?

[Pleh]

I'm trying to find a point someone is making that I can follow, but it feels an awful lot like people are talking past each other reaching for an opportunity to make an Ad Hominem jab at people they don't like.

Is there still time for us to clear out the clutter? I think we can try to redirect the conversation a bit here. Our attempts to generate examples and tests are getting sidetracked on criticism of the testing method. Maybe there's a test we can devise together that we can agree will give us some better answers.

The first argument seemed to be that Truespeak skill DCs make the class ineffective.
Jormengand pointed out that most people don't bother playing low-OP truenamers and most actually played Truenamers are probably somewhere around T3.
Troacctid made a clear and concise argument that even low OP Truenamers have a reasonable chance of making their DCs.

I feel like somewhere around there we lost track of what we were talking about because the challengers started asking for some evidence that Utterances are powerful enough to compensate for their drawbacks. Then we started firing off tests that no one can agree are effective tests, we stopped making arguments, and we started making meaningless jabs at each other.

Explain your position with more clarity. I really don't get much about what anyone is trying to say here anymore (except for repeating, "No, YOU'RE stupid!").

No, I'm stupid. So explain it to me clearly.

How do we compare Utterances with their level-equivalent counterparts from other classes?

Same Game Tests seem ill suited here, since Truenamer clearly does not fair well in solo encounters (nor was it designed to do so).

But what tests are a better measurement? Remember we can't just pick tests that demonstrate how good a Truenamer can be. It has to be a test that we can put a control class through to compare it with.

People keep saying Truenamers are support and utility casters, but then they openly admit they can't keep up with other support and utility casters (unless I'm wrong about what people were trying to say).

For me, I think we need a Truenamer/Bard comparison. I don't think most anyone wants to rate Truenamer any higher than Bard, and Bard is not only a Support/Utility caster, but it also is the poster child for T3.

Does Truenamer offer the same level of caster support as a bard? How do we set up a scenario to compare their numbers?

[Cosi]

I disagree with the last one, if you reduce the damage that would otherwise be done by more than a third thats an ok contribution in my book.

Yeah, but that's probably pretty hard to do. Truespeak DCs are non-trivial, and most damage dealers are optimized for melee.


Well, if your comparing truenamers to casters obviously they are going to come up short. Unless, its an adept, or magewright. Maybe hexblade,

Casters are the people who have abilities (you care about) that require saving throws. If the ability to give someone a -5 penalty to saves matters, it matters in the context of a caster,


I think the truenamers are a low tier 4, at the lowest levels of optimization they can bring some minor out of combat utility, and healing and knocking people down. Ensuring that the party enters battle at full hp or that they get status effects removed after combat.

You aren't bringing much non-combat utility, and the fact that you have basically zero combat utility dampens things somewhat. If the players take serious damage in most encounters, the Truenamer doesn't seem likely to be able to cover all of it (particularly seeing as their damage and healing come from the same ability). If someone wants to run some numbers, feel free to prove me wrong.


I'm not following "Archers cease to exist if they stand on things that melee people can't reach"

I'm not sure what this means. Are you following the thing where normal archer's eye doesn't do anything because it removes the penalties from a status that grants no penalties?


"The normal state of a wand is uncharged"

The normal state of an uncharged wand is uncharged. If someone casts mage's disjunction on a Holy Avenger (stripping it of its magical abilities), then sunders it, would rebuild item give you a Holy Avenger?


Jormengand pointed out that most people don't bother playing low-OP truenamers and most actually played Truenamers are probably somewhere around T3.

If you accept this argument, you have to put Beguilers in Tier Two, because most Beguilers that people play are actually Tier Two. Jormengand doesn't accept that argument, so they are clearly being disingenuous in the service of a class they personally think is cool. This is made more obvious by them blatantly lying about what level other class's abilities are.


Troacctid made a clear and concise argument that even low OP Truenamers have a reasonable chance of making their DCs.

This is not true. Troacctid presented a chart that indicates that you have a at best a 75% chance of using your abilities the first time each day you try to use them. That is not a reasonable chance, particularly because (contra Jormengand's unsubstantiated assertions), many of your abilities do allow saves.


How do we compare Utterances with their level-equivalent counterparts from other classes?

You could just look at them. I did a run through of the whole Lexicon of the Evolving Mind to see which ones are good. They mostly suck pretty badly.


Same Game Tests seem ill suited here, since Truenamer clearly does not fair well in solo encounters (nor was it designed to do so).

Again, this seems disingenuous. I don't think there's anything in the Truenamer's description to indicate it's a support class (Jormengand's assertions to the contrary non-withstanding), and the far better assumption is simply that it's a bad class. Even if we accept it's really a support class, we could simply run a 3rd level Truenamer and another 3rd level character through the test.

[Beheld]

Explain your position with more clarity. I really don't get much about what anyone is trying to say here anymore (except for repeating, "No, YOU'RE stupid!").

1) The SGT is not badly suited. It's just that it makes the True Namer look as bad as it is, so the True Namer apologist hates it. The True Namer is "better" suited to solo than a lot of classes, in that it provides less benefit to the party than those other classes. It's just that the Truenamer is so bad that +2 CL for a Warmage at the cost of a standard action or "empowering a warmage's spell as a standard action" (with a chance of failure!) even though it is pathetic and would never be viewed as equally contributing to a combat as one of the 4 members, is still better than what the Truenamer can do when he's not piggy backing on the back of real characters, because the Truenamer is so much worse than a real character.

2) The Truenamer is really bad. The fail chance is not nothing even with pretty significant optimization, and utterances that don't offer saves are really bad compared to what any real character is doing. The ones that do offer saves are pretty okay, but then you are literally a Dual casting stat Wizard in Armor who has a failure chance on your spells and a lower save DC.


How do we compare Utterances with their level-equivalent counterparts from other classes?

By comparing what they do. The Truenamer can spend a standard action to have an 85% chance of giving his ally one attack. The Beguiler can cast Haste and give all his allies 5 extra attacks.

The Truenamer can allow one person to run up one wall provided the wall has a nice platform at the top, and the wall is low enough for them to run up in one round. The people who prepare Spider Climb give people minutes of this, and unlike Zephyr, they let people actually stand on ceilings and stuff and shoot down with a bow at say, Howlers that can't reach them.

The Truenamer grants True Seeing for one round when you know you need it at a standard action. See invis lasts hours.

The Truenamer gets to do warlock eldritch blast damage, but spend every other round doing something super minor like give protection from arrows for one round, or immobilize an enemy, or give 1/20th of haste spell out. But he also has uses per day limit on his eldritch blast damage and a failure chance on his every other round interventions.


we could simply run a 3rd level Truenamer and another 3rd level character through the test.

Feel like we should also just run the level 3 barbarian or whatever through it solo too, so we can see how pathetically dismal the True namer's contribution of "buffing" him with an 85% chance of an extra attack actually is.


I mean if you actually read the part where truenamers can run up walls, the part where they can restore items to their normal undamaged state, and the part where solving multiple traps in a single encounter with no chance to take rests in between is different from taking 13 CR 1 encounters OVER MULTIPLE DAYS (also, technically, yes, "CR" and "EL" are different things, but you know exactly what I mean when I use them interchangeably so I don't see why you're arguing the point), then I guess you get a better opinion of truenamers?

1) The ability to run up a wall and fall on your ass is meaningless if you are in a room, which all of the encounters except the Phase Spider/Grimlocks/Centaur Archers/Manticore. Manticore is a field, and it has range and flying. Grimlocks are an ambush, and are a "win" for the truenamer (in that he will almost certainly win every time he sees the ambush, (almost never) and win maybe half the time that he doesn't see the ambush). The Phase Spider can go ethereal and walk up as high as it wants before rephasing right next to the true namer on the top of the 60ft cliff that happens to be nearby. And the Centaur Archers would love for you to spend rounds not using your utterances so you can set up an archery duel where you shoot a crossbow bolt every round.

It's really not my fault that the Truenamer loses to every single "there is something in a room" encounter and also everything with ranged attacks.

2) Look, I understand why you had to lie about the wording in your last post, and omit "undamaged" because obviously the undamaged state of an expended wand that you broke in half is expended. But no need to keep digging. You can just refuse to address it like everything else you are wrong about. But just to be clear, the fact that you think you have to break the wand over your knee before you can use the utterance in the first place is literal proof positive that even you acknowledge that "not having full charges" is not damage that makes it a target, so therefore "not having full charges" is not an inherent part of it's undamaged state.

3) The Truenamer did have chance to rest in between, that was literally the point of him sitting there and healing and taxing 20 on his truespeak checks to heal as much as possible. That's what makes them a collection of different low EL encounters, not a single high EL encounter.

[Jormengand]

People keep saying Truenamers are support and utility casters, but then they openly admit they can't keep up with other support and utility casters (unless I'm wrong about what people were trying to say).

For me, I think we need a Truenamer/Bard comparison. I don't think most anyone wants to rate Truenamer any higher than Bard, and Bard is not only a Support/Utility caster, but it also is the poster child for T3.

Does Truenamer offer the same level of caster support as a bard? How do we set up a scenario to compare their numbers?

The main support things that the truenamer boast include a stronger version of inspire competence, some caster level boosts, and various free metamagics, as well as the pretend-you're-a-support-cleric stuff that they almost invariably get late, but unlike the vast majority of classes (pretty much any which aren't divine casters, for a start) do actually get.

