Is Andi wrong? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

zinycor

2017-02-21, 10:34 PM

...you missed every scene she was ever in after the one where she called Roy "big time hero guy," as far as I can tell.

#961 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html) Andi shows that she's troubled about Durkon, on which she is right.

#965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) First Bandana makes it seem like Andi is overstimating the damage the ship has taken, then she comments on how she doesn't think the haggle will go their way, on which she is wrong, but she had no reason to think it would, so I don't really see a problem here.

#988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi like every other crew member has been on working on the ship while Bandana got a lot of EXP and had a nice dinner with Haley. When she voices it, she is dismissed told to just do her job.

#990 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) The crew is not happy that they now are a "sky taxi"

#1028 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html) The crew complains about how they don't care or don't know about the saving the world thing, and how they are not getting paid for it. Only the subject of payment is adressed, which seems fair to the others but not enough for Andi. Personally I agree with her.

#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) We learn that Andi has a great love for the ship, has been a member of the crew for a longer time than Bandana and she feels that she should have been captain instead. Also, we see her chat with Belkar and give him the stakes he wanted.

#1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) Andi suggests a course of action, Bandana doesn't take it into consideration without explaining why.

#1057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) Andi is worried because Haley and V might be abandoning the crew to die, Bandana doesn't do any more explaining than saying "Calm down,I'm sure they know what they're doing"

#1062 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Bandana doesn't explain her motives to disregard Andi's advices, then claims that the whole thing is her fault. This leads to Andi's mutiny which I find to be completely fine, since Bandana has not shown a great leadership with her crew.

#1063 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) The crew finds out about the mutiny.

#1064 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html) First, she yells at Felix (sword in hand), admiting the mutiny and admiting that she didn't know if her actions were the best, and intimidates him. Then argues than age should have been the main criteria when choosing the captain while taking care that Bandana's body doesn't flap around on the deck and gets hurt. Then tries to come to an arrangement with the rest of the crew about their future actions (Which is more than Bandana ever did) but is interrupted by the guy at the wheel to make a split second decision.

#1065 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) Andi makes her decision, feels great about it, and then goes to check the engine herself (again, more than we have seen Bandana ever do)

#1066 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) This is what I don't get, so far every time that Andi disagreed with Bandana sh seemed to have genuine reasons for it. But on the last panels she states that she would have disagreed with anything bandana could have ever decided, which doesn't add up for me.

So, again... Did I miss something?

zinycor

2017-02-21, 10:40 PM

#1061 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html)

That's not the voice of reason, that's the voice of blind panic.

Missed that one, and bandana does explain why not to take the route Andi proposes. I don't blame Andi for being scared anyway.

Kish

2017-02-21, 10:40 PM

Yep! Definitely.

You can try taking off your Bad Bandana glasses and reading the ones you linked again if you want, but if that's supposed to be a challenge to convince you, I decline. Perhaps someone else will take you up on it.

Okay, I'll give you one example, which I will be pleasantly surprised if you don't bat away. The summary of #1028 should be, "The crew expresses concerns that they are not getting paid. Bandana points out that they are saving the world and Andi brings up that they haven't gotten details of what the world's being saved from; a couple of the Order make references to the crayon comics, and one member of the crew highlights that they're Neutral and generally profit-motivated. Roy offers them money, and Bandana makes an offer which the Order and all of the crew accept but Andi. Andi immediately changes her complaint, without acknowledging that it's not what she said to begin with, to 'we're pirates and shouldn't be acting as a ferry service at all,' and personally highlights the fact that she's the only member of the crew who considers that a valid complaint. This change illustrates right then that Andi was not going to accept anything Bandana did."

zinycor

2017-02-21, 10:44 PM

KorvinStarmast

2017-02-21, 10:55 PM

I have not challenged you, Sorry if I offended you in any way.
You asked if Andi is wrong, and on the presumption that you have read all of the comics up to now, to include where she stops doing her duty and attacks the captain with a wrench, I answer with a question:

do fish swim in water?

If you need any of that explained, you are invited to review each thread for the numbered strips beginning from the one before she whacks Bandana with a wrench.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-21, 10:58 PM

Ah, yes, classic bias. Two can play that game:

#961 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html) Andi does nothing about having a dangerous creature on board, failed to enquire what could be more dangerous than it, and is disrespectful to her client and the captain of the ship.

#965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) Andi is shown to not be a capable enough engineer to properly fix her own ship.

#988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi disrespects her captain, failing to address her by rank as required. Shows herself to be a racist. Then claims to have been doing her job, when it sounds all she did was stay out of better engineers' way. Her complain about Bandana's day is ridiculous, given B was in mortal danger while Andi was safe in the ship. Which she would know about, if she wasn't an egotistical, racist, ageist jerk.

#990 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) The majority of the crew is happy about the state of affairs, based on a small but likely representative sample.

#1028 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html) The crew brings their misgivings to the captain, who negotiates a better deal. Andi demonstrates her first show of incompetence as likely captain by failing to read the mood of the crew.

#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) We continue to see Andi's ageism & lack of respect for the duly appointed captain, and the fact that she thinks seniority is all that matters, and also that somehow fixing engines prepares you for leadership, which is of course absurd (especially since she does not seem to have a team).

#1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) Andi suggests a course of action that will get the world destroyed, which is so stupid a suggestion the captain ignores it out of hand. She also is seen failing to do her actual job.

#1057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) Andi continues to not do her job, instead casting doubt on everyone else's ability to do theirs, based on no evidence

#1062 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Andi continues to not do her job, instead trying to tell others how to do theirs, even though she clearly doesn't have a clue of how to do their job, and evidence keeps piling that she is barely capable of doing her own. She outright says that the chain of command places her above the captain, demonstrating once more her stupidity. She then points out actual engineering problems she could be addressing, but refuses to do so, becoming completely out of line. Then attacks her duly appointed captain,.

#1063 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) The crew finds out about the mutiny, and unlike zinycor et al. are horrified by the act.

#1064 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html) First, she yells at Felix (sword in hand), admiting the mutiny and admiting that she didn't know if her actions were the best, and intimidates him. Then argues than age should have been the main criteria when choosing the captain while taking care that Bandana's body doesn't flap around on the deck and gets hurt, but immediately shows the excuse to be just a self-serving lie and/or racism. She then fails to perform her duties as engineer, nor her duties as captain.

#1065 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) Andi makes a poor decission, convinces herself it was a good one, when it is obvious it wasn't, then abandons her post (if she was captain, that would be ground for her to be hanged), and suddenly remembers how to do her actual job.

#1066 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) All of the above is hammered over our heads once more.

So, again... Did I miss something?

Sure: "Then tries to come to an arrangement with the rest of the crew about their future actions (Which is more than Bandana ever did) "
You missed Bandana coming to arrangements with the crew, for one thing.

Grey Wolf

zinycor

2017-02-21, 10:59 PM

You asked if Andi is wrong, and on the presumption that you have read all of the comics up to now, to include where she stops doing her duty and attacks the captain with a wrench, I answer with a question:

do fish swim in water?

If you need any of that explained, you are invited to review each thread for the numbered strips beginning from the one before she whacks Bandana with a wrench.

I didn't really see the mutiny as a bad thing. In my opinion bandana so far had been a mediocre captain at best... But I guess I could have misinterpreted the comic.

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:04 PM

Ah, yes, classic bias. Two can play that game:

#961 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html) Andi does nothing about having a dangerous creature on board, failed to enquire what could be more dangerous than it, and is disrespectful to her client and the captain of the ship.

#965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) Andi is shown to not be a capable enough engineer to properly fix her own ship.

#988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi disrespects her captain, failing to address her by rank as required. Shows herself to be a racist. Then claims to have been doing her job, when it sounds all she did was stay out of better engineers' way. Her complain about Bandana's day is ridiculous, given B was in mortal danger while Andi was safe in the ship. Which she would know about, if she wasn't an egotistical, racist, ageist jerk.

#990 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) The majority of the crew is happy about the state of affairs, based on a small but likely representative sample.

#1028 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html) The crew brings their misgivings to the captain, who negotiates a better deal. Andi demonstrates her first show of incompetence as likely captain by failing to read the mood of the crew.

#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html) We continue to see Andi's ageism & lack of respect for the duly appointed captain, and the fact that she thinks seniority is all that matters, and also that somehow fixing engines prepares you for leadership, which is of course absurd (especially since she does not seem to have a team).

#1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) Andi suggests a course of action that will get the world destroyed, which is so stupid a suggestion the captain ignores it out of hand. She also is seen failing to do her actual job.

#1057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) Andi continues to not do her job, instead casting doubt on everyone else's ability to do theirs, based on no evidence

#1062 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Andi continues to not do her job, instead trying to tell others how to do theirs, even though she clearly doesn't have a clue of how to do their job, and evidence keeps piling that she is barely capable of doing her own. She outright says that the chain of command places her above the captain, demonstrating once more her stupidity. She then points out actual engineering problems she could be addressing, but refuses to do so, becoming completely out of line. Then attacks her duly appointed captain,.

#1063 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) The crew finds out about the mutiny, and unlike zinycor et al. are horrified by the act.

#1064 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1064.html) First, she yells at Felix (sword in hand), admiting the mutiny and admiting that she didn't know if her actions were the best, and intimidates him. Then argues than age should have been the main criteria when choosing the captain while taking care that Bandana's body doesn't flap around on the deck and gets hurt, but immediately shows the excuse to be just a self-serving lie and/or racism. She then fails to perform her duties as engineer, nor her duties as captain.

#1065 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) Andi makes a poor decission, convinces herself it was a good one, when it is obvious it wasn't, then abandons her post (if she was captain, that would be ground for her to be hanged), and suddenly remembers how to do her actual job.

#1066 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) All of the above is hammered over our heads once more.

Sure: "Then tries to come to an arrangement with the rest of the crew about their future actions (Which is more than Bandana ever did) "
You missed Bandana coming to arrangements with the crew, for one thing.

Grey Wolf

Seems fair. I may have overlooked a few things.

Koo Rehtorb

2017-02-21, 11:19 PM

Sometimes people need to be hit with a wrench. That's just the way it goes.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-21, 11:20 PM

Sometimes people need to be hit with a wrench. That's just the way it goes.

Yeah, it's a pity no-one actually did hit Andi with a wrench, or they wouldn't be in the mess they are, driving blindly away from the only way out of the ambush, either towards a dead end or worse, and with a ship being damaged by an incompetent.

GW

Rogar Demonblud

2017-02-21, 11:24 PM

Forget wrench, I'd rather hit her with one of the giants' economy sized greataxes.

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:25 PM

Sometimes people need to be hit with a wrench. That's just the way it goes.

I tend to agree with that, but maybe the Giant will give more convincing evidence to show that Andi was in the wrong. So far at least I think I understand why people think Andi isn't in the right.

Marlowe

2017-02-21, 11:30 PM

Then I must add you to the list of people who I, on no account, wish to be stuck in a tense situation with because you plainly have no clue.

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:33 PM

Then I must add you to the list of people who I, on no account, wish to be stuck in a tense situation with because you plainly have no clue.

what do you mean?

Yendor

2017-02-21, 11:33 PM

#965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) Andi is shown to not be a capable enough engineer to properly fix her own ship.

And snaps at Bandana for explaining the gnomes' assessment of the damage, as if it's Bandana's fault.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-21, 11:35 PM

what do you mean?

That if you really think the comic hasn't already presented convincing evidence of Andi's incompetence, you should not hold your breath for that state of affairs to change.

GW

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:38 PM

Okay, I'll give you one example, which I will be pleasantly surprised if you don't bat away. The summary of #1028 should be, "The crew expresses concerns that they are not getting paid. Bandana points out that they are saving the world and Andi brings up that they haven't gotten details of what the world's being saved from; a couple of the Order make references to the crayon comics, and one member of the crew highlights that they're Neutral and generally profit-motivated. Roy offers them money, and Bandana makes an offer which the Order and all of the crew accept but Andi. Andi immediately changes her complaint, without acknowledging that it's not what she said to begin with, to 'we're pirates and shouldn't be acting as a ferry service at all,' and personally highlights the fact that she's the only member of the crew who considers that a valid complaint. This change illustrates right then that Andi was not going to accept anything Bandana did."

Sorry I didn't see this message earlier since it was edited and I ddidn't see it until a few moments ago.

And yeah, the way that you summary the comic does seem to protray better the events in a factual and a literary way better than I did. Thanks for the input, hadn't thought of it that way.

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:49 PM

That if you really think the comic hasn't already presented convincing evidence of Andi's incompetence, you should not hold your breath for that state of affairs to change.

GW

Am not sure Marlowe referred to that, it seemed to me that he made a judgement on my personality or something like that.

Keltest

2017-02-21, 11:52 PM

Am not sure Marlowe referred to that, it seemed to me that he made a judgement on my personality or something like that.

The implication is that you believe Andi's behavior is appropriate for a crisis and, therefore, reflective on how you would act in a crisis (ie dangerously to those around you).

zinycor

2017-02-21, 11:53 PM

The implication is that you believe Andi's behavior is appropriate for a crisis and, therefore, reflective on how you would act in a crisis (ie dangerously to those around you).

OH! now I see it. Thanks.

Quild

2017-02-22, 08:47 AM

It reminds me of the complains about how Tarquin was introduced as a fantastic character to SUDDENLY WITHOUT ANY HINTS turn into a delusional B-villain.

#988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html) Andi like every other crew member has been on working on the ship while Bandana got a lot of EXP and had a nice dinner with Haley. When she voices it, she is dismissed told to just do her job.

While I disagree on everything, this one in particular is a plain mistake rather than a bias.
Andi does not say that every other crew member has been on working on the ship. Only her.
Felix, for instance, went to buy winter clothes in Tinkertown.

Bandana is chief engineer, maybe the only engineer on board. It was her job, duty and responsability to assist the gnomes on repairs. She even probably would have refused to let them work without her being here.

Kish

2017-02-22, 08:49 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-22, 08:57 AM

I'm actually unsure whether the implication is supposed to be that staying on the ship was part of Andi's job, or she went, "Let a bunch of grubby little gnomes who've already called my repair a jury-rig rampage over my engine unchecked? Forget it! I'm staying here getting in their way the whole time and acting martyred for it!"

Bandana does say that overseeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) was required. But since overseeing does not generally require a wrench or to get dirty, I think Andi did more than that and insisted on doing some of the repairs herself - yet another indication of her lack of leadership ability and of her trust issues (again, tinged with racism).

GW

KorvinStarmast

2017-02-22, 09:55 AM

I didn't really see the mutiny as a bad thing. In the middle of a battle is not the time to air petty personal grievances. Save it for after.

In my opinion bandana so far had been a mediocre captain at best.Look, nobody is going to be as good as Julio Scoundrel. He's got higher class levels, higher Charisma, and more experience. He picked who HE thought was the best acting Captain to follow his orders in strip 943: take the Order where they need to go. Bandana is doing a decent job of doing that, to include listening to her crew's grievance about pay and getting cash out of the order for her crew. you will note that this grievance was aired in a non combat situation ... and she handled it well enough. You will also note that Andi sucks badly as a chief engineer when it comes to major repair: she needs a non-engineer to help her get the repairs done for a fair price, the non-engineer being Haley. (In case you are not sure, when in Port the Chief Engineer is the main PoC with technical reps hired to come on board to affect repairs.) Also note that instead of micromanaging Andi, Bandana puts the repair effort in her hands: Bandana delegated appropriately to the technical expert.

But I guess I could have misinterpreted the comic. Yeah.

My core problem with Andi during this latest trial is that she's forgetting priorities. After 15 years on a pirate ship, you'd think she'd have a clue what the priorities are:
1-fight and win the battle by maneuver, pirate skills, combat skills, and excellent sailing
2 - address grievances with Captain after present danger has been taken care of.
3- for a pirate to go all cry baby over some blood shed (the three crewmen getting killed) means that Andi is a lousy pirate and it is another strike against her as a captain, or a prospective captain. That, it appears to me, is something that Julio knew about her (she being on his ship for 15 years) and so He Picked Somone Else to be Captain for a darned good reason.

Also, look up "The Peter Principle."

Recall that as the attack develops Bandana calls for a climb to get out of rock range. Bandana then makes a command decision: the calculated risk to increase speed as it will get them out of rock range sooner ... which decision helps to defeat at least one giant's leap attack. Bandana is responding to this hard situation by Using Her Head.
Andi is letting her emotions drive her.

Andi is wrong.

SavageWombat

2017-02-22, 10:27 AM

Bandana does say that overseeing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) was required. But since overseeing does not generally require a wrench or to get dirty, I think Andi did more than that and insisted on doing some of the repairs herself - yet another indication of her lack of leadership ability and of her trust issues (again, tinged with racism).

GW

In fairness, I don't think Mr. Scott would have allowed a bunch of strange engineers to repair the Enterprise's warp drive without him there. Because it's his ship. It's not a negative character trait to be protective of your work responsibilities.

atemu1234

2017-02-22, 10:47 AM

In fairness, I don't think Mr. Scott would have allowed a bunch of strange engineers to repair the Enterprise's warp drive without him there. Because it's his ship. It's not a negative character trait to be protective of your work responsibilities.

At the same time, if he was in a situation where repairs needed to be done quickly and competently, and Kirk (or the present first officer, given that our metaphorical 'Kirk' is on shore leave) trusted other engineers to help, Scotty would be perfectly fine with it.

Andi is a good engineer, but not good with dealing with people. Again, not captain material.

