5E Barbarian Optimization Handbook

[RocksInMyDryer]

I just finished making a guide to optimizing a Barbarian in 5th Edition. I haven't made any kind of Handbook before, so I'm very much open to constructive criticism. Since I find formatting a bit complex on this forum, I figured I'd just link to the Google Document instead of importing it here and reformatting the entire thing. Hopefully some others find it useful. I plan on eventually making one for each class.

Here's the Handbook (https://drive.google.com/open?id=16zrOCuKxAw1Wbu-otmCF2u8Yf-Jz7u6OLL9oMGI2YDo)!

[King539]

You underestimate Indomitable Might. Not failing at almost any Strength check? Heck yeah.

[RocksInMyDryer]

But at level 18? I feel like they get a bit shafted there.

[Kileonhardt]

Mountain Dwarf has 18 Dex listed in it that should say Str.

[RocksInMyDryer]

Thank you! Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Corrected.

[Kileonhardt]

Thank you! Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Corrected.

No problem.

If you're going to add a multiclass section then you may want to rate sword and board as half green. A Rapier/Shield Barbarian/Rogue is pretty pretty good, and not too hard to point buy into. 15/13/15/8/12/8 or 15/14/15/8/10/8 for Str based or 13/15/15/8/12/8 for Dex based. Having monk levels of unarmored AC, sneak attack damage, and damage reduction turns out to be pretty nice.

[Specter]

Describe the class features more, especially in terms of what players can or can't do with them. With Rage, the player wants to stay as close to the action as possible to avoid having it dropped. Reckless Attack is better used when you face few opponents, because if ten opponents attack you with advantage you can go down pretty fast. And so on.

And definitely describe the archetypes, or it's not a guide at all.

[rooneg]

And definitely describe the archetypes, or it's not a guide at all.

Yes, this!!! I was hoping for some analysis of the Battlerager options (coincidentally I'm building one now), but you just stop after the base class abilities.

Also, consider putting the final version into a thread here, it's way more convenient than a Google Docs link.

[RocksInMyDryer]

Describe the class features more, especially in terms of what players can or can't do with them. With Rage, the player wants to stay as close to the action as possible to avoid having it dropped. Reckless Attack is better used when you face few opponents, because if ten opponents attack you with advantage you can go down pretty fast. And so on.

And definitely describe the archetypes, or it's not a guide at all.

Fair point. I actually made a point of not describing the mechanics too much, because I was afraid of the copyright thing. I don't know how much you're allowed to say. Same reason when talking about the races I didn't specifically write every trait and bonus they have. But I could get a lot more detailed if you guys like. I'll get on it today.

[RocksInMyDryer]

Described the builds and features a bit more, and added a Feat chapter. Going to add a Multiclassing chapter next.

[Mortis_Elrod]

maybe add in UA options, or at least SCAG and Volo's.

[djreynolds]

Great guide and awesome effort.... thanks

Now....

We fought Grazzt at 20th level, I had an awesome bear totem barbarian with resilient wisdom. He had a 14 wisdom, and +8 to make wisdom saves. The DC was 23 or so, I spent much of my time running away.

Mindless rage is an automatic pass, not advantage, but autopass very, very strong

Now we won the day, and the bear totem did his job of soaking up damage and attacks from Grazzt and his minions... but he was out of commission for a good 6-7 rounds spread out during the fight as many of his minions had fear

So if we say bear totem is number 1, and I agree.
Berserker may be better than the other totem barbarians, because of mindless rage

[JellyPooga]

The Dual Wielder Feat doesn't let you add Strength to off-hand damage; you're thinking of the Fighting Style. That doesn't completely invalidate two-weapon fighting, at least at early levels, but TWF is generally not that great because bonus action attacks are relatively easy to come by.

I also think you underestimate how good Shield Master is on a Barbarian. With great Strength and Advantage on Strength checks, that bonus action Shove has a very good chance of being successful. If you consider the Barbarian less as a damage dealer (which, let's face it, they're not that great at) and more as a party force multiplier, with the likes of Wolf Totem, this benefit is great. Also, as the resident sack of HP in any given party, any improvement on your ability to stay standing is a tasty bonus.

The same can be said for Sentinel. All those HP and that tasty Resistance to damage are pretty useless if no-one's attacking you. Sentinel is the Tank Feat and Barbarians are pretty much the Tank Class (closely contended by Rogues and Paladins). There's a very solid argument that Sentinel is practically required for your "stereotypical" Barbarian.