The truenamer also works as a skillmonkey, able to - with a single cross-class rank - at least have a good go at a variety of different skills. Most of the boosts they can hand out are transferrable, hence the support thing they have going on - a rogue and a truenamer have a better chance of disabling a device than the truenamer or rogue do individually. They also know everything about everything relatively trivially because of the +15 they get from utterances on the DC 30 check to know literally anything which isn't about an epic creature.

Other buffs they offer include flight and protection from arrows and energy. This isn't news to the T1-2 casters, but is news to, oh, nearly any other class. Freedom of movement at level 1 is pretty dope, but you're not actually taking that at that level because it's not as good as universal aptitude, which is a really great utterance and there's a reason I'm going on about it as much as I do. You'll probably take inertia surge at level 2 instead. Oh, and you get solid fog on time, so yay for battlefield control. And archer's eye allows you to murderise anything that's in the solid fog, because that's not at all dumb.

The bard, on the other hand... depends on OP level, sources, and whether you're abusing the words of creation horribly (which is hilariously ironic when you're trying to upstage a truenamer). If we go for the "Pick up class and play class" style that we're apparently using for the truenamer, you're sporting things like the exceptionally weak inspire courage (If you want a +4/+4 attack/damage by level 20, the truenamer can pick up greater knight's puissance - one of the most awful 6th-level utterances - for +5/+5 instead), inspire courage (truenamer can just remove fear, though no-where near on time), inspire confidence (worse than universal aptitude), suggestion (truenamer doesn't get, though they get dominate monster later), inspire greatness (truenamer can indirectly replicate similar abilities), song of freedom (truenamer gets equivalent), and inspire heroics (truenamer's mystic rampart is similar). You also get a decent list of actual spells, many of which the truenamer doesn't get, few of which upstage them too much. Mostly, the truenamer lacks a lot of your illusions and summoning, and massively upstages you when healing, mage-cheerleading, or the majority of skills are needed.

[Karl Aegis]

How the hell is beguiler in this thread? The was in the other thread literally months ago. At this point nobody gives a damn about the class. Cast haste? The corresponding spell is Snake's Swiftness, a second level Sorcerer spell. They do NOT get to cast Snake's Swiftness as a spell-like ability as many times as a Truenamer can.

So what can you do at level 10? Three times per day you can use an Empower Spell-like Ability Mortalbane Reverse Energy Negation to deal 6d6 damage to a target every round for 5 rounds. You can learn the magical properties of any non-artifact item at will. You can give armor varying amounts of the Fortification enchantment. You can cause a flier with average or lower maneuverability (hello, dragons!) to fail to maintain it's minimum forward speed for a round (or two with extend) or just generally disallow use of the Flyby Attack feat (the good one). You can make a knowledge check to determine this particular creature's exact grievance with you while determining it's family line for several generations. Fly around. See invisible things. All kinds of really good things. Create a really big cloud (pretty much the entirety of what the beguiler has over the bard). Silence that guy. Daze that guy for 6 rounds (sure, Psion can daze for three days by now, but you aren't in their tier).

Your saves aren't even that bad. With 14 charisma (+2) you keep up with the good saves of enemies just by taking truenamer levels. Enemies with good saves all around or either outsiders which don't have lots of hit dice per CR or dragons which you generally should not be anywhere close to because sorcerers with actually good hit point totals should not be messed with. Or they are the bad dragons like wyverns and you can reverse inertia surge them to death or they are wyvern mages and uh, generally have to spam all your abilties at once just to survive.

[Cosi]

They also know everything about everything relatively trivially because of the +15 they get from utterances on the DC 30 check to know literally anything which isn't about an epic creature.

That's not how knowledge works. You learn the answer to a "really tough question" by making a DC 30 check. You learn additional things for each five points you beat that check by.


And archer's eye allows you to murderise anything that's in the solid fog, because that's not at all dumb.

No it doesn't. Regular archer's eye does exactly nothing. Here is the text for normal archer's eye:


Your target’s ranged attacks ignore penalties for concealment
because her aim sharpens to focus on the unconcealed parts
of her foe.

It specifically and explicitly says "penalties". Here is the SRD entry on concealment. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) Notice that it talks about the target having a miss chance, or you not being able to attack them, but does not use the term "penalty". This means there is nothing for archer's eye to let you ignore.

So that makes this, the level of guidance of the avatar, and rebuild item that you are flat wrong about. I care about your opinion of this class why?


How the hell is beguiler in this thread? The was in the other thread literally months ago. At this point nobody gives a damn about the class.

The reason we are talking about the Beguiler is because the Beguiler is Tier Two if optimized, but put in Tier Three because people didn't assume optimization. Now people are asking us to assume optimization to put the Truenamer in Tier Three. The exact same people in fact who voted Beguiler for Tier Three on the basis that you have to optimize it to reach Tier Two.

So I ask Jormengand again, were you wrong then, or are you wrong now?


So what can you do at level 10? Three times per day you can use an Empower Spell-like Ability Mortalbane Reverse Energy Negation to deal 6d6 damage to a target every round for 5 rounds.

Oh my god, you can deal almost as much damage as a Warlock who uses literally none of those abilities can do all day. I care why?


Create a really big cloud (pretty much the entirety of what the beguiler has over the bard).

Other than casting that is good, better skills (because it's an INT caster), and the best spell knowledge mechanic in the game (which apparently does not count as a class feature because "no actual reason").

[Karl Aegis]

"We" meaning you. You have to optimize to get to tier 3. Your optimization is, objectively speaking, bad. 95% of it is covered by the multiclass note in the original tier thread. Your formatting is also terrible. At its best it's rude, at its worst it is trolling. Learn to be a respectable person.

We're not talking about the beguiler. Just in case you haven't noticed.

[Mehangel]

"We" meaning you. You have to optimize to get to tier 3. Your optimization is, objectively speaking, bad. 95% of it is covered by the multiclass note in the original tier thread. Your formatting is also terrible. At its best it's rude, at its worst it is trolling. Learn to be a respectable person.

Cosi isn't alone in referencing the Beguiler being classified as Tier 3, despite commonly optimized into Tier 2.


We're not talking about the beguiler. Just in case you haven't noticed.

I agree that the discussion we are having is no longer about the beguiler, but I do believe it is relevant to tier other classes by the same criteria that we have used in the past (hence bringing up the beguiler).

[Cosi]

"We" meaning you. You have to optimize to get to tier 3. Your optimization is, objectively speaking, bad. 95% of it is covered by the multiclass note in the original tier thread. Your formatting is also terrible. At its best it's rude, at its worst it is trolling. Learn to be a respectable person.

We're not talking about the beguiler. Just in case you haven't noticed.

Put up or shut up.

Write up a Truenamer you think is Tier Three.

Write up a Sorcerer you think is Tier Two.

Then we can see if it takes less effort to get a Beguiler to Tier Two than it takes to get a Truenamer to Tier Three.

Otherwise, stop talking, because you clearly have nothing useful to say.

[Karl Aegis]

Your formatting is also terrible. At its best it's rude, at its worst it is trolling. Learn to be a respectable person.

We've been using the same criteria for all classes the entire thread. Insisting this one class deserves special treatment for absolutely no reason is not productive. Comparing classes to other classes is terrible. We aren't doing that here. The only case for it in the original tier thread (which we are still following here) is in the case of the superior mirror. Sorcerer is in tier 2 because Wizard is better. Factotum is in tier 3 because Rogue is worse. Expert is in tier 5 because rogue is better. It is only relevant in the case of the superior mirror.

Are you saying the truenamer is better off taking 5-7 instances of Arcane Disciple, splitting it's casting stats even more for absolutely no benefit (while also leveraging Cleric class features which are covered by the Cleric's tier)?

[Cosi]

Put up or shut up Karl. If the Truenamer needs more optimization to hit Tier Three than the Beguiler needs to hit Tier Two, either you voted wrong then or you're voting wrong now. This is not a complicated question.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Truenamer isn't bad because it can't hit its checks (though that's irritating), it's bad because it just... doesn't have a lot of strong effects. At its best, it's Warlock-y; minor blasting and de/buffing ability with one or two good tricks still hanging around.


The truenamer also works as a skillmonkey, able to - with a single cross-class rank - at least have a good go at a variety of different skills. Most of the boosts they can hand out are transferrable, hence the support thing they have going on - a rogue and a truenamer have a better chance of disabling a device than the truenamer or rogue do individually. They also know everything about everything relatively trivially because of the +15 they get from utterances on the DC 30 check to know literally anything which isn't about an epic creature.
+5 to skills is a nice bonus to be sure, especially at low levels. It trails off over time. Knowledge checks aren't Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm), so I'm not sure how you expect to know "literally everything." You can identify monsters easily, which is RAW, and answer "tough questions," which is DM-dependent but will almost certainly not "literally everything." Just like we have to assume reasonably optimization, we have to assume reasonable GMs. I mean, they're both great abilities, don't get me wrong, they're head and shoulders above what most casters get at low-levels... but they're still ultimately low-level abilities.


Other buffs they offer include flight and protection from arrows and energy.
At about a tenth and a... 6-hundreth of the duration, respectively? The issue with the Truenamer as a buff-class is that it lacks long-duration buffs, meaning you kind of have to use up actions to apply them mid-combat.