Kish

2017-02-22, 10:57 AM

Scotty might well say "screw shore leave, I'm staying to oversee the repair," but he wouldn't then say, "It's unfair that you all went on shore leave while I was stuck on the ship!"

(I'd also like to point out that Bandana's "fun XP-getting expedition" was mortal combat against a nastier cousin of Frankenstein's monster.)

Quild

2017-02-22, 11:04 AM

At the same time, if he was in a situation where repairs needed to be done quickly and competently, and Kirk (or the present first officer, given that our metaphorical 'Kirk' is on shore leave) trusted other engineers to help, Scotty would be perfectly fine with it.

Andi is a good engineer, but not good with dealing with people. Again, not captain material.

I don't think that Andi isn't good with people.
She acted perfectly fine with Roy and the Order. Even in #1028 while she was complaining at Bandana. And she managed thinks pretty well with Belkar in #1043.

I find it a little harsh to call her racist for complaining about a "swarm of grubby little gnomes". She's grubby herself and she may have had a rough day with them.

And moreover, she managed to get the crew with her against Bandana when talking about money and managed to handle them after stunning Bandana (maybe because they know better than doing a second mutiny, but still).

I'm enclined to think that Andi is a decent person that goes totally nuts when things are about Bandana.

Kish

2017-02-22, 11:06 AM

atemu1234

2017-02-22, 11:07 AM

I don't think that Andi isn't good with people.
She acted perfectly fine with Roy and the Order. Even in #1028 while she was complaining at Bandana. And she managed thinks pretty well with Belkar in #1043.

I find it a little harsh to call her racist for complaining about a "swarm of grubby little gnomes". She's grubby herself and she may have had a rough day with them.

And moreover, she managed to get the crew with her against Bandana when talking about money and managed to handle them after stunning Bandana (maybe because they know better than doing a second mutiny, but still).

I'm enclined to think that Andi is a decent person that goes totally nuts when things are about Bandana.

She doesn't have the temperament for captain work; sure, she's able to get the crew to work together. When they were already working together. While being attacked. On all sides. By Frost Giants. Already down three people.

Their actions aren't because they respect Andi as anything more than a competent engineer; their actions are for self-preservation, because they have literally no other viable options for the time being.

hroþila

2017-02-22, 11:12 AM

You know what they call "a decent person, but there's at least one innocent person out there who she is genuinely, no-joking willing to violently assault for no good reason"?

They call it "not a decent person."
That's not fair. Andi wasn't "willing to violently assault [Bandana] for no good reason", she "snapped violently for no good reason". Which is an extenuating circumstance, and the reason why "heat of passion" exists as a legal concept.

atemu1234

2017-02-22, 11:17 AM

That's not fair. Andi wasn't "willing to violently assault [Bandana] for no good reason", she "snapped violently for no good reason". Which is an extenuating circumstance, and the reason why "heat of passion" exists as a legal concept.

It's also not a total defense. You still face legal charges if you beat the crap out of someone if it was 'in the heat of passion', especially given the longstanding, one-sided, and quite frankly foolish nature of Andi's grudge against Bandana.

hroþila

2017-02-22, 11:18 AM

It's also not a total defense. You still face legal charges if you beat the crap out of someone if it was 'in the heat of passion', especially given the longstanding, one-sided, and quite frankly foolish nature of Andi's grudge against Bandana.
Of course it's not a total defense, it wasn't meant to be. Just setting the record straight about one very specific point.

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-02-22, 11:19 AM

The answer to this thread is a pretty simple, yes, she is wrong. I suppose if you've been viewing Andi as a voice of reason throughout the storyline, then you'd probably side with her here too, but I don't think she's really done much to show herself as that. All of her actions really are fairly selfish, with a front of pretending to care for the crew or the ship when really she just wants to go after Bandana.

I want to go back to the good old days when the most controversial thing about Andi was her name.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-22, 11:23 AM

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssss.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-22, 11:26 AM

I find it a little harsh to call her racist for complaining about a "swarm of grubby little gnomes". She's grubby herself and she may have had a rough day with them.

BS. And believe me, I do not use that acronym lightly. If she had a rough day, she could've accused them of being incompetent, or slow, or of padding their estimates and spending half the day doing nothing. There are plenty of ways to complain about independent contractors, as evidenced by the endless stand-up comedy routines about dealing with plumbers.

What she chose to do, however, was to make a comment about their race, rather than anything specifically about their work ethics, or results. Replace "gnome" with whatever racial epithet you want (since you are French, maybe "Tunisian"), and see how that measures in the racism quotient.

Grey Wolf

Kish

2017-02-22, 11:27 AM

Also, it blows your "in the heat of passion" defense if you, e.g., hide the body. Or stand over the person you hit over the head and tied to the mast, gloating about how right you were to hit her over the head.

Chantelune

2017-02-22, 12:13 PM

[List of strips]

So, again... Did I miss something?

I notice that one thing that often comes back here is "Bandana didn't explain things". Frankly, she shouldn't need to explain every little thing and decisions, especially in the heat of the moment.

For example, facing an urgent situation, the time it'd take to explain everything enough so that Andi is satisfied (which, in light of that last strip, is unlikely to happen at all considering she admit questioning her on principle more than out of valid concerns), it'd be way too late to actually resolve said situation. Same as the time Andi wasted arguing with Bandana is time she didn't spent on fixing the ship. And frankly, being chief engineer, it's not her place to question Bandana's every decision. I bet Andi would be pretty pissed if Felix came and tell her how she should fix the engines.

Also, as for the death of some of the crews and damages to the engines : come on ! they're sky pirates ! Does she really think attacking blimp wouldn't incurr any risk to both crew and ship ? I mean, Scoundrel himself sailed the ship right through Azure city's catapults for no other reason than delivering Elan with absolutely no gain for the ship and crew. And knowing Roy, I think he'll be willing to help them raise the dead as soon as possible, either after fixing up Durkon (if they manages that at all) or paying for it after reaching the dwarves and fixing the whole priest crisis.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-22, 12:20 PM

Aedilred

2017-02-22, 01:29 PM

For me, Andi crossed the line when she announced that the OotS were abandoning the Mechane and leaving it behind. Given what was actually happening - Elan and Roy remaining on board, Haley, V and Belkar leaving to fight the giants, thus drawing threats away from the ship - it's hard to see how that can be characterised as anything other than paranoid delusion. It became evident at that point that Andi was going to insist on her own warped narrative of events regardless of the actual evidence, or any application of reason.

With that in mind, I think it would be entirely in character for her to complain that Roy had betrayed them by fighting the giants on deck, because it means the bridge is exposed to giant attack.

Her subsequent actions: abandoning her post to carp at the captain, ignoring direct orders from the captain, failure to account for her own lack of specific situational knowledge relative to Bandana's, mutiny, self-congratulation for blind luck, impeding Elan's actually helpful attempts to repair the ship... and it goes on like this... have been adequately addressed elsewhere. Suffice it to say that on any real vessel in a crisis situation - including historical and most likely modern pirate ships - she'd be guilty of a capital crime, and likely punished accordingly at the next opportunity.

I feel I should also point out that, given she's the member of the crew who's been most vocal about how she wants to get back to being a proper pirate again, she's also something of a coward.

I can't really see how anyone has any real grounds for defending her at this stage. Even if she did have a couple of valid points once upon a time, she's a long way into the red by now.

zinycor

2017-02-22, 04:32 PM

Ok then, while I don't agree with everything that has been said about Andi on here, I admit that I missinterpreted the part that Andi was playing on the comic.

RatElemental

2017-02-22, 11:51 PM

Andromeda was perfectly fine with Julio taking them to Lawful Evil Tyrant Country to help a guy for no financial upside whatsoever. All it took was for Bandana to do the same, even with a financial upside, and suddenly it becomes a bad enough decision to mutiny over.

Also lawful good crazy cat dude country (Azure City) just to drop off their captain's new protege. Also with no financial incentive iirc.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-23, 12:05 AM

Also lawful good crazy cat dude country (Azure City) just to drop off their captain's new protege. Also with no financial incentive iirc.

LG WITH A BONE TO PICK, no less. And Elan had literally no money, so no financial incentive unless she was planning on taking 30-ft.-per-round movement rate as payment.

Xyril

2017-02-23, 01:23 AM

Did I miss something? I have read the comic many times now, and it always seemed to me that Andi was the voice of reason on the ship, but it seems that it is implied that she wasn't actually right...

What did I miss?

It depends on what you mean by "right" and which of the many things she said you're referring to. If you're referring to the various assertions she made earlier as to the state of the ship (i.e., on the way to port, during repairs at port), I have no reason to believe she's wrong and therefore I'm presuming she was right. If you mean that she was correct in her assessment that "Holy crap! This is an incredibly dangerous situation and we might not have what it takes to survive it," she was absolutely making a valid point.

As for later on, people take issue with both her ultimate assertion or action, as well as her motivation for getting there. With respect to motivation, very soon after Julio left, there was tension between Andi and Bandanna. For a while, I think it was reasonable to be uncertain as to whether Bandanna wasn't doing a good job as Captain or if Andi was the one being unreasonable. As the strip progressed, Andi seemed to be the one acting unreasonably--even if we assume that Bandanna was the one who wronged Andi first by failing to show proper respect, as time progressed, Andi continued to hold a grudge and to gripe passive-aggressively, while Bandanna for the most part tried to avoid taking the bait (reacting to the provocation.) Andi continually complained about how unfair it was that Bandanna was left in charge and how she thought Bandanna didn't deserve to lead and wasn't capable of leading. Away from Bandanna, she often complained about Bandanna's choices not in terms of the logical reasons Bandanna was wrong, but in terms of "Bandanna made a stupid decision. (insert ad hominem attack here)"

So when Andi criticizes Bandanna to her face, even when she presents logical reasons Bandanna is wrong (which isn't that often), it's hard for people to take Andi seriously because she had already killed her credibility. Any logic Andi presents, even if sound, comes off nearly as a pretext to indulge a personal grudge. To use a needlessly controversial real life example, if a cop seemingly randomly stops and frisks a black guy, I'm willing to consider the possibility that the cop saw something suspicious in the guy's behavior that has nothing to do with the color of his skin. If, however, I had just read a few months of strips in which that cop continually complained about how minorities were taking over our country and that we need to take action before it's too late... I'll probably be extremely skeptical about his real motivations.

As for whether Andi's choices were good ones, there's been a lot of debate on whether turning back would have been smart. People have brought together a lot of in comic information (such as the map of the passes) and real life information (ranks: knowledge of how real mountains work) to argue the merits. Some have argued that turning any sort of ship around would take substantial time, and leave the ship vulnerable in the maneuver, whereas proceeding at speed might be safer, and continuing forward might actually get you out of danger faster. Part of this depends of course on the size of the ambush, which is unknown.

As for Andi's assertion that that turning off the mapped pass, but retreating back along their path, was the best idea, the arguments against are generally that an unmapped path means the possibility of a dead end, and (bringing in real life knowledge and logic) if this is a well-traveled path, it is highly unlikely that an easily found pass exists and was left off the map. The main benefit from Andi's decision was that they moved away from the bulk of the enemy ambush. The arguments against that are that 1) they've also left behind the bulk of their own combat assets (including their only effective magic user) 2) they remain in immediate danger because they've been boarded and 3) if they're proceeding into a dead end, they bulk of the ambush will not only find but trap them eventually. In other words, Andi basically bought a temporary reprieve at the cost of guaranteeing that the Mechane will be trapped in a substantially worse tactical situation in the near future, and as far as anyone can tell, Andi has zero idea what to do with that extra time to make the sacrifice worth it.

As for Andi's assertion/excuse that Bandanna had put them in a situation where there was literally no way for the Mechane to survive more damage, considering only the facts up to that point in the strip makes it ambiguous who is correct. Bandanna is the line officer, she knows the tactical situation and should have an idea of the state of the ship--any knowledge that she's lacking in this regard is arguably a result of Andi's negligent failure in her duty to keep the Captain informed. Andi, on the other hand, should theoretically know the engineering situation better--however, she's also working with minimal knowledge of everything else.

However, when you consider Andi's subsequent actions, I see strong indications that even Andi didn't even really believe herself. If you assume that Andi meant that, under the current state of bombardment, Mechane was a hit away from going down, then the fact that the ship is still standing does not in itself prove Andi was wrong--thanks to Andi, the ship wasn't taking any more big hits. However, if Andi truly thinks the ship is that severely damaged, then the prudent thing to do, once immediate threats such as a counter-mutiny and crashing into a mountain were resolved, then her first priority should be to fix the ship so that one random hit won't kill them all.

Instead, Andi takes her spare time to berate someone who literally can't raise a hand to interfere. This tells me that either 1) Andi knows her hysterics about the ship were an exaggeration or 2) Andi sincerely believes the ship is nearly destroyed, yet prioritizes feeding her own ego over the safety of the ship and crew. In other words, precisely the behavior she accused Bandanna of.

In terms of "starboard" (or did she pick "port" at the end?), Andi was immediately right in terms of choosing not to crash into the mountain straight ahead of them. Whether her choice will still look correct in a few minutes is unknown to us, because Andi's been too busy taunting Bandanna.

Xyril

2017-02-23, 01:38 AM

Am not sure Marlowe referred to that, it seemed to me that he made a judgement on my personality or something like that.

Well, I think it might worry him that you agree that the mutiny had to be done in this situation. In particular, Andi seems to believe that her crew mates will be relieved when Bandanna is out of the way, and she's instead immediately met by the horrified reactions of all the crew members who actually spoke. Her crew clearly thought mutiny was a horrible idea in that situation--even though they state that they're not particularly eager to follow Andi, they seem to have accepted that even more mutinies would be a bad idea.

Also, when somebody said (I hope jokingly) "Sometimes people need to be hit with a wrench. That's just the way it goes," you apparently took it seriously and agreed. So Marlowe (maybe as a joke, maybe not) stated that he wouldn't want to be in a situation where you might resolve that it's necessary and good to hit him with a wrench while he's busy trying to make things better.

TeCoolMage

2017-02-23, 10:37 AM

Andromeda was perfectly fine with Julio taking them to Lawful Evil Tyrant Country to help a guy for no financial upside whatsoever. All it took was for Bandana to do the same, even with a financial upside, and suddenly it becomes a bad enough decision to mutiny over.

High persuasion rolls with the exact same circumstance modifiers :smallwink:

But yeah, Andi pretty much held things against Bandana personally, made crappy decisions off it and there's really not much going for her now.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-02-23, 11:17 AM

In terms of "starboard" (or did she pick "port" at the end?

She picked right, so starboard. Easy to remember: Port is the place you Left.

I belatedly note the helmsman knew he had to dumb down port or starboard to left or right for Andi to understand. You'd think she's pick up the basic lingo in fifteen years.

AvatarVecna

2017-02-23, 02:13 PM

She picked right, so starboard. Easy to remember: Port is the place you Left.

...that's genius! Never thought of it that way, but that's awesome! :smallbiggrin:

Peelee

2017-02-23, 03:47 PM

I belatedly note the helmsman knew he had to dumb down port or starboard to left or right for Andi to understand. You'd think she's pick up the basic lingo in fifteen years.

When did that happen?

Rogar Demonblud

2017-02-23, 08:58 PM

I had to reread, but you're correct. I got lost with all the other bickering and conflated 'right' with 'right'.

Consider the jab retracted.

Marlowe

2017-02-23, 09:03 PM

It used to be Starboard and Larboard, but it became traditional for ships to have their access gangways on the larboard side; so over a period of time it became known as the port side.

Unrelated shippy geekery; ever notice how ships in D&D always have a steering wheel? Those only became standard during the 17th century. Tiller steering was much more common until then.

Maritime tech in these games always seems to default to a much later technological period than what's true on land.

Kalmegil

2017-02-23, 10:13 PM

#1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) Andi suggests a course of action, Bandana doesn't take it into consideration without explaining why.

#1057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html) Andi is worried because Haley and V might be abandoning the crew to die, Bandana doesn't do any more explaining than saying "Calm down,I'm sure they know what they're doing"

#1062 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html) Bandana doesn't explain her motives to disregard Andi's advices, then claims that the whole thing is her fault. This leads to Andi's mutiny which I find to be completely fine, since Bandana has not shown a great leadership with her crew.

Ship captains don't stop to explain things to crew in the middle of a battle. It's generally a bad idea.

Also, Andi has definitively made things worse for the safety of the crew and ship.

Ruck

2017-02-24, 08:03 AM

That's not fair. Andi wasn't "willing to violently assault [Bandana] for no good reason", she "snapped violently for no good reason". Which is an extenuating circumstance, and the reason why "heat of passion" exists as a legal concept.

No, I believe the term for what you have described is "A distinction without a difference."

Suffice it to say that on any real vessel in a crisis situation - including historical and most likely modern pirate ships - she'd be guilty of a capital crime, and likely punished accordingly at the next opportunity.

I'm not so sure the same won't be true here.

Quild

2017-02-24, 09:28 AM

BS. And believe me, I do not use that acronym lightly. If she had a rough day, she could've accused them of being incompetent, or slow, or of padding their estimates and spending half the day doing nothing. There are plenty of ways to complain about independent contractors, as evidenced by the endless stand-up comedy routines about dealing with plumbers.

What she chose to do, however, was to make a comment about their race, rather than anything specifically about their work ethics, or results. Replace "gnome" with whatever racial epithet you want (since you are French, maybe "Tunisian"), and see how that measures in the racism quotient.

