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ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-23, 03:28 PM
Okay, I'm trying to create a Gish build for use in a campaign a friend is running, and I need a bit of help.

The Party already has all the bases covered (Got a Warblade as a Tank, a Cleric who is going for RSoP, a Beguiler, and a Wizard who is going to make Batman), so I have some freedom as to what I want to do.

Here's what I want to do: I want to be a 5th wheel... someone who can do a lot to help out the party in general, rather than being 'uber' individually. I want to be able to mix it up in melee and do magic.

My Proposed Build: Sorc1/Pal2/Sorc3/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/???8

You see where I'm going with this, I hope... Pal2 makes for awsome synergy with Sorcerer Charisma to casting. I'm hoping to go primarily buffing, support, and battlefield control with my magic. I'm not going to be dishing out a lot of damage, but I'm going to be doing a bunch of Screw You stuff and buffing.

I've heard about a War Weaver, but I'm not sure what the prereqs are, only that it's a 5 level PrC that can let me dump buffs on the whole party quickly. I was planning on using Reach Spell/Chain Spell to do this, but it sounds like War Weaver does it better.

I'm also wanting to find a way to get access to Magic Vestment, normally a Cleric spell, for the same reason why I want Greater Magic Weapon: hours/level duration means Extended gives me full day duration at level 12, and then my whole party can get +1 weapon/armor of bla bla bla bla and bla then I dump the +5 (at level 20) bonus on top of it all for awsome boostage.

I'm planning on going with Mithral Chain Shirt (With SpellSword, I get the -10% ASF reduction so I don't need Twilight) for my armor since it will end up better than even Mage Armor (since it's Conjuration and not Aburation, it isn't affected by Abjurant Champion, and with Magic Vestments, it gets a +5 at max level, and I have an awsome Dex). With AbChamp, I can drop down a Shield spell quickly without imparing my 1st round combat ability, which will also give very nice bonuses to my AC, to make it very hard to hit me.

I was thinking of a final level in Archmage for Arcane Reach or Mastery of Shaping, if WarWeaver is a 5 level PrC and I meet all requirements. It would be nice, but not strictly necessary.

Any hints, suggestions, tips, or comments on my idea?

Sources Allowed: Core + Completes. BoED/BoVD only with DM approval. Races of X and Masters of X are prohibited.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-23, 03:55 PM
There is an 'upgraded' Mage Armor in Spell Compendium (Ethereal Armor or something similiar). It's an Abjuration Spell that provides an Armor Bonus. Ask your DM to allow that, or change Mage Armor to Abjuration rather than Conjuration, as it specifically says in the Abjurant Champion fluff that they use this spell.

Mephibosheth
2007-07-23, 04:04 PM
War Weaver is from Heroes of Battle, so it looks like it's not on the list of allowable sources. However, it has pretty easy requirements. 3rd level arcane spells, Enlarge Spell, and 6 ranks in Craft (weaving) are (IIRC) the extent of its prerequisites.

What the War Weaver does is create an "Eldritch Tapestry" that ties a certain number of creatures together (figuratively, not literally). The War Weaver can then send spells through this tapestry to multiple targets (essentially targeting the tapestry instead of the creature). Honestly, it's a pretty cool PrC but a little difficult to work. The real difficult part is that there are few buff spells that have ranges greater than touch and wouldn't already buff your whole party (Enlarge Person is the only one I can think of off the top of my head). Reach spell is definitely important to any War Weaver build, IMHO.

Hope that helps.

Mephibosheth

Ikkitosen
2007-07-23, 04:05 PM
That's a classic gish build, nothing wrong with it. Forget battlefield control spells, you have a batman wizard. Get some buffs, get leap attack and wraithstrike (if you can bear it) and go nuts.

Also, Smiting Spell.

Douglas
2007-07-23, 04:09 PM
I'm also wanting to find a way to get access to Magic Vestment
Take the Arcane Disciple feat (Complete Divine) for either the Strength or War domains. You can only cast one domain spell per spell level each day, but with Reach Spell and Chain Spell you can hit the whole party with one casting, and if your DM says the limit is on the spell slot's level rather than the actual spell's level you can use higher level spell slots to get around that limitation to some extent while you're working up to 8th level spells.