[RocksInMyDryer]

The Dual Wielder Feat doesn't let you add Strength to off-hand damage; you're thinking of the Fighting Style. That doesn't completely invalidate two-weapon fighting, at least at early levels, but TWF is generally not that great because bonus action attacks are relatively easy to come by.

This is an excellent point. I've been writing a Fighter Handbook at the exact same time and managed to get the Dual Wielding Feat and Fighting Path mixed up in my head. Definitely makes that build even more sub-par, especially when most Paths give you something useful to do with your bonus action. Thanks for the feedback!

[Deleted]

I just finished making a guide to optimizing a Barbarian in 5th Edition. I haven't made any kind of Handbook before, so I'm very much open to constructive criticism. Since I find formatting a bit complex on this forum, I figured I'd just link to the Google Document instead of importing it here and reformatting the entire thing. Hopefully some others find it useful. I plan on eventually making one for each class.

Here's the Handbook (https://drive.google.com/open?id=16zrOCuKxAw1Wbu-otmCF2u8Yf-Jz7u6OLL9oMGI2YDo)!

Bear is the worst option out of the Totems, I would actually take Eagle before it.

Bear doesn't help you get your job done faster. There will typically always be another melee type (cantrips and spells count as melee attacks) in order for Wolf to be taken advantage of. Wolf helps things die faster which means you take less damage as a result.

Bear is also a terrible tank ability at level 3. Yeah, less damage is nice, but you aren't being targeted by those other damage types as much, so rage covers most of the damage you are going to be taking.

But the number one reason Wolf is better than Bear. You can actually Tank with Wolf. Wolf gives enemies a reason to target you. By granting allies advantage, you are the scariest thing on the battlefield as you negate any disadvantage that might come up and you let allies hit more often.

In any game the first thing you do is take out the lesser HP threats and then move on to the big HP threat. Bear barbarians are going to be ignored in order to take out the real threats.

Bear's thing is about being attacked, and having no way to insure they are attacked, whereas Wolf's thing is about attacking and giving enemies a reason to attack them.

Eagle actually is actually good (I was remembering wrong before and just read it again) if you are faster than your target. You can kite the hell out of them (you get fast movement later) by using melee. Giving them one attack at disadvantage is better than letting them use their action to get all of their attacks. Being able to Move 40' and Dash 40' is sick.

Wolf
Eagle
Bear

Bear really has no offensive niche. Lasting the longest doesn't really mean much when compared to the paladin or cleric as most healing isn't done during battle anyways. If you can kill your target faster, you take 0 damage on the next turn instead of half damage.

[Maxilian]

I don't completely agree with Deleted, in the end, Bear Totem, is pretty good, that makes you sticky to every type of enemy, deal with the problem of spells (Many spells are going to hit, pass the check or not) so this makes you quite strong even against casters, i do think that Wolf is pretty good, but it depends a lot on your team (Not everyone takes advantage of this, and you may even have a full party where none really take advantage of it, or rarely take advantage of it), i... really like the Eagle totem, but mostly because i love anything that have to do with mobility.

Note: OP are you going to add the different options in the SCAG book?

[Deleted]

I don't completely agree with Deleted, in the end, Bear Totem, is pretty good, that makes you sticky to every type of enemy, deal with the problem of spells (Many spells are going to hit, pass the check or not) so this makes you quite strong even against casters, i do think that Wolf is pretty good, but it depends a lot on your team (Not everyone takes advantage of this, and you may even have a full party where none really take advantage of it, or rarely take advantage of it), i... really like the Eagle totem, but mostly because i love anything that have to do with mobility.

Note: OP are you going to add the different options in the SCAG book?

Bear doesn't make you sticky at all. It actually encourages the enemies to focus on your allies first amd then you second (once you lose support).

Take down all the minions and then focus fire on the fat one (high HP).

The only barbarian totem that makes you sticky is wolf. Both the 3rd and 14th level feature of wolf gives enemies a reason to attack you while really only the 14th level bear does... Though creatures at that level can just move/teleport away and then attack your ally OA suck and the feature only extends to 5'.

Bear is not a sticky option in the slightest.

[RocksInMyDryer]

maybe add in UA options, or at least SCAG and Volo's.

Note: OP are you going to add the different options in the SCAG book?

Since the UA options are being added too often to keep up on and a lot of DM's don't allow them anyway, I don't intend on adding them. However, I do plan to pick up the official supplement books though and add their content at some point. I just don't happen to have them yet.

