How do bloodlines from UA work? (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So I just read the bloodlines from UA since a player in my current campaign wanted to use them and I don't fully understand how it works so we just kinda tried to figure out how it would work. Could anyone explain to me how they work and how they work with regular leveling?

[Telonius]

So I just read the bloodlines from UA since a player in my current campaign wanted to use them and I don't fully understand how it works so we just kinda tried to figure out how it would work. Could anyone explain to me how they work and how they work with regular leveling?

Bloodlines are some of the messiest rules items in all of UA. Self-quote, but this is the best explanation I've ever been able to piece together:


The rules are a pretty heaping mess, but here's what I've been able to piece together as how it's supposed to work. This is my interpretation only; your DM will have to rule on whatever you come up with. I'm assuming a regular PHB race, with nothing weird like Racial Hit Dice, Templates, or any kind of Level Adjustment.

Level
1 Binder1 (ECL 1)
- Gain 1000 xp -
2 Binder2 (ECL 2)
- Gain 2000 xp -
(3) Major Bloodline/I'mNotActuallyARealLevel1 (ECL 2)
- Gain 3000 xp
3 Binder3 (ECL 3)

I'mNotActuallyARealLevel does give you a few things. It allows you an additional +1 to your maximum ranks in class skills (when you take you next real level). It increases your Caster Level by 1 for all spells. (Note that this is Caster Level only; it doesn't give you any additional spells known or spells per day. It mostly matters to spell damage and duration, as well as a couple of other things). Effective Character Level is defined as Character Level plus racial hit dice plus level adjustment. INAARL does not actually grant a level, and isn't a racial hit die or a level adjustment, so it doesn't count against it.

If you take a Bloodline, you will not reach Epic before you get to level 21. You'll need a higher XP total than usual to hit 21, since you'll have spent some amount of XP reaching INAARL 3.

Most Prestige Classes advance the casting of the original class, rather than granting a list of their own. The PrC isn't affected by INAARL. If you had a Wizard15/Archmage4/INAARL3, both the Archmage and INAARL modify Wizard; so the caster level would be 22. There are some Prestige Classes that don't work like that - Ur-Priest, and any of the others that give a unique spell list. Those classes would count just as though they were their own spellcasting class. So if you were to somehow get a Bard10/Assassin8/INAARL3, you'd have a caster level of 13 for the Bard and 11 for the Assassin.


EDIT: The closest parallel I've been able to figure for it would be something like the MM1 Half-races. While they have a static Level Adjustment, their CRs vary depending on how many hit dice they have. Increasing the CR doesn't do much for them, it's just a bookkeeping thing. Similar thing going on with Bloodlines. At various hitdice, you wait a bit longer to level up; but they throw you a bone on caster level and skill point cap so it doesn't hurt quite so bad.


Full thread on that is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472318-3-5-Bloodlines-After-a-week-of-research-I-still-don-t-get-them).

[Segev]

"How do Bloodlines from UA work?" "Poorly."

But yeah, the first reply-post is a pretty good one. There are lots of ways to interpret it.

[flappeercraft]

So from what I understand from these replies, its just bonuses for an XP tax?

[Segev]

So from what I understand from these replies, its just bonuses for an XP tax?

That's one way to interpret it. The way it seems designed for, to me, is that it's bonuses for a LEVEL tax. Bloodline levels really are a thing. They eat up a level, but only give the bonuses listed, which explicitly exclude HD, BAB, saves, and skill points.

[Kahlendrrari]

I wouldn't consider them a tax, as messily written as they are, they never specify that you "pay" the xp. At 3rd level when you have to take the "bloodline level" you still have 3,000 xp, which qualifies you for 3rd level still, so you still reach 3rd level, you just happen to have a little extra oomph.

Here is a topic I brought up a while ago: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390327-I-think-my-brain-might-have-melted-reading-about-bloodlines&p=18590657#post18590657

[Troacctid]

They don't work. The rules for them do not function.

[Segev]

They don't work. The rules for them do not function.

While I did joke about that, they DO function. They're just interpretable in a couple of ways. I think only one of them is really a functional way, but that is a sore spot of great debate, so I won't press it here. But they do function, if you don't insist on reading them in a non-functional way.

[Dagroth]

Bloodlines are some of the messiest rules items in all of UA. Self-quote, but this is the best explanation I've ever been able to piece together:

Full thread on that is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472318-3-5-Bloodlines-After-a-week-of-research-I-still-don-t-get-them).

