Any way to break into a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

[sir_argo]

What can penetrate a Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion? When I read the spell, I interpret that only people the caster designates can enter the mansion. Is that only through the front door, or would it include magical means such as Teleport, Plane Shift, Dimension Door, etc.?

Also, I believe that divination magic would work as long as the divination can cross to another plane (the MMM is on an extra dimensional plane). So Scrying shouldn't work, but I think Clairvoyance and Arcane Eye might work.

Without casting Dispel Magic to bounce that evil wizard out, how might a party try to either get in, or at least spy on the guy? Is either activity really possible, or is MMM too tight?

[SharkForce]

i would say the mansion doesn't block planar travel or anything else that it doesn't explicitly state it can block. the only rule limiting who can get in is in the section discussing who can enter the door (and it doesn't even say others are specially blocked in any way, it just says that people you choose can enter the door).

note, however, that the entire area could be contained within a mordenkainen's private sactum, which *would* block scrying and planar travel.

[JackPhoenix]

Apparently, extradimensional spaces aren't a different plane (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/25/extraplanar-space/), so Plane Shift wouldn't work. It's not the same plane either, so Dimension Door and Teleport won't work either.

[Sigreid]

I might would let wish get you in. But you'd run that 33% never use it again risk.

[JumboWheat01]

You could try asking ol' Mordy for the keys. I imagine he'd have a way to get in, it is HIS mansion, after all.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Lots of MMMs actually have overlapping restrooms. It leads to some awkward moments.

[wilhelmdubdub]

mordenkainen's magnificent lockpicks

[StorytellerHero]

You could try getting the deity of magic drunk and then making a suggestion to said inebriated deity to make a slight tweak to the rules of magic for lulz...

:amused:

[JackPhoenix]

You could try getting the deity of magic drunk and then making a suggestion to said inebriated deity to make a slight tweak to the rules of magic for lulz...

:amused:

Guess that explains Elminster...

[NecroDancer]

Bigby's Bodacious Break In

[Alejandro]

Tasha's Transdimensional Trespassing.

[Zyzzyva]

Vecna's Mansion-Smashing-and-Rubble-Sifting.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Evard's Extradimensional Entry

[Cespenar]

Disguise into the caster's likeness and have your ally Persuade you to be the caster. Then the Mansion should logically allow you to enter.

If your DM doesn't allow this, enter a long winded argument with him about "identities".

:smalltongue:

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Apparently, extradimensional spaces aren't a different plane (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/25/extraplanar-space/), so Plane Shift wouldn't work. It's not the same plane either, so Dimension Door and Teleport won't work either.

That's actually a bit confusingly worded. "An extradimensional space is outside other planes". That could mean that one is it's own plane, rather than "a wrinkle on an existing plane". Or it could mean extradimensional spaces exist outside the normal framework of planes all together.

If the former, Planeshift should be able to take you into a Mordenkainen's mansion (provided the caster hasn't further warded it, anyway) since the ability to choose who enters only applies to the door. If the latter, Planeshift probably shouldn't.

[Zorku]

That's actually a bit confusingly worded. "An extradimensional space is outside other planes". That could mean that one is it's own plane, rather than "a wrinkle on an existing plane". Or it could mean extradimensional spaces exist outside the normal framework of planes all together.

If the former, Planeshift should be able to take you into a Mordenkainen's mansion (provided the caster hasn't further warded it, anyway) since the ability to choose who enters only applies to the door. If the latter, Planeshift probably shouldn't.
I can do you one better:

"An extraplanar space is outside other planes."

You could still read that sentence as "well it's not part of any of the other planes *shrug*" but that would be uncharacteristically bad communication, even for developer tweets. Where we take this to be the supremely more obvious, negative response, that means that extradimensional spaces are of the category "plane."

[Lawful Good]

Heimskr's Hair raising Heist

[Squiddish]

According to the DMG (Page 68, under "Demiplanes") Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion creates a demiplane, so Plane Shift or Gate will work.

[Desamir]

According to the DMG (Page 68, under "Demiplanes") Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion creates a demiplane, so Plane Shift or Gate will work.

Here's the relevant text for entering a demiplane, for OP's curiosity:


Demiplanes are extradimensional spaces that come into being by a variety of means and boast their own physical laws. Some are created by spells. Others exist naturally, as folds of reality pinched off from the rest of the multiverse. Theoretically, a plane shift spell can carry travelers to a demiplane, but the proper frequency required for the tuning fork would be extremely hard to acquire. The gate spell is more reliable, assuming the caster knows of the demiplane.

[Sigreid]

A wizard that uses the mansion has blown a pretty powerful resource for a little respite. It certainly shouldn't be easy to get into.

[JellyPooga]

A sufficiently high level Rogue should be able to break into anything...let's see here *puts on GM hat*...

I'd say a DC:25 Int (Arcana) check to figure out the intricacies of the spell, followed by a DC:35 Dex (Acrobatics) check to "dimension slip" into the right "phase", followed by another DC:35 Dex OR Int (Sleight of Hand) or (Thieves Tools) check to "attune" and "pick the lock" of the Mansion itself. Technically doable around level 12(ish) with sufficient magical help (Bless, Bardic Inspiration, etc.), but probably not going to happen until 15+ and you're never going to do it reliably (I wouldn't allow an "auto-20" for time spent). Seems about right, assuming you know where the door is in the first place.