[Deleted]

Since the UA options are being added too often to keep up on and a lot of DM's don't allow them anyway, I don't intend on adding them. However, I do plan to pick up the official supplement books though and add their content at some point. I just don't happen to have them yet.

UA is playtest material, you could make a blurb but I wouldnt go much beyond that.

Maybe just link the the UA compiled list.

[Socratov]

Bear doesn't make you sticky at all. It actually encourages the enemies to focus on your allies first amd then you second (once you lose support).

Take down all the minions and then focus fire on the fat one (high HP).

The only barbarian totem that makes you sticky is wolf. Both the 3rd and 14th level feature of wolf gives enemies a reason to attack you while really only the 14th level bear does... Though creatures at that level can just move/teleport away and then attack your ally OA suck and the feature only extends to 5'.

Bear is not a sticky option in the slightest.

The totems aren't why enemies should focus on you, the totems are what makes you more effective at what you already do.

Eagle and Elk give you mobility in combat: either through insane jumping to mimick flight or by trampling all over everything. Wolf gives you more combat control through trip and grapple (which you can already do, btw) and bear allows you to last longer.

And in the grand scheme of things, you are going to face monsters with spells or spell like abilities often (well, if you play the AL stuff anyway), so being able to shrug off damage like it's nothing is actually a great feature (especially if you consider that bear resists everything but psychic and thus arguable also magic weapon damage, but that might not fly with every DM).

It also not only plays well with barbarian, but is also useful in multiclassing, for instance moon druid with bearbarian 3 makes for an extremely durable and hard hitting druid: you get rage damage on each attack, your wildshape hitpoints last twice as long and you get to have out of combat utility options (which the barbarian hardly comes by by himself).

Speaking of combat, rage damage is great the more attacks you use. Taking 1 lvl of fighter (for the twf style) makes for a fearsome dual wielding blender. Considering that by lvl 12 you can, on average, outdamage the fighter if you try a bit make you a fearsome combatant.

As for the comments on Indomitable might, not failing a check or a specific kind of check is huge. Especially in a game where the design philosophy is that no matter how well trained you are in a skill you can still fail a moderate check. By then not failing a specific set of checks is huge. Autosuccess is a rogue capstone for a reason. So, yes, that is a high level ability even if it's not always valid and so at least black, likely greenish.

Now for multiclass I find that barbarian lends itself for multiclassing very well: it has a couple of great cutoffpoints:

lvl 1 for con.mod unarmed defense, lvl 1 for rage dmg, lvl 2 for danger sense (advantage on initiative and dex saves you can see, yes please) and reckless attacks. Both huge benefits. lvl 3 for the totem abilities which can make a great tool in a martials arsenal.

Basically what a barbarian dip does for another class is ensuring that you connect your blows and last about twice as long. What a barbarian could use is lvl 1 rogue/bard for expertise on athletics (so grappeling and tripping is easier), druid and cleric for some nifty spells and/or cantrips. (and wisdom is useful as well as you want perception anyway), even if the barbarian capstone is one of the best capstones in the game (seriously, +4 STR and CON, with a raised cap? yes please! Oh and throw in infinite rages as well because why the fornication not?! It's almost as good as say, Druid's Capstone...)

I found that the power in a fighter is tactics, using the right tool at the right time, but for a barbarian it's persistence: once you fully commit to a certain target, well, simply said the female dog is going down, 6' to be exact. You have one of the, if not the best setup for chasing (+10 speed, a focus on athlethics so once you get to roll conchecks for sprinting you got that covered and con is your home save and secondary stat so there is that...). Once you get mobile you will literally be unstoppable as you run everywhere. Good luck on getting out.

As for mixing with druids, moon druid synergises very well: just have all your casting be utility+longstrider+freedom of movement. Seriously some druid buffs are concentration free and last a good while (1 hr or longer) and will give you more then enough of a leg up. so by then you can take a fast animal (say 40 base speed), apply the effects of fast movement, mobile and longstrider (up to 70' movement already) and you will outrun anything that wants to lead you on a merry chase, if that same form also happens to have advantage on perception by smell (like the polar/cave bear) and you can find anything.Oh, and while Extra Attack might work wonky with animal forms, you could do without (tried a lvl 3 bearbarian/lvl 7 moondruid last week and had a very successful run) as most forms above CR1 have 2 (or more) attacks anyway. Add rage damage and you're golden.

[RulesJD]

Bear doesn't make you sticky at all. It actually encourages the enemies to focus on your allies first amd then you second (once you lose support).

*snip*

This argument...again.

Nothing in Barbarian makes you sticky.