I think you have it wrong. The stated point of the UA Bloodline levels are spreading a the effect (ECL) and bonuses of a Level Adjust out over the course of a character's career.

Character begins. Declares he has a Major Celestial Bloodline, and wants to build a terrible mess of a character.

Level 1 - Cleric 1
Gain 1000 xp
Level 2 - Cleric 2
Gain 2000 xp
Level 3 - Bloodline 1 (gain no HP, no skill points, no new spells, no BAB. But you do gain +1 CL)
Gain 3000 xp
Level 4 - Wizard 1 (Gains +1 CL for Wizard because of Bloodline level)
Gain 4000 xp
Level 5 - Wizard 2
Gain 5000 xp
Level 6 - Bloodline 2 (gain no HP, no skill points, no new spells, no BAB. But you do gain another +1 CL)

At this point, you're a Cleric-2/Wizard-2/Bloodline-2 You have spells known and spells per day as a 2nd level Cleric & 2nd level Wizard, but your caster level for both classes is 4. And you are a 6th level Character.

Gain 6000 xp
Level 7 - Rogue 1 (Because of the two levels of Bloodline boost, you get an extra +1d6 Sneak Attack!)
Gain 7000 xp
Level 8 - Rogue 2
Gain 8000 xp
Level 9 - Monk 1
Gain 9000 xp
Level 10 - Monk 2
Gain 10,000 xp
Level 11 - Bard 1
Gain 12,000 xp
Level 12 - Bloodline 3

At this point, you're a Cleric-2/Wizard-2/Rogue-2/Monk-2/Bard-1/Bloodline-3

Your caster level for Cleric & Wizard is now 5. You're doing backstab damage as a 5th level Rogue (+3d6). You have the Unarmed Damage (1d8), AC Bonus (Wis +1), and Fast Movement bonus (+10") of a 5th level Monk. You don't have the other Class Abilities that a Monk gets (like Still Mind or Slow Fall). You have the spells known and spells per day of a 1st level Bard, but a Caster Level of 4. Your Bardic Knowledge Check is 4+Int modifier. You have 4 uses of Bardic Music per day, but you cannot use Inspire Competence because you're not actually a 3rd level Bard.

Oh, and you have a BAB of +4 :smallbiggrin:

I hope that makes sense, because that's certainly how it's written in the book.

[lylsyly]

Try this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5019.msg71432#msg71432) little thread

[Dagroth]

Huh... Never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense when compared to LA buy-off.

So my sample character would be:


Level 1 - Cleric 1
Gain 1000 xp
Level 2 - Cleric 2
Gain 2000 xp
Spend 2000 xp, Get Bloodline 1 (gain no HP, no skill points, no new spells, no BAB. But you do gain +1 CL)
Gain 2000 xp
Level 3 - Wizard 1 (Gains +1 CL for Wizard because of Bloodline level)
Gain 3000 xp
Level 4 - Wizard 2
Gain 4000 xp
Level 5 - Rogue 1
Gain 5000 xp
Spend 5000xp, Get Bloodline 2 (gain no HP, no skill points, no new spells, no BAB. But you do gain another +1 CL)

At this point, you're a Cleric-2/Wizard-2/Rogue-1/Bloodline-2 You have spells known and spells per day as a 2nd level Cleric & 2nd level Wizard, but your caster level for both classes is 4. And you are a 5th level Character.

Gain 5000 xp
Level 6 - Rogue 2
Gain 6000 xp
Level 7 - Monk 1
Gain 7000 xp
Level 8 - Monk 2
Gain 8000 xp
Level 9 - Bard 1
Gain 9,000 xp
Level 10 - Bard 2
Gain 10,000 xp
Level 11 - Psychic Warrior 1
Gain 11,000 xp
Spend 11,000 xp, Get Bloodline 3

At this point, you're a Cleric-2/Wizard-2/Rogue-2/Monk-2/Bard-2/Psychic Warrior-1/Bloodline-3

Your caster level for Cleric, Wizard and Bard is now 5. Your Manifester level for your single Psychic Warrior power is 3, but you probably don't have enough power points to make use of that yet. Your Bardic Knowledge Check is 5+Int modifier. You have 5 uses of Bardic Music per day, but you cannot use Inspire Competence because you're not actually a 3rd level Bard.

You're an 11th level character who has earned 84,000 xp total, but you only have 55,000 xp. Though you're probably only ~12-13k (instead of 19k) xp behind your party, because of the rules for gaining xp vs. CR.