Grey WolfBecause she called gnomes... gnomes. I don't know. Andi might not be using PC language, but it find it very light to call her racist (or gnomist) for that.
I have the feeling that Andi's comment is more about how she felt she was in a middle of a "swarm".

Bandana herself had a generic statement about how the gnomes got a good sense for when they've got you by the short hairs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html).

And this nice gnome (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) who doesn't seem to be asking Blackwing nor V any payment for his transmogrification called V "your elf" rather than "the caster you're bonded to" or whatever.

I'm pretty sure we can find several occurences of characters calling other characters by their races or classes or job or whatever. But I find this judgement unecessary harsh on Andi.

Kish

2017-02-24, 09:31 AM

zinycor

2017-02-24, 10:28 AM

I mean, if she'd just said "you let gnomes on the ship!" that would be even worse, but everything she says about them is insulting. They're a swarm, like insects. Their size is worth bringing up when she's complaining about them. They're (supposedly) grubby when Bandana sends them to fix the ship, before they've done any work, which only makes sense if "grubby" is an inherent quality of gnomes. If she was objecting to--I can't actually tell what you're suggesting she's saying; her lines are so entirely racist that if I rephrase them to something nonracist I get either silence or something like "I still hate you, Bandana-Who-I-Will-Not-Call-Captain." She minds having to work with like-insects, inherently-dirty, smaller-than-they-should-be...gnomes. That's literally all that she said about them.

"Gnome" on its own may be a neutral descriptor, but I would advise not saying "I was stuck here with a dozen brunettes!" unless you want the person you're addressing to conclude you have something against brown hair.

I don't think that she necessarily meant that the gnomes were "inherently-dirty", for all the we know these particular gnomes were dirty.

yldenfrei

2017-02-24, 10:36 AM

I don't think that she necessarily meant that the gnomes were "inherently-dirty", for all the we know these particular gnomes were dirty.
Do people casually refer to workers as "dirty garbage collectors" or "dirty plumbers" or "dirty mechanics"? :smallconfused:

Kish

2017-02-24, 10:40 AM

That strikes me as a great deal like the original premise of this thread: Wait, Andi's supposed to be wrong? I was assuming everything she said and did was Rich endorsing her views.

It is theoretically possible, by which I mean I cannot disprove it without seeing the specific gnomes in question, that she stuck a complaint that the gnomes showed up to work on the ship unbathed (using a word with certain connotations as well as denotations) in between calling them a swarm and mentioning their size. That would, in light of the no-dirtier-than-the-humans-Rich-depicts gnomes depicted in Gnometown, be sufficiently odd to suggest there should be an explanation. Yet it's treated as a throwaway insult...in the middle of Andi's generally racist rant. And even if you could justify taking out "grubby" as an insult? It would still be a racist rant.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-02-24, 10:48 AM

It used to be Starboard and Larboard, but it became traditional for ships to have their access gangways on the larboard side; so over a period of time it became known as the port side.

Of course they tie the larboard side to the wharf. How else will you get the cargo aboard?

For those not ship-geeks, starboard is a mispronunciation of the Norse steorbord, or steering board. Larboard is lader-board (I don't have umlauts or those o's with a line through them on this computer, so spellings are approximate).

Mido

2017-02-24, 11:09 AM

Of course they tie the larboard side to the wharf. How else will you get the cargo aboard?

For those not ship-geeks, starboard is a mispronunciation of the Norse steorbord, or steering board. Larboard is lader-board (I don't have umlauts or those o's with a line through them on this computer, so spellings are approximate).I hope this does not come off as disrespectful in any way, shape or form for those that are in the know, but for the life of me, I thought the Starboard-Larboard thing was, on the face of it, a joke. I'm currently punching my brain for thinking that.

I love picking up little tidbits like these. I'm definitely spending more time on these boards (and hopefully contribute) from here on out. Been just lurky for the longest time... like a decade, since I learned about this site and the webcomic.

Marlowe

2017-02-24, 11:21 AM

Of course they tie the larboard side to the wharf. How else will you get the cargo aboard?

For those not ship-geeks, starboard is a mispronunciation of the Norse steorbord, or steering board. Larboard is lader-board (I don't have umlauts or those o's with a line through them on this computer, so spellings are approximate).

THANK YOU! So it's Norse!

A ridiculous number of English words relating to seafaring are derived from Dutch. Like "skipper". I really wasn't sure.

And I have the feeling the a statement like "Those Humans know when they've got you by the short hairs" is not quite on the same lines as "I've been stuck with a pack of grubby little Humans".

Quild

2017-02-24, 11:28 AM

The context is that Andi is complaining and calls them "a swarm of grubby little gnomes."

I mean, if she'd just said "you let gnomes on the ship!" that would be even worse, but everything she says about them is insulting. They're a swarm, like insects. Their size is worth bringing up when she's complaining about them. They're (supposedly) grubby when Bandana sends them to fix the ship, before they've done any work, which only makes sense if "grubby" is an inherent quality of gnomes. If she was objecting to--I can't actually tell what you're suggesting she's saying; her lines are so entirely racist that if I rephrase them to something nonracist I get either silence or something like "I still hate you, Bandana-Who-I-Will-Not-Call-Captain." She minds having to work with like-insects, inherently-dirty, smaller-than-they-should-be...gnomes. That's literally all that she said about them.

"Gnome" on its own may be a neutral descriptor, but I would advise not saying "I was stuck here with a dozen brunettes!" unless you want the person you're addressing to conclude you have something against brown hair.

The gnomes are grubby because they spent the whole day fixing the ship. Andi's grubby herself, just look at her. She also was when she made quick repairs while in the middle of the storm.
Bandana comes back saying she had XP, loots, exercise and waffles. While Andi was having a ****ty day. She was with grubby gnomes who made her think at a swarm the way they worked. The fact that they're little and probably a lot (the maximum they could be in order to work very very very fast) and probably working/acting/moving very fast. Hence the comparison.

I know I may say this kind of things either in a positive, neutral or negative way. Again, I acknowledge it's not politically correct. But you have some language flaws without being racist.

I'm not asking myself if Andi's racist here. I'm asking myself if The Giant wants to depict Andi as despicable. I don't have the feeling we were hinted that like for Tarquin. Just that she's fine enough with most people (crew, Roy, even Belkar) but not with Bandana. Maybe not with the gnomes who maybe didn't immediately listen to her about what she consider being her baby.

On another note, I didn't notice that Andi seemed fine enough about being a sky taxi in #990 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html).

Do people casually refer to workers as "dirty garbage collectors" or "dirty plumbers" or "dirty mechanics"? :smallconfused:
Well, if they have to spend some time with them, they might be disturbed enough to complain about it.

Kish

2017-02-24, 11:34 AM

Keltest

2017-02-24, 11:39 AM

Do people casually refer to workers as "dirty garbage collectors" or "dirty plumbers" or "dirty mechanics"? :smallconfused:

While it isn't usually explicitly said to their faces, plumbers, garbage collectors and other such vocations tend to have a reputation for poor personal hygiene and generally being unpleasant house guests. Some of that is warranted (you don't stay clean working with toilets or garbage, period) and some of it is a stereotype, but the reputation is there.

Yendor

2017-02-24, 11:42 AM

You know, this talk of racism makes me wonder if part of that massively inflated repair bill was because of Andi's abrasiveness.

Riftwolf

2017-02-24, 11:46 AM

"Politically correct" is a phrase that means "I wish to disparage the idea that there's anything wrong with saying that," and that's all. But this is goofy. If you want to deny that Andi's racist rant was racist, have fun with that.

Id argue 'racist epiphet' over 'racist rant'. She didn't continue along that line of insult, after all. Having been at the receiving end of some rants, I'd consider Andi casually averse over actively hateful.

yldenfrei

2017-02-24, 11:57 AM

While it isn't usually explicitly said to their faces, plumbers, garbage collectors and other such vocations tend to have a reputation for poor personal hygiene and generally being unpleasant house guests. Some of that is warranted (you don't stay clean working with toilets or garbage, period) and some of it is a stereotype, but the reputation is there.
No, I mean really use the term "dirty mechanic" et al. Because not only is it quite redundant (as you pointed out, part of the vocation), it also comes off as being stuck up. :smallconfused:

So to return, what does Andi mean by pointing out the obvious grubbiness of the gnome mechanics (in a very Pot-Kettle-Black moment no less), other than to paint them in a bad light?

EDIT: Missed Quild's post. While I agree that this may be a minor quibble and that the Giant may have no overt intention of making Andi racist, the fact remains that it was a loaded choice of phrasing, in a way that separates her from the gnomes and attaching a descriptor to them alone when it just as easily refers to her as well. And really? A mechanic complaining that other mechanics are dirty (while being obviously dirty herself)?
To put it another way: I'm surprised Andi did not include herself in the grubbiness description to score Misery points and make her all the more the martyr.

Keltest

2017-02-24, 12:16 PM

No, I mean really use the term "dirty mechanic" et al. Because not only is it quite redundant (as you pointed out, part of the vocation), it also comes off as being stuck up. :smallconfused:

So to return, what does Andi mean by pointing out the obvious grubbiness of the gnome mechanics (in a very Pot-Kettle-Black moment nonetheless), other than to paint them in a bad light?

EDIT: Missed Quild's post. While I agree that this may be a minor quibble and that the Giant may have no overt intention of making Andi racist, the fact remains that it was a loaded choice of phrasing, in a way that separates her from the gnomes and attaching a descriptor to them alone when it just as easily refers to her as well. And really? A mechanic complaining that other mechanics are dirty (while being obviously dirty herself)?
To put it another way: I'm surprised Andi did not include herself in the grubbiness description to score Misery points and make her all the more the martyr.

It is entirely possible that she considers the gnomes unclean in a way that is not standard for airship mechanics. maybe they smell like sulfur?

SaintRidley

2017-02-24, 12:54 PM

To answer the question in the title of this thread: Yes. Exceptionally so.

Id argue 'racist epiphet' over 'racist rant'. She didn't continue along that line of insult, after all. Having been at the receiving end of some rants, I'd consider Andi casually averse over actively hateful.

Yeah, one to two sentences falls far short of a rant.

Kish

2017-02-24, 12:58 PM

"Epithet" would be one insult; as I've said, I count four (swarm, grubby, their size is somehow relevant, their race is somehow relevant). Might be too short for a rant but it's definitely too long for a single epithet.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-24, 01:25 PM

Peelee

2017-02-24, 01:55 PM

How about "rantlet"?

I'm going to use this now.

Xyril

2017-02-24, 03:38 PM

I don't think that she necessarily meant that the gnomes were "inherently-dirty", for all the we know these particular gnomes were dirty.

I don't think I have ever parsed someone calling someone a "dirty Jew" or a "greedy Jew" as meaning "A specific individual possesses a certain negative attribute, and I'm going to identify him as the guy who happens to belong to a certain group so you know who I'm talking about, and not because I'm trying to make any implications about that group and whether or not they possess that certain negative attribute in general.

Ruck

2017-02-24, 04:38 PM

I don't think that she necessarily meant that the gnomes were "inherently-dirty", for all the we know these particular gnomes were dirty.

Sure, and people who use racial slurs in real life don't mean "the good ones," you know, just the rest. (Or, what Xyril said, more or less.)

Quild

2017-02-24, 04:52 PM

"Politically correct" is a phrase that means "I wish to disparage the idea that there's anything wrong with saying that," and that's all. But this is goofy. If you want to deny that Andi's racist rant was racist, have fun with that.

I see this term as the line between saying something incorrect (in context, racist) and thinking it/being it.

Andi maybe said a racist comment, it doesn't mean she has something against gnomes in general or other races. More a poor choice of words. I might be wrong on all points, that's still a strong possibility. Even if The Giant wrote it poorly (in your opinion)

Rynjin

2017-02-24, 04:56 PM

I see this term as the line between saying something incorrect (in context, racist) and thinking it/being it.

Andi maybe said a racist comment, it doesn't mean she has something against gnomes in general or other races. More a poor choice of words. I might be wrong on all points, that's still a strong possibility. Even if The Giant wrote it poorly (in your opinion)

Don't forget likening half-elves to dogs. Which more importantly was a remark that feeds into her (shown by that to be hypocritical) irrational age complex.

Keltest

2017-02-24, 04:56 PM

I see this term as the line between saying something incorrect (in context, racist) and thinking it/being it.

Andi maybe said a racist comment, it doesn't mean she has something against gnomes in general or other races. More a poor choice of words. I might be wrong on all points, that's still a strong possibility. Even if The Giant wrote it poorly (in your opinion)

Personally, I feel her comment was more in the line of 'I'm frustrated and using coarse language to exaggerate my discomfort" rather than "I hate gnomes and am terribly racist".

Kish

2017-02-24, 05:01 PM

In my opinion? Ho ho, hold on. Where did I say Rich wrote it poorly?

KorvinStarmast

2017-02-24, 05:01 PM

You know, this talk of racism makes me wonder if part of that massively inflated repair bill was because of Andi's abrasiveness. Ya think? :smallcool: Haley's persuasion and bluff skills being what they are, it was still a softball for her once the gnomes had been dealing with Andi all morning.

Plus, you can't dislike gnomes in this strip:
1. The cute gal not only sold Belkar that ring, she invited him to lunch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html).
2. They make great waffles. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html)
3. Cool lightning weapon that (oops, anyone could make this mistake (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html)) supercharged Golem Crystal.

Yuki Akuma

2017-02-24, 06:33 PM

Honestly, it's pretty weird to call the only race in the setting capable of magically cleaning themselves with a racial spell-like ability 'grubby'.

Snails

2017-02-24, 06:41 PM

Honestly, it's pretty weird to call the only race in the setting capable of magically cleaning themselves with a racial spell-like ability 'grubby'.

The spell-like ability can be used to achieve the opposite of clean just as easily. You are just assuming. ;)

Riftwolf

2017-02-25, 12:29 PM

How about "rantlet"?

Okay epithet was a poor word choice. Outburst(s) would've been better. But rantlet wins so I'll be using that from now on :)

Riftwolf

2017-02-25, 12:32 PM

The spell-like ability can be used to achieve the opposite of clean just as easily. You are just assuming. ;)

This led to a weird train of thought; are you saying the gnomes want to be dirty? Do they like being dirty? So much so they'll use 1/day cantrips to increase their dirt levels? Do - do you want the gnomes dirtier?

archon_huskie

2017-02-25, 04:00 PM

She picked right, so starboard. Easy to remember: Port is the place you Left.

I belatedly note the helmsman knew he had to dumb down port or starboard to left or right for Andi to understand. You'd think she's pick up the basic lingo in fifteen years.

The way I teach it in Boy Scouts is:

Port has four letters. Left has four letters. So port=left.
Starboard does not have four letters. Right does not have four letters. Starboard=right.

Xyril

2017-02-27, 01:44 AM

Quild

2017-02-27, 03:33 AM

In my opinion? Ho ho, hold on. Where did I say Rich wrote it poorly?
Well, if you're among those saying "Andi's racist" and it turns out it's not one of her traits and she has nothing against gnomes in general, then I suppose you somehow claim that it wasn't correctly written.

Dorath

2017-02-27, 05:13 AM

Well, if you're among those saying "Andi's racist" and it turns out it's not one of her traits and she has nothing against gnomes in general, then I suppose you somehow claim that it wasn't correctly written.

Or he admits he's wrong and moves on.

Unoriginal

2017-02-27, 05:37 AM

Anytime someone says that Bandana is a terrible/mediocre captain, I got to wonder if we're reading the same comic.

Bandana is maybe not the best captain ever, but for what we've seen her do, there was nothing that was done badly or worse than what you should expect from a competent captain.

Kish

2017-02-27, 07:17 AM

Quild

2017-02-27, 07:53 AM

So, dropping the debate and skipping straight to you being obviously right, eh? Marks for chutzpah, if nothing else.
Uh? How? I said "if".

If there is no doubt for you, considering how she's written, that Andi is racist(1) and if t turns out she's not (intended to be)(2), then you're saying it wasn't written correctly.

Me, I'm not saying she's racist or that she isn't. I'm saying that I don't read this line as some strong indicative of her being racist and that I prefer to see her as a nice character who has big, big, big irrational issues with Bandana.

(1): It's not clear to me if it's what you're defending that. If you're not, then we probably agree.
(2): I would hence be right, but I never claimed it to be obvious. Greywolf, on another hand, thinks my point is bullsh*t.

Kish

2017-02-27, 07:58 AM

It is not my opinion that that scene was written badly. Stop trying to tell me what my opinion is.

Quild

2017-02-27, 08:29 AM

It is not my opinion that that scene was written badly. Stop trying to tell me what my opinion is.
Well, maybe you should stop trying to tell mine about your.

My point was more about general logic and not specifically adressed to you but to anyone who thinks without a doubt that this statement makes Andi racist.

I made very clear that I wasn't sure of your opinion on the matter of Andi being or not racist.

georgie_leech

2017-02-27, 08:40 AM

I wonder if there are people who started spending enough time on boats that they don't need to think of port and starboard in terms of left and right. Or if, in fact, they need to remind themselves that right is starboard if they were a boat.

Sort of. Most sailors will have no trouble remembering right and left. The key with starboard and port is that they're always relative to the ship. That is, if a sailor was facing down-ship and saw something to their left, they would still say that the thing was to starboard.

pendell

2017-02-27, 09:57 AM

Did I miss something? I have read the comic many times now, and it always seemed to me that Andi was the voice of reason on the ship, but it seems that it is implied that she wasn't actually right...

What did I miss?