This isn't news to the T1-2 casters, but is news to, oh, nearly any other class. Freedom of movement at level 1 is pretty dope, but you're not actually taking that at that level because it's not as good as universal aptitude, which is a really great utterance and there's a reason I'm going on about it as much as I do. You'll probably take inertia surge at level 2 instead. Oh, and you get solid fog on time, so yay for battlefield control. And archer's eye allows you to murderise anything that's in the solid fog, because that's not at all dumb.
Solid Fog is a great trick, especially if your GM accepts that Archer's Eye works for total concealment (not guaranteed, because Truenamer stuff is painfully vague in a lot of places).


The bard, on the other hand... depends on OP level, sources, and whether you're abusing the words of creation horribly (which is hilariously ironic when you're trying to upstage a truenamer).
The Truenamer gets more reliable with optimization, but they don't really get more powerful, at least until Quicken Utterance comes online. I know I've been assuming you've done reasonable optimization and gotten a high Int, amulet, Paragnostic Assemble, a feat/race choice or two... Their "power" tends to be through a lot of iffy-to-unacceptable RAW readings, like reusing consumable magic items.


If we go for the "Pick up class and play class" style that we're apparently using for the truenamer, you're sporting things like the exceptionally weak inspire courage (If you want a +4/+4 attack/damage by level 20, the truenamer can pick up greater knight's puissance - one of the most awful 6th-level utterances - for +5/+5 instead), inspire courage (truenamer can just remove fear, though no-where near on time), inspire confidence (worse than universal aptitude), suggestion (truenamer doesn't get, though they get dominate monster later), inspire greatness (truenamer can indirectly replicate similar abilities), song of freedom (truenamer gets equivalent), and inspire heroics (truenamer's mystic rampart is similar). You also get a decent list of actual spells, many of which the truenamer doesn't get, few of which upstage them too much. Mostly, the truenamer lacks a lot of your illusions and summoning, and massively upstages you when healing, mage-cheerleading, or the majority of skills are needed.
Bardic Music affects the whole party, though. Reasonable optimization gives you a +3-+4 Inspire Courage bonus by early-mid levels easily enough; there are plenty of different things that boost it. And if you want to heal, Healing Hymn lets you pop Cure Light Wounds spells that do d8+lv+~8. But it doesn't matter that much, because you'd rather use a magic item to heal than consumable items, and you're not going to have Healing Hymn active in combat for emergencies... but then again, Fast Healing isn't going to help you much in an emergency either. I built a mid-op, mid-level Truenamer to examine things; I'd much, much rather have had the Bard.


Put up or shut up Karl. If the Truenamer needs more optimization to hit Tier Three than the Beguiler needs to hit Tier Two, either you voted wrong then or you're voting wrong now. This is not a complicated question.
C'mon, dude. You are being exceptionally rude, and going back to the Beguiler argument isn't helping convince anyone. Argue based on what Utterances do or don't do.

[Cosi]

The Truenamer isn't bad because it can't hit its checks (though that's irritating), it's bad because it just... doesn't have a lot of strong effects. At its best, it's Warlock-y; minor blasting and de/buffing ability with one or two good tricks still hanging around.

It doesn't have to be bad for only one reason. It's bad because you have to optimize to use your abilities, and then when you do use them, they suck.


Solid Fog is a great trick, especially if your GM accepts that Archer's Eye works for total concealment (not guaranteed, because Truenamer stuff is painfully vague in a lot of places).

There's nothing to accept. archer's eye says it negates "penalties". Penalties are negative modifiers to checks. Concealment imposes no penalties, it just makes you miss people.


C'mon, dude. You are being exceptionally rude, and going back to the Beguiler argument isn't helping convince anyone. Argue based on what Utterances do or don't do.

Go re-read Karl's posts. They're nothing but condescension, insults, and goalpost moving. I've just stopped engaging with him until he presents an argument for his position (namely, a Truenamer that is Tier Three). Calling me rude is saying that you care more about using the phrase "put up or shut up" than intellectual honesty or meaningful debate.

The Beguiler argument is incredibly relevant here. The reason the Beguiler is Tier Three is because people assumed you wouldn't optimize enough to reach Tier Two. For the tiers to mean anything it all, they have to be consistent across class. If the amount of optimization to get a Truenamer to Tier Three is more than the optimization to get a Beguiler to Tier Two, the Truenamer doesn't go in Tier Three (because Jormengand has made it clear they're not moving the Beguiler).

[Karl Aegis]

If you find yourself in a situation where your abilities don't work at all, you're outside the scope of the tier system. The tier system assumes you can use your abilities when they are relevant. If you're trying to hide and find yourself in a brightly illuminated room with no cover full of self-resetting glitterdust and faerie fire traps that go off every round you aren't going to be hiding very well. Hiding in this particular room isn't relevant.

Build explicitly doesn't matter in the tier system. You are assumed to be taking options that improve your character. You will be doing the things you are strong at and improving them. You will be avoiding the things you are weak at and mitigating them. For example, your psychic warrior may desire to use their bonus feats on Psionic Body and Psionic Talent to both improve their strengths (Psionic Powers) and mitigate their weaknesses (d8 hit dice and lower power point reserve). If you desire additional options beyond the scope of your class the tier system covers that with the multiclass note. If your Dragon Shaman desires Diplomacy on their class list and trapfinding they can take feats to get those features, namely Martial Study, Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra. But they are leveraging the features of other classes.

Lashing out at anyone and everyone because they read an ability (and you didn't) doesn't help anyone. Your track record at reading abilities is not even acceptable. You've literally quoted text that disagrees with you before. Read before you harass someone.

Having lesser versions of Tier 1 abilities is a good place to be at. If your point of comparison is literally the top of the game instead of, say, getting beat to death by some random caster because you couldn't beat their persisted delay death and persisted vigor or haunt shift + hardening combo, you're in a good spot.

[Lans]

The Beguiler argument is incredibly relevant here. The reason the Beguiler is Tier Three is because people assumed you wouldn't optimize enough to reach Tier Two. For the tiers to mean anything it all, they have to be consistent across class. If the amount of optimization to get a Truenamer to Tier Three is more than the optimization to get a Beguiler to Tier Two, the Truenamer doesn't go in Tier Three (because Jormengand has made it clear they're not moving the Beguiler).

If they are taking into account how much optimization they expect a player to do, as opposed to how much is needed, then its a consistent placing. Or if they are measuring the truenamers ptimization as less due to them looking to hit a number that they know they need to hit.

[Cosi]

Karl still continues to lash out with ad hominems, and refuses to present evidence consistent with his argument. As such, I will continue ignoring him.

You would think if I was as terrible as he suggests, he could at least quote something I've posted. I guess that's the formatting he thinks is trolling?


If they are taking into account how much optimization they expect a player to do, as opposed to how much is needed, then its a consistent placing.

Why would you expect the Truenamer to optimize more? You aren't looking at how much effort it takes to get to some particular point, you're looking at how much power the class has in an abstract, optimization independent way.

The idea that we would expect a Truenamer to optimize more than a Beguiler is implicitly accepting that the Truenamer sucks. If you have to optimize to get where the Beguiler gets for free, you clearly aren't as good as the Beguiler.


Or if they are measuring the truenamers ptimization as less due to them looking to hit a number that they know they need to hit.

I don't think the fact that you optimize a Truenamer by making it better at using it's abilities (well, able to use its abilities) is particularly different from how you optimize any other class. You optimize a Barbarian by making it better at hitting things, but we don't try to put the Barbarian in Tier Three because you can make a really good Ubercharger.

[Beheld]

We're not talking about the beguiler. Just in case you haven't noticed.

This is actually kind of genius if you really think about it.

1) "We can't compare the Beguiler to the Sorcerer because we haven't tiered the Sorcerer yet, so it doesn't matter that the Beguiler is better, because maybe the Sorcerer would be placed in Tier 3 too. Beguiler is Tier 3."

2) "We can't compare the Beguiler to the Sorcerer now, because we already tiered the Beguiler, and it would be wrong to compare the Sorcerer (who we are tiering now) to a class we already tiered. Sorcerer is Tier 2."

3) "Oh look, Beguiler is Tier 3 and Sorcerer is Tier 2, even though the Beguiler is better. hmmmmmmm. No revotes!"

[Karl Aegis]

Your "position" is that the entire tier list revolves around the beguiler. It's a dumb position. It's not even a core class. It's barely worth mentioning. It really is nothing special. We aren't discussing it. There is no reason to discuss it. You keep bringing it up as if it were the absolute bottom of Tier 3. That tells me more of your position than anything else.

[OldTrees1]

Your "position" is that the entire tier list revolves around the beguiler. It's a dumb position. It's not even a core class. It's barely worth mentioning. It really is nothing special. We aren't discussing it. There is no reason to discuss it. You keep bringing it up as if it were the absolute bottom of Tier 3. That tells me more of your position than anything else.

Ha

I am not even involved in your current argument and even I can see that is a flagrant misrepresentation.

Their argument has nothing to do with "Beguiler in and of itself" but rather their perception that you are using a double standard when tiering classes (with Beguiler happening to be the comparative case).




Truenamer: 65
The best argument so far for Truenamer was the percentage success chart. That was some solid legwork and it is appreciated. When looking at those figures I am happy about the Tool and Map percentages but disappointed by the low percentages in the main discipline. You could compare it to the miss chance by weapon users but it fails to live up to the action economy of that comparison. You could compare it to casting but then the failure chance is even more glaring.

Then we move onto the current arguments about the effectiveness of the utterences. Again I am saddened by how poorly they compare in either comparision.