I'm planning on going with Mithral Chain Shirt (With SpellSword, I get the -10% ASF reduction so I don't need Twilight) for my armor since it will end up better than even Mage Armor (since it's Conjuration and not Aburation, it isn't affected by Abjurant Champion, and with Magic Vestments, it gets a +5 at max level, and I have an awsome Dex). With AbChamp, I can drop down a Shield spell quickly without imparing my 1st round combat ability, which will also give very nice bonuses to my AC, to make it very hard to hit me.
It is quite obvious from the flavor text and example character that the Abjurant Champion ability was intended to work with Mage Armor, the writer just didn't bother to double check the spell's school. With that in mind, you might be able to talk your DM into house ruling that it does. Also, you might want to see if he'll allow Greater Luminous Armor from BoED, which is abjuration and gives +8 armor normally, in exchange for some ability damage when the spell ends.


I was thinking of a final level in Archmage for Arcane Reach or Mastery of Shaping, if WarWeaver is a 5 level PrC and I meet all requirements. It would be nice, but not strictly necessary.
Definitely useful abilities, especially if you want to cast things like Chain Magic Vestment without having to pile on Reach Spell too.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-23, 04:12 PM
I think the Duskblade from the Player's Handbook 2 would fit what you're looking for (while being a very fun class to play). This (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=837888) thread on the Wizards boards discusses them more thoroughly.

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-23, 04:19 PM
No Eldritch Knight?

Iku Rex
2007-07-23, 04:20 PM
Earlier thread you may want to take a look at: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47536

(BTW, the SC spell ZeroNumerous mentioned is ectoplasmic armor and it only works against incorporeal touch attacks.)

Deepblue706
2007-07-23, 04:30 PM
Honestly, I'd suggest Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight8, as you'll still get 9th level spells pre-epic, and Wizards can use metamagic. Of course, you won't have the uber saves of the Paladin/Sorcerer route, but the bonus feats of the Fighter can be great, too - which may be a better choice, since being a Gish can be very feat intensive if you want to really be effective at fighting and magic.

Improved Toughness is always a solid choice for a Gish - and it'll be good to pick up Power Attack and Arcane Strike so you have the option of damage. If you want to have some really good damage potential, that means you'll only need more feats for Improved Bull Rush and then Shock Trooper. You'll probably want Leap Attack too, if that's the path you wanna take. Since the Abjurant Champion can give you so much AC, there's a chance you'll be doing ridiculous damage and still avoid getting hit after the attack. That is especially important, considering your slightly squishier state.

Which is, of course, why you must not focus entirely on one thing idea alone. If you're not specializing in a single field, you need to play all of your strengths. You can't go toe-to-toe with monsters as well as the Warblade, and you can't rain fireballs down from the sky as well as Mr. Wizard, but instead, you can still do both well. Grab up everything you can to make the Gish well-rounded, so you're useful regardless of whether or not spells or swords win the day, and combine them wherever possible...I mean, isn't that the point?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-23, 04:39 PM
My Proposed Build: Sorc1/Pal2/Sorc3/Spellsword1/AbChamp5/???8


I'm planning on going with Mithral Chain Shirt (With SpellSword, I get the -10% ASF reduction so I don't need Twilight) for my armor since it will end up better than even Mage Armor (since it's Conjuration and not Aburation, it isn't affected by Abjurant Champion, and with Magic Vestments, it gets a +5 at max level, and I have an awsome Dex). With AbChamp, I can drop down a Shield spell quickly without imparing my 1st round combat ability, which will also give very nice bonuses to my AC, to make it very hard to hit me.

Any hints, suggestions, tips, or comments on my idea?

Sources Allowed: Core + Completes. BoED/BoVD only with DM approval. Races of X and Masters of X are prohibited.

If UA/the D20 SRD is considered core as OGL.

Consider going Favored Soul or Cleric - 1 to be able to cast Prot from Evil as a Divine Spell for the prereq for PRC Paladin.

Go Sorcerer using the Variant Battle Spellcaster -6 with the Stalwart option for the extra D8 along with +2 Hit points a level and average BAB because for losing your familiar you will pick up an open feat at levels 1 and 5.