I haven't seen her as the "voice of reason". I've seen her as the "voice of finding fault with Bandanna". Much of her criticism is plausible, but I still can't think of a single time she was willing to acknowledge Bandanna made a correct decision.

But is she wrong?

Yes.

1) She took the Mechane off course despite having no charts or knowledge of the alternative courses. She might pull through by sheer luck author fiat, but being trapped in a dead end box canyon is the most likely outcome.

2) Her rationale for making this decision seems to be "Bandanna wanted to continue on course, so any other decision must be right" :smallmad:

3) To accomplish this , she struck her captain in the back of the head with a wrench.

4) In the middle of a combat situation, distracting the entire crew in a situation where they needed no distractions. And messing up Elan's mending attempt, but I don't really fault her for that last, since she had no way to know he was doing it and Bandanna could have called for radical evasive action too.

When I was much younger there was this radio show called "Adventures in Odyssey". One of the characters, Don Rathbone, was essentially the voice of idiocy on the show. Whatever choice Rathbone made, you knew it would be the wrong answer.

Rich Burlew has gone out of his way to paint Andi as the Don Rathbone of this strip -- while she may be a good engineer, she hasn't made a good decision since coming on deck.

So, yes, she's in the wrong. So wrong, in fact, that if this weren't an adventure serial where the good guys don't do that sort of thing, she'd hang from the yardarm for mutiny.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 10:17 AM

I haven't seen her as the "voice of reason". I've seen her as the "voice of finding fault with Andi". Much of her criticism is plausible, but I still can't think of a single time she was willing to acknowledge Andi made a correct decision.

(Bandana, I think you mean)

Edit:

[M]essing up Elan's mending attempt, but I don't really fault her for that last, since she had no way to know he was doing it
A good engineer would be aware that the gas bag had been breached, and would be aware that someone was on their way to fix it. I can find a lot of fault on Andi for being too self-absorbed to not be aware of Elan doing her job.

GW

pendell

2017-02-27, 10:20 AM

(Bandana, I think you mean)

Edit:

A good engineer would be aware that the gas bag had been breached, and would be aware that someone was on their way to fix it. I can find a lot of fault on Andi for being too self-absorbed to not be aware of Elan doing her job.

GW

Yes. Yes, I meant Andi found fault with Bandanna. I've edited the post
accordingly.

I agree Andi should be aware of the breech, but how would she know what Elan was doing, even if she was doing her job properly? She would reasonably know if a damage control party was assigned to the job, but civilian passengers pitching in on their own initiative without reporting in to the DC officer would be out of her field.

Though, I must admit that if I was on a ship and a passenger was able to fix a gaping hull breach with magic, I wouldn't feel much like complaining. More like "you, Mr. [Mrs?] Wizard, will never pay for your own beer, ever again."

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Unoriginal

2017-02-27, 10:36 AM

I agree Andi should be aware of the breech, but how would she know what Elan was doing, even if she was doing her job properly

Elan told Roy about it while on the bridge, and even with the battle around then it'd take a pretty poor Listen check to not hear it. Furthermore, even if she didn't know, if she had been doing her job, she'd have asked "someone go repair that balloon" or said she'd go do it herself, only to be told "Elan's already on it."

Quild

2017-02-27, 11:04 AM

A good engineer would be aware that the gas bag had been breached, and would be aware that someone was on their way to fix it. I can find a lot of fault on Andi for being too self-absorbed to not be aware of Elan doing her job.

She's aware that they're venting gas (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html), among other problems.

Elan told Roy about it while on the bridge, and even with the battle around then it'd take a pretty poor Listen check to not hear it. Furthermore, even if she didn't know, if she had been doing her job, she'd have asked "someone go repair that balloon" or said she'd go do it herself, only to be told "Elan's already on it."

She definitely should know that Elan's mending could be useful here since it was used before on the ship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html). If she's not aware of what Elan's doing, she should be suggesting it.
But she's clearly looking in the direction of the giants (and Elan&Roy) when Elan gets his idea. She just saw one giant killing 3 crew members. She must have seen Elan climbing the cord.

That being said, I think the listen check to hear Elan saying that to Roy is quite high. She's closer of the engines on a ship at his almost highest possible altitude between mountains. There's likely lot of noises.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 11:08 AM

I agree Andi should be aware of the breech, but how would she know what Elan was doing, even if she was doing her job properly? She would reasonably know if a damage control party was assigned to the job, but civilian passengers pitching in on their own initiative without reporting in to the DC officer would be out of her field.

Well, the two fizzled spells would have given it away. It's a 0-th level spell, she should be aware of it. But fair enough, I'll grant you that an "ideal engineer" that has met Elan might think he's just goofing around up there - but in that case, this hypothetical engineer would dispatch someone else.

So, to clarify my position: if Andi was a decent engineer, she'd have, by now, (1) realised there is a gas leak in the bag and (2) either sent someone to fix it (including themselves) or realised that Elan might do it for them.

Edit: Nice catch, Quild - she is aware. So even though she knows both the gas leak and Elan's ability to fix it, her actions are demonstrably impeding someone else from doing her job.

Grey Wolf

snowblizz

2017-02-27, 11:22 AM

her actions are demonstrably impeding someone else from doing her job.

That proves her actions are justified! Somehow. Because...reasons!

This IS the alternative reality where the comic actually validates any of the Andi-fans overpositive views of her isn't it? No. Must have stepped through the wrong cupboard.

Keltest

2017-02-27, 11:24 AM

Well, the two fizzled spells would have given it away. It's a 0-th level spell, she should be aware of it. But fair enough, I'll grant you that an "ideal engineer" that has met Elan might think he's just goofing around up there - but in that case, this hypothetical engineer would dispatch someone else.

So, to clarify my position: if Andi was a decent engineer, she'd have, by now, (1) realised there is a gas leak in the bag and (2) either sent someone to fix it (including themselves) or realised that Elan might do it for them.

Edit: Nice catch, Quild - she is aware. So even though she knows both the gas leak and Elan's ability to fix it, her actions are demonstrably impeding someone else from doing her job.

Grey Wolf

Ok, I don't think that's fair to Andi. Her reasons for turning off the pass are bad, but if youre Andi and think theyre valid, then "getting out of danger to prevent more damage to the ship" is almost certainly of higher priority than "repair existing but not immediately lethal damage to the ship". Unless you think there was some other way for them to make those turns without interrupting Elan? (Yes, obviously the best thing she could have done is not usurped control of the ship, but this line of argument is attacking her for Elan's concentration skill being bad.)

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 11:36 AM

Quild

2017-02-27, 12:19 PM

Ok, I don't think that's fair to Andi. Her reasons for turning off the pass are bad, but if youre Andi and think theyre valid, then "getting out of danger to prevent more damage to the ship" is almost certainly of higher priority than "repair existing but not immediately lethal damage to the ship". Unless you think there was some other way for them to make those turns without interrupting Elan? (Yes, obviously the best thing she could have done is not usurped control of the ship, but this line of argument is attacking her for Elan's concentration skill being bad.)

I'm not sure that her reasons are so bad.
Actually I'm not sure of what she's doing. Andi suggested to turn around in #1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) but they're not doing that. Bandana's reasons are arguable since a lot of the giants they passed are now dead, but there's no reason to thing the whole pass has the same number of giants all along. It might stop before the end of the pass.
Then Andi suggested to turn of the pass in #1061 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html). Bandana said that they might be going into a dead end (and it's maybe what she wands to speak about in fourth panel of #1066 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) except if she's going to threat Andi). I can't understand how Andi could have think "there would be no giants outside of the pass and we're not going into a dead end, it's just another way they didn't checked".

That being said, a dead end might not be the worst thing. Maybe they can heal, fix stuff, regroup, etc... But Andi probably didn't think that far.

It actually looks like a Scylla and Charybdis (Homer's Odissey) problem.
Scylla was a 6 headed monster and Charybdis a whirpool. They were close enough that a ship who wants to pass has to go really close of either one of these. Passing by Scylla meant losing 6 crew members. Passing by Charybdis, meant to lose nothing or... all ship. Odysseus (Ulysses) went through Scylla and lost a few crew members rather than taking risk of losing everything (he lost all his crewmembers in the end, so they didn't matter that much).

Now, this choice always struck me as kinda odd and not heroic at all. Rather the certain death of a few than a common risk?
Andi on another hand, does not want any other crew members to die by continuing into the pass. She wanted to abort the crossing beforehand for that reason but Bandana didn't listen.
She makes a choice that she thinks can save all the crewmembers (remaining) rather than continue to lose some (or all) with certainty.

It might be a good or bad choice, but if it's motivated for these reasons, it's probably not bad reasons.
Now if her reasons are purely to go against Bandana and she only tries to justify it without that much thinking, yes, these are poor reasons.

Easy: drop back to 1/3rd speed, giving them more time to go around uncharted mountains, and giving Elan time to fix the bag. He only needs 6 seconds, after all.
Andi probably doesn't know that her actions made Elan fail his spell twice (and moreover, that it might have this result). Maybe she doesn't know much about magic or that Elan has poor Concentration skill. Except for the slowing down (but the ship is doing that itself), she seems to be doing what you suggest.

But I really expect a crash in the mountains.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-27, 12:24 PM

if this weren't an adventure serial where the good guys don't do that sort of thing, she'd hang from the yardarm for mutiny.

The conflict hasn't ended yet and the pirates aren't the adventurers. Give it time...

Jasdoif

2017-02-27, 12:29 PM

Andi on another hand, does not want any other crew members to die by continuing into the pass. She wanted to abort the crossing beforehand for that reason but Bandana didn't listen.
She makes a choice that she thinks can save all the crewmembers (remaining) rather than continue to lose some (or all) with certainty.

It might be a good or bad choice, but if it's motivated for these reasons, it's probably not bad reasons.
Now if her reasons are purely to go against Bandana and she only tries to justify it without that much thinking, yes, these are poor reasons.Her reasons are Bandana had challenged Andi's performance in her job (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html). Notice that the three crewmembers getting killed two strips earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) wasn't enough to push Andi past her usual arguing with Bandana, but Bandana suggesting Andi wasn't doing her job was.

The_Weirdo

2017-02-27, 01:02 PM

Kish

2017-02-27, 01:03 PM

LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU--*sighs as Andi hits TheWeirdo over the head*

Unoriginal

2017-02-27, 01:09 PM

Now, this choice always struck me as kinda odd and not heroic at all. Rather the certain death of a few than a common risk?

Because if you want to survive, it's better to have some losses than 50/50 total loss. That's why a war leader will accept the possibility of their soldiers dying in order to achieve victory.

Note that the Greek concept of heroism was way different from the modern ideal.

Andi on another hand, does not want any other crew members to die by continuing into the pass. She wanted to abort the crossing beforehand for that reason but Bandana didn't listen. She makes a choice that she thinks can save all the crewmembers (remaining) rather than continue to lose some (or all) with certainty.

The problem is, if she thought that, that she's factually wrong about this and her reasoning is based on no rational concepts. She's exchanging a known danger, that might result in more deaths but is so far being managed, for an unknown danger that cannot be managed, because she thinks "if Bandana choose an option the opposite is right by default."

GloatingSwine

2017-02-27, 01:10 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 01:12 PM

Andi probably doesn't know that her actions made Elan fail his spell twice (and moreover, that it might have this result). Maybe she doesn't know much about magic or that Elan has poor Concentration skill.

If she was a half-decent engineer, she would have noticed Elan, because no decent engineer would fail to check for the cause of the venting gas, and therefore spot Elan. Furthermore, no decent engineer would fail to do something about the venting gas - this is not like the propellers. There is no reason to stop you from patching the whole while moving. It is a sign of her lack of engineering competence that she forgets about the pressing engineering issues that can be fixed on the fly.

Andi is too busy playing the captain (badly) to do her actual job. But then, before she started playing the captain, she was too busy being a jerk to do her job. And before that, she was too busy insulting and getting in the way of gnomes to let them do the job she couldn't do.

Quite literally, it seems, the only time she has done her job since after the storm was when the order paid someone else to do it.

Except for the slowing down (but the ship is doing that itself), she seems to be doing what you suggest.

No, she really is not.

Grey Wolf

Quild

2017-02-27, 01:21 PM

Her reasons are Bandana had challenged Andi's performance in her job (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1062.html). Notice that the three crewmembers getting killed two strips earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) wasn't enough to push Andi past her usual arguing with Bandana, but Bandana suggesting Andi wasn't doing her job was.
Well, that's her reason to knock Bandana down in addition of Bandana not listening to her. But her reasons for not continuing to face giants is either to avoid getting killed (she speaks about this concern in #1062) or to purely disagree with Bandana. Or both.
The former isn't irrational.

No, she really is not.

I'm lost. I was thinking at "drop back to 1/3rd speed, giving them more time to go around uncharted mountains, and giving Elan time to fix the bag. He only needs 6 seconds, after all."
1) The ship is losing speed (because of the damages)
2) She's going around uncharted mountains rather than continuing on the pass
3) That would give Elan time to fix the bag

I agree she's doing nothing for the repairs herself, provided she can fix something right now (probably can't unbent the propellers while they're working, nor do something about the ventral fins in the middle of all that, nor about the balloon), but I suppose she spotted what Elan is doing and has no way to know she's un-helping him.

Rynjin

2017-02-27, 01:26 PM

Now, this choice always struck me as kinda odd and not heroic at all. Rather the certain death of a few than a common risk?

That's because in Greek "I'm going to do something heroic" roughly translates to "Hold my beer and watch this".

A hero was just someone who was really brave and strong (especially this last one) who did brave and powerful things decisively.

Which is why Hercules/Herakles is a hero despite murdering his family (among other unsavory things).

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 01:32 PM

I'm lost.
This is the context:
Keltest posited that Andi cannot do anything to help Elan (post-turn): " Unless you think there was some other way for them to make those turns without interrupting Elan? "

Dropping the speed would give Elan the time he needed. Also would have given Andi time to pick the route, and given the helmsman time to avoid the mountain.

Edit: You know what, I'm going to actually add here that I'm not sure why I should even grant her a freebie of a first turn. We are debating Andi's abilities as an engineer. She should have been aware of Elan the moment she got on deck, therefore she should have kept him in mind when she ordered the turn. Sure, she had no way of knowing he hadn't maxed out concentration, but (1) there is no reason to make his life harder anyway and (2) it's not just making the spell fizzle - she could have caused him to lose his grip and fall (but it seems Elan at least maxed out climbing). If Andi was half as good an engineer as she thinks herself to be, she should not have ordered the sharp turn while Elan was up there trying to fix the ship in the first place.

I was thinking at "drop back to 1/3rd speed, giving them more time to go around uncharted mountains, and giving Elan time to fix the bag. He only needs 6 seconds, after all."
1) The ship is losing speed (because of the damages)
That's not Andi's doing. and we already know that at current speed, Andi is not capable of avoiding peaks. If she did drop the speed, she might - or at least, might take longer between bumps to let Elan cast.

2) She's going around uncharted mountains rather than continuing on the pass

And in doing so, slamming against mountains, causing Elan to fail to fix the ship again.

3) That would give Elan time to fix the bag
Assuming that Elan hasn't run out of cantrips by then, and that the ship doesn't continue to need sharp turns and doesn't keep hitting the mountains. None of which can be safely assumed when you go into uncharted territory.

Grey Wolf

Kish

2017-02-27, 01:38 PM

Elan's not going to run out of cantrips. He'd need to run out of every spell slot he has, since he can cast a cantrip with a level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 slot as long as he doesn't mind wasting a lot of that slot's potential power.

Other than that, though, yes: If the ship is slowing (less helium means it sails lower and eventually crashes, not that it automatically slows!) which isn't indicated in any way, it's not to Andi's credit. Her immediate priority once the helmsman stopped demanding her attention was to gloat over her prisoner. She has done nothing positive for the Mechane in this scene that wasn't demanded of her half a dozen increasingly urgent times.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 02:02 PM

Elan's not going to run out of cantrips. He'd need to run out of every spell slot he has, since he can cast a cantrip with a level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 slot as long as he doesn't mind wasting a lot of that slot's potential power.
Oh, right. Fair enough, I suppose.

Other than that, though, yes: If the ship is slowing (less helium means it sails lower and eventually crashes, not that it automatically slows!) which isn't indicated in any way, it's not to Andi's credit.

The ship is going slower than it should due to the bent propeller, not the gas leak. Either way, I agree, it is not Andi's actions helping Elan.

(A thought occurs, that you could fix the propellers with the mend spell - so our ideal engineer would send two people up to the gas leak: one to patch, one to fetch Elan so he could spend his slots fixing the propeller instead)

GW

Peelee

2017-02-27, 02:05 PM

(A thought occurs, that you could fix the propellers with the mend spell - so our ideal engineer would send two people up to the gas leak: one to patch, one to fetch Elan so he could spend his slots fixing the propeller instead)

GW

Unfortunately, Mending explicitly excludes warps from its purview, only allowing for small breaks or tears.

Keltest

2017-02-27, 02:06 PM

Oh, right. Fair enough, I suppose.

The ship is going slower than it should due to the bent propeller, not the gas leak. Either way, it is not Andi's actions helping Elan.

(A thought occurs, that you could fix the propellers with the mend spell - so our ideal engineer would send two people up to the gas leak: one to patch, one to fetch Elan so he could spend his slots fixing the propeller instead)

GW

Mending explicitly will not repair warps in materials. It can rejoin them as if they had never been broken, but it wont fix a dent. And its got a weight limit anyway that the propeller could very well exceed.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 02:10 PM

Unfortunately, Mending explicitly excludes warps from its purview, only allowing for small breaks or tears.