GWM + PAM + Sentinel + Reckless Attack makes you sticky. Bear lets you live longer to do that combo.

[JellyPooga]

Nothing in Barbarian makes you sticky.

Rage gives Advantage on Strength checks, which combined with high Strength makes Barbarians good grapplers. Reducing an opponents speed to 0 and then knocking them on their ass is pretty "sticky".

Being a sack of hard to reduce HP isn't sticky, but being a guy that's buffing his team-mates makes you a magnet for attacks.

Being a dude that doesn't do a whole lot of damage on his turn isn't sticky, but being the guy that can do enough damage to threaten, if not take down the enemy squishies and has the mobility to get to them despite their meat-sacks' attempts to stop him, makes you someone your foe would rather not be left free-wheeling around the battlefield.

Deleted has the right of it; Bear Totem is a solid bonus, but it's probably the worst one out there.

[MrStabby]

Deleted has the right of it; Bear Totem is a solid bonus, but it's probably the worst one out there.

I think Deleted makes a good point but also misses out a lot. In reality most fights don't happen on a featureless surface. There are doorways and other choke points to block so there is a little stickyness to any class than can hold a doorway. With respect to being attacked it isn't just about the quantity of damage dealt, but also the target of that damage. Barbarians are pretty mobile and can get to the back to attack casters and break their concentration. Bear totem helps this by providing the toughness to soak attacks of opportunity and to make enemies attack him to protect their casters. Meanwhile the archer is shooting into cover and the paladin is still trying to close that gap to combat.

Personally my favourite totem is the Eagle, but none of them are bad.

[JellyPooga]

Barbarians are pretty mobile and can get to the back to attack casters and break their concentration. Bear totem helps this by providing the toughness to soak attacks of opportunity.

Not to nit-pick, but doesn't Eagle Totem do this better by allowing the Barbarian to a) move faster and b) avoid damage altogether by imposing Disadvantage on OA's against them? Further, aren't like 99% of OA's going to be B/P/S damage that all Barbarians are Resistant to anyway?

[MrStabby]

Not to nit-pick, but doesn't Eagle Totem do this better by allowing the Barbarian to a) move faster and b) avoid damage altogether by imposing Disadvantage on OA's against them? Further, aren't like 99% of OA's going to be B/P/S damage that all Barbarians are Resistant to anyway?

Oh yeah, not saying that Bear is the best, and eagle does get that - just saying that part of drawing fire is being in the right place at the right time and the ability to soak up the opportunity attacks is a nice bonus. Most opportunity attacks are types that other raging barbarians are resistant to anyway.

[Maxilian]

Not to nit-pick, but doesn't Eagle Totem do this better by allowing the Barbarian to a) move faster and b) avoid damage altogether by imposing Disadvantage on OA's against them? Further, aren't like 99% of OA's going to be B/P/S damage that all Barbarians are Resistant to anyway?

That's true, but Bear is mostly to get you in the middle of the enemy and staying there, Eagle is more of a Hit and Run tactics in most cases

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, not saying that Bear is the best, and eagle does get that - just saying that part of drawing fire is being in the right place at the right time and the ability to soak up the opportunity attacks is a nice bonus. Most opportunity attacks are types that other raging barbarians are resistant to anyway.

Even with features, which I'm always assuming there is something, it doesn't matter.

Bear and Wolf have the same mobility getting to an enemy. At that point, the enemy has very little reason to keep dealing with the Bear. Why punch a brick wall when you can go take flick a glass cannon or kill something that is putting out just as much or more damage.

Getting away from an enemy... Why would a wolf want to do that? The Bear can take more OA, sure, but unless you are kiting with the Eagle you don't want to get away from an enemy.

The bear has no real advantage over the wolf for mobility as they can move just as far as the other. Taking OA is a majority BPS so rage covers that...

Being in the right place at the right time? No totem can predict that one. Eagle would probably be the best.

Wolf, Eagle, Wide Margin, Bear.

The more I think about Eagle the better it gets. You get to draw OA, which will be dealing 1/2 damage on a hit, while doingnsome melee kiting. With the mobile feat... You won't even take OA and get even more movement.

Sentinel Wolf and Mobile Eagle Barbarians are fricken scary.

[LordVonDerp]

But at level 18? I feel like they get a bit shafted there.
Bounded accuracy makes it just as good then as it is earlier.

[LordVonDerp]

Bear is the worst option out of the Totems, please stop spreading this lie.



