How to build a gish with throwing weapons?

[Das_Tabby]

Hello again playground~
Today I'm asking you about an idea I just had a few hours ago when I examined the Arms and Equipment Guide and found chakrams in there. Also I'm finally playing Kingdom Hearts 3D right now.
If you know the KH series you might already know what I'm thinking off, if you don't, let me tell you it has a character named Axel who's able to manipulate fire and throws his burning chakrams at his enemys.

And that's what I want to build, at least somehow. But I'm not sure if it's possible. I don't know much about throwing weapons, what feats are requiered, and how well it "gishes" (is that even a word...?)

So, what would you recommend? What feats do I need? What spells do you recommend? Which base and prestige classes?
I would prefer sorcerer over wizard, simply because I like spontaneous spellcasters much more, but maybe you got some other suggestions? (To bad the Duskblades channeling abbility only affects melee weapons x.x)
And are there maybe some (desert wind) maneuvers usable with thrown weapons so a swordsage dip or even JPM could be worthwhile?

Know that I just want to know if it would be possible to build something similar to Axel in 3.5 and that I at least hope that I won't need a new character anytime soon
But just in case, here are the rules my group uses for character creation:

28 point buy, 2 Flaws & Traits allowed and no retraining
Allowed sources: Almost everything published by WotC that is part of Eberron or not part of a setting at all (so no FR!)
Also banned: most 3.0 books, BoED & BoVD

Also I'd like to keep the chakrams and the fire theme. I know that a lot of monsters have some sort of fire resistance, immunity and the like, and that there are probably better feats than "Exotic Weapon Profiency: Chakram", but I'm not looking for the most optimized variant possible, somehow good at what he's supposed to do will be enough.

So I'm looking forward to your suggestions :)

[ComaVision]

I've always wanted to do a build with the Fire Shuriken spell (refluff to chakrams?). You'd be a caster by necessity and there's a lot of flexibility in how you could build it. Plus, since it's a spell, you can metamagic the hell out of it to get around fire immunities (Searing Spell feat).

[Das_Tabby]

Hm, I guess there would be no problem to say the fire shuriken look like chakrams, and I actually like the picture
That would narrow me down to either Assassin (and/or hopefully Avenger as I don't like to play an evil character) or Wu Jen
The assassin theme would be kinda fitting for Axel, considering his position in the Organisation, but I think Wu Jen could offer me way more for the whole fire theme
Guess I have to take a closer look at the class, I never paid much attention to it

[Dagroth]

Well... you could always play a Psion (Suggest Psychokinesis) and go Pyrokineticist. Or a Psionic Warrior if you want more HP/BAB/Feats.

[Thurbane]

It'll cost caster levels, but Bloodstorm Blade? Maybe combine it with a fast casting progression PrC like Ur-Priest?

[flappeercraft]

battle sorcerer is a good ACF for gishes. Take levels in abjurant champion and then Wyrm wizard to get Surge of fortune. Get throwing vorpal pitspawned daggers and take levels in warblade. Now you throw vorpal throwing daggers that you only need to confirm criticals for and the target dies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ideal Gish build has a +16 BAB and 9th level spells at 20th level. Most characters don't reach 20th level, so it's best to have a target range of playable levels for any build.

Warblade 1/ Sorcerer or Wizard 4/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist? 6
15/20 spellcasting, 16 BAB

A Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage would be 18/20 spellcasting, for +16 BAB and 9ths at 20th level.

I'd probably go with an Illumian (Naenhoon) and use Wizard with a Fighter feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard), to persist high level buffs like Draconic Polymorph and Superior Invisibility.

Consider trading Sacred Exorcist 6 for something like Spellsword 1/ JPM 5, it's one less level of spellcasting but two more points of BAB and a few more maneuvers/stances.

Consider skipping the Warblade level and instead spending feats on Martial Study (which gets Balance as a class skill) and Martial Stance to qualify for Bloodstorm Blade. This recovers one level of spellcasting but loses one point of BAB unless you use Battle Sorcerer (don't use Battle Sorcerer).

For this type of character, I think it would be best to focus on a target range of playable levels instead of taking a weak start into a mediocre midgame to aim for high level buffing shenanigans.