What? Why on earth would...

::checks::

Oh, I see. So it doesn't counter another spell.

Sigh.

GW

Peelee

2017-02-27, 02:20 PM

What? Why on earth would...

::checks::

Oh, I see. So it doesn't counter another spell.

Sigh.

GW

If it makes you feel any better, the same goes for Greater Mending Make Whole.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 02:23 PM

If it makes you feel any better, the same goes for Greater Mending Make Whole.

Not really, no. And I assume there isn't a "straighten" spell that does fix bent objects (and presumably cannot fix tears and cracks?)

GW

Peelee

2017-02-27, 02:25 PM

Not really, no. And I assume there isn't a "straighten" spell that does fix bent objects (and presumably cannot fix tears and cracks?)

GW

Sure there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/warpWood.htm). So long as it's made of wood.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 02:27 PM

Sure there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/warpWood.htm). So long as it's made of wood.

So if your sword gets bent, the best way to fix it is to break it at the bend. Yep, that sounds like the 3.X spells system.

GW

Jasdoif

2017-02-27, 02:43 PM

Sure there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/warpWood.htm). So long as it's made of wood.Hmm...so, transmute metal to wood to make the propellers wood, followed by enough warp wood spells to fix the bend, followed by limited wish to restore the wooden propeller to metal....I'm beginning to see why airship repairs are so expensive, if needing a 7th-level druid spell and a 7th-level wizard spell (with a number of cantrips in the middle) is indicative of the alternative :smalltongue:

Keltest

2017-02-27, 02:43 PM

So if your sword gets bent, the best way to fix it is to break it at the bend. Yep, that sounds like the 3.X spells system.

GW

If your sword gets bent, the best way to fix it is to in-bend it yourself, with your muscles, then take it to a blacksmith later to get it fixed for real. Repeatedly bending a sword like that would eventually break it fully, or weaken it so much as to shatter in a fight, but only bending it once, such that it didn't break, and then bending it back, will probably leave the sword in usable condition, if not ideal.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-27, 02:54 PM

If your sword gets bent, the best way to fix it is to in-bend it yourself, with your muscles, then take it to a blacksmith later to get it fixed for real. Repeatedly bending a sword like that would eventually break it fully, or weaken it so much as to shatter in a fight, but only bending it once, such that it didn't break, and then bending it back, will probably leave the sword in usable condition, if not ideal.

Or you could break it, Make Whole it, and is back to good as new, in about 12 seconds, saving yourself the trip to the smith. But not 6 seconds, because it'd be wrong, somehow, to have a spell that fixes bent metal objects while it being a-ok to have one that fixes broken ones, and another that fixes wooden bent objects (like the haft* of an axe).

*Edit: huh, shaft and haft's etymologies seem to be unrelated. Would not have called that.

Grey Wolf

Xihirli

2017-02-27, 03:06 PM

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png "The etymologies are unrelated."

Keltest

2017-02-27, 03:09 PM

Or you could break it, Make Whole it, and is back to good as new, in about 12 seconds, saving yourself the trip to the smith. But not 6 seconds, because it'd be wrong, somehow, to have a spell that fixes bent metal objects while it being a-ok to have one that fixes broken ones, and another that fixes wooden bent objects (like the haft* of an axe).

*Edit: huh, shaft and haft's etymologies seem to be unrelated. Would not have called that.

Grey Wolf

The spell does not specify that a non-magically warped object that is subsequently broken is returned to its non-warped state, it will just re-attach the part that has been broken off with the same strength it had before the break. Frankly, given the fact that the spell explicitly will not mend warped objects, I would go so far as to say it flat out says it doesn't work like that, though I recognize that the line between RAW and RAI here is somewhat blurry.

Peelee

2017-02-27, 04:13 PM

Hmm...so, transmute metal to wood to make the propellers wood, followed by enough warp wood spells to fix the bend, followed by limited wish to restore the wooden propeller to metal....I'm beginning to see why airship repairs are so expensive, if needing a 7th-level druid spell and a 7th-level wizard spell (with a number of cantrips in the middle) is indicative of the alternative :smalltongue:

Now that's just needlessly complex.

The clear solution here is to get a side of beef, then hit it with Flesh to Stone, then Stone Shape. Chances are there's plenty of meat in the galley, and a single wizard could hit 'em both. Granted, the wizard still needs compensation, but a 6th-level spell and a 4th-level spell are cheaper than two 7ths.

Jasdoif

2017-02-27, 04:37 PM

The clear solution here is to get a side of beef, then hit it with Flesh to Stone, then Stone Shape. Chances are there's plenty of meat in the galley, and a single wizard could hit 'em both. Granted, the wizard still needs compensation, but a 6th-level spell and a 4th-level spell are cheaper than two 7ths.Other than ending up with a stone propeller instead of a metal one, and flesh to stone working on creatures and not objects, sure.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-02-27, 04:39 PM

Peelee

2017-02-27, 04:50 PM

Other than ending up with a stone propeller instead of a metal one, and flesh to stone working on creatures and not objects, sure.

Ah, forgot that the creature bit. I don't see what's so wrong about the stone instead of metal, though. It's just like metal, except really impure!

Kish

2017-02-27, 04:52 PM

There are no reversible spells in 3ed or later. The last edition with them is 2ed.

There are, however, separate spells called "Stone to Flesh" and "Flesh to Stone." Knowing one is no more likely to mean you know the other than knowing either is to mean you know Mass Cat's Grace. There is no Transmute Wood to Metal (at least in the Player's Handbook or SRD, though presumably if some druid wanted to invent one they'd have a pretty strong case for a spell of the same level as Transmute Metal to Wood which differs from it only in transposing the words "wood" and "metal wherever they appear).

Quild

2017-02-27, 05:58 PM

Andi's abilities as an engineer.

I repeatedly fail to see why you think thazt engineer's abilities include the best use of ressources at your disposal, including magical ones. Aren't this more of a leader/manager skill? She lacks those.
You probably know more about 3.5's magics system than Andi does and yet you were unaware of a few specifics of Mending (I also was unanaware that Elan could use cantrips until he runs out of spell slots and that it can't unwarp things). Andi failing to know this is clearly no worse than most clerics failing to know anything about vampires. She probably saw or heard about what Elan fixed with Mending, but it doesn't mean that it can fix everything.

I'm still thinking that she spotted Elan not helping Roy and climbing at the cord instead but can't help Elan or thinks he's doing the best he can. And that she has no reason to think she's making him fail his casting.
Would Elan fix/have fixed the Mechane, she still would like to change direction.

@Kish: Would a druid transmute wood into metal though? :smallconfused: I would make it a wizard spell.

yldenfrei

2017-02-27, 07:10 PM

I'm still thinking that she spotted Elan not helping Roy and climbing at the cord instead but can't help Elan or thinks he's doing the best he can. And that she has no reason to think she's making him fail his casting.
Which strikes me as odd, especially after establishing her "protectiveness" of the ship, resenting on gnomes fixing it and what not. But all of a sudden she sees a passenger climbing up the ropes and she doesn't even bother to oversee (y'know, chief engineer job?) if the repair gets done at all? It's pretty inconsistent. The only way it makes sense is if the ship is just an excuse to harp on a certain someone. Oh wait.

Unoriginal

2017-02-27, 07:28 PM

I repeatedly fail to see why you think thazt engineer's abilities include the best use of ressources at your disposal, including magical ones. Aren't this more of a leader/manager skill?

The capacity to find the best use of the ressources at your disposal, including magical ones, is part of any expertise-based job. A doctor who waste ressources because of poor application when treating a medical problem is a poor doctor, for exemple.

Furthermore, Andi is the *chief* engineer, meaning she is indeed in a leadership/management/decision-making position, in regard of engineering

Kish

2017-02-27, 10:10 PM

Considering Andi's...ahem, personality traits...I think it's entirely possible that she's the sole engineer on ship, who thinks "chief engineer" sounds better than "engineer."

atemu1234

2017-02-27, 10:50 PM

Considering Andi's...ahem, personality traits...I think it's entirely possible that she's the sole engineer on ship, who thinks "chief engineer" sounds better than "engineer."

Though that is a distinct possibility, a ship that size probably needs more than one.

Quild

2017-02-28, 04:20 AM

Which strikes me as odd, especially after establishing her "protectiveness" of the ship, resenting on gnomes fixing it and what not. But all of a sudden she sees a passenger climbing up the ropes and she doesn't even bother to oversee (y'know, chief engineer job?) if the repair gets done at all? It's pretty inconsistent. The only way it makes sense is if the ship is just an excuse to harp on a certain someone. Oh wait.

For Andi, the very first reason for the damages to the ship is Bandana's decisions. Her immediate concern, not only for the ship but also for the crew including herself, is getting the heck out of here.

In other terms, it's perfectly arguable that Andi wants to prevent more damage from occuring before she get a chance to fix the ones actually here. And really. Supervising Elan on climbing on a rope and casting his spell? Do you mean like a cheerleader or something?

The capacity to find the best use of the ressources at your disposal, including magical ones, is part of any expertise-based job. A doctor who waste ressources because of poor application when treating a medical problem is a poor doctor, for exemple.
I seriously disagree on this one.

Furthermore, Andi is the *chief* engineer, meaning she is indeed in a leadership/management/decision-making position, in regard of engineering
Was it actually claimed that she's chief?

yldenfrei

2017-02-28, 05:41 AM

And really. Supervising Elan on climbing on a rope and casting his spell? Do you mean like a cheerleader or something? Notice I said oversee. As in "see". As in, at the very least, take a glance every now and then to see if Elan did manage to repair the tear. Or, maybe through use of sound reasoning, wonder why it's taking Elan too long to fix it. That's not unreasonable to ask, right? Or is that too much work? (Tbf if the gnome repair is any indication, Andi does seem to have a confused notion of the meaning of "oversee".)

Edit: Y'know, had she been just a little bit more doing her job, she'd have seen Elan's first fail due to Bandana's speed command, and she could've rightfully blamed Bandana for causing Elan to fail. :smallamused:

Quild

2017-02-28, 06:00 AM

Notice I said oversee. As in "see". As in, at the very least, take a glance every now and then to see if Elan did manage to repair the tear. Or, maybe through use of sound reasoning, wonder why it's taking Elan too long to fix it. That's not unreasonable to ask, right? Or is that too much work?

Edit: Y'know, had she been just a little bit more doing her job, she'd have seen Elan's first fail due to Bandana's speed command, and she could've rightfully blamed Bandana for causing Elan to fail. :smallamused:

I think Andi can be more useful doing something else than just overseeing Elan. Her mutiny decision maybe saved the day for the Mechane and it's crew. We'll never know.

Anyway, Elan's first fizzled is because of Andi's decision to turn off the pass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) and the second because the Mechane scrapped the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) after Andi decided to go on the right side.
Bandana's decision to increase speed got the third Giant to fail his jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html). But it's also the reason for the propellers to be bent.

yldenfrei

2017-02-28, 06:18 AM

I think Andi can be more useful doing something else than just overseeing Elan. Her mutiny decision maybe saved the day for the Mechane and it's crew. We'll never know.
I assume by "doing something else", you mean not do her actual job and instead commandeer someone else's position? Yep, that sounds more useful indeed.:smallsigh:

Also just to be petty :smallbiggrin:, we will know in the coming pages whether or not Andi saves the day for the Mechane and its crew (that's not something the Giant could reasonably gloss over). I'm betting on the not.

Anyway, Elan's first fizzled is because of Andi's decision to turn off the pass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) and the second because the Mechane scrapped the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) after Andi decided to go on the right side.
Bandana's decision to increase speed got the third Giant to fail his jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html). But it's also the reason for the propellers to be bent.
Hmm, I stand corrected on that account. Seems like there's a chance for Elan to do Third Time's the Charm then.

Kish

2017-02-28, 06:44 AM

Her mutiny decision maybe saved the day for the Mechane and it's crew. We'll never know.
That you would suggest that does much to make the "calling them a swarm of grubby little gnomes wasn't racist!" thing make more sense. Pretty sure Rich will keep pouring on "what Andi just did was the wrong thing for the wrong reasons," though.

Anyway, Elan's first fizzled is because of Andi's decision to turn off the pass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1063.html) and the second because the Mechane scrapped the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1065.html) after Andi decided to go on the right side.
Bandana's decision to increase speed got the third Giant to fail his jump (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html). But it's also the reason for the propellers to be bent.
One of these assertions doesn't have a supporting link. Coincidentally, it's the one that says part of the current mess was caused by Bandana.

hamishspence

2017-02-28, 07:48 AM

The idea is that the reason the giant has blood all over his left elbow joint (and that "CHRRR!" red text noise) is that the propeller blades are hitting him there.

Kish

2017-02-28, 07:54 AM

Oh, is it?

When I thought the idea was that speeding up had somehow bent the propellers, or that they'd bumped against something off-panel, it was unsupported but at least made sense as something to be theoretically critical of Bandana for--if the link between the propellers being bent and the third giant failing his jump is more direct, it's supported but makes phrasing it in a way that implies Bandana is at fault seem like something Andi would do.

Quild

2017-02-28, 08:02 AM

That you would suggest that does much to make the "calling them a swarm of grubby little gnomes wasn't racist!" thing make more sense.
Is it me or is this sentence needlessly complicated?

First, I see nothing that relates the two things.
Second, my point about this statement was more that even if she said something that sounds racist, it doesn't mean she is racist. We had this conversation a lot, I don't understand why you come back again trying to deform what I said.

Pretty sure Rich will keep pouring on "what Andi just did was the wrong thing for the wrong reasons," though.
I'm actually saying that Andi may have make the right thing here by changing course.
Whether her reasons are good or not is on discussion. If it's just to disagree with Bandana, then they're bad. But she gave better reasons than that to which Bandana only objected "we don't know if that's true".

One of these assertions doesn't have a supporting link. Coincidentally, it's the one that says part of the current mess was caused by Bandana.
It's the link with the third giant falling. You can see his arm being hurt by the propellers. Maybe they were damaged by a rock off-panel though.

I do despise Andi's attitude, but it seems that some people want her to be wrong on each and every matter.

Edit:

Oh, is it?

When I thought the idea was that speeding up had somehow bent the propellers, or that they'd bumped against something off-panel, it was unsupported but at least made sense as something to be theoretically critical of Bandana for--if the link between the propellers being bent and the third giant failing his jump is more direct, it's supported but makes phrasing it in a way that implies Bandana is at fault seem like something Andi would do.
So you see nothing wrong in Andi being at fault for Elan failing his spell twice and Bandana accidentaly making the third giant fail his jump, but, Bandana being accidentaly responsible for the propellers to be bent is a problem?
Don't you have a bias here?

GloatingSwine

2017-02-28, 08:55 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 09:09 AM

I repeatedly fail to see why you think thazt engineer's abilities include the best use of ressources at your disposal, including magical ones. Aren't this more of a leader/manager skill? She lacks those.
Never claimed that. A decent engineer would have at least glanced up to the gas bag to ascertain the reason and extent of the gas leak. Andi has not: a clear mark of her incompetence. Don't tell me that "she was too busy" - it's a bloody glance, and then an engineering decision of what to do about it (which, yes, could include "can't do anything for now"), but Andi hasn't even got that far.

That said, an engineer's abilities do include making the best use of available resources. It applies to every profession. Usually explained with the chef equivalence: what is the difference between a good chef and a bad chef? That, given the same exact ingredients, a good chef produces better results.

You probably know more about 3.5's magics system than Andi does and yet you were unaware of a few specifics of Mending (I also was unanaware that Elan could use cantrips until he runs out of spell slots and that it can't unwarp things). Andi failing to know this is clearly no worse than most clerics failing to know anything about vampires. She probably saw or heard about what Elan fixed with Mending, but it doesn't mean that it can fix everything.
Irrelevant. She knows the spell exists, and she should have noticed Elan near the leak. At that point, even Thog could put 2 and 2 together.

I'm still thinking that she spotted Elan not helping Roy and climbing at the cord instead but can't help Elan or thinks he's doing the best he can. And that she has no reason to think she's making him fail his casting.
No, that's just making excuses for her. There is literally 0 evidence that she knows about Elan, or even where the leak is. And if she does, then she has seen the repairable gap and is failing as an engineer for not sending someone up to fix it.

For Andi, the very first reason for the damages to the ship is Bandana's decisions. Her immediate concern, not only for the ship but also for the crew including herself, is getting the heck out of here.
Yes, we know Andi blames Bandana for everything - but we also can tell that's irrational. Also, her decisions to "save the ship" are causing more damage to the ship than the actual giants, so far.

In other terms, it's perfectly arguable that Andi wants to prevent more damage from occuring before she get a chance to fix the ones actually here.
What she "wants", given that she's an irrational, racist jerk, is irrelevant. What she has done is via incompetence at captaincy, lead the ship towards the unknown, likely blocked or dangerous path, plus damaged the ship she claims to care about; and via incompetence at engineering, failed to address the engineering problems of the ship (both before and after she became a mutineer).

my point about this statement was more that even if she said something that sounds racist, it doesn't mean she is racist.
Actually, it kinda does. Especially when it's not just once.

I'm actually saying that Andi may have make the right thing here by changing course. Whether her reasons are good or not is on discussion. If it's just to disagree with Bandana, then they're bad. But she gave better reasons than that to which Bandana only objected "we don't know if that's true".
We literally know from Andi's mouth that her reason was indeed just to disagree with Bandana. Also, "turn into an unmarked road in the middle of the mountains in case we just happen to discover a new, unguarded pass" is NOT "a better reason".