In conclusion, truenamers are better than I expected but still a solid Tier 6.

[Beheld]

Your "position" is that the entire tier list revolves around the beguiler. It's a dumb position. It's not even a core class. It's barely worth mentioning. It really is nothing special. We aren't discussing it. There is no reason to discuss it. You keep bringing it up as if it were the absolute bottom of Tier 3. That tells me more of your position than anything else.

While I get that your MO is to just brainlessly lie about what other people have said, I think even you are getting confused about who you are lying about. Believe me, I'm not comparing the Truenamer to the Beguiler, I would never be so cruel. I'm merely pointing out that in addition to the failure chance on utterances, and the extremely limited number that Truenamers get, they do not even come remotely close to comparable spells, like so not even remotely close that you would expect an ability granted at the same level to do the same thing 20-50 times better.

I just think it's funny that your reason the Sorcerer couldn't compared to the Beguiler was because "we aren't talking about the Sorcerer" and you reason now that we are talking about the Sorcerer is "we aren't talking about the Beguiler." It was cute.

[Troacctid]

People keep saying Truenamers are support and utility casters, but then they openly admit they can't keep up with other support and utility casters (unless I'm wrong about what people were trying to say).
That's correct. They are weaker than other casters and have a correspondingly lower tier.


For me, I think we need a Truenamer/Bard comparison. I don't think most anyone wants to rate Truenamer any higher than Bard, and Bard is not only a Support/Utility caster, but it also is the poster child for T3.

Does Truenamer offer the same level of caster support as a bard? How do we set up a scenario to compare their numbers?
Nope, and it's not really close. Truenamer is definitely worse. That's why it's T4 and the Bard is T3.


Truenamer: 6
The best argument so far for Truenamer was the percentage success chart. That was some solid legwork and it is appreciated. When looking at those figures I am happy about the Tool and Map percentages but disappointed by the low percentages in the main discipline. You could compare it to the miss chance by weapon users but it fails to live up to the action economy of that comparison. You could compare it to casting but then the failure chance is even more glaring.

Then we move onto the current arguments about the effectiveness of the utterences. Again I am saddened by how poorly they compare in either comparision.

In conclusion, truenamers are better than I expected but still a solid Tier 6.
Please note a few things:
1. The chart is for a low-op Truenamer that invests relatively little into its checks and only starts with a 16 Int.
2. The chart does not include the bonus you get for targeting yourself.
3. Utterances used outside of combat can be retried until you succeed, effectively reducing their fail rate to 0%. This is true for many of the strongest utterances on the class's list.
4. Even with just Universal Aptitude (one of the 0% fail ones) the class is way better than Expert, which got voted into T5 if I recall correctly.

[Jormengand]

Incidentally, I should probably do this:

Rogue: 4, Samurai: 5, Savant: 4, Scout: 4, Sha'ir: 1, Shadowcaster: 4, Shugenja: 3, Sorcerer: 2, Soulborn: 5, Soulknife: 5, Spellcaster: 2, Spellthief: 4

[DrDeth]

Put up or shut up Karl. If the Truenamer needs more optimization to hit Tier Three than the Beguiler needs to hit Tier Two, either you voted wrong then or you're voting wrong now. This is not a complicated question.


The beguiler argument was over a long time ago. Votes were counted. It's dead


E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This debate is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-debate!!

[Beheld]

The beguiler argument was over a long time ago. Votes were counted. It's dead.

"It doesn't matter if the Beguiler is better than the Sorcerer, we haven't done Sorcerer yet!"

"It doesn't matter if the Sorcerer is worse than the Beguiler, we already did Beguiler!"

[Jormengand]

"It doesn't matter if the Beguiler is better than the Sorcerer, we haven't done Sorcerer yet!"

"It doesn't matter if the Sorcerer is worse than the Beguiler, we already did Beguiler!"

Given that classes should be voted for independently anyway? Yes. No PC class AFAICR is strictly better than any other PC class, so there's no reason that a player can't vote the sorcerer higher than the beguiler, the beguiler higher than the sorcerer, the truenamer the same as the beguiler, or any other relative pairing if they think that the benefits that the truenamer has over the sorcerer are more relevant than the benefits the sorcerer has over the truenamer. Though if they think that, even I agree that they're wrong.

In fact, especially if you believe that the beguiler wasn't tiered right, you shouldn't use it as a measuring point.

To be clear: independent of whatever other classes are and aren't capable at the truenamer's schtick, that doesn't really change whether the truenamer is or isn't. If they are, they're at least T4, if they're not, they aren't. If they meet and don't exceed the standards for any tier, they're that tier.

[Cosi]

Please note a few things:
1. The chart is for a low-op Truenamer that invests relatively little into its checks and only starts with a 16 Int.
2. The chart does not include the bonus you get for targeting yourself.
3. Utterances used outside of combat can be retried until you succeed, effectively reducing their fail rate to 0%. This is true for many of the strongest utterances on the class's list.
4. Even with just Universal Aptitude (one of the 0% fail ones) the class is way better than Expert, which got voted into T5 if I recall correctly.

1. 16 doesn't seem unreasonable for a caster with split use/DC stats.
2. You probably aren't targeting yourself very often. Even if we believe the Truenamer is a buffer, it's clearly not a self buffer. When you do target yourself, it's probably outside combat, so the bonus is less relevant.
3. They still have pretty harsh use limits. If you're rolling +10 vs DC 24, you still only get five uses per day. That's not really impressive for abilities at the level of utterances. Also, one of your big non-combat utterances (word of nurturing) is also your primary offensive tool.
4. I wouldn't say "way" better. You get UMD and some class features, but you don't get Diplomacy, Iajutsu Focus, or any other good skills. This is particularly funny because the chapter suggests you might want to be a negotiator.


The beguiler argument was over a long time ago. Votes were counted. It's dead

Yes. The Beguiler being Tier Three is in fact a necessary precondition for this particular argument to make any sense. The argument goes like this:

It is possible to make a Tier Two Beguiler. If you're voting Tier Three for the Beguiler, that means you think the amount of optimization you need to do to make a Tier Three Beguiler exceeds the amount of optimization the Tiers should allow. This is, in the abstract, a reasonable position. We're going to put some cap on optimization, and it's going to put some classes in a lower Tier than they would be with a higher cap. But what voting Tier Three for the Beguiler does mean is that however much optimization is necessary to put the Beguiler in Tier Two is the above the ceiling for optimization you can factor in when selecting a Tier.

So then, the question is, how much optimization do you need to do to make a Tier Three Truenamer (also, so that no goal posts get shifted, what is the floor for Tier Two). I eagerly await either Jormengand or Karl actually posting a Truenamer they consider Tier Three. The fact that neither has done so is making their passionate belief that it is increasingly less compelling.


Ha

I am not even involved in your current argument and even I can see that is a flagrant misrepresentation.

Their argument has nothing to do with "Beguiler in and of itself" but rather their perception that you are using a double standard when tiering classes (with Beguiler happening to be the comparative case).

This. I don't understand why you would think the argument is "Beguiler is better than Truenamer". It's not even particularly close to that.

[Troacctid]

1. 16 doesn't seem unreasonable for a caster with split use/DC stats.
Well, no, it's not unreasonable (or I wouldn't have used it), but it is what I'd consider the minimum amount that is reasonable. Part of what I was trying to do was show that you don't need to really optimize in order for your abilities to work (because people are always saying "You literally can't use your class features!"), so I used intentionally conservative values.


3. They still have pretty harsh use limits. If you're rolling +10 vs DC 24, you still only get five uses per day. That's not really impressive for abilities at the level of utterances. Also, one of your big non-combat utterances (word of nurturing) is also your primary offensive tool.
Truenamer: Oh no, woe is me! I can only use each of my spells five times a day! Oh woe, oh woe.
Shadowcaster: My heart bleeds for you.
Adept: T_T

(Adept, by the way, bonafide T4 class, apparently!)


4. I wouldn't say "way" better. You get UMD and some class features, but you don't get Diplomacy, Iajutsu Focus, or any other good skills. This is particularly funny because the chapter suggests you might want to be a negotiator.
I'm pretty comfortable saying it. Experts are very weak.

[Lans]

Why would you expect the Truenamer to optimize more? You aren't looking at how much effort it takes to get to some particular point, you're looking at how much power the class has in an abstract, optimization independent way.

The idea that we would expect a Truenamer to optimize more than a Beguiler is implicitly accepting that the Truenamer sucks. If you have to optimize to get where the Beguiler gets for free, you clearly aren't as good as the Beguiler.
I don't like saying it sucks, I think truenamer is low tier 4 and the beguiler is low tier 2. I expect lower tier classes to optimize more.




I don't think the fact that you optimize a Truenamer by making it better at using it's abilities (well, able to use its abilities) is particularly different from how you optimize any other class. You optimize a Barbarian by making it better at hitting things, but we don't try to put the Barbarian in Tier Three because you can make a really good Ubercharger. Its a matter of knowing exactly what number you need to optimize to from your class section. The barbarian needs to know what helps his damage, and what the ACs and hp of the opposing monsters are. Besides if we get into what the barbarian is doing and the truenamer is doing I expect them to look pretty similiar. A few feats and a few items for both.

[Hurnn]

Psychic Rogue (Web)

N/A

Dont use psionics.