Go PRC Paladin -3 which gives your PC most Paladin abilities and +2 CL to sorcerer spellcasting.

Abjurant Champion - 5

Go MotAO -4 for the Spell Pool Access for level 1 - 6 arcane spells from the Spell Pool which is killer with Two Rings of Theurgy from Complete Arcane at 20,000 GP for a sorcerer. Since you have paid for your D8 with the Battle Sorcerer Variant you should receive your benefits with MotAO.

One level to taste (MotAO - 5 if nothing else and losing 2 levels of Abjurant Champion would be better for MotAO - 7 and complete Spell Pool Access with those Two Rings of Theurgy your PC could know up to 7 level 9 spells instead of one or several other spells to taste while still having spell pool access equal to 9 total arcane spell levels a day from the spell pool)

Spellcasting as a Battle Sorcerer - 18 with a single CL in FS or Cleric (Two Domains).

Now depending on how you and your DM stack your BAB with FS or Cleric and Battle Sorcerer you might be able to lose a level of Battle Sorcerer down to 5 and increase MotAO to -7 which would grant 1 - 9 Level Arcane Spells from the Spell Pool to change out in your Rings of Theurgy or emergency situational spellcasting by losing one level of PRC Paladin or Abjurant Champion.

Now you can wear Mithril Breast plate without ASF and losing a level of Abjurant Champion isn't so bad.

You can get the Divine Meta feat is you want.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-23, 05:35 PM
Okay, some more questions:

With Pal2, will I be able to use CLW wands even though I can't cast spells with Pal2, since CLW is on the Paladin spell list? If so, I could be an emergency 'get back up' healer with a CLW wand.

Reason why I'm going with Mithral Chain Shirt:

1) with a base +4 armor bonus, then +5 from Magic Vestment, that gives me a +9. Unless the other spell can beat that, this works very well for me, because I can stack on other abilities onto it. Ghost Touch for working on incorporeal attacks. Glamored. Maybe some sort of energy resistance depending on what gets chunked at us frequently or perhaps silent moves/shadowed if I need to be stealthy at times (with my dex going to be a 22, that gives me a +6, with another +5, that gives me a +11, which should do well in those situations where I have to be quiet)

2) Armor is always on. I don't need to cast it every day, it can't get dispelled, and I never need to worry about it.

3) Even in AMF, Mithral Chain Shirt still provides +4 armor bonus, and my sword will still be a MW sword, so I'm not as screwed in an AMF as I would otherwise be.

If the abjuration armor spell is like way better than the chain shirt (considering my Chain Magic Vestment makes it a +5), maybe it'll be an option, but I'd hate to be casting Magic Vestments for all my buddies and not be able to take advantage of it.

I don't want to be a duskblade because I'm wanting to do high-end buffages, which I can't do with a Duskblade. Duskblades dont' do more than 5th level spells, I'm going to be looking at 8th or maybe even 9th level spells.

Variant Battle Sorcerer stinks on dry ice. I loose spells known in exchange for not being as good in combat as I would be with the build I'm currently proposing. Prestige Paladin specifies +1 DIVINE Caster Level... can't use it to increase Sorcerer casting. MotAO is good, and I'm considering it, but I'm not sure it will really help me in my role as support/buff. DMM only works on DIVINE spells, not on arcane, so it's worthless to me.

Improved Toughness is a lousy feat. Static, one time bonus to HP, and not enough to make a difference. While the extra feats from using Figher might be handy, I'm more interested in being not smoten, so Pal/Sorc works for me.

Arcane Disciple. Gotcha. Strength domain gives me Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, and Magic Vestments to buff my party with, all of which are good buffs. War domain gives me Divine Power, which gives me a tasty bit of cheeze: It makes my BAB = my Character Level. So for a level 20 character, that gives me a BAB of 20. With Abjurant Champion, my Caster Level = my BAB. So I have a CL of 20 for buffing with Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon at 20th level without having to blow a feat on Practiced Spellcaster. I honestly can't decide which one to go for...