There will typically always be another melee type (cantrips and spells count as melee attacks) in order for Wolf to be taken advantage of. Wolf helps things die faster which means you take less damage as a result.
It also forces you to cluster together (bad), makes you a massive target for spellcasters (bad), and advantage is easy enough to get anyway that it's not even much help.



Bear is also a terrible tank ability at level 3. there is no tank in dnd



Yeah, less damage is nice, but you aren't being targeted by those other damage types as much, so rage covers most of the damage you are going to be taking.
Except for all the enemy spellcasters, firebombs, poison gas, etc.



But the number one reason Wolf is better than Bear. You can actually Tank with Wolf.

There is no tank in DnD.



Wolf gives enemies a reason to target you. By granting allies advantage, you are the scariest thing on the battlefield as you negate any disadvantage that might come up and you let allies hit more often.
Until you all get hit with an AOE, or you get mind controlled into giving the enemies advantage.



Bear barbarians are going to be ignored in order to take out the real threats.

At which point the bear barb smashes said enemy to pieces.



Bear's thing is about being attacked, and having no way to insure they are attacked,
No, bear is about being able to survive anything.



whereas Wolf's thing is about attacking and giving enemies a reason to attack them.
Yes, a reason to attack them with elemental damage and mind control.



You can kite the hell out of them (you get fast movement later) by using melee. Giving them one attack at disadvantage is better than letting them use their action to get all of their attacks.

Barbarians can't kite either way.





Bear really has no offensive niche. Lasting the longest doesn't really mean much when compared to the paladin or cleric as most healing isn't done during battle anyways. If you can kill your target faster, you take 0 damage on the next turn instead of half damage.
If you can kill the target that quick then wolf won't help anyway.

[LordVonDerp]

l
Bear and Wolf have the same mobility getting to an enemy. At that point, the enemy has very little reason to keep dealing with the Bear.

Except for the fact that he's right there and can keep chasing them, and that he gets a big attack if they try to run.



Why punch a brick wall when you can go take flick a glass cannon or kill something that is putting out just as much or more damage.


This is an even bigger issue for the wolf, since that forces melee characters to stay close together, allowing enemies to just run past them with no consequences. Of course, this only applies to enemies intelligent enough to know what any of that means.

[LordVonDerp]

Take down all the minions and then focus fire on the fat one (high HP).


Only applies to certain enemies. Most enemies aren't that tactically inclined.



The only barbarian totem that makes you sticky is wolf. Both the 3rd and 14th level feature of wolf gives enemies a reason to attack you while really only the 14th level bear does...

The 14th lvl wolf thing doesn't stack with the lvl 3 one and doesn't work on anything above a given size.



Though creatures at that level can just move/teleport away and then attack your ally OA suck and the feature only extends to 5'.

-Most creatures can't teleport.
-Those that can don't have any reason to care about the wolf

[JellyPooga]

please stop spreading this lie.

It's not a lie, it's an opinion. Don't get those two things confused.


there is no tank in dnd

The Sentinel Feat begs to differ.

The spell Compelled Duel begs to differ.

Any Class Feature that draws attention because of it's high threat if you ignore it (e.g. provoking an OA from a Rogue is Ooze-level stupid), begs to differ.

Any Class with high durability in combat, that is a tempting target either because of it's direct threat or the buffs it is granting the whole team (e.g. a Paladins Aura's), begs to differ.

It's true that there's no "Tank" in the MMORPG sense of a Class or feature that literally forces an opponent to attack you, but there are plenty of features and abilities that encourage others to attack you and the role of "dude who's tough enough to take it like a bro and get's all up in the enemies grill so they attack him instead of his squishier mates", definitely exists and the Barbarian is pretty good at it, on the whole. Rather than referring to that guy by that rather long and awkward title, shall we call him a "Tank" instead? Yes, I think that's a good idea, don't you?

[Deleted]

VonDerp

I'm gonna just post again without quoting because there are too many posts, double and triple posts, to keep track of. The multi quote button and the edit button is a thing.

Eagle Barbarians can Kite. Human variant or level 4 pick up the Mobile Feat.

You have 50' base speed. While raging that's 100' with your bonus action. While raging you take half damage from any OA you will ever get hit by (the opportunity attacks have disadvantage).

Even on featured terrain, you have the mobility advantage.

Wolf tanks even without Sentinel but tanks even better with sentinel. The wolf gives enemies to target them while the bear does not. The bear barbarian is just another enemy and has no special feature that has enemies saying "we should kill that one first, or else we may lose the battle".