Spirit Shaman (CDv)

T 2,1

So prepared 9/9 caster off the weakest of the 3 lists but can repeatedly cast from their spells retrieved, which makes preparing niche spells actually not bad because if it doesn't come up no real loss. Seams Like T1 material to me even if it is at the bottom end.
Changed my mind 3 spells retrived per day seams crippling but you still have full access to a really strong list and some pretty useful class features.

Swashbuckler (CWr)

T5

Worse Fighter

Swordsage (ToB)

T3,4

The only ToB class that I think is actually T3, Decent skills and 6+ INT, and access to the 2 schools with probably the most out of combat utility.

Totemist (MoI)

N/A

Really gotta finish this book


Truenamer (ToM)

T X

Reading this class made my head hurt a bit, does not work out of the box with out heavily investing into the class mechanics.

[Lans]

Truenamers can heighthen their spells by adding 4 to the Truespeak DC, and

because these constitute different utterances. The reverse of an utterance is treated as the same utterance for the purpose of the Law of Sequence.

So if you heighten word of nurturing you can get an additional sets of uses out of it. I'm not sure if the reverse counts for a use on the main side for the law of resistence.


Yeah, but that's probably pretty hard to do. Truespeak DCs are non-trivial, and most damage dealers are optimized for melee.

Even if it buys a round of plinking that can be pretty significant. An earth elemental can dish out 40 points of damage easy at level 7.



Casters are the people who have abilities (you care about) that require saving throws. If the ability to give someone a -5 penalty to saves matters, it matters in the context of a caster,
Would you say its with in the bounds of what you would expect from a tier high 5/low 4 character?


You aren't bringing much non-combat utility, and the fact that you have basically zero combat utility dampens things somewhat. If the players take serious damage in most encounters, the Truenamer doesn't seem likely to be able to cover all of it (particularly seeing as their damage and healing come from the same ability). If someone wants to run some numbers, feel free to prove me wrong.
I'm going to run the numbers later. I was going to do it now, but 3 am is creeping up :smallfrown:


This is not true. Troacctid presented a chart that indicates that you have a at best a 75% chance of using your abilities the first time each day you try to use them. That is not a reasonable chance, particularly because (contra Jormengand's unsubstantiated assertions), many of your abilities do allow saves.


I think Troacctids chart is on the low end, its 1 stat boost item, 1 feat, and a 'weapon' costing 10k. A reasonably built melee in comparision is going to have a main magic weapon, boots of haste, a stat boost item, a magic side weapon, be using 3 or more feats.

I think the amulet of silver tongue would be obtained/upgraded 2 or 3 levels earlier in most games, that a couple of more feats could be expected to be used to boost the check. Then their are a few more items that could be used like a masterwork tool or a harpers token.

[Jormengand]

Even with no harper token, an illumian truenamer with skill focus, improved power sigils and a masterwork tool gets a +14 on utterances from level 2. If you really want to go "High optimisation", item familiar permanently raises your truespeak check high enough to allow you a greater than 100% chance to use your utterances, and when you get access to amulets of the silver tongue and join the paragnostic assembly you quickly stop having to roll to quicken your utterances. That's your "About as much optimisation as I would put into a truenamer in a real game" truenamer. Total value of items is just over 10K, leaving you to do whatever the hell else you want with the remaining cash. It's not like you're a fighter whose most expensive possessions are the weapons they use actually to be able to fight things.

Nice find on the Harper Token, by the way.

[Troacctid]

I think Troacctids chart is on the low end, its 1 stat boost item, 1 feat, and a 'weapon' costing 10k. A reasonably built melee in comparision is going to have a main magic weapon, boots of haste, a stat boost item, a magic side weapon, be using 3 or more feats.

In fact the whole point of it is to be on the low end. I made it to show that low-op Truenamers are not literally incapable of using their class features (which is a myth that people believe for some reason *glares at JaronK*). Using the phrase "At best" to describe it is quite misleading.

[Jormengand]

quite misleading.

Does this even surprise you at this point?

[Pleh]

Given the discussion up to this point (as well as some more research I've looked into, including another handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0) I found) I'd like to amend my vote.

Truenamer: 4,X,3,5

I generally agree with Troacctid at this point. I think the best tier to give people is probably 4. The drawbacks can be overcome, but you'll have to do some legwork to keep up with a bard.

The fact is that the bard gets more class skills and more skill points. Add to that their spell list isn't a pushover (not to say that the Utterances ARE a pushover).

I'd actually like to see a Truenamer rewrite that basically assumes the Truenamer to function more like a variant Bardic Sage (Orator) than trying to be its own system of caster.

Kind of in the same way that in playing an assassin character, you're probably better off going straight Rogue and saying you're an assassin than taking levels in the PrC. So too I think you're better off being a Bard with Words of Creation than actually playing a Truenamer (not that you can't make it work with a bit of elbow grease).

[Cosi]

Well, no, it's not unreasonable (or I wouldn't have used it), but it is what I'd consider the minimum amount that is reasonable. Part of what I was trying to do was show that you don't need to really optimize in order for your abilities to work (because people are always saying "You literally can't use your class features!"), so I used intentionally conservative values.

You peak at 75% for your first use. That's working, but only barely.


Truenamer: Oh no, woe is me! I can only use each of my spells five times a day! Oh woe, oh woe.
Shadowcaster: My heart bleeds for you.
Adept: T_T

Well, the Shadowcaster is pretty bad, and the Adept at least has good abilities.


I don't like saying it sucks, I think truenamer is low tier 4 and the beguiler is low tier 2. I expect lower tier classes to optimize more.

Asymmetric optimization only makes sense if you're looking to hit some kind of power target. The goal of the tiers is to be power independent.


Even if it buys a round of plinking that can be pretty significant. An earth elemental can dish out 40 points of damage easy at level 7.

I don't think maybe saving a round worth of damage from a bruiser is something you care about.


Would you say its with in the bounds of what you would expect from a tier high 5/low 4 character?

If you got your utterances at will, you'd hit that point. But you don't. You get them probably less than half a dozen times per day each. They're not good at those kinds of rates.


Even with no harper token, an illumian truenamer with skill focus, improved power sigils and a masterwork tool gets a +14 on utterances from level 2.

That's still not even a 100% success rate for your first use.


If you really want to go "High optimisation", item familiar permanently raises your truespeak check high enough to allow you a greater than 100% chance to use your utterances,

Item Familiar is an optional rule from a book full of optional rules. It exists only if your DM allows it, and should carry exactly as much weight as questions like "how good is the Warmage with Recharge Magic" or "how good is the Factotum in Gestalt".


Does this even surprise you at this point?

Hahaha. Please. You remember the time you straight up lied about the level of a spell you can just look up on the internet? Or the time you straight up lied about how rebuild item works? But clearly, the people who think the Truenamer sucks are lying.

[Jormengand]

Given the discussion up to this point (as well as some more research I've looked into, including another handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8270.0) I found) I'd like to amend my vote.

Truenamer: 4,X,3,5

Incidentally, so that I don't accidentally count this vote twice, can you make sure that exactly one post has an obvious truenamer vote in it by the time I close the voting on Thursday/Friday? I certainly don't mind votes which are changed within the week, but just make sure you only actually have two sets of votes written down. Crossing out the old vote is fine.

[Pleh]

I just went back and crossed out my old vote, as per request

[Bucky]

As I understand it, the deal with rebuild item is that it can repair broken magic items. It can be abused with a few magic items, intended to be one-shot consumables, that are used by breaking them.

In other words, the items themselves are broken and rebuild item is the fix.

[Jormengand]

As I understand it, the deal with rebuild item is that it can repair broken magic items. It can be abused with a few magic items, intended to be one-shot consumables, that are used by breaking them.

In other words, the items themselves are broken and rebuild item is the fix.

Well, it's a bit more than that. It restores the items to their "Perfect form and functionality, including any magical properties [they] had," and their "Normal, undamaged state" with "All their magical properties" which would seem to indicate that if you snap a wand over your knee and use rebuild item on it, it gets its fifty charges back assuming the normal state of a wand is charged, not uncharged or partially-charged.

Apparently, though, this is a filthy lie by the truenamer apologists, with the temerity to use what's actually written in the utterance as evidence.

[Beheld]

Well, it's a bit more than that. It restores the items to their "Perfect form and functionality, including any magical properties [they] had," and their "Normal, undamaged state" with "All their magical properties" which would seem to indicate that if you snap a wand over your knee and use rebuild item on it, it gets its fifty charges back assuming the normal state of a wand is charged, not uncharged or partially-charged.

Apparently, though, this is a filthy lie by the truenamer apologists, with the temerity to use what's actually written in the utterance as evidence.

I can't wait until I get home so I can post the actual rules text :D

[Bucky]

I think it's defensible to interpret that as restoring any magical properties the item had at the moment it was broken, which for a wand means you can't gain charges.

However, items like skull talismans (CA) are either used and broken or unused and whole, with no depleted-but-whole state. So rebuild item clearly works by RAW.

This trick probably gives them the ability to play uptier (-1 tier limit 3) even when restricted to items whose descriptions say they are used by being broken/crushed.

[Jormengand]

I can't wait until I get home so I can post the actual rules text :D

Let me do it for you:

Rebuild item: Restore an item destroyed within the last round to perfect form and functionality, including any magic properties it had.

Rebuild Item
Level: 3
Range: Touch
Target: Destroyed item touched.
Duration: Instantaneous.

