Critcals hit. what of my stuff gets Multiplied

[Nosta]

so a little curious My pc uses a Great spear with A Crit of 20 X4
I'd Like to Know what of my Bonuses Get Mulitplied

I know the base Damage of the weapon Dose (the 2d6) So Dose My STR mod to Damage and so dose my weapon Bonus

But Dose my weapon Training bonus from my fighter class and the same with power attack do these quadruple


Second question Related to some Maneuvers from path of war. such as ruby zenith strike from scarlet throne
it says it attack pans out your damaged is tripled. (what all is tripled) Power attack? Weapon Training


I like to have something to show my Gm when the time comes (just in case we disagree)

[Crake]

so a little curious My pc uses a Great spear with A Crit of 20 X4
I'd Like to Know what of my Bonuses Get Mulitplied

I know the base Damage of the weapon Dose (the 2d6) So Dose My STR mod to Damage and so dose my weapon Bonus

But Dose my weapon Training bonus from my fighter class and the same with power attack do these quadruple


Second question Related to some Maneuvers from path of war. such as ruby zenith strike from scarlet throne
it says it attack pans out your damaged is tripled. (what all is tripled) Power attack? Weapon Training


I like to have something to show my Gm when the time comes (just in case we disagree)

Any flat-damage bonus is multiplied. Extra damage dice beyond the base weapon damage are not. That is the general rule, there are exceptions, for example, sneak attack is not multiplied on a crit, so craven, which increases sneak attack damage by a flat number, is still not multiplied. Same goes for maneuvers which add flat damage, since they're specifically called out as not being multiplied. I'm not sure if there are any sources of additional damage dice which are explicitly called out to be multiplied on a critical hit, but there probably are.

also, does is spelt like that, a dose is a portion size, like a dose of medicine, or a dose of poison.

[Darrin]

Any flat-damage bonus is multiplied. Extra damage dice beyond the base weapon damage are not. That is the general rule, there are exceptions, for example, sneak attack is not multiplied on a crit, so craven, which increases sneak attack damage by a flat number, is still not multiplied.


I disagree. First, the general rule from PHB p. 134:

"Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage (see Multiplying, page 304)."

There is an exception for extra damage DICE (same page):

"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied."

I would argue that a modifier to sneak attack is still multiplied as per the general rule.



Same goes for maneuvers which add flat damage, since they're specifically called out as not being multiplied. I'm not sure if there are any sources of additional damage dice which are explicitly called out to be multiplied on a critical hit, but there probably are.


Tome of Battle isn't entirely clear on this, but as per the text on page 43:

"You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack."

So, if you agree that damage modifiers to sneak attack are multiplied, then damage modifiers from maneuvers work the same way. So long as they are expressed as "+X" rather than "+NdX", then they should be multiplied.

OP: It's complicated. You have to separate your bonus damage into five different pools:

1) Base weapon damage. The number of dice you roll is multiplied, but not the result. Example: Greatspear (from Complete Warrior) is a 2d6/x3 weapon for a medium character. On a crit, you roll 6d6 (three times 2d6) and that's your base weapon damage. (Note: some groups just multiply this initial roll as a house rule because it's quicker.)

2) Strength modifier. This is multiplied by the weapon's "handedness": primary one-handed weapons get a x1.0 multiplier. Two-handed gets a x1.5 multiplier. Offhand and secondary weapons get a x0.5 multiplier. If you have an additional multiplier, you "add" it to your base Str modifier. It's not clear if the kooky multiplication rules apply here, but I'm not seeing any indication that they shouldn't. So, if you're adding a x2 multiplier to your Str bonus, it should follow the same pattern as "x2 + x2 = x3": x1.0 + x2 = x2, x1.5 + x2 = x2.5, x0.5 + x2 = x1.5. For a Greatspear, I think the multiplier would be x3.5.

3) Power Attack bonus damage. This has to be calculated separately because it's based on whether the weapon is one-handed or two-handed, and Leap Attack may change this multiplier. Leap Attack only affects your damage bonus from Power Attack. And while this would normally be somewhat easy to figure out, some idiot didn't think it was confusing enough so they added some errata to Complete Adventurer, and then failed to notice two things: first, the original text was clear enough if you already understood the kooky multiplication rules, and second, they only changed how one-handed damage is multiplied. Your Power Attack multipliers should be x2, x3, x4, etc., although Leap Attack or Improved Power Attack (from Frenzied Berzerker) may muck that up a bit. For a Greatspear, x2 (two-handed) + x3 (crit) = x4.

4) Extra damage modifiers. Any damage bonus that falls outside of Str bonus or Power Attack that can be expressed as a "flat" modifier. This can still be a "variable" that's determined by a formula, your class levels, etc., but can still be expressed as "+X" where X is an integer. These modifiers are multiplied as per the kooky multiplier rules: x2 + x2 = x3. On a Greatspear with no other multipliers, these modifiers should be at x3. Craven should fall here, as should any maneuver with a flat damage bonus, such as Battle Leader's Charge.

5) Extra damage dice. This includes sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish dice, weapon properties such as flaming/frost/holy/bane/etc., psychic strike, and so on. These are not multiplied, but modifiers to this damage should still fall under category 4.


I'm not familiar with Ruby Zenith Strike or Weapons Training, so I don't think I can give you a more definitive answer other than what I've listed above.

[Crake]

I disagree. First, the general rule from PHB p. 134:

"Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage (see Multiplying, page 304)."

There is an exception for extra damage DICE (same page):

"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied."

I would argue that a modifier to sneak attack is still multiplied as per the general rule.

This comes down entirely to how you interpret craven. If, as you do, you view it as "a modifier to sneak attack", then you absolutely do not multiply it on critical hit, as sneak attack specifically says that it is not multiplied on a critical hit, so any modifiers to sneak attack, flat or not, will not be multiplied. Even if you had some way to change sneak attack from dice to a single, flat number, just like maneuvers, sneak attacks are explicitly called out in their entry as not being mutliplied, regardless of how it's being presented.

Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Now, there is one way craven could be applied, and that is by reading the craven feat not as granting extra sneak attack damage but rather extra damage while sneak attacking. The way its written leaves it open to be interpreted either way:

when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.
The way it's written the extra damage could be read as both being part of "sneak attack" damage, or not. Personally, as a DM, I read it as being a part of the sneak attack bonus damage, and as you wrote above, it seems so do you. If you do read it that way, then you should not be multiplying it on a critical hit, but if you read it as simply an additional source of damage that is simply triggered by sneak attack, then it would multiply on a critical hit. I honestly don't see many people reading it that way though.

[flappeercraft]

As crake said, flat out bonuses and weapon damage dice. Bonuses to extra dice that would not apply usually auch as Craven like Crake mentioned, do not apply either. Exceptions are stuff like augment crystals and spells that add flat out bonuses which usually don't apply.