There is no situation in which the bear barbarian is overwhelmingly better at anything than the other two totems. Even in damage resistance, the bear isn't overwhelmingly better, better yes but not by a huge margin. Just because you like something doesn't make it the best option.

Wolf and Eagle, while at first looked down on, have been shown to be miles ahead of the Bear. Unless you think not doing much at all is the goal of the barbarian, I guess.

[Specter]

Best totem option? Man, I love this debate!

For a lot of time I thought that Bear was the best, to the point of being unfair. But after a lot of play and away from theorycrafting, all three hold up well against each other. It's a matter of preferred tactics.

Bearbarian is the classic reckless barbarian, taking things on the chest and not caring much. But this is only a broadening of options: in most cases, melee guys targeting the barbarian will deal damage that is resisted by any barbarian. It does what it does well, but doesn't open any new combat options and strategies, until level 14 where Sentinel becomes an amazing feat to take. Bear's main schtick is being willing to de the focus of damage more often.

Wolfbarian does best if you have at least two other allies in melee. But if you've got someone who can summon (druid, wizard, cleric) even better. Advantage is easy to get for one person, but not for several. At level 14, Wolfbarian becomes a better fighter on his own, cutting chases and getting himself some advantage. As said, Sentinel is good feat for any Wolfbarian.

Eaglarian (Barbareagle? We'll figure it out) can allow himself to be reckless, like Bear, but in terms of mobility. With Fast Movement, anyone in the grid can be easily reached by him unless they plan contingencies for that. He's also the one who has less chance of losing his rage for not attacking/being attacked. Mobile is a good feat for them, but the best tailored one would be Mage Slayer, in my opinion. Casters tend to have similar strategies of hiding behind minions and staying away from melee, so that your playstyle goes directly against it. And if they focus on you, you have advantage on the save and smack them around.

Op should of course cover all these strategy options in his guide.

[Deleted]

Best totem option? Man, I love this debate!

For a lot of time I thought that Bear was the best, to the point of being unfair. But after a lot of play and away from theorycrafting, all three hold up well against each other. It's a matter of preferred tactics.

Bearbarian is the classic reckless barbarian, taking things on the chest and not caring much. But this is only a broadening of options: in most cases, melee guys targeting the barbarian will deal damage that is resisted by any barbarian. It does what it does well, but doesn't open any new combat options and strategies, until level 14 where Sentinel becomes an amazing feat to take. Bear's main schtick is being willing to de the focus of damage more often.

Wolfbarian does best if you have at least two other allies in melee. But if you've got someone who can summon (druid, wizard, cleric) even better. Advantage is easy to get for one person, but not for several. At level 14, Wolfbarian becomes a better fighter on his own, cutting chases and getting himself some advantage. As said, Sentinel is good feat for any Wolfbarian.

Eaglarian (Barbareagle? We'll figure it out) can allow himself to be reckless, like Bear, but in terms of mobility. With Fast Movement, anyone in the grid can be easily reached by him unless they plan contingencies for that. He's also the one who has less chance of losing his rage for not attacking/being attacked. Mobile is a good feat for them, but the best tailored one would be Mage Slayer, in my opinion. Casters tend to have similar strategies of hiding behind minions and staying away from melee, so that your playstyle goes directly against it. And if they focus on you, you have advantage on the save and smack them around.

Op should of course cover all these strategy options in his guide.

Thwre is a really easy fix for the Bearbarian at level 3. Give it the level 14 feature. Seriously. The Bear's 14th level feature is way over priced for late game and it syncs up well with Wolf and Eagle at level 3.

===
Bear: While you’re raging, any creature within 5 feet of you that’s hostile to you has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you or another character with this feature.

An enemy is immune to this effect if it can’t see or hear you or if it can’t be frightened.

===

Change the immunity to this feature to just be just around fear immunity to streamline it.

Now you have three totem abilities that all work around the idea of giving creatures advantage or disadvantage while you rage. Since eagle is situational with the disadvantage, they get some extra mobility.

[LordVonDerp]

It's not a lie, it's an opinion. Don't get those two things confused.
No, an opinion would be "I like this class" or "I don't like this class". The following, however, is a statement of fact: "class option A is worse (in general) than option B because of (XYZ specific condition of the campaign)"

That's the crux of his statement, he played in a campaign where some 70+℅ of the damage the party took was physical and now he's trying to generalize based on that. Now sure, if you're in a campaign that won't have much elemental damage then you should pick something other than bear, but that's one specific kind of campaign



The Sentinel Feat begs to differ.