I do despise Andi's attitude, but it seems that some people want her to be wrong on each and every matter.
Pointing out what the comic is showing as evidence is not me "wanting" it to be so. Also, nice ad hominem there.

So you see nothing wrong in Andi being at fault for Elan failing his spell twice and Bandana accidentaly making the third giant fail his jump, but, Bandana being accidentaly responsible for the propellers to be bent is a problem?
Don't you have a bias here?

The difference is that Bandana's action was taken to prevent the giant from boarding, and it partially succeeded - the damage was an unintended consequence, but clearly better than the alternative. Also, we can't forget that giants are enemies, and Bandana is not responsible for their actions. Andi's actions have not succeeded in any measurable way: she has damaged the ship further, prevented it from being fixed, and her actions are preventing an ally from helping.

Also, make up your mind: if Andi is aware of Elan, then her actions are being done in full knowledge that turning and bumping against mountains might dislodge him. If she is unaware, then you accept that she is a poor engineer who hasn't even given one glance to see how bad the damage to the gas bag is.

Grey Wolf

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 09:16 AM

I seriously disagree on this one.

Really? You don't think that a doctor who uses a method that requires to use a lot of expensive medical instruments and substances and takes 10 hours to complete is worse than a doctor who uses a method that requires less means and only take 3 hours to complete, when both methods fix the issue?

Was it actually claimed that she's chief?

Andi claims she is the head engineer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html)

I'm actually saying that Andi may have make the right thing here by changing course.
Whether her reasons are good or not is on discussion. If it's just to disagree with Bandana, then they're bad.

Great, in this case you agree that Andi was in the wrong, since as she says herself, she think that any options Bandana picks is wrong and that the opposite is right by default.

But she gave better reasons than that to which Bandana only objected "we don't know if that's true".

Bandana told her that changing course in the hope of finding a better path by flying blindly in uncharted territory, when all the other blimp crew and cartographers who traveled through the region that Bandana is aware off said "we couldn't find a better path", was a bad idea.

It's the link with the third giant falling. You can see his arm being hurt by the propellers. Maybe they were damaged by a rock off-panel though.

So you see nothing wrong in Andi being at fault for Elan failing his spell twice and Bandana accidentaly making the third giant fail his jump, but, Bandana being accidentaly responsible for the propellers to be bent is a problem?
Don't you have a bias here?

There is a difference between hindering an ally's efforts you should be aware of (since Elan loudly declared what he was doing, and Andi should be concerned with the state of the balloon), and not managing to stop an enemy completely. If Bandana hadn't augmented the speed, the Frost Giant would have landed on the helm and probably damaged a lot of the instruments controlling the ship. If Andi hadn't changed course, or had decided which side of the mountain to go before the last second, Elan would have succeeded his spell.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 09:19 AM

Never claimed that. A decent engineer would have at least glanced up to the gas bag to ascertain the reason and extent of the gas leak. Andi has not: a clear mark of her incompetence. Don't tell me that "she was too busy" - it's a bloody glance, and then an engineering decision of what to do about it (which, yes, could include "can't do anything for now"), but Andi hasn't even got that far.

This argument is getting dangerously close to the True Scotsman fallacy. Andi has no need to announce her every thought out loud, nor can we even be sure that the engineering team has the capabilities to repair the balloon under normal circumstances. Its bigger than the actual ship part, if she didn't see the giant smack it with an axe, she might not even be able to tell where the hole is without going up there herself with a fly spell and examining the whole thing. Its far more likely that they have some emergency device to get it filled with air again after they make an emergency landing to patch the hole than it is that Andi is expected to go up there or send someone up there with a needle and thread and crawl all over that thing looking for the leak while theyre still flying.

elros

2017-02-28, 09:23 AM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 09:41 AM

This argument is getting dangerously close to the True Scotsman fallacy. Andi has no need to announce her every thought out loud, nor can we even be sure that the engineering team has the capabilities to repair the balloon under normal circumstances. Its bigger than the actual ship part, if she didn't see the giant smack it with an axe, she might not even be able to tell where the hole is without going up there herself with a fly spell and examining the whole thing.
False. Elan and Roy were able to see from deck. Therefore Andi could as well. Especially with a passenger hanging near it - it's the kind of detail that draws the eye, one would imagine.

Its far more likely that they have some emergency device to get it filled with air again after they make an emergency landing to patch the hole than it is that Andi is expected to go up there or send someone up there with a needle and thread and crawl all over that thing looking for the leak while theyre still flying.
You don't need to land to put a patch on the balloon - just a piece of canvas and some glue. We know Andi is capable of doing on the fly repairs because she did them after the storm.

as a leader, Bandana kind of sucks.

[citation needed]

So very tired of posters just stating this, as if it was obvious.

GW

Keltest

2017-02-28, 09:57 AM

False. Elan and Roy were able to see from deck. Therefore Andi could as well. Especially with a passenger hanging near it - it's the kind of detail that draws the eye, one would imagine.

You don't need to land to put a patch on the balloon - just a piece of canvas and some glue. We know Andi is capable of doing on the fly repairs because she did them after the storm.

Roy and Elan saw the giants coming in and hit the balloon. If she wasn't watching the Giants as they came down (for example, because she was bickering with Bandana) then she wouldn't necessarily have seen where they hit the balloon. Intriguingly, the impact of the Giants landing actually caused Andi to close her eyes for... some reason. Frankly theyre lucky the giants came down next to an area with some rope. If Elan couldn't climb up there on his own, they were basically doomed then and there unless they had a Fly wand in storage somewhere (a possibility I am not ready to dismiss, admittedly).

And to our knowledge, the Balloon wasn't punctured during the storm. They would land because flying airships have turbulence, which as you can see, is bad for repairs, especially when you aren't a bard who can just spend six seconds casting a spell and be done, rather than actually sewing on a patch with your hands while dangling from a rope thousands of feet above the surface.

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 09:59 AM

Everything going on between these characters demonstrates the problems with a chaotic crew! Julio was able to keep things together because he had high charisma, but Bandana clearly lacks that quality

Only Andi has demonstrated any issue with Bandana's leadership, and she's the only one who has been causing troubles. The crew was pretty fine with obeying Bandana, and the one time they told her that their efforts wasn't rewarded enough, she got them the reward.

(in fact, Bandana is kind of a bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)).

Is Andi wrong? Yes!

But everyone is blaming her because they refuse to acknowledge that, as a leader, Bandana kind of sucks.

Please explain how Bandana is "kind of a bitch" and "kind of sucks".

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 10:18 AM

Roy and Elan saw the giants coming in and hit the balloon. If she wasn't watching the Giants as they came down (for example, because she was bickering with Bandana) then she wouldn't necessarily have seen where they hit the balloon.
How this addresses my point that Elan dangling next to the rip would help her find the hole, I don't know.

And to our knowledge, the Balloon wasn't punctured during the storm. They would land because flying airships have turbulence, which as you can see, is bad for repairs, especially when you aren't a bard who can just spend six seconds casting a spell and be done, rather than actually sewing on a patch with your hands while dangling from a rope thousands of feet above the surface.

No, it does not take longer. One {appropriate skill} check. If there is glue in this world, and there is canvas, then they can patch the hole. But Andi hasn't even bother assessing the damage.

Grey Wolf

KorvinStarmast

2017-02-28, 10:20 AM

Kish: why would speeding up bend the propellers? :smalleek:

Elros:
Strip 988. How does that establish Bandana as a bitch? You ever spent any time at sea? In a military unit? That's a leader dealing with a complaining subordinate. Standard back and forth, except for Andi being just rude and forgetting who Julio left in charge.

You did however make a good point: due to Julio's Charisma-first leadership style, his long experience, and his class levels, his not being there to hold it all together by force of personality (and persona?) is having a predictable effect.
Other egos are rubbing up against one another without an Alpha Dog to keep order in the pack. Indeed, as you pointed out, the problem with leadership and Chaotic Neutral ...

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 10:31 AM

You did however make a good point: due to Julio's Charisma-first leadership style, his long experience, and his class levels, his not being there to hold it all together by force of personality (and persona?) is having a predictable effect.

I really do not believe that Julio could have predicted Andi's irrational hate of Bandana. I don't think anyone could. By all accounts, Andi was a good crew member. She has unhinged before our very eyes: from fine, to a bit upset, to very upset, to mutiny, to shouting at a captive while the ship needs a captain.

Also, no, I do not believe this is a commentary on chaotic neutral organizations, not unless one subscribes to the "Andi is representative of the entire crew" argument, which is patently false.

GW

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 10:32 AM

You did however make a good point: due to Julio's Charisma-first leadership style, his long experience, and his class levels, his not being there to hold it all together by force of personality (and persona?) is having a predictable effect.
Other egos are rubbing up against one another without an Alpha Dog to keep order in the pack. Indeed, as you pointed out, the problem with leadership and Chaotic Neutral ...

Is the predictable effect "one of the crew member has illogical bias against the person left in charge, despite the others having no troubles obeying said person" ?

yldenfrei

2017-02-28, 10:56 AM

Reference strip ahoy! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) As of Frost Giant Boarding page, Andi was in the quarterdeck, with clear view of the main deck where the giants boarded and where Roy & Elan made their initial stand, and where Elan seems to run portside and a bit to the forecastle. The tear clearly goes to the underside of the balloon and should therefore be visible from where Andi was standing. (But hey, Andi was supposedly close-eyed for this whole page. :smallannoyed:)

As of 1601 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html) (past Andi close-eyes), Andi is still looking at the main deck, and should still have a clear view of Elan climbing up the ropes and the balloon tear. The only way she could miss that oh-so-obvious damage to the ship is if she's not minding the ship at all.

Seriously, are we so unreasonable to expect the engineer to, at the very least, be aware of a significant damage to a ship, and just take a look at it? Should we instead believe that said engineer has the ship's (at by extension its crew) interest at heart by whacking the captain and proceed to "steer the ship away" from danger (which are ON the ship) and into a very nice "skrrrrrrrrrrt!". Yes, good job Andi, you're really awesome at this.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 11:01 AM

If Andi can see Elan, then she knows the tear is taken care of and she doesn't have to worry about it.

Seriously guys, that argument is almost as bad as the "bandana is a terrible captain because Andi is insubordinate" argument.

Cozzer

2017-02-28, 11:03 AM

I think a big part of the problem is how the crew is facing way bigger problems (in scope at the very least) than what they're used to. Julio might have kept things together, and Bandana would probably have had no problem with a standard "adventure and loot" mission, but the combination of "suddenly the fate of the world is on our shoulders" and "suddenly we have to get adjusted to a new leader that hasn't proven herself yet" was lethal.

The comic very clearly estabishes Andi as being wrong, but not an Evil moustache-twirling villain. She didn't trust Bandana, the higher-than-usual amount of pressure pushed her (who's very clearly not leader material) to act rashly, and now she's trying to rationalize her rash decision, making more bad decisions in the process.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 11:12 AM

If Andi can see Elan, then she knows the tear is taken care of and she doesn't have to worry about it.

And yet she keeps making Elan fail. You can't have it both ways. Either she is not aware of the problem, demonstrating she doesn't care about the ship, or she is aware, and her actions are making Elan fail, demonstrating she doesn't care about the ship.

I think a big part of the problem is how the crew is facing way bigger problems (in scope at the very least) than what they're used to. Julio might have kept things together, and Bandana would probably have had no problem with a standard "adventure and loot" mission, but the combination of "suddenly the fate of the world is on our shoulders" and "suddenly we have to get adjusted to a new leader that hasn't proven herself yet" was lethal.

Oh, for crying out loud. Present evidence that the crew has problems adjusting to the new leader, and Andi doesn't count. They literally brought their issue up, and she addressed it. They are fine with Bandana.

GW

Keltest

2017-02-28, 11:18 AM

And yet she keeps making Elan fail. You can't have it both ways. Either she is not aware of the problem, demonstrating she doesn't care about the ship, or she is aware, and her actions are making Elan fail, demonstrating she doesn't care about the ship.

Oh please. She isn't making Elan fail in an act of desperate sabotage or something. Frankly, its Elan's own fault that he doesn't have the skills to cast through that. "the order is not an optimized party" yeah yeah, but you can only go so far before you get where "Elan made an abnormally dumb decision with his abilities" actually is abnormally dumb and not just "real person learning skills as they go" dumb, especially when they flat out crack a joke about how Elan is exceptional in this regard.

Quild

2017-02-28, 11:20 AM

I lost the content of quote war I prepared and didn't bother to "restore auto-saved content". I don't like quote war. I shouldn't bother.
Keltest seems better at explaining things than I am.

I've never been a supporter of Andi until I felt like she was accused of everything that goes (or might go) wrong.
She's a terrible crewmate with no respect for her captain and she makes her the worst person to contest her captain's decisions.

Cooling down, I agree that Andi's probably more contesting Bandana's decision than trying to enforce her point. She would likely blindly follow Julio's same decisions if he was still Captain.
I still believe that her decisions could theorically be better than Bandana's (for the safety of the ship. Not for the Order's mission). Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

I've seen players taking worst decisions with better cards in hand.

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 11:23 AM

I think a big part of the problem is how the crew is facing way bigger problems (in scope at the very least) than what they're used to. Julio might have kept things together, and Bandana would probably have had no problem with a standard "adventure and loot" mission, but the combination of "suddenly the fate of the world is on our shoulders" and "suddenly we have to get adjusted to a new leader that hasn't proven herself yet" was lethal.

The crew is pretty blasé and not interested about having the fate of the world on their shoulders, as long as they get money out of it.

If you're arguing that the crew is not used to that level of danger, bear in mind that Julio made them fly over a city where they were going to be shot at by siege engines on a whim. And it was the LG city-state, not the evil empire with the high-level rulers Julio has an habit to humiliate personally.

Cozzer

2017-02-28, 11:27 AM

Oh, for crying out loud. Present evidence that the crew has problems adjusting to the new leader, and Andi doesn't count. They literally brought their issue up, and she addressed it. They are fine with Bandana.

The fact that they didn't immediately put Andi out of commission and healed Bandana as soon as the assault started, and that they're still following (more or less grudgingly) Andi's orders now that Bandana woke up?

What happened after Andi knocked out Bandana is not what happens when the crew is wholeheartedly supporting their leader and their leader gets assaulted by a subordinate. Maybe, without Andi present, they would have followed Bandana to the end despite their doubts, but the doubts were there.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 11:32 AM

The fact that they didn't immediately put Andi out of commission and healed Bandana as soon as the assault started, and that they're still following (more or less grudgingly) Andi's orders now that Bandana woke up?

What happened after Andi knocked out Bandana is not what happens when the crew is wholeheartedly supporting their leader and their leader gets assaulted by a subordinate. Maybe, without Andi present, they would have followed Bandana to the end despite their doubts, but the doubts were there.

You mean, the crew should drop everything in the middle of a crisis to repeat the exact same bad decision Andi just made? That's a good way to crash the ship which is, lest you have forgotten, actively being attacked by Frost Giants and subsequently lost down a narrow valley it can barely fit through.

Elderand

2017-02-28, 11:37 AM

The fact that they didn't immediately put Andi out of commission and healed Bandana as soon as the assault started, and that they're still following (more or less grudgingly) Andi's orders now that Bandana woke up?

What happened after Andi knocked out Bandana is not what happens when the crew is wholeheartedly supporting their leader and their leader gets assaulted by a subordinate. Maybe, without Andi present, they would have followed Bandana to the end despite their doubts, but the doubts were there.

The reason why they didn't fight Andi is not because they secretely hate bandana, it's because they're in the middle of a goddamn life and death situation and unlike Andi, recognize that now is not the time to start infighting but to do their jobs until they're safe.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 11:40 AM

Oh please. She isn't making Elan fail in an act of desperate sabotage or something. Frankly, its Elan's own fault that he doesn't have the skills to cast through that.

I do not assign to malice what I can assign to incompetence. And Andi is being very incompetent, both as captain and as engineer. The very fact that a passenger is doing her job is proof of this. Yes, maybe the passenger is not great at the job they aren't supposed to be doing, but that doesn't somehow make the engineer less incompetent.

The fact that they didn't immediately put Andi out of commission and healed Bandana as soon as the assault started, and that they're still following (more or less grudgingly) Andi's orders now that Bandana woke up?

That is not proof that they were unhappy with Bandana, just proof that they, unlike Andi, understand the dangers of mutiny in battle. And I cannot fail to notice that they did in fact complain rather than, say, cheer, so they are unhappy about the change of leadership.

Grey Wolf

Cozzer

2017-02-28, 11:42 AM

So, in a crisis, the crew just starts following the orders of the person who knocked out the leader that they unanimously and completely trusted? They knew very well what Bandana wanted to do, and could have ignored Andi and kept course.

Again, Andi is very definitely wrong. But I believe that things wouldn't have gone this way if Bandana had been trusted as much as Julio (or even as she herself would have been trusted had this happened two or three months later) by the rest of the crew (and the fact that she wasn't is no fault of hers but simple bad luck).

That said, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 11:48 AM

I do not assign to malice what I can assign to incompetence. And Andi is being very incompetent, both as captain and as engineer. The very fact that a passenger is doing her job is proof of this. Yes, maybe the passenger is not great at the job they aren't supposed to be doing, but that doesn't somehow make the engineer less incompetent.