You also only have a BAB of +5 :smallbiggrin:

[Zombimode]

I a Player would Approach me with the wish to take a bloodline, this is how I would rule it:

You get a level in the Bloodline. You get all the listed benefits. Your HD for the level defaults to your type. Your class skills for the Level are only those you have racial bonuses to (suck it up, humans!) (plus those that are always a class skill for your charackter, like the one Knowledge skill with Knowledge Devotion).

So instead of the horrible mess of a character in Telonius post, you would be a Binder 3 / Bloodline 1, and with that an ECL 4 character (before LA and RHD).

[ComaVision]

Dagroth's last post is how I understand and implement bloodlines in my games.

[Zanos]

Can you take bloodline levels before they're required?

[Segev]

Dagroth's last post is how I understand and implement bloodlines in my games.It is one of the ways to read it. I think it makes bloodline "levels" too much of a pure benefit, since it allows you to increase your skill cap and CLs for multiple classes for just an expenditure of XP, which, given "XP is a river," means you're coming out EVEN MORE ahead than somebody without bloodline levels. They become something worth having even if you don't have the bloodline benefits!

The more balanced way to handle it, in my mind, is to actually have the bloodline levels count towards your ECL. They're STILL amazingly good for multi-class builds, because they add to every CL and other class-level-dependent calculation you have. But now when you take that bloodline level after level 2, you ARE an ECL 3 character, with skill caps of an ECL 3 character, but no extra skill points, no BAB, no save increases, and no extra HD for that level.

Because Bloodlines continue to scale with level, I find LA-buyoff rules to be somewhat inappropriate for them.


Can you take bloodline levels before they're required?
Absolutely. You can even refuse to take them when required; it just costs to do so.

[Zanos]

Under the interpretation that they don't increase ECL, you could spend 3000 XP for a +3 effective level bonus by taking your 2nd "level" as your bloodline each time.

[martixy]

Having established that they are an absolute heaping mess, what is everyone's opinion on fixing them?

For example:
Minor = feat
Intermediate = 1LA(at L6)
Major = 2LA

The other option is to make them RHD with the extra benefits.
With or without the CL/class abilities increase. Possibly 5 levels worth of bloodline benefits per RHD level(meaning minor = 1, inter = 2, major = 4).
Or make them into an actual 3-level bloodline class(like the paragon classes).

[Segev]

Personally, the only reason I joke that they work poorly is because there are so many ways to interpret the RAW. I think that using the interpretation where the bloodline levels actually increase your ECL is quite workable and not overly broken.

[Bavarian itP]

You also only have a BAB of +5 :smallbiggrin:

That's not particularly the Bloodlines fault; it's just how multiclassing works (unless you use fractional bonuses).

[ComaVision]

It is one of the ways to read it. I think it makes bloodline "levels" too much of a pure benefit, since it allows you to increase your skill cap and CLs for multiple classes for just an expenditure of XP, which, given "XP is a river," means you're coming out EVEN MORE ahead than somebody without bloodline levels. They become something worth having even if you don't have the bloodline benefits!

The more balanced way to handle it, in my mind, is to actually have the bloodline levels count towards your ECL. They're STILL amazingly good for multi-class builds, because they add to every CL and other class-level-dependent calculation you have. But now when you take that bloodline level after level 2, you ARE an ECL 3 character, with skill caps of an ECL 3 character, but no extra skill points, no BAB, no save increases, and no extra HD for that level.

Because Bloodlines continue to scale with level, I find LA-buyoff rules to be somewhat inappropriate for them.


I don't think it's powerful enough to warrant taking a level. The floor is too low like that, and I could see players of mine really setting their characters back because they liked the fluff and didn't recognize that it was a detriment to their character (as certainly a lot of builds wouldn't get much benefit from it, particularly the ones that already have problems).

If all the PCs in my games started taking bloodlines I'd have to reevaluate but it's certainly not the case right now, even with the more favourable reading. Of course, what works for my game isn't necessarily going to work for everyone.


Under the interpretation that they don't increase ECL, you could spend 3000 XP for a +3 effective level bonus by taking your 2nd "level" as your bloodline each time.

Theoretically, though you'd be playing with a level 4 group with 1 HD. If you're making a higher level character and doing this to reduce the xp spent then that's its own issue.

[Zanos]

Theoretically, though you'd be playing with a level 4 group with 1 HD. If you're making a higher level character and doing this to reduce the xp spent then that's its own issue.
They'd be just at the bottom of 3rd, but yeah. You would be getting more XP from having a lower ECL, though.