The spell Compelled Duel begs to differ.

Those both offer limited tanking ability against 1 enemy, and sentinel requires the enemy understand what's happening for it to affect the creature's behavior.



Any Class Feature that draws attention because of it's high threat if you ignore it (e.g. provoking an OA from a Rogue is Ooze-level stupid), begs to differ.

Only if the enemy knows about said class feature, and is cool-headed enough to make rational decisions in the heat of a fight.



Any Class with high durability in combat, that is a tempting target either because of it's direct threat or the buffs it is granting the whole team (e.g. a Paladins Aura's), begs to differ.

Maybe, but those auras still encourage the party to group tightly, which is usually a bad thing.


It's true that there's no "Tank" in the MMORPG sense of a Class or feature that literally forces an opponent to attack you, but there are plenty of features and abilities that encourage others to attack you and the role of "dude who's tough enough to take it like a bro and get's all up in the enemies grill so they attack him instead of his squishier mates", definitely exists and the Barbarian is pretty good at it, on the whole. Rather than referring to that guy by that rather long and awkward title, shall we call him a "Tank" instead? Yes, I think that's a good idea, don't you?
It's a fairly misleading idea.

[LordVonDerp]

Thwre is a really easy fix for the Bearbarian at level 3. Give it the level 14 feature. Seriously. The Bear's 14th level feature is way over priced for late game and it syncs up well with Wolf and Eagle at level 3.

===
Bear: While you’re raging, any creature within 5 feet of you that’s hostile to you has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you or another character with this feature.

An enemy is immune to this effect if it can’t see or hear you or if it can’t be frightened.

===

Change the immunity to this feature to just be just around fear immunity to streamline it.

Now you have three totem abilities that all work around the idea of giving creatures advantage or disadvantage while you rage. Since eagle is situational with the disadvantage, they get some extra mobility.

That is strictly worse than what the bear already gets.

[JellyPooga]

Those both offer limited tanking ability

Limited Tanking is still Tanking :smalltongue:


It's a fairly misleading idea.

Misleading how? D&D isn't a computer game; your opponents aren't following a pre-programmed script. "Drawing aggro" has no place in a TTRPG because your opponent isn't a computer, so the same concept of what a "Tank" is or isn't simply doesn't appy and that's assuming you subscribe to the very narrow definition of a Tank being "someone that literally forces others to attack them". Be misled all you like, I doubt many others will be.

[Deleted]

That is strictly worse than what the bear already gets.

Haha, no, it isn't.

That is what Bear gets at 14th level, like literally. It isn't good for 14th level, but it would be good at a lower level.

It makes bear worth playing and fixes the Bear totem to have them be more in line with Eagle and Wolf.

This actually makes the Bear a tank, makes them scary, and makes them interesting to use.

The PHB Bear at level 3 is more of a trap option than anything else. You can keep pretending that bear is better than it really is, that's fine. Have fun with the absolute worst totem in the PHB.

The bear totem barbarian at level 3 makes the champion fighter looks like a fantastic subclass.

[LordVonDerp]

VonDerp

Eagle Barbarians can Kite. Human variant or level 4 pick up the Mobile Feat.

You have 50' base speed. While raging that's 100' with your bonus action. While raging you take half damage from any OA you will ever get hit by (the opportunity attacks have disadvantage).

That's kind of cool. It's not useful, but it's cool.



Wolf tanks even without Sentinel but tanks even better with sentinel. The wolf gives enemies to target them while the bear does not. The bear barbarian is just another enemy and has no special feature that has enemies saying "we should kill that one first, or else we may lose the battle".

Exactly. No character can survive long being singled out by the enemies. Especially not one with weak AC (savage attack) and no good defense against magic.





There is no situation in which the bear barbarian is overwhelmingly better at anything than the other two totems. Even in damage resistance, the bear isn't overwhelmingly better, better yes but not by a huge margin.

The bear is better at
- not endangering his allies (vs wolf)
- being part of a ranged heavy team (which are actually good this edition)
- dealing with spells (always popular)
-surviving



Just because you like something doesn't make it the best option.
Yes, I keep telling you this and you keep having trouble understanding it.



Wolf and Eagle, while at first looked down on, have been shown to be miles ahead of the Bear. Unless you think not doing much at all is the goal of the barbarian, I guess.
I've already debunked this, at least for level 3.

[LordVonDerp]

Haha, no, it isn't.

That is what Bear gets at 14th level, like literally. It isn't good for 14th level, but it would be good at a lower level.