Either Andi should trust that Elan knows what he is doing and shouldn't worry about it, or she should assume that he isn't going to meaningfully impact the state of the ship anyway and not worry about providing him optimal conditions for his non-impact. You cant have it both ways.

yldenfrei

2017-02-28, 11:53 AM

Either Andi should trust that Elan knows what he is doing and shouldn't worry about it, or she should assume that he isn't going to meaningfully impact the state of the ship anyway and not worry about providing him optimal conditions for his non-impact. You cant have it both ways.
Fixing the tear herself/delegate someone else/just do anything to make sure the very significant damage is fixed not an option? So basically completely ignore her job as engineer. Got it. Andi's doing extremely well on that front.

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 11:53 AM

Either Andi should trust that Elan knows what he is doing and shouldn't worry about it, or she should assume that he isn't going to meaningfully impact the state of the ship anyway and not worry about providing him optimal conditions for his non-impact. You cant have it both ways.

In the first case, she should still try to not make things more complicated for him, at the best of everyone's capacities. In the second case, she should have someone she considers competent take care of the problem.

EDIT

Now, I admit that blaming her for Elan failing is kind of unfair, but I think that "failing to take into account the issues with the balloon repairs" is a failure of Andi's capabilities as a captain and as a head engineer.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 12:09 PM

Fixing the tear herself/delegate someone else/just do anything to make sure the very significant damage is fixed not an option? So basically completely ignore her job as engineer. Got it. Andi's doing extremely well on that front.

How many things do you think she can do at once? For better or worse, she ended up calling the shots on the ship, should she just abandon that and leave the crew without a captain at all? And who is she going to delegate? The crew immediately around her are kind of occupied with flying the ship without crashing it.

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 12:15 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 12:16 PM

How many things do you think she can do at once? For better or worse, she ended up calling the shots on the ship, should she just abandon that and leave the crew without a captain at all? And who is she going to delegate? The crew immediately around her are kind of occupied with flying the ship without crashing it.
Well, she clearly can "fly" the ship and shout at Bandana at the same time, so she has the extra time. As to crew availability, I think some of the people could be told to give priority to the gas bag. The beard guy, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) for example. The gas bag is a priority.

Edit: And of course, all this is conveniently ignoring my original response to you, that she could have reduced speed and therefore both assisted Elan and prevented the ship from crashing into a mountain in the first place.

GW

Unoriginal

2017-02-28, 12:21 PM

Edit: And of course, all this is conveniently ignoring my original response to you, that she could have reduced speed and therefore both assisted Elan and prevented the ship from crashing into a mountain in the first place.

She could have avoided crashing into a mountain if she's chosen the way sooner.

Keltest

2017-02-28, 12:23 PM

Well, she clearly can "fly" the ship and shout at Bandana at the same time, so she has the extra time. As to crew availability, I think some of the people could be told to give priority to the gas bag. The beard guy, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1066.html) for example. The gas bag is a priority. Mind you, you are the one that believes she knows about the problem - I still think that since she doesn't give a rat's ass about the ship, she doesn't even know there is a problem that needs fixing.

Edit: And of course, all this is conveniently ignoring my original response to you, that she could have reduced speed and therefore both assisted Elan and prevented the ship from crashing into a mountain in the first place.

GW

Airships aren't cars. Acceleration and inertia are both things. Slowing down for the turn would have kept them in the pass longer, which is the opposite of Andi's goal. That argument is tantamount to saying that she could have refrained from mutinying in the first place, which is also true, but fairly meaningless to the discussion.

And they hit the mountain because the valley is too small for the Mechane to fit through cleanly, not because they were going too fast.

And while I don't know what beard guy is going, I am rather skeptical that he has no job and is just waiting around for somebody to yell at him.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-02-28, 12:24 PM

She could have avoided crashing into a mountain if she's chosen the way sooner.

That too. The whole "reduce back to 1/3rd" was just an example of something Andi could have done. It is hardly the only way she could be assisting Elan & preventing further damage to the ship.

Edit:

Airships aren't cars. Acceleration and inertia are both things. Slowing down for the turn would have kept them in the pass longer, which is the opposite of Andi's goal.
<snip>
And they hit the mountain because the valley is too small for the Mechane to fit through cleanly, not because they were going too fast.
No, it was quite clearly was because she took too long to decide. If they had gone slower/decided sooner/both, the hit would likely been avoided. And blimps have very little of both acceleration and inertia.

And while I don't know what beard guy is going, I am rather skeptical that he has no job and is just waiting around for somebody to yell at him.

This is not a convincing argument.

GW

yldenfrei

2017-02-28, 12:36 PM

And while I don't know what beard guy is going, I am rather skeptical that he has no job and is just waiting around for somebody to yell at him.
I know, right?? It's like everyone has important jobs that they shouldn't leave. If only there was someone who was in charge of fixing the ship. Oh wait. :smallannoyed:

Sorry, this is not better, definitely worse. Yes, Andi should leave captainship. Preferably to someone who actually knows how to do it. Said person's awake now, btw.

EDIT: Also, riddle me this, Andi defenders: if Andi's real concern is the safety of the crew and the ship, and that turning off the pass has solved that concern, shouldn't she relinquish command back to Bandana? After all, she has supposedly accomplished what she needed to do. There are engineering duties that still need tending to.

Kish

2017-02-28, 08:53 PM

That is not proof that they were unhappy with Bandana, just proof that they, unlike Andi, understand the dangers of mutiny in battle. And I cannot fail to notice that they did in fact complain rather than, say, cheer, so they are unhappy about the change of leadership.
Indeed, the crew of the Mechane don't have weeks to argue over what to do before acting. They have seconds or minutes. Andi was enraged enough that that "stubborn little brat" would talk back to her to hit her on reflex and double down on having done so; everyone else on the Mechane needs more than a few seconds to decide "now's a time when assaulting a long-time colleague is the best course of action." This does not say something bad about the rest of the crew of the Mechane (and "they're ambivalent to positive about what Andi just did" would be something quite bad, whether the person proposing it sees it that way or not).

Marlowe

2017-02-28, 09:25 PM

Do we even know that the propellers ARE bent? Andi saying "the propellers are probably bent" as another thing to throw at Bandana isn't the same as proof. In fact, it seems more like showing how far she's willing to reach to find reasons to criticize her Captain.

Xyril

2017-03-01, 02:32 AM

A decent engineer would have at least glanced up to the gas bag to ascertain the reason and extent of the gas leak. Andi has not: a clear mark of her incompetence. Don't tell me that "she was too busy" - it's a bloody glance, and then an engineering decision of what to do about it (which, yes, could include "can't do anything for now"), but Andi hasn't even got that far.

Agreed. If even freakin' Elan can, in the middle of the fight, look up and notice that there's a engineering issue and realize that it must be remedied as soon as possible, then I have little respect or sympathy for a so-called expert in the field who still hasn't noticed the issue, even though she was on duty actively watching for such issues.

Also, make up your mind: if Andi is aware of Elan, then her actions are being done in full knowledge that turning and bumping against mountains might dislodge him. If she is unaware, then you accept that she is a poor engineer who hasn't even given one glance to see how bad the damage to the gas bag is.

Holding someone to a standard where their arguments are expected to be self-consistent is just another example of the Bandanna supporters, "the man," and rhetorical logic ganging up to oppress Andi supporters the way Bandanna and the author are ganging up on poor, innoocent Andi.

Jasdoif

2017-03-01, 02:48 AM

But her reasons for not continuing to face giants is either to avoid getting killed (she speaks about this concern in #1062) or to purely disagree with Bandana. Or both.Hmm...does "oh crap, I hit her and everyone saw it! I'm going to look really stupid if I don't stick with the course of action I ostensibly smacked her upside the head over" fall in the realm of "to purely disagree with Bandana"?

Rynjin

2017-03-01, 03:20 AM

Everything going on between these characters demonstrates the problems with a chaotic crew! Julio was able to keep things together because he had high charisma, but Bandana clearly lacks that quality (in fact, Bandana is kind of a bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)).

Man, what a bitch. Defusing an overly hostile crewmate with good humor and extremely gentle reminders of her authority!

How many things do you think she can do at once? For better or worse, she ended up calling the shots on the ship, should she just abandon that and leave the crew without a captain at all? And who is she going to delegate? The crew immediately around her are kind of occupied with flying the ship without crashing it.

Yeah, no. When you CREATE a problem you don't then get to claim your creation of said problem as an excuse for the results.

Her job was to be engineer. Fix the ship.

She CREATED this problem by also trying to be captain. And then made herself the de facto captain by assaulting the existing one.

"Oh but how much do you expect her to be able to do at once?"

I don't expect her to be able to be captain and chief engineer at the same time. Because she can't (and not just because she's proven incompetent at the latter of those jobs, and irresponsible with regards to the former).

That's the whole ****ing problem.

This is like me taking my hands off the steering wheel to eat a cheeseburger and then when the inevitable crash happens go "But how do you expect me to do both at once? It's not my fault!"

factotum

2017-03-01, 03:22 AM

Airships aren't cars. Acceleration and inertia are both things. Slowing down for the turn would have kept them in the pass longer, which is the opposite of Andi's goal.

Acceleration and inertia are things for cars as well, just FYI...that's why Formula 1 cars still can't go round hairpins at 200mph. As for the rest of this, they've *already left the pass* at the point Andi was being asked to make the turn decision, and are barrelling up a side valley--there was plenty of time to make the decision if she'd only been paying attention.

Oh, one other thing: if you genuinely believe that they only crashed into that mountain because the valley they're travelling down is too narrow for the Mechane to manoeuvre, then it was a mistake for Andi to turn down that valley in the first place! So, either she's wrong for having taken them off the main pass, or she's wrong for waiting so long to tell the helmsman which way to go once they were off it--which is it?

Quild

2017-03-01, 05:32 AM

Slowing down the mechane would have given more time to take a decision (which probably wouldn't have changed much) and would have helped to make the maneuver.
We don't know if scrapping the mountain caused more damages, but Elan could have succesfully cast his spell (even if I think something else would have occured because the point is either to show that Andi's action are causing trouble or that Elan won't be able to fix the leak).

On another hand, The Mechane may be losing altitude because of the leak. The more time it stays in the pass, the harder it is to get out of it.

Anyway, I notice that Andi checked the engines right after they got out of this problem.

GloatingSwine

2017-03-01, 05:38 AM

Slowing down the mechane would have given more time to take a decision (which probably wouldn't have changed much) and would have helped to make the maneuver.

Andi's ability to make a timely decision wasn't so much affected by the time available to make the decision, but the fact that she wasn't focused on doing so because she was too busy justifying her actions and then immediately went back to doing so.

martianmister

2017-03-01, 05:38 AM

How much difference between their ages? Bandana looks 8/9, while Andi looks 14/15/16.

Quild

2017-03-01, 08:13 AM

How much difference between their ages? Bandana looks 8/9, while Andi looks 14/15/16.

Bandana was 8 when Andi first came on the Mechane and Andi still was studying to become an engineer.

We know that Andi has been fixing the ship for fifteen years (#1043 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html)) now, so Bandana is at least 23.
We also know that Bandana is younger than Haley (#959 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html)) and that Haley is 25 or so (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24).

This should mean that Andi was really close of finishing her studies (or that she started repairing the Mechane before she finished them. Or that she never finished). So she's probably 17-19 while baby sitting Bandana and somewhere between 31 and 35 now while Bandana should be 23 or 24.

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 09:04 AM

Kish

2017-03-01, 09:12 AM

Without sharing the apparent bedrock assumption that Andi has been right about something that Bandana didn't address at some point (what, you never state--though looking again, it looks like you're saying that she should be assumed to be right without having to make an actual case because she's an engineer), that looks like it's implying that if Rich wanted Andi to be wrong, he needed to write her as such a nasty caricature that everyone (except the people who immediately jumped on Girard and Tarquin being right...at least I hope they wouldn't have to be included) would be wondering, "Why did Julio let this person stay on the ship for five minutes?"

(In case it's unclear: I reject your conclusion, both because it's unsupported and because it ignores something that's observable: a number of people on this board will cheer for a character who has been explicitly wrong about literally everything he's ever said as soon as that character is introduced and blows up the heroes of the comic with a bomb, and will never back down on doing so, the lack of support for what they're saying aside. Andi is a decently written antagonist, if not very nuanced; those people who don't admit she's an antagonist do not have a point. Bandana is a well-written and thoroughly likable character; those people who throw crap at her really do not have a point.)

hamishspence

2017-03-01, 09:32 AM

We also know that Bandana is younger than Haley (#959 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html)) and that Haley is 25 or so (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12254291&postcount=24).

Bandanna recognizing Haley is trying to play the "big sister role" isn't an absolute guarantee that Bandanna is younger than Haley - though it does seem plausible.

pendell

2017-03-01, 09:48 AM

I think Rich Burlew has a real dilemma on his hands when writing a conflict such as that between Andi and Bandanna.

If he writes Andi in such an obvious way that even a six-year-old reader can pick up that she's in the wrong, he's not writing a realistic or believable character. As he said through Redcloak's mouth, why doesn't he just give the character a mustache to twirl constantly?

I don't think Rich wants that. This story is all about the characters, not the plot. He's said so repeatedly. That means villains and NPCs of note are complex, sophisticated, with some redeeming qualities but also glaring flaws which make them into villains rather than heroes.

On the other hand, the more sophisticated and complex he makes his characters, the more plausible and believable they are in terms of both motivation and reaction to them, the more likely his readership will utterly miss the boat on these characters and misinterpret "villain with some sympathetic notes" as "true hero of the story."

This is a comic book audience, after all, targeted at adolescents. It's not exactly an age bracket noted for appreciation of characterization -- and schools don't really do much to teach critical appreciation of same :smallannoyed:.

So therein lies the dilemma. On the one hand Rich seems to have more of a desire to educate the next generation in ethics such as "killing children is bad, mkay?" . On the other hand, he also wants to write a sophisticated story with sophisticated characters for adults. I think that is part of his creative itch that pushes him to always challenge himself in this strip -- always working to improve, not only the art style but the portrayal of the characters in it.

The more he hammers home his point, the more crude and afterschool special-ish the story, the less satisfying to all his readers.

On the other hand, the more sophisticated and shades-of-gray and realistic he makes his characterization, the more likely someone will miss the point he's trying to make with them.

Now me, I'm a 45-year-old adult. If this comic were written for me I'd want to go full tilt for characterization and the funny, leaving the morality tale for Sunday school. I don't need to be lectured on adventuring ethics, and find that part of the story tiresome. But Rich evidently feels that is part of his obligation to the next generation, and if he wants to use his platform as an author to make the world a slightly better place I can't really disagree with him.

I don't really see this changing. He's not going to stop writing characters in as realistic a fashion as he can, even if the outer trappings of the story are fantastic. Which means we'll always be arguing about the motivation and the degree to which they are "good" or "bad", because they're not cardboard cutouts straight from a medieval passion play.

Hmmm ... maybe, from his perspective, that's a feature and not a bug? Because it keeps interest in the comic up between updates?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Cozzer

2017-03-01, 09:58 AM

Hmmm ... maybe, from his perspective, that's a feature and not a bug? Because it keeps interest in the comic up between updates?

You know, the situation could be seen as a "bug" only if you assume that you have to decide whether Andi or Bandana is 100% wrong and 100% the cause of the situation, with no third option.

My read of the situation is that Andi has a big part of the fault, but there are other reasons why the mutiny happened which were out of Andi and Bandana's hands. Bandana is clearly in the right here, but she's not the perfect aspect of perfectness. I like that interpretation, and find it way more interesting than "Andi has all the fault" or "Andi has no fault".

The false dichotomy between "Bandana has done literally no wrong ever and Andi's petty-mindedness is the one and only reason ever" and "Andi was right and the comic is wrong" is born from this thread, not from Rich's writing.

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 10:06 AM

You know, the situation could be seen as a "bug" only if you assume that you have to decide whether Andi or Bandana is 100% wrong and 100% the cause of the situation, with no third option.

My read of the situation is that Andi has a big part of the fault, but there are other reasons why the mutiny happened which were out of Andi and Bandana's hands. I like that interpretation, and find it way more interesting than "Andi has all the fault" or "Andi has no fault".

The false dichotomy between "Bandana has done literally no wrong ever and Andi's petty-mindedness is the one and only reason ever" and "Andi was right and the comic is wrong" is born from this thread, not from Rich's writing.

I don't know if I agree, I mean, by reading the last strip, it's outright stated: Andi's motives are born out of personal issues against Bandana, there are no shades of grey in the last panel, even if the explicit nature of Andi's admission is due to comedic effect.

As Brian P. says, it's very difficult to strike a balance.
Comedy thrives in exaggeration, serious characterization normally avoids it. Therefore, we bounce between seeing Andi as a real person who probably has valid reasons behind her thinking, and the punchline to the strip, which obviously doesn't benefit from over analyzing what's behind it.

Ruck

2017-03-01, 10:14 AM

This is a comic book audience, after all, targeted at adolescents.

I don't think that accurately describes OOTS. (One could reasonably argue that comics as a medium are not inherently targeted at adolescents, but that's a whole other thing.)

Unoriginal

2017-03-01, 10:15 AM

You know, the situation could be seen as a "bug" only if you assume that you have to decide whether Andi or Bandana is 100% wrong and 100% the cause of the situation, with no third option.

My read of the situation is that Andi has a big part of the fault, but there are other reasons why the mutiny happened which were out of Andi and Bandana's hands. Bandana is clearly in the right here, but she's not the perfect aspect of perfectness. I like that interpretation, and find it way more interesting than "Andi has all the fault" or "Andi has no fault".

