Knowledge Devotion and Ability Damage

[EdRed]

Hey Playgrounders,

my question today is pretty straight forward:
How does Knowledge Devotion work when combined with/applied to ability damage by RAW?

Since this could possibly differ depending on the source let's take Ray of stupidity and Poison as examples.

[Efrate]

By RAW yes. Knowledge Devotion applies to damage, and ability damage is a specific type of defined in game damage. Poisons (most of them anyways) do ability damage. Ability drain for the ones that do it I believe is defined differently so it would not work with that. As for ray of stupidity yes, since it does intelligence damage. Both instances stack as well since there is no caveat otherwise, and it is damage not a penalty. So multiple castings or split ray/twin spell, and primary and secondary damage from poisons and each additional application.

That being said, I have yet to meet a DM that would allow it because it makes a very good already option REALLY REALLY good. A second level spell that does 10 int damage no save? Yeah, not gonna fly.

Realistically any effect that deals HP damage I would allow it on, like the one poison that does 2d12 regular HP damage, but not on the ability damage or it gets very silly very fast. At level 5 without anything in particular can easily hit +4 or 5 without trying that hard. Collector of stories, a MW tool, 8 ranks, a +5 ability score is +20 already, not counting spells or class abilities that give other bonuses. And I would not call that high op.

My groups are fairly low op though so YMMV. In a land of all CoDzillas, wish looping, NI minions or abusing WBL to get NI wealth go for it.

[Crake]

Hey Playgrounders,

my question today is pretty straight forward:
How does Knowledge Devotion work when combined with/applied to ability damage by RAW?

Since this could possibly differ depending on the source let's take Ray of stupidity and Poison as examples.

Ability damage is defined as a type of "damage", to which knowledge devotion does apply to. Ray of stupidity would totally work with it, without debate, though your DM may opt to houserule it, because it's an obscenely powerful combination throughout most of the game, hell, ray of stupidity on it's own is pretty disgusting, using 4 of them we managed to take out a very old red dragon in the first round (plus a surprise round, we won initiative), 2 empowered rays and 2 quickened rays cast by a 12th level sorcerer. Making that spell even more powerful is not recommended.

With poison on the other hand. Many will argue that knowledge devotion does not apply to poison unless it's a special quality of your character, via a stinger or the like, because the argument is then that you aren't rolling the damage, but the poison is. This is further augmented by the idea that you cannot take ability focus for the poison, and it's DC is set, though a counter argument to this is that wands share all those same qualities when you use them, but they are generally considered to be rolled by the wielder. Up to your DM.

[Deophaun]

With poison on the other hand. Many will argue that knowledge devotion does not apply to poison unless it's a special quality of your character, via a stinger or the like, because the argument is then that you aren't rolling the damage, but the poison is. This is further augmented by the idea that you cannot take ability focus for the poison, and it's DC is set, though a counter argument to this is that wands share all those same qualities when you use them, but they are generally considered to be rolled by the wielder. Up to your DM.
Due to capitalization, I think the question is about poison, the Clr 4/Dru 3 necromancy spell, not the stuff you buy in a back alley from a halfling with bad teeth and a twitchy eye.

[martixy]

I've always interpreted unqualified references to "damage" to mean specifically "hp damage", separate from the concept of "ability damage".

But, as noted, by RAW you have a solid case for the other side as well.

[LordOfCain]

Due to capitalization, I think the question is about poison, the Clr 4/Dru 3 necromancy spell, not the stuff you buy in a back alley from a halfling with bad teeth and a twitchy eye.

Hey, my halfling had a hook for a hand and an eyepatch... Don't stereotype!

[Thurbane]

Can you add Sneak Attack dice to the likes of Ray of Stupidity?

[Zanos]

Can you add Sneak Attack dice to the likes of Ray of Stupidity?
No.

A successful precision damage attack with a weaponlike spell deals extra damage of the same type as the spell normally deals unless that spell deals ability damage or ability drain, or it bestows negative levels. Spells that fall into these categories instead deal extra hit point damage in the form of negative energy.

Knowledge Devotion is not precision damage however, and even explicitly works on an undead creature in the given example.

[Flickerdart]

Can you add Sneak Attack dice to the likes of Ray of Stupidity?

I believe this has a specific rule - SA dice added to energy drain, or ability damage or drain, deal negative energy damage.

[flappeercraft]

By RAW it seems like you can but it will probably be ruled away by any sane DM.

[Necroticplague]

Hey Playgrounders,

my question today is pretty straight forward:
How does Knowledge Devotion work when combined with/applied to ability damage by RAW?
Yes. The definition of 'damage' is fairly broad, but very clearly includes ability damage, even ignoring it's name.

damage

A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage.

However, as you pointed out, source is important, but only because of how Knowlege Devotion works: You get the bonus to damage. So poisons or magic items won't get the bonus, but anything with you yourself as the source will (note that, for many magic items, it's worded so they merely enable the carrier/wielder/user to do something, so the source is still 'you', even if you only have that ability because of a magic item).

[EdRed]

Allright, thanks for everyone's input on this!