With this utterance, you instantly restore an item destroyed within the last round to its normal, undamaged state. Essentially, by reminding the item of its truename, you unmake its destruction. Magic items affected by this power retain all their magical properties, unlike items restored with a make whole spell. The reconstituted item has full hit points.
This utterance has no effect on any item that has been destroyed for more than one round. You cannot restore a destroyed artifact with this utterance.

Specifically, I call attention to language like "Perfect form and functionality" - a wand with no charges does not have perfect functionality, nor really does a wand with 49 - and "Normal, undamaged state" (the normal state of a wand is with 50 charges, which is why everything to do with creating, buying and selling one assumes it does).

[Grod_The_Giant]

With this utterance, you instantly restore an item destroyed
within the last round to its normal, undamaged state. Essentially,
by reminding the item of its truename, you unmake
its destruction. Magic items affected by this power retain all
their magical properties, unlike items restored with a make
whole spell. The reconstituted item has full hit points.

This utterance has no effect on any item that has been
destroyed for more than 1 round. You cannot restore a
destroyed artifact with this utterance.

"Normal, undamaged state" is not the same thing as "Perfect form and functionality," which is a phrase taken from the descriptive blurb and not the actual rules text. The RAI is pretty clearly "like Make Whole but it works on magic weapons and such," I think. It would seem to work for breakable potions, as Zaq suggests, but I think recharging a wand is dubious-- the wand's normal undamaged state when you broke it was "a stick with X charges;" it probably hadn't been a "stick with 50 charges" for a while. There's a decent amount of wiggle room, because this is the Truenaming section of the Tome of Magic and never saw the hand of an editor, though. Regardless of its RAW legality, there are I think two main points here:
It's coming online at 11th level; using a limited-use spell to reuse a potion isn't particularly impressive. It's a 2nd level spell in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alchemical-allocation/), albeit one that comes online around 4th-5th for the only classes that can cast it. Using Skull Talismans or potions from obscure PrCs changes that calculus, but that gets at the second point...
It's stretching the RAW to get an unintended effect (Especially if you're claiming you can fully recharge a wand like that) in a way that will raise DM hackles. That's absolutely the definition of cheese, and shouldn't be considered for conventional tiering.

[Bucky]

I just noticed that by RAW rebuild item works on golems. That sounds like it'd make an awesome mid-level encounter.

[Karl Aegis]

Psychic Rogue (Web) : 3
Spirit Shaman (CDv) : 1
Swashbuckler (CWr) : 5
Swordsage (ToB) : 3
Totemist (MoI) : 3
Truenamer (ToM) : 3

Psychic powers add options to the rogue. The loss in damage is acceptable for the additional movement and scouting abilities.

Spirit Shaman does have a good list to pick and choose from. Shaking your stick at spooky ghosts removes some threats the normal druid had trouble dealing with.

Swashbuckler is a better designed fighter. More skills and pseudo-improving a bad save are good things to have. Not enough to actually make it good at anything.

Swordsage gets enough of everything to be good at least at something most of the time. You get the most schools and the most maneuvers, therefore you have the most eccentrically named abilities of the three initiators.

Totemist get to choose what they want to do every day. Sometimes it is skills, sometimes it is biting faces off, sometimes it's turning goons to stone.

Truenamer probably could be named True Ninja and made True Ninjutsu checks, if I'm being honest here. All the thematic ninja abilities and enough things to do to hit Tier 3.

[Cosi]

Let me do it for you:

Rebuild item: Restore an item destroyed within the last round to perfect form and functionality, including any magic properties it had.

Rebuild Item
Level: 3
Range: Touch
Target: Destroyed item touched.
Duration: Instantaneous.

With this utterance, you instantly restore an item destroyed within the last round to its normal, undamaged state. Essentially, by reminding the item of its truename, you unmake its destruction. Magic items affected by this power retain all their magical properties, unlike items restored with a make whole spell. The reconstituted item has full hit points.
This utterance has no effect on any item that has been destroyed for more than one round. You cannot restore a destroyed artifact with this utterance.

Specifically, I call attention to language like "Perfect form and functionality" - a wand with no charges does not have perfect functionality, nor really does a wand with 49 - and "Normal, undamaged state" (the normal state of a wand is with 50 charges, which is why everything to do with creating, buying and selling one assumes it does).

I've heard of "text trumps table", but this is the first time I've seen "spell description trumps text".

The normal state of a broken, non-magic stick (which is what a wand you broke with 0 charges is), is a whole, non-magic stick. This isn't a MMO where the wand degrades to 57% charge or something. "A wand with 50 charges" is different from "a wand with 23 charges" is different from "a wand with 0 charges". In fact, the idea that the earlier state of a wand having 50 charges is its "natural" state is a non-starter. Any wand started out as a non-magic stick, so if rebuild item does in fact revert you all the way to the original state, you still get nothing.

[Beheld]

As Grod points out, you are literally arguing that the short one sentence blurb from the index of utterances overwrites the actual text.

Also note how you omitted the word "retain" before "all their magical properties" in your original quote from the actual rules text because it undermines your argument.

[Zanos]

Psychic Rogue(Web) 4
Slightly reduced sneak attack progression in exchange for psionic powers? Score.

Spirit Shaman (CDv): 2
Wacky divine sorcerer version 5.

Swashbuckler (CWr) 5
Check it out Bill! I made an intelligence based bard without any class features!

Swordsage (ToB): 3
My least favorite and the most wuxia of the ToB classes, who shoots fire out of his hands by punching the air really hard and creating friction or something. Because it has native access to the overtly magical disciplines it's the easiest class in ToB to put in T3.

Totemist (MoI) 3
Meldshaping is strong and versatile.

Truenamer (ToM): 4
I'm assuming intelligent but not gross optimization. So max intelligence, skill focus, and an appropriate magic and mundane items printed in the same book, but not an item familiar or assuming the supernatural ability to automatically succeed truespeak checks. I didn't really account for conjunctive gate because it only comes online at level 20 and automatically catapults the class into tier 1, which isn't a good representation of it for something like 98% of actual games. Truenamer can use decent abilities semi-reliably under those assumptions, so hits Tier 4. The Laws still mean that you aren't going to be able to affect the same target a lot in the same day, and you'll probably never really get any mileage out of quicken utterance without some serious cheese.

[Troacctid]

Kind of in the same way that in playing an assassin character, you're probably better off going straight Rogue and saying you're an assassin than taking levels in the PrC.
Whaaat, no way, the prestige class is totally better than straight Rogue.


You peak at 75% for your first use. That's working, but only barely.
It's not a peak. None of that math is a peak. That's low-op. That is what the Truenamer has with basically no optimization of Truespeak checks.


Well, the Shadowcaster is pretty bad, and the Adept at least has good abilities.
Yes, the Truenamer is pretty bad too. In fact it is at a similar power level, which is why both Truenamer and Shadowcaster are in the same tier.

Adept's only class feature is a familiar that can't be upgraded like a Wizard's can, so I don't know what you're talking about.


That's still not even a 100% success rate for your first use.
It's DC 19. +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from naen (let's forget Improved Power Sigils for now since flaws aren't a given), +4 from ranks, +2 from masterwork tool, +4 for targeting yourself, that's a total of +15, which means you need a 16 Intelligence to have a 100% chance on your first try.

[noce]

"Truenamer sucks as hell and beyond!"
"No! Truenamer sucks as hell, but not beyond that!"

I really hope this Truegarbage discussion ends soon. :vaarsuvius:

[Grod_The_Giant]

"Truenamer sucks as hell and beyond!"
"No! Truenamer sucks as hell, but not beyond that!"

I really hope this Truegarbage discussion ends soon. :vaarsuvius:
Yeah. Lot of exaggeration on both sides... there's been a decent conversation fighting to get out from under the "Truenamer is crazy good!" "Truenamer is utterly dysfunctional!" but it's having a lot of trouble.

[Bucky]

Given the huge differences in interpretation and opinions on variant rules that greatly affect Truenamer's power level, I'd like to encourage everyone to revise their Truenamer votes to include lower-priority tierings that take their disfavored interpretations into account. This may simply mean adding an X to the end of their vote, reflecting that its power level is mostly a matter of interpretation rather than optimization.

Remember, the scope of the disputed abilities depends on the DM's interpretations, not yours.

[Beheld]

It's not a peak. None of that math is a peak. That's low-op. That is what the Truenamer has with basically no optimization of Truespeak checks.

And yet, "high op" for anyone who doesn't have their DM allowing optional materials and doesn't own Races of Destiny is literally just +2 over that, and get's their fully upgraded amulet a little sooner but then stalls out until they are +2 over that again. It's almost like "all Truenamers are Illumians with Item Familiars" belongs in the same category as "all beguilers are Gnomes with Shadowcraft Mage".

[Bucky]

Also, to reflect the recent discussion, I'm changing my vote.

Truenamer: 4x352

And a new vote:

Totemist: 34

I find Karl's argument for tier 3 persuasive. But if it's not in tier 3, it's definitely in tier 4.

[Troacctid]

And yet, "high op" for anyone who doesn't have their DM allowing optional materials and doesn't own Races of Destiny is literally just +2 over that, and get's their fully upgraded amulet a little sooner but then stalls out until they are +2 over that again. It's almost like "all Truenamers are Illumians with Item Familiars" belongs in the same category as "all beguilers are Gnomes with Shadowcraft Mage".
There are many other ways to boost the check. Any Int bonus will do it, for example. And there's plenty of other things you could have. Hardened Criminal. Lucky Dice. Heroism. Paragnostic Assembly membership. Custom magic items that provide competence bonuses, if they're allowed; Harper Token, if they're not. Etc.