The false dichotomy between "Bandana has done literally no wrong ever and Andi's petty-mindedness is the one and only reason ever" and "Andi was right and the comic is wrong" is born from this thread, not from Rich's writing.

Bandana has done literally no wrong concerning this situation*, and the blame lands squarely on Andi's shoulders.

It doesn't mean that Andi is a moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villain, but there is such thing as a developed character with layers that is 100% wrong in a situation.

*unless you consider "trusting Andi to not assault her" to be a mistake of her part.

Capt Spanner

2017-03-01, 10:16 AM

#1055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html) Andi suggests a course of action, Bandana doesn't take it into consideration without explaining why.

So, again... Did I miss something?

From that strip:

Andi: Bandana, we've got damage all over the ship! We need to turn around!

Bandana: Heck no! We're almost halfway! There's still a big bucket of giants back behind us that we just passed by. We'll take as much heat goin' back as we will goin' forward, so we might as well push through to the end!

Looks to me like Bandana considers it, and then explains why they're not following Andi's suggstion.

Peelee

2017-03-01, 10:16 AM

This is a comic book audience, after all, targeted at adolescents.

Source?

Wheeeeeee!

Kish

2017-03-01, 10:21 AM

Bandana has done literally no wrong concerning this situation*, and the blame lands squarely on Andi's shoulders.

It doesn't mean that Andi is a moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villain, but there is such thing as a developed character with layers that is 100% wrong in a situation.

*unless you consider "trusting Andi to not assault her" to be a mistake of her part.
I think it's accurate to say that "Bandana has done literally no wrong ever and Andi's petty-mindedness is the one and only reason ever" where "one and only reason ever" explicitly excludes "there are other reasons why the mutiny happened which were out of Andi and Bandana's hands" is indeed a false idea which originated in this thread.

What Cozzer didn't mention is that it also originated in that post and Cozzer came up with it. No one has yet said "the presence of frost giants had nothing to do with the mutiny," only that the repeated efforts by board posters to pin something, anything, on Bandana, when they can't get everyone to agree that she's guilty of generically being "a bitch," are logically valueless.

In other words: Bandana has done no wrong that anyone can actually point to without juking to make it "wrong" (though a scary number of people hate her for breathing anyway), and Andi's pettiness is the only reason for the mutiny that either of them had control or influence over or responsibility for (that control, influence, and responsibility all resting with Andi), though it is likely that had the Mechane proceeded to dwarven lands and let the PCs off without opposition, that pettiness would not have escalated above grumbling (while the Order was on the ship, anyway).

pendell

2017-03-01, 11:26 AM

Source?

Don't have it in front of me now and no time to look it up, but I've had discussions with Rich Burlew on this forum where I've commented on the need for morality tales, and his response was that he's not writing just for mature adults with fully developed moral compasses. He's also writing for teenagers who can reasonably roll a baby dragon on the encounter table and then kill it without a second thought.

My views are not his, but I respect them all the same.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-03-01, 11:30 AM

though a scary number of people hate her for breathing anyway

Given the overlap between pro-Andi posters and those who had a screaming fit when Bandana was outted a hundred strips ago, you're surprised?

Keltest

2017-03-01, 11:41 AM

Xyril

2017-03-01, 11:44 AM

I would like to offer an alternative point of view for this argument by taking a Doylist approach, as the Giant always does.
From a narrative perspective, we are supposed to root for Bandana. She is basically an incarnation of today's sacred idols, being a woman in a position of power and authority, that takes a proactive role in the story, isn't overtly feminine and has a sexualty in the LGBT spectrum. She's also sided with the protagonists.
Meanwhile, Andy is the Complainer,

Your logic appears sound for that first bit, at first glance. However, you don't really do is demonstrate how, using that same logic, Andi can be distinguished from Bandanna. Andi is a woman in authority (though not quite as high as Bandanna). Beyond that, she is a woman in authority in a STEM field, which by my reckoning puts her above Bandanna in the "sacred idol" count. Like Bandanna, she's taken a proactive role in the story, and while as far as I can recall her sexuality hasn't been specified, she's even less overtly feminine than Bandanna.

Plus, as much as "the Complainer" may be a trope, "the Cassandra" is a far older one in which Andi's role is more inherently sympathetic. While it's perhaps not a complete match, the modern day version of the Cassandra (the person who sees a problem, brings it to the attention of authority, and is dismissed or ignored because of her inexperience, gender, or identification with some group that is, as a whole, not taken too seriously.) If you describe Andi's role in the story in more vague, big picture terms, she's arguably Erin Brockovich, but if you look closer, she's Erin Brockovich if Erin Brockovich were more abrasive, less emotionally mature, and quite possibly wrong after all.

The only compelling distinction you point out is that Bandanna sided with the protagonists, whereas Andi acted perhaps not against them, but certainly in a while manner that was recklessly indifferent to the protagonists' mission. But once again, if you're taking the Doylist approach, this distinction shouldn't have the effect you describe. The Giant doesn't do black and white, us-vs-them binary morality for its own sake. Xykon is as close as we really get (in terms of mortal actors) to full out evil, mustache-twirling antagonist, and while he's not necessarily sympathetic as a person, he's entertaining and fairly likable as a character. Redcloak is pretty nuanced and sympathetic for an evil villain. Throw in Miko, Malack, and so many others, and we see numerous combinations of helping/hindering the heroes, being good/bad in universe, being likeable/unlikeable in universe, being interesting/uninteresting as characters, and being sympathetic/unsympathetic. So I don't find it particularly compelling to think that the reason Andi's written as the bad guy is that the Giant needed to create an obstacle for the Order at this point, and he's unable or unwilling to write someone as an obstacle without throwing her the jerk ball.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-01, 11:51 AM

Bandana well could have headed this off by relieving Andi of her post and confining her to her quarters until she gets her act together. Its understandable that she did not, and really, who expects someone who is nominally their friend and colleague to brain them with a wrench? But the solution was there and she could have taken it.

A "solution" that requires a crystal ball and ranks in epic scrying is not a solution at all. Now, it is altogether possible I missed it, but unless you recommended this before strip #1062, this is a post-hoc excuse. If Andi had indeed confined pre-1062 Andi to her quarters, we'd be awash with the same people claiming that Bandana is a bitch for doing that to Andi, who had done nothing to deserve it.

GW

littlebum2002

2017-03-01, 11:54 AM

we'd be awash with the same people claiming that Bandana is a bitch for doing that to Andi, who had done nothing to deserve it.

GW

And perhaps a crew member who is so upset with Bandana for imprisoning a loyal member of the crew that they're willing to brain Bandana with a wrench and take over.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-01, 11:57 AM

And perhaps a crew member who is so upset with Bandana for imprisoning a loyal member of the crew that they're willing to brain Bandana with a wrench and take over.

Good point. Reminds me of this great quote:

“Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot him and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?”

~ Terry Pratchett

littlebum2002

2017-03-01, 12:01 PM

Good point. Reminds me of this great quote:

“Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot him and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?”

~ Terry Pratchett

Or like if you go back in time and accidentally kill your grandfather but then end up sleeping with your grandmother and end up ensuring you are going to be born anyway. Otherwise known as "doing the nasty in the past-y".

Unoriginal

2017-03-01, 12:04 PM

Honestly, given Andi's behavior up to this point, the argument could be made. This isn't the first instance of Andi's unreasonableness, just the first one to actually affect the ship and crew. Bandana well could have headed this off by relieving Andi of her post and confining her to her quarters until she gets her act together. Its understandable that she did not, and really, who expects someone who is nominally their friend and colleague to brain them with a wrench? But the solution was there and she could have taken it.

The only way this argument could be made if if one is to admit that Andi was shown to be too untrustworthy to be allowed outside of her quarters during a crisis before.

Bandana responded to Andi uselessly complaining and disagreeing by telling her "go do your flipping job, now!" If Andi had refused with words, then Bandana would probably have asked others to get Andi out of her face. But Andi went straight to violence, which no one (Andi included) was prepared for.

Kish

2017-03-01, 12:11 PM

I don't think there's necessarily a significant amount of overlap between "being a teenager" and "being someone who plays D&D for fun fights and scoffs at the notion that there's a problem with absolute racial morality."

Rich may have said that he thinks there is, of course--but I confess I'm skeptical of the strict accuracy of pendell's paraphrase (not that I doubt he's reporting what he remembers, but that I suspect he may have seen one or more implications that Rich didn't actually state).

(You can correlate "teenager" with "likes mindless violence," but in my observation, it's at least as accurate to correlate it with "cares passionately about various causes that older people sneer 'you just don't know better yet' at.")

Quild

2017-03-01, 12:11 PM

From that strip:

Andi: Bandana, we've got damage all over the ship! We need to turn around!

Bandana: Heck no! We're almost halfway! There's still a big bucket of giants back behind us that we just passed by. We'll take as much heat goin' back as we will goin' forward, so we might as well push through to the end!

Looks to me like Bandana considers it, and then explains why they're not following Andi's suggstion.

While Andi proposes something else later on (turning off instead of turning back, I believe there's a difference) it probably actually wasn't such a bad idea in order to secure The Mechane.

A fair part of the giants they went through has been killed by V, Haley and Belkar. If they turned back, they would have les giants to face and maybe could even slow down to have their path cleaned (provided The Order accepts to cover this retreat).
They would have avoided the casters (so they would still have V and Haley) and the warriors (no leak and maybe no death).

Now, for the "selfish" crew of The Mechane, it was a good thing since they (quite certainly wrongly) do not really consider that the world is at risk.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-01, 12:21 PM

While Andi proposes something else later on (turning off instead of turning back, I believe there's a difference)
Yes, there is a difference: the first, like Bandana's plan, only involves facing about half the giants. The current plan involves trapping the Mechane at a dead-end, giving the entire giant force time to come at them. Or alternatively, if it turns out it is a pass, finding out why this is not marked as a safe pass.

it probably actually wasn't such a bad idea in order to secure The Mechane.
Yes, who cares about saving the world? It's not like they live there or anything.

A fair part of the giants they went through has been killed by V, Haley and Belkar. If they turned back, they would have les giants to face and maybe could even slow down to have their path cleaned (provided The Order accepts to cover this retreat).
Which they wouldn't, and the entire crew knows it. Any plan that involves the Order allowing the world to be destroyed is literally too stupid to suggest... and yet, here we are.

They would have avoided the casters (so they would still have V and Haley) and the warriors (no leak and maybe no death).
On the other hand, without the Order screening their advance retreat, they would have been easy pickings for the other giants.

Now, for the "selfish" crew of The Mechane, it was a good thing since they (quite certainly wrongly) do not really consider that the world is at risk.
And yet no-one wanted this plan. Because chaotic or not, they took the money, and they trust Bandana's judgement.

Grey Wolf

The_Weirdo

2017-03-01, 12:56 PM

Given the overlap between pro-Andi posters and those who had a screaming fit when Bandana was outted a hundred strips ago, you're surprised?

Out of sheer bile fascination, could you give me a link?

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 01:12 PM

Your logic appears sound for that first bit, at first glance. However, you don't really do is demonstrate how, using that same logic, Andi can be distinguished from Bandanna. Andi is a woman in authority (though not quite as high as Bandanna). Beyond that, she is a woman in authority in a STEM field, which by my reckoning puts her above Bandanna in the "sacred idol" count. Like Bandanna, she's taken a proactive role in the story, and while as far as I can recall her sexuality hasn't been specified, she's even less overtly feminine than Bandanna.

Plus, as much as "the Complainer" may be a trope, "the Cassandra" is a far older one in which Andi's role is more inherently sympathetic. While it's perhaps not a complete match, the modern day version of the Cassandra (the person who sees a problem, brings it to the attention of authority, and is dismissed or ignored because of her inexperience, gender, or identification with some group that is, as a whole, not taken too seriously.) If you describe Andi's role in the story in more vague, big picture terms, she's arguably Erin Brockovich, but if you look closer, she's Erin Brockovich if Erin Brockovich were more abrasive, less emotionally mature, and quite possibly wrong after all.

The only compelling distinction you point out is that Bandanna sided with the protagonists, whereas Andi acted perhaps not against them, but certainly in a while manner that was recklessly indifferent to the protagonists' mission. But once again, if you're taking the Doylist approach, this distinction shouldn't have the effect you describe. The Giant doesn't do black and white, us-vs-them binary morality for its own sake. Xykon is as close as we really get (in terms of mortal actors) to full out evil, mustache-twirling antagonist, and while he's not necessarily sympathetic as a person, he's entertaining and fairly likable as a character. Redcloak is pretty nuanced and sympathetic for an evil villain. Throw in Miko, Malack, and so many others, and we see numerous combinations of helping/hindering the heroes, being good/bad in universe, being likeable/unlikeable in universe, being interesting/uninteresting as characters, and being sympathetic/unsympathetic. So I don't find it particularly compelling to think that the reason Andi's written as the bad guy is that the Giant needed to create an obstacle for the Order at this point, and he's unable or unwilling to write someone as an obstacle without throwing her the jerk ball.
If you are unwilling to believe this, there's not much I could say to change your mind.
However, let me point out that the rest of your post actually proves my point. Yes, Andi is also a sympathetic character, if not to the same extent as Bandana. Which, if you read my post, you'll notice is exactly what I'm saying. Her role in the story, as unequivocally revealed in this last strip, was to provide a naysayer to oppose Bandana. Unfortunately, the naysayer was far too likeable and it didn't have the intended effect for everyone.
Cue Internet arguing and drama, with people overanalyzing the characters and overthinking what is actually a fairly simple situation.
Andi is not right because the Giant doesn't want her to be. Whatever reasons you may find to defend her position are entirely your own speculation and, as of this last strip, are unsupported by her outright stating how petty and immature she is.
The problem is that this reveal gave the people that didn't think she was entirely wrong a bit of a narrative whiplash. A character that appeared, to some, to be at least in the grey area of motivations and right vs wrong is now revealed as biased and entirely wrong in her motivations, making her much harder to like. Obviously some readers had already started to like her, perhaps exactly because she was standing up for herself against authority, perhaps because as I mentioned before, technicians are rarely listened to by those in charge when it would be unconvenient to do so, therefore making at least some of us familiar with the situation presented in the strip on a personal level. Whatever the reason, some people liked her and now they are "wrong", because she's proven that she has some farly significant flaws that put everything in perspective.
People don't like being wrong about who or what they like and are defending her even if it means disregarding the narrative intent of this whole setup.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-01, 01:18 PM

Out of sheer bile fascination, could you give me a link?

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17825455&postcount=87).

Grey Wolf

Peelee

2017-03-01, 01:21 PM

Don't have it in front of me now and no time to look it up, but I've had discussions with Rich Burlew on this forum where I've commented on the need for morality tales, and his response was that he's not writing just for mature adults with fully developed moral compasses. He's also writing for teenagers who can reasonably roll a baby dragon on the encounter table and then kill it without a second thought.

My views are not his, but I respect them all the same.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That means he's targeting all ages, not just adolescents.

Rynjin

2017-03-01, 01:31 PM

However, let me point out that the rest of your post actually proves my point. Yes, Andi is also a sympathetic character, if not to the same extent as Bandana. Which, if you read my post, you'll notice is exactly what I'm saying. Her role in the story, as unequivocally revealed in this last strip, was to provide a naysayer to oppose Bandana. Unfortunately, the naysayer was far too likeable and it didn't have the intended effect for everyone.

Likable by what metric? She's abrasive, petty, short-sighted, violent, judgemental, and arguably racist.

If Andi is a likable character to you, I'd hate to see what you consider UN-likable.

pendell

2017-03-01, 01:38 PM

Andi is not right because the Giant doesn't want her to be.

While from a strictly technical perspective that's true, as nothing happens in the strip absent the author's wishes, I don't think that's really fair.

Andi didn't definitively cross the line into wrong until she hit Bandanna with a wrench.

But before that there had been tension between them, foreshadowed by Rich, by her continued complaints about being paid, her unwillingness to be satisfied when the rest of the crew was , by her calling out Bandanna for "fun times" which involved nearly being killed by a flesh golem, and by the fact that Bandanna had to remind her that she was Captain.

This has been coming for awhile, and Andi has been in the wrong for all of it. We haven't seen any evidence on-panel that Bandana was incompetent, and "older crewperson having issues taking orders from a young officer" had been the most likely reason for the tension even before Rich made that official this strip.

So I don't see anything out of character here; I see Rich building up for a confrontation and mutiny by Andi at least since the Gnomish town. He hasn't made any sudden adjustments to her character to make her less likeable or obviously idiot balled; we've been building toward this for -- quite possibly -- the entire book so far.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 02:00 PM

Likable by what metric? She's abrasive, petty, short-sighted, violent, judgemental, and arguably racist.

If Andi is a likable character to you, I'd hate to see what you consider UN-likable.

I don't particularly care for her, actually, at most I could say that coming from a Star Trek background, I'm a bit sick of the engineer saying "she can't take it anymore!", being told to shut up and work by the captain and being regularly proven wrong when everything goes as the captain planned. I would love it if just one time when the guy keeping the space/airship operational said "We are going to blow up if we go trough with this" the captain would answer "Oh, ok, let's think of something else then". Or actually blew up. But that's quite off topic and just a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
Back on topic, as you can deduce by the very existance of this thread and the ongoing debate in it, some people obviously like her, so I don't really get what your point is.

Rynjin

2017-03-01, 02:07 PM

Kalmageddon

2017-03-01, 02:13 PM

Everybody is liked by somebody. I just