[Segev]

I don't think it's powerful enough to warrant taking a level. The floor is too low like that, and I could see players of mine really setting their characters back because they liked the fluff and didn't recognize that it was a detriment to their character (as certainly a lot of builds wouldn't get much benefit from it, particularly the ones that already have problems).

If all the PCs in my games started taking bloodlines I'd have to reevaluate but it's certainly not the case right now, even with the more favourable reading. Of course, what works for my game isn't necessarily going to work for everyone.

Then you're essentially saying that those who don't take bloodlines are going to be weaker than those who do. Not just because bloodlines are granting bonuses for which they're ultimately not paying any real price, but because they actually gain bonuses that are otherwise only gained on level-up by spending small amounts of XP.

Would you allow a magic item crafter to craft an item that gave the benefits of a bloodline level (not even the bloodline abilities, just what you get when you gain a bloodline level) for 1000 xp?

That would include: +1 to all skill rank caps and +1 to all CLs and other class-level-dependent calculations for EVERY class they have.

If you would allow them to make a stackable item of this sort (even with a cap of 3 maximum stacks) for 1000 XP per item, then you believe that bloodline levels are balanced as their own reward.

That still doesn't account for the bloodline powers.

[ComaVision]

Then you're essentially saying that those who don't take bloodlines are going to be weaker than those who do. Not just because bloodlines are granting bonuses for which they're ultimately not paying any real price, but because they actually gain bonuses that are otherwise only gained on level-up by spending small amounts of XP.

You could say the same thing about small amounts of LA, yet LA buyoff is basically assumed on the boards.


Would you allow a magic item crafter to craft an item that gave the benefits of a bloodline level (not even the bloodline abilities, just what you get when you gain a bloodline level) for 1000 xp?

That would include: +1 to all skill rank caps and +1 to all CLs and other class-level-dependent calculations for EVERY class they have.

If you would allow them to make a stackable item of this sort (even with a cap of 3 maximum stacks) for 1000 XP per item, then you believe that bloodline levels are balanced as their own reward.

No, mainly because there is no precedent for magic items with those effects (that I am aware of). I've never allowed the creation of a custom magic item yet.


That still doesn't account for the bloodline powers.

Which are pretty underwhelming compared to a lot of templates.

I'm not that concerned about balance. There are certainly much larger problems than a favourable reading of bloodlines. All I care about is that it adds more options for players to realize their character concept and isn't so powerful as to essentially be mandatory.

[Zanos]

If we want to talk about interpretation is balanced, I don't think either is. Bloodlines not contributing to ECL makes them a pretty strong power bump for close to no cost, but treating them like LA makes them so bad that nobody is ever going to take them. Casters are going to avoid them even if they get CL increases because it will delay spell levels, and martial characters will avoid them because their abilities don't typically scale with their level anyway, so it's the same as a regular LA.


You could say the same thing about small amounts of LA, yet LA buyoff is basically assumed on the boards.
Is it? I usually see something along the lines of "Don't bother with LA unless your DM uses buyoff" rather than "LA is good because you can buy it off."

[Segev]

From an optimization standpoint, I'd take bloodlines - even with them counting towards ECL - on Hellfire Warlock builds, and on any multi-class build that had a number of things to advance based on class levels.

[lylsyly]

I know this is open to interpretation but ...
a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#tableBloodlineLevels).

I have always taken this to mean that you HAVE to take the bloodline level at that point (assuming you want to continue to get the benefits).

[atemu1234]

I know this is open to interpretation but ...

I have always taken this to mean that you HAVE to take the bloodline level at that point (assuming you want to continue to get the benefits).

That's only the sensible interpretation, but this is D&D: Where the RAW's made up and the words don't matter.

[Dagroth]

Can you take bloodline levels before they're required?

By strict RAW, you can. By RAI, you can't.

I think, to balance them, you could make them count against ECL, but they would give you a little more than they do. You would gain 0+Int skill points & 0+Con hit points at each BL level. +1 BAB on the second BL level (or +1/2 BAB per BL level if you're in to fractional BAB). +1 to saves on the second BL level and another +1 to saves on the third BL level... or maybe only +1 to saves on the third BL level (or +1/3 to Saves per BAB level if you're in to fractional Saves, too).

Edit: They would also treat all skills as cross-class unless you had something that made a skill always a class skill.