[Gemini476]

Truenamer: 435
They've got enough going on that they're better than the T5 classes, IMHO - albeit perhaps not as good as the T3 classes. They move a bit with optimization, but I don't know if they actually move as much as people think they do so I don't think voting for "X" is required.
I'm not sure where I'd put them within whatever tier they end up in, though. Probably towards the bottom of Tier 3 if they end up there, but IMHO above the bottom of Tier 4.
The problem with comparing it with the Bard - a clearly superior class, I reckon? - is that the Bard is so far towards the top of Tier 3 that being clearly worse than it isn't IMHO sufficient to drop you straight to Tier 4. It's like how you can be obviously better than the Samurai and still end up in tier 5. (Hello, Fighter.) They're pretty broad bands, if only because there's so many classes being fitted into them.


It's DC 19. +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from naen (let's forget Improved Power Sigils for now since flaws aren't a given), +4 from ranks, +2 from masterwork tool, +4 for targeting yourself, that's a total of +15, which means you need a 16 Intelligence to have a 100% chance on your first try.

Isn't the +4 from targeting yourself really more of a +2 because of the -2 from using an actual true name? Or something along those lines - it's been a while since I read the class.

But yes, optimizing the checks has you able to pull off Quicken Utterance without even getting into custom magic items or item familiars. Truenamers aren't as bad at their checks as people think they are, it's just that their utterances are so limited in their use that it's kind of painful. The Law of Sequence being the big one, especially since it applies to both the normal and reversed versions of utterances.
IIRC someone wrote something along the lines of 'when optimized to auto-succeed on all their checks, they become a slightly worse Warlock'?

[Troacctid]

Isn't the +4 from targeting yourself really more of a +2 because of the -2 from using an actual true name? Or something along those lines - it's been a while since I read the class.
My understanding is that you can voluntarily take a -2 penalty for incorporating a creature's known truename into the utterance in order to increase the save DC, but the bonus for naming yourself is just always on.

[Lans]

Asymmetric optimization only makes sense if you're looking to hit some kind of power target. The goal of the tiers is to be power independent. Eh, I'm going to disagree with this, I generally expect worse classes to optimize more or wind up dead. Or maybe they optimize the same and the lower optimized ones just get filtered out as they adventure.




I don't think maybe saving a round worth of damage from a bruiser is something you care about. Its comparable to a 4th level spell at that level, and every little bit helps




If you got your utterances at will, you'd hit that point. But you don't. You get them probably less than half a dozen times per day each. They're not good at those kinds of rates.

How many times do you think a caster is going to need -5 to a save applied per day? Its not like its the only ability either. They can still knock people down, solid fog, control winds




The truenamer google doc seems to have added the bonus from the head band of intelligence twice

[Mordaedil]

The Beguiler got its rating because people weren't clear on the presumption for what would determine the tiers, as did the Dread Necromancers. Nobody is disputing this. But it is what we voted on, this is Jormungandr's thread and we have a lot of classes to go through and the determinates for how the voting proceedures were declared by him. So, let's stop wasting everyones time, vote for the full round of characters, get the first list established and have a revote after the fact to determine the final rankings.

Nobody is saying these rankings have to be set in stone and there's good arguments for why things should not be set in stone, but it is really ingenious to keep bringing it back up and say we have to change later voting to reflect a previous mistake.

Mistakes will happen. We will move forward and correct them later.

God, this forum is full of such pendantic nerds, it's making me emberrassed.

[Beheld]

So, let's stop wasting everyones time, vote for the full round of characters, get the first list established and have a revote after the fact to determine the final rankings.

{scrubbed}
If you support Team Never Revote Ever because after you give them what they want you can revote, then you are confused about what Team Never Revote Ever wants.

There are plenty of arguments for not revoting, but "Let's not revote so that we can revote" isn't one of them.

(Also Beguiler Tier 3 is not in fact, what was voted.)

[Mordaedil]

{Scrubbed}

[Beheld]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Literally no one (in this thread, in many pages on the last thread) was talking about revoting the Beguiler until you brought it up. Maybe if you wanted to "move on" from the Beguiler revote you shouldn't have brought it up?

[Mordaedil]

Holy carp, that is so disingenuous that I think I'll just save all of our collective minds and say "If you're not gonna bring it up, I won't bring it up". And if you're good with that, we're cool.

[Grod_The_Giant]

{scrubbed}
Whelp. Thread's over, time to go home.

[Roland St. Jude]

Whelp. Thread's over, time to go home.Sheriff: I understand that this a reference to Godwin's Law, but as an administrative matter, let me add that this thread will be shut down (and new iterations not permitted), if it can't be conducted in a civil manner that complies with the Forum Rules.

[Cosi]

@rebuild item and potions:

That does probably work. That said, it requires you to convince your DM to allow the special psuedo-potions. Then, you get a limited number of daily uses of spells that can be put in potions. That's basically "3rd level or lower buff spells". Assuming you beat the DC by 20 the first time, you get 11 uses per day from your potions. Of course, it's worse than that because if you miss one use of rebuild item, you lose the potion permanently.

This is something you get as an 11th level character. I don't think it's even clearly better than having your cohort's cohort's cohort (a 5th level Cleric) adventure with you and cast support spells. Certainly, one your mini-me starts casting 4th or 5th level spells it's no contest.


It's not a peak. None of that math is a peak. That's low-op. That is what the Truenamer has with basically no optimization of Truespeak checks.

What I mean is that that particular character peaks at a 75% success rate for their offensive utterances.


Yes, the Truenamer is pretty bad too. In fact it is at a similar power level, which is why both Truenamer and Shadowcaster are in the same tier.

The Truenamer is bad if it works, and takes effort to make work. If people really believe that you can make a good Truenamer, they should present a good Truenamer at some level.


It's DC 19. +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from naen (let's forget Improved Power Sigils for now since flaws aren't a given), +4 from ranks, +2 from masterwork tool, +4 for targeting yourself, that's a total of +15, which means you need a 16 Intelligence to have a 100% chance on your first try.

Did the original bonus not include INT? In that case, sure, but I had assumed Jormengand included everything. Also, you are almost definitely not targeting yourself 99% of the time. For instance, spending an action to give yourself an action is pretty stupid.


Eh, I'm going to disagree with this, I generally expect worse classes to optimize more or wind up dead. Or maybe they optimize the same and the lower optimized ones just get filtered out as they adventure.

That's a reasonable expectation, but it's not one the tiers make.


Its comparable to a 4th level spell at that level, and every little bit helps

A 4th level spell is an AoE lockdown like evard's black tentacles.


How many times do you think a caster is going to need -5 to a save applied per day? Its not like its the only ability either. They can still knock people down, solid fog, control winds

At 18th level, I would consider inviting a utility caster who could give -5 to all my enemies saves along. Probably not very highly, but I'd think about it.


The Beguiler got its rating because people weren't clear on the presumption for what would determine the tiers, as did the Dread Necromancers. Nobody is disputing this.

I agree. The Beguiler is, by these rankings, Tier Three. If you believe that's correct (and the people supporting the Tier Three Truenamer clearly do, as they voted Tier Three for the Beguiler), you cannot vote a class into a tier if it takes that class more effort to reach that tier than it takes the Beguiler to reach Tier Two. Otherwise the ratings don't mean anything, and every class is Tier One because there's some amount of optimization you can do (buy a Candle of Invocation) that gets any class to Tier One. Remember, we're explicitly counting items, because the Truenamer is buying amulets of +skill.

[Bucky]

I agree. The Beguiler is, by these rankings, Tier Three. If you believe that's correct (and the people supporting the Tier Three Truenamer clearly do, as they voted Tier Three for the Beguiler), you cannot vote a class into a tier if it takes that class more effort to reach that tier than it takes the Beguiler to reach Tier Two.


Disagree. This unfairly penalizes classes after Beguiler in voting order compared to classes before Beguiler. If you participated in this thread before Beguiler, you should continue to vote in a manner consistent with how you were voting before the Beguiler result.

A reasonable compromise would be to use a double vote for Beguiler-adjusted and Beguiler-unadjusted tier.

[Lans]

@rebuild item and potions:

That does probably work. That said, it requires you to convince your DM to allow the special psuedo-potions. Then, you get a limited number of daily uses of spells that can be put in potions. That's basically "3rd level or lower buff spells". Assuming you beat the DC by 20 the first time, you get 11 uses per day from your potions. Of course, it's worse than that because if you miss one use of rebuild item, you lose the potion permanently.

This is something you get as an 11th level character. I don't think it's even clearly better than having your cohort's cohort's cohort (a 5th level Cleric) adventure with you and cast support spells. Certainly, one your mini-me starts casting 4th or 5th level spells it's no contest.



You can get potions of higher caster level to get a better effect, and somebody mentioned skull talismins I don't know what they are but they sound cool






A 4th level spell is an AoE lockdown like evard's black tentacles.

A 4th level spell is a cure spell that heals a bit of damage like Cure Critical Wounds




At 18th level, I would consider inviting a utility caster who could give -5 to all my enemies saves along. Probably not very highly, but I'd think about it.

What if you were a shadowcaster or an adept?

[Cosi]

You can get potions of higher caster level to get a better effect, and somebody mentioned skull talismins I don't know what they are but they sound cool

The rules say that you can only create potions of spells that are 3rd level or lower (per Brew Potion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Brew_Potion) and the description of potions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm)). Certainly you can get something by cranking up the caster level, but not a whole lot.