[Gruftzwerg]

Telekinesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) maybe?^^
Sure it kicks in late (min. lvl9 since 5th grade) but can be a funny build.

[Das_Tabby]

Thank you all for your advice so far :smallsmile:
Thinking about it, 2 builds come to my mind, one more focused on spellcasting, and the other on "melee"

I'd like to get your opinions on both :)
So first, the one with more Spellcasting:

Human Rogue 1/ Wu Jen 6/Unseen Seer X/ Abjurant Champion X OR Spellwarp Sniper X

Starting Stats
Str 10 | Dex 16 | Con 14 | Int 16 | Wis 8 | Cha 8

Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot
Human Bonus: Precise Shot
Flaw: Combat Casting
Flaw: Some Metamagic or TWF?
Wu Jen 1 Bonus: Searing Spell
3rd: Knowledge Devotion maybe?
6th: Martial Study [Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt]
9th: Martial Stance [Assassin's Stance]
12th: Arcane Thesis [Fire Shuriken] maybe?
15th: Some Metamagic or Practiced Spellcaster
18th: see above

As you can see I'm not quite sure which (metamagic) feats to take. I'm considering: Quicken Spell, Sculpt Spell, Empower Spell and Echoing Spell, are there others I should consider?
I'm also unsure if I should go for Knowledge Devotion. I know how useful it is, especially given my not so perfect bab, but I think that the rogue-skills fit this character more than the knowledge skills... although I'll get a ton of skill-points with unseen seer
And is Arcane Thesis (on Fire Shuriken) a good idea? This whole built developed from the idea using this spell instead of actual chakrams, so i'll probably use it a lot.

And how I finish the built isn't clear, too. Should I take all 10 lvls of Unseen Seer? Or get out at 8 and take all 5 levels of either Abj Champ or Spellwarp Sniper? I know Abj Champ is THE gish class, granting better bab and HD, but Spellwarp Sniper would allow me to somehow advance my sneak attack a bit further (At least as long as I'm using ray spells...), also it would free up a feat at lvl 1 and I could get something else PBS based at Spell Snip 3

Also i'd like some clarifications:
1. Arcane Thesis reduces the MM cost of every feat by 1 for the chosen spell, right? So, if I cast an searing empowered fireball it would be lvl 4 instead of 6?
Just want to get sure I didn't miss the usual "You can't reduce the MM cost below 1"-part

2. Do I get the main spell of this build right? Let's asume my caster lvl is 6, so the spell would grant me 2 shuriken
I create them in Round 1 and then I can throw them one by one the following 2 rounds? (That's also where the TWF suggestions at lvl 1 is coming from)

3. That my SA damage is converted to fire probably still doesn't allow me to sneak attack undead an the like, does it?


Aaand the other one, mainly based on Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestions:

Illumian [Aeshkrau] Martial Wizard 5/ Warblade 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 5

Starting Stats:
Str 15 | Dex 15 | Con 14 | Int 14 | Wis 8 | Cha 8

Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot
Flaw: Precice Shot
Flaw: Combat Casting
Wizard 1 Bonus: TWF
3rd: Searing Spell
Wizard 5 Bonus: Exotic Weapon Profiency [Chakram]
6th: Power Attack
9th: Practiced Spellcaster
Bloodstorm Blade 3: Improved Initiative... maybe?

And on lvls 12, 15 and 18 I got absolutly no idea what else would be good. Maybe Quicken Spell somewhere on the way, and then maybe once or twice Martial Study or Stance for a few more maneuvers?
I'd really appreciate some more thoughts on that one

And yes, I swapped Spellsword for another lvl of wizard, I'm not such a huge fan of this heavy multiclassing and 1 lvl dipping. 3 prc's are enough in my oppinion

[ComaVision]

@Das_Tabby RE:Wu Jen build

1. That's correct.

2. That's right. They have no maximum duration though, so I'd be creating them before combat. Per the text, they disappear when they hit.

3. No, you still need to meet all the normal SA criteria.

[Calthropstu]

Just swing around a king's chair. Those count as throne weapons right?