It makes bear worth playing and fixes the Bear totem to have them be more in line with Eagle and Wolf.

This actually makes the Bear a tank, makes them scary, and makes them interesting to use.

The PHB Bear at level 3 is more of a trap option than anything else. You can keep pretending that bear is better than it really is, that's fine. Have fun with the absolute worst totem in the PHB.

The bear totem barbarian at level 3 makes the champion fighter looks like a fantastic subclass.
It might be alright if the bear gets to keep his resistances, otherwise it's a downgrade. Also, the 14th level totem abilities are mostly mediocre anyway.

And you still haven't provided any credible evidence that bear is worse than the others.

[LordVonDerp]

Misleading how? D&D isn't a computer game; your opponents aren't following a pre-programmed script. "Drawing aggro" has no place in a TTRPG because your opponent isn't a computer, so the same concept of what a "Tank" is or isn't simply doesn't appy

You've already summed up exactly why it's misleading. You're not actually tanking, so it shouldn't be called tanking.

[Larpus]

Easy fellas, you're derailing the thread, I suggest you start a specific thread for this topic, this one's about the guide.

If anyone cares, I can see why the bear would be considered "the worst" or at least "not the best go-to grab now option", in the sense it doesn't necessarily open new strategies at level 3, possibly takes some levels to see some real use and, finally, it's still dependent on the campaign; it's great if adventuring through the planes or punching dragons, not so much if unmasking the traitor of the throne and his (humanoid) armada.

That said.

It by no means make bear "useless", "bad" or "the worst in the sense of never pick this one", because it certainly has its uses and plenty of strategies around it, even if it doesn't necessarily open any right out the gate for the barbarian him/herself.

I can totally see a group with more than one AoE caster blasting the enemies while the bearbarian stands in the middle of the chaos and flames laughing maniacally, the group is often going against non-weapon damage causing enemies or if the player simply wants to be reckless without worrying about damage types and the such, for newbies it can be particularly hard to juggle so many variables and resources at once.

And similar to how the bear is not useful in every situation ever, wolf is the same, with enemies blasting AoEs against the barbarian and friends who are all hugging together near expendable mooks or eagle doesn't work great if the fights are too often in cramped corridors, the DM is good in blocking the path, don't use a battlemat or the barbarian is built to need that bonus action to attack constantly (yeah, yeah, moving fast is also really awesome, but some people just can't get past not being able to use their active features 100% of the time and to each their own), making the eaglebarian unable to truly shine.

Neither totem makes you a bigger target, except maybe eagle if you manage to get to the enemies' backroll, but it's also a gamble, since you need to rage before you move and, if you're stopped in your tracks for whatever reason (readied spell, invisible wall, it's actually just an illusion you moron, etc), you'll lose your rage.

At the same time, none of them make you a lesser target, you're a hulking pile of muscles (or gracious buff ballerina for the odd Dex build) that is either closing in fast to the caster guy, wrecking havoc in the front-lines, impeding the mooks from getting to your or any combination of those, if the enemies are ignoring you, they're either stupid or the DM is meta-ing. And intelligent beings will already be at least half-focused on cleaning the caster anyway, no totem will change that.

"Oh but bear totem makes you take half damage so they won't attack you", only true if the enemies (not the DM, the enemies) can somehow see your HP bar, which they can't, so they don't really know it's not being effective as it makes no god damn sense for it not to be effective.

So, personally, I say they all get the exact same rating, each useful in some way or another, but also possibly rendered useless/subpar depending on specific DM style, player preferences, party composition and, in the case of eagle, how the game is played.

It's like Jojo stands, many non-measurable variables can alter the effect and player ingenuity also play such a role that it's nearly impossible to objectively compare them and pick a "best" or "worst" option, just list all the possible strategies, potential uses and trapping and let the barbarian player pick their poison based on their specific situation/preferences.

[Specter]

Something many people are forgetting: Wolf and Eagle use their lvl3 abilities at every fight, while Bear doesn't.

[djreynolds]

I just finished making a guide to optimizing a Barbarian in 5th Edition. I haven't made any kind of Handbook before, so I'm very much open to constructive criticism. Since I find formatting a bit complex on this forum, I figured I'd just link to the Google Document instead of importing it here and reformatting the entire thing. Hopefully some others find it useful. I plan on eventually making one for each class.

Here's the Handbook (https://drive.google.com/open?id=16zrOCuKxAw1Wbu-otmCF2u8Yf-Jz7u6OLL9oMGI2YDo)!

Good stuff.