Disclaimer: None of the above is based on anything but the notion that an Ability Check with DC:30+ is "nearly impossible" and the assumption that the B&E is at all possible without the use of a spell or other magic in the setting.

[furby076]

the only rule limiting who can get in is in the section discussing who can enter the door (and it doesn't even say others are specially blocked in any way, it just says that people you choose can enter the door).


What do you mean by "it doesn't even say others are specifically blocked in any way"?. The rule specifically says "You and any creature you designate <snip> can enter the extradimensional dwelling" This statement is explicit: Only people designated can enter. That means all else can wait outside like a set of unwanted Jehovah's witnesses on an 8AM Sunday morning

[SharkForce]

What do you mean by "it doesn't even say others are specifically blocked in any way"?. The rule specifically says "You and any creature you designate <snip> can enter the extradimensional dwelling" This statement is explicit: Only people designated can enter. That means all else can wait outside like a set of unwanted Jehovah's witnesses on an 8AM Sunday morning

it permits an action for some people. it doesn't deny it to others.

the door allows only certain people in. it doesn't have any special functionality that blocks any attempt to enter, it merely opens the way for certain people. it doesn't say it blocks teleportation, so it doesn't. it doesn't say it blocks plane shift, so it doesn't. it doesn't say it blocks scrying, so it doesn't.

all the door says it does is grant access to certain people. that does mean it won't grant access to others, but it also means it doesn't do anything special to deny access to anyone else. it has no means to block people, all it does is allow people in (if they're on a list). that does mean anyone else is going to need to find a way to allow themselves in, but it also means that if they can find another way to allow themselves in (like a plane shift spell), there is nothing stopping them.

it's like if you built a door connected to a fingerprint scanner that will open for certain fingerprints, but then didn't put any further security measures in place; there's nobody preventing you from smashing the door down, or breaking through a wall, or pushing a small camera under the bottom of the door, or looking in the windows or even climbing through them. there's no alarms or patrolling guards, or any other security measures. all you've got is a door that opens for some people, but not for others. it can keep some people out, but if someone brought a breaching charge, well, chances are they're getting in.

[DizzyWood]

it permits an action for some people. it doesn't deny it to others.

the door allows only certain people in. it doesn't have any special functionality that blocks any attempt to enter, it merely opens the way for certain people. it doesn't say it blocks teleportation, so it doesn't. it doesn't say it blocks plane shift, so it doesn't. it doesn't say it blocks scrying, so it doesn't.

all the door says it does is grant access to certain people. that does mean it won't grant access to others, but it also means it doesn't do anything special to deny access to anyone else. it has no means to block people, all it does is allow people in (if they're on a list). that does mean anyone else is going to need to find a way to allow themselves in, but it also means that if they can find another way to allow themselves in (like a plane shift spell), there is nothing stopping them.

it's like if you built a door connected to a fingerprint scanner that will open for certain fingerprints, but then didn't put any further security measures in place; there's nobody preventing you from smashing the door down, or breaking through a wall, or pushing a small camera under the bottom of the door, or looking in the windows or even climbing through them. there's no alarms or patrolling guards, or any other security measures. all you've got is a door that opens for some people, but not for others. it can keep some people out, but if someone brought a breaching charge, well, chances are they're getting in.

This! This right here is why I have a love hate relationship with many players. You are absolutely frustratingly brilliant. Like I want to give you a new puppy then stand on your neck! If I were DMing I might allow this trick logic exactly once.
I love when players argue the depth of rules but there is taking it to the point where it hurts the fun... But I guess thats why DMing is hard lol.

[Segev]

Indeed. While nothing says that the door "only" allows those you designate to enter, it also doesn't state that the door allows anybody other than those you designate to enter. Since this is a nonphysical doorway into a demiplane, it by default allows only those who have some means of moving onto a demiplane to gain access (and not via that door). Those who are designated GAIN the use of the door to enter the demiplane.

So no, the door doesn't stop anybody not designated from entering. Their own inability to get into the demiplane without assistance keeps them from entering. The door doesn't grant them special ability to enter that demiplane if they're not designated.

So the "only" is implicit; you have to remember that the door's "allow"ing of people into the demiplane is a granting of capability that they may or may not already have. If they already have it, they don't need the door. But if they lack it and are not designated as those the door allows through, they still lack any means of entering the demiplane.

[SharkForce]

Indeed. While nothing says that the door "only" allows those you designate to enter, it also doesn't state that the door allows anybody other than those you designate to enter. Since this is a nonphysical doorway into a demiplane, it by default allows only those who have some means of moving onto a demiplane to gain access (and not via that door). Those who are designated GAIN the use of the door to enter the demiplane.

So no, the door doesn't stop anybody not designated from entering. Their own inability to get into the demiplane without assistance keeps them from entering. The door doesn't grant them special ability to enter that demiplane if they're not designated.

So the "only" is implicit; you have to remember that the door's "allow"ing of people into the demiplane is a granting of capability that they may or may not already have. If they already have it, they don't need the door. But if they lack it and are not designated as those the door allows through, they still lack any means of entering the demiplane.

pretty much, yes.

if you have some way of scrying into a demiplane, or traveling to a demiplane, nothing in the description blocks those things.

obviously, if you don't have those things (and most people won't), this won't help you in the slightest.