War Weaver sounds like he's right up my alley, keeps me from having to blow on Chain Spell to achieve the same effect. This is very much a Good Thing. I'll ask my GM about it.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I think I'm starting to get an idea as to how to work this...

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-23, 05:43 PM
Just a minor thing: Improved Toughness is not a one time, static increase to HP. Toughness is (+3 HP). Improved Toughness gives you one extra HP per HD, so it scales with you. It's not the best feat out there, but it's not a bad one.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-23, 05:43 PM
With Pal2, will I be able to use CLW wands even though I can't cast spells with Pal2, since CLW is on the Paladin spell list? If so, I could be an emergency 'get back up' healer with a CLW wand. Not having access to your spell list yet is different than not having a spell list. You can indeed use wands of CLW.


Arcane Disciple. Gotcha. Strength domain gives me Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, and Magic Vestments to buff my party with, all of which are good buffs. War domain gives me Divine Power, which gives me a tasty bit of cheeze: It makes my BAB = my Character Level. So for a level 20 character, that gives me a BAB of 20. With Abjurant Champion, my Caster Level = my BAB. So I have a CL of 20 for buffing with Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon at 20th level without having to blow a feat on Practiced Spellcaster. I honestly can't decide which one to go for... Try the Domain Sorceror variant in CCham instead of burning a feat.


War Weaver sounds like he's right up my alley, keeps me from having to blow on Chain Spell to achieve the same effect. This is very much a Good Thing. I'll ask my GM about it.

War Weaver is a terrific PrC.

Also, the Spellthief in me recommends taking a level and grabbing the Master Spellthief feat, but that's just me. +1d6 SA, Steal Spell, casting in light armor for all arcane classes, and 6+Int for a level. And you don't even lose a CL with Master Spellthief.

Douglas
2007-07-23, 05:51 PM
With Pal2, will I be able to use CLW wands even though I can't cast spells with Pal2, since CLW is on the Paladin spell list? If so, I could be an emergency 'get back up' healer with a CLW wand.
Wands are spell trigger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) items, which explicitly can be used even by half caster classes that haven't started their spell progression yet. So yes, even a level 1 Paladin could use that wand.


Reason why I'm going with Mithral Chain Shirt:

1) with a base +4 armor bonus, then +5 from Magic Vestment, that gives me a +9. Unless the other spell can beat that, this works very well for me, because I can stack on other abilities onto it. Ghost Touch for working on incorporeal attacks. Glamored. Maybe some sort of energy resistance depending on what gets chunked at us frequently or perhaps silent moves/shadowed if I need to be stealthy at times (with my dex going to be a 22, that gives me a +6, with another +5, that gives me a +11, which should do well in those situations where I have to be quiet)
Greater Luminous Armor gives +8 and is improved by Abjurant Champion to eventually +13. It also gives melee attacks against you a -4 penalty. It makes you glow as per Daylight, though, so it's a bad idea if you need to be stealthy.


2) Armor is always on. I don't need to cast it every day, it can't get dispelled, and I never need to worry about it.

3) Even in AMF, Mithral Chain Shirt still provides +4 armor bonus, and my sword will still be a MW sword, so I'm not as screwed in an AMF as I would otherwise be.
True. It would be a good idea to have it as a backup option in any case.


If the abjuration armor spell is like way better than the chain shirt (considering my Chain Magic Vestment makes it a +5), maybe it'll be an option, but I'd hate to be casting Magic Vestments for all my buddies and not be able to take advantage of it.
If you don't care about hiding and you have a way to cure a little ability damage every day, Greater Luminous Armor is quite a bit superior.


Improved Toughness is a lousy feat. Static, one time bonus to HP, and not enough to make a difference.
No, that's regular Toughness. Improved Toughness gives you +1 hp/level and keeps going up as you gain levels.


Arcane Disciple. Gotcha. Strength domain gives me Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, and Magic Vestments to buff my party with, all of which are good buffs. War domain gives me Divine Power, which gives me a tasty bit of cheeze: It makes my BAB = my Character Level. So for a level 20 character, that gives me a BAB of 20. With Abjurant Champion, my Caster Level = my BAB. So I have a CL of 20 for buffing with Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon at 20th level without having to blow a feat on Practiced Spellcaster. I honestly can't decide which one to go for...
Just remember that the feat only adds the spells to your class list, you still have to spend spells known on them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-23, 06:04 PM
Not having access to your spell list yet is different than not having a spell list. You can indeed use wands of CLW.
Woot! more healing is never a bad thing. Come to think of it, Lay on Hands can be used to pick someone up too.


Try the Domain Sorceror variant in CCham instead of burning a feat.
I take it he looses his familiar to do it? That'll hurt since I was planing on PhB II variant for metamagics, but if I can do War Weaver, I might not need metamagics...


War Weaver is a terrific PrC.
Agreed


Also, the Spellthief in me recommends taking a level and grabbing the Master Spellthief feat, but that's just me. +1d6 SA, Steal Spell, casting in light armor for all arcane classes, and 6+Int for a level. And you don't even lose a CL with Master Spellthief.

Hmm.... do I meed prereqs for spelltheif? What does the feat do? I don't have a whole lot of feats to blow, and I'm not sure if I can reliabally use SA all the time.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-23, 06:14 PM
Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1), being a base class (CAdv) doesn't have any prereqs. The feat requirements for the Master Spellthief feat (CScn) are "Steal Spell, Ability To Cast 2nd Level Arcane Spells," something you easily meet with a one-level dip.

Draz74
2007-07-23, 06:23 PM
Taking Paladin all the way up to Level 4 probably isn't optimal. The loss of caster levels hurts. But I recommend it anyway.

Why? So you can get Divine Might. On a melee character with a super-optimized Charisma, that is an awesome damage-pimping feat. But it requires Turn Undead.

Just something to think about. There's probably some cheesy PrC you can dip a level of to get Turn Undead, too.

I personally am pretty happy with my Core-only (:smallfrown:) Gish build which is a Paladin 4 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight 10. Specializes in mounted combat, with summoned mounts. While it takes two rounds to set up, a critical hit (thanks to a Falchion with Improved Critical) on a True Striked, Power Attacking, Evil-Smiting, Divine Might, Spirited Charge (with a weapon of Collision for good measure) does a LOT of damage.

Another thing to consider is switching to a Psionic gish: Paladin 4 / Wilder 3 / Slayer 10. Makes it a lot easier to use armor, Quicken your important abilities, etc.

Draz74
2007-07-23, 06:27 PM
What does the feat [Master Spellthief] do?

This. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Master_Spellthief,CS)

Basically it makes your gish able to steal spells like a Spellthief, and at the same time gives you the ability to cast in light armor. Without losing a caster level for the Spellthief dip. (Though the caster level part probably isn't important, since you'll probably take the Practiced Spellcaster feat for your Paladin levels anyway.)

Fax Celestis
2007-07-23, 06:29 PM
There's probably some cheesy PrC you can dip a level of to get Turn Undead, too.

That'd be Sacred Exorcist.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-23, 07:43 PM
There's a big difference between effective caster level and caster level. That feat means I get to add Spellthief to Sorcerer for level dependent abilities, but not for spells known/per day. In other words, not worth my time, since I won't be able to steal anything useful with a single level dip.

And I don't need turning, I don't need Pal4 for spells, since I can get divine spells without needing it, although cast through arcane. There's no reason why you need turning for Divine Power unless you're planning DMM cheeze, which I don't have the number of feats available for, and really don't feel like loosing out on more Sorcerer caster levels by dipping Pal4.

I appreciate psionics, but in this case, I think it would be better to go Sorcerer, since with War-Weaver I can be buffing the whole party for the cost of a single buff spell.

What I'm trying to find is what to fill in between War Weaver and Archmage and what feats would be good. I'm thinking metamagics would be good, Reach Spell is almost a must for WarWeaving to the utmost. I suppose I can try for a Rod of Metamagic (Chain Spell) to do the Reach/Chain GMW/MV if I'm limited to how many spells I can cast through the Weave.

I'm not wanting to go down the PA/Shock Trooper road. In the first place, I don't really want to mix it up in combat that much, in the second, my Strength isn't my best stat (Dex and Cha took my good rolls) so it really wouldn't do me much good.