My terrible pun aside, I think an unchained (if available) monk might be the way to go. Chakrams are monk weapons right? Would be pretty cool to flurry with, and you don't even need to switch for range/melee making it a good weapon specialization candidate.

[Das_Tabby]

@Das_Tabby RE:Wu Jen build

1. That's correct.

2. That's right. They have no maximum duration though, so I'd be creating them before combat. Per the text, they disappear when they hit.

3. No, you still need to meet all the normal SA criteria.

Thank you :)


Just swing around a king's chair. Those count as throne weapons right?

My terrible pun aside, I think an unchained (if available) monk might be the way to go. Chakrams are monk weapons right? Would be pretty cool to flurry with, and you don't even need to switch for range/melee making it a good weapon specialization candidate.
Isn't unchained PF specific? My Gm sometimes allows PF stuff, but I think that might be to much
Edit: and I think Chakrams aren't monk weapons, they are not part of the srd and i haven't seen a mention in AaEG

[weckar]

A Duskblade / Bloodstorm Blade could channel through his thrown weapons. Caster level down the toilet though.

[Calthropstu]

Thank you :)


Isn't unchained PF specific? My Gm sometimes allows PF stuff, but I think that might be to much
Edit: and I think Chakrams aren't monk weapons, they are not part of the srd and i haven't seen a mention in AaEG

Can't hurt to ask can it? Many view the unchained monk as one of the better attempts to fix many of the glaring problems of the class.

Chakrams are in the AaEG.

Unfortunatelyyou are correct. They are not monk weapons. Which is silly really.

[Das_Tabby]

A Duskblade / Bloodstorm Blade could channel through his thrown weapons. Caster level down the toilet though.
But I think it could be fun. Though one would have to wait for lvl 17 so you can full-attack with your thrown weapons and channel a spell while your at it


Can't hurt to ask can it? Many view the unchained monk as one of the better attempts to fix many of the glaring problems of the class.

Chakrams are in the AaEG.

Unfortunatelyyou are correct. They are not monk weapons. Which is silly really.
Hm, but I just found something better... :D Cutting Wheels from Secrets of Sarlona. I think they are an even better resemblence for Axels chakrams, as you can throw them, and use them in melee... and they are usable with flurry of blows if a monk gets himself the exotic weapon profiency feat

But I think my personal favorite is the Wu Jen build with the Fire Shuriken spell

[noce]

No one mentioned Chakram Ricochet feat.
It's from Champions of Ruin (Faerûn). It's unfair you can't take a feat just because it has been printed in a book for another setting.

Also, Shar has Chakram as favored weapon. Oops, Faerûn, sorry.

As for races: Neraph from Planar Handbook is a quite good gish race, being an outsider. On the plus side, they're proficient with the Annulat, that is pretty much identical to a Chakram.

[Thurbane]

A Duskblade / Bloodstorm Blade could channel through his thrown weapons. Caster level down the toilet though.

Duskblade/Bloodstorm Blade/Urpriest or Duskblade/Bloodstorm Blade/Suel Arcanamach?

[heavyfuel]

I've always wanted to do a build with the Fire Shuriken spell (refluff to chakrams?). You'd be a caster by necessity and there's a lot of flexibility in how you could build it. Plus, since it's a spell, you can metamagic the hell out of it to get around fire immunities (Searing Spell feat).

Is this te build that you get a bunch of shurikens by using your spells slots because its an instantaneous spell?

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt it only instantaneous conjurations that follow this rule?

[Rebel7284]

What about the whirling blade spell? Perhaps echoing spell it for more uses.

[Zaq]

Is this te build that you get a bunch of shurikens by using your spells slots because its an instantaneous spell?

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt it only instantaneous conjurations that follow this rule?

I've always thought that the Fire Shuriken would stick around, though yours is an argument I hadn't encountered before. Are you saying that Fire Shuriken is intended to allow you to launch the resulting shuriken as part of the action to cast the spell? If that's the case, then the spell is dysfunctional, because the spell's range is 0 ft, so the shuriken can't actually be launched farther than your own square.

If one is playing in a game in which Fire Shuriken do stick around, though, it's likely worthwhile to invest in a wand of them, at least unless one has a very large amount of downtime.