Skull Talismans are just potions you break rather than drinking, thereby allowing you to potentially use rebuild item on them.


A 4th level spell is a cure spell that heals a bit of damage like Cure Critical Wounds

A good 4th level spell.


What if you were a shadowcaster or an adept?

I don't really know enough to say outright about the Shadowcaster. The Adept has animate dead on its spell list, so it's probably relying on undead rather than save-or-dies to solve its problems.

[Zanos]

It's DC 19. +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from naen (let's forget Improved Power Sigils for now since flaws aren't a given), +4 from ranks, +2 from masterwork tool, +4 for targeting yourself, that's a total of +15, which means you need a 16 Intelligence to have a 100% chance on your first try.
Curious, how do improved power sigils augment your truespeak check?

Also I don't think you get a +2 from naen until 2nd level.

[Bucky]

Skull Talismans are just potions you break rather than drinking, thereby allowing you to potentially use rebuild item on them.


...and may (DM discretion) include effects such as AoEs that wouldn't make sense on a potion.

I think using rebuild item to repeatedly revive a purchased golem is ultimately a bigger deal than skull talismans, but I haven't actually used that tactic yet as I just noticed it while researching for this thread.

[Karl Aegis]

Somewhere between insanely good and completely dysfunctional, huh...

How about this combo:

Extend Anger the Sleeping Earth
Speak Unto the Masses Extend Silent Caster

You've eliminated some options for your opponents. Extend Inertia Surge could cause fliers without good or perfect maneuverability to stall out and hit the ground, putting them in range of Anger the Sleeping Earth. Maybe Dominate Monster a guy and force them to walk into the area of Anger the Sleeping Earth. Inertia Surge burrowing or incorporeal guys so they can't duck out of range after they pop out of the ground or walls.

Maybe use "basically tower shields" while your damage over time ticks down so you aren't eating attacks you don't have to. Or an actual tower shield. Basic survival stuff.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can get potions of higher caster level to get a better effect, and somebody mentioned skull talismins I don't know what they are but they sound cool
The big value of Skull Talismans is that they go up to 9th level automatically, without requiring you to dig up a Master Alchemist. (Though Skull Talismans may be totally unobtainable, because I don't see market price anywhere)

[OldTrees1]

Disagree. This unfairly penalizes classes after Beguiler in voting order compared to classes before Beguiler. If you participated in this thread before Beguiler, you should continue to vote in a manner consistent with how you were voting before the Beguiler result.

A reasonable compromise would be to use a double vote for Beguiler-adjusted and Beguiler-unadjusted tier.

The rules of this thread (as embodied by Jormengand) stated that you should vote consistently and ignore mistiered results.

So if you think Beguiler is Tier 3, then you are directed by Jormengand to vote on Truenamer as if Beguiler were Tier 3.

So if you think Beguiler is Tier 2, then you are directed by Jormengand to vote on Truenamer as if Beguiler were Tier 2. (aka don't vote based on a mistier)

All other voting including inconsistent and multiple context voting is discouraged by Jormengand under threat of plonk and not counting those votes.

So if you Tiered Beguiler as Tier 3 by saying it took too* much optimization to reach Tier 2, then you have been instructed by Jormengand to likewise Tier Truenamer only counting optimization up but less than too much.

*the "too much" indicating you did not think it fair to credit the class for the result

The argument at hand is that some people in this thread think that other people in this thread are voting inconsistently. The response to their abrasive but valid argument has generally** been an increasingly abrasive argument against a misrepresentation(aka a Strawman). This abrasiveness escalated to the point a moderator stepped in. So please, break the cycle and address their actual argument & do so with increasingly less abrasiveness.

**Although the argument I am quoting does not fit this pattern. :smallsmile:

[Seto]

Hi! Just pointing out that although the Shugenja has been voted Tier 3, it's listed as Tier 1 in the first post.

[Bucky]

The big value of Skull Talismans is that they go up to 9th level automatically, without requiring you to dig up a Master Alchemist. (Though Skull Talismans may be totally unobtainable, because I don't see market price anywhere)

They are craftable by anyone with Create Wonderous Item, Brew Potion and the required spell. They're priced identically to potions of the same level. That probably means you can't buy high level skull talismans.

[Cosi]

...and may (DM discretion) include effects such as AoEs that wouldn't make sense on a potion.

I don't think stuff that is "DM discretion" should be included in any tiering. If the DM decides to have all your fights in AMFs, Wizards are less good. If the DM decides to give the Barbarian a custom greataxe that turns rage uses into level appropriate earth magic, the Barbarian is better. Ultimately, if the DM can decide whether or not to allow something, it shouldn't influence a system designed to tell DMs how powerful classes are.


I think using rebuild item to repeatedly revive a purchased golem is ultimately a bigger deal than skull talismans, but I haven't actually used that tactic yet as I just noticed it while researching for this thread.

Ultimately, that's not super great either, because it requires you to be in melee range next to the golem. A golem that keeps getting put back together is pretty tough. The Truenamer putting it back together is not. Also, you may well fail eventually, at which point you're out the (not insignificant) cost of the golem.


The big value of Skull Talismans is that they go up to 9th level automatically, without requiring you to dig up a Master Alchemist. (Though Skull Talismans may be totally unobtainable, because I don't see market price anywhere)

I don't think so. The part of Complete Arcane describing variant potions seems to be pretty clear that the variants only go up to 3rd level, just like regular potions.

[Bucky]

I don't think stuff that is "DM discretion" should be included in any tiering. If the DM decides to have all your fights in AMFs, Wizards are less good. If the DM decides to give the Barbarian a custom greataxe that turns rage uses into level appropriate earth magic, the Barbarian is better. Ultimately, if the DM can decide whether or not to allow something, it shouldn't influence a system designed to tell DMs how powerful classes are.


Skull Talisman of Consecrate is allowed by RAW. Potion of Consecrate is DM Discretion and probably wouldn't fly.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think so. The part of Complete Arcane describing variant potions seems to be pretty clear that the variants only go up to 3rd level, just like regular potions.
They're in Frostburn; higher level spells is 100% RAW.

A skull talisman can be used only once. The size of the
creature’s skull used in creation of the talisman determines
the maximum level of spell that can be stored in it. A Small
skull can store a spell of up to 3rd level. A Medium Skull
can store a spell of up to 6th level. A Large skull can store a
spell of up to 9th level. Only spells that target one or more
creatures can be stored in a skull talisman.

[Bucky]

I've been using the Complete Arcane text for reference; how much else of the things I've said does Frostburn override?

[Cosi]

Skull Talisman of Consecrate is allowed by RAW. Potion of Consecrate is DM Discretion and probably wouldn't fly.

I don't think the RAW is that clear cut on Skull Talismans of consecrate (or some other arbitrary non potion legal spell).

First, the specific section on Skull Talismans (Complete Arcane, page 138) doesn't have any rules specific to them.

Second, that particular section of rules (the "Potions" heading on the same page), lists the rules for "potions", rather than "variant potions". Here's the relevant text:


The standard potion is ... a vial filled with a magical libation ... having the following characteristics ... Limited to spells of 3rd level or lower

This is nominally supposed to be the restrictions on "potions", not "potion variants", and it claims that the only restriction on the spells that go in potions is that they must be no more than 3rd level. However, the SRD claims two additional restrictions. Brew Potion (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Brew_Potion) says:


You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

The entry for potions and oils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) says:


It [a potion or oil] can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Obviously, there's a disconnect here. Possible resolutions range from "it's not an exhaustive list, you inherent the other restrictions as well" to "the fact that Complete Arcane lists no restrictions and post-dates core means potions are no longer bound by those restrictions either". Personally, I think the first is most reasonable. The intention of the section is clearly that variant potions are not mechanically different from potions, evinced by quotes such as:


While it's possible to introduce new item creation feats into a game, so long as all the new forms of existing items follow all the rules for use as their original forms, new rules shouldn't be required.

In fact, there's even a quote that casts some doubt on the utility of rebuild item for this use:


Must be physically manipulated in some way (unstoppered or broken, then consumed)

This would seem to indicate that the breaking and the expenditure of the "potion"'s magic are separate events, and that restoring the "potion" to functionally with rebuild item would not necessarily bring back any magical capabilities it had.

[Cosi]

They're in Frostburn; higher level spells is 100% RAW.

Godammit.

Why would you release two different items with the exact same name and different functionalities? Freakin' incompetents.

Well, it looks like the Frostburn version gets you higher level spells, but you still keep targeting restrictions.

Technically, I don't think it matters, because Frostburn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostburn) was released in September 2004, while Complete Arcane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Arcane) was released in November 2004. This makes the Complete Arcane Skull Talisman (which is capped at 3rd level spells) the most recent, and therefore canonical, version.

[Bucky]

A close reading of the CArc material indicates that it doesn't inherit the targetting restrictions from potions. There is a list of restrictions it does inheret, but targetting isn't on it.

Frostburn does have higher level spells on medium/large skull talismans, and small skull talismans are mostly identical to CArc skull talismans. It'd be reasonable to infer that Frostburn is the source for the larger talismans and CArc is the source for small or unsized ones.

[Troacctid]

Curious, how do improved power sigils augment your truespeak check?

Also I don't think you get a +2 from naen until 2nd level.
Increase the bonuses from your power sigils by an additional +1.

The Truenamer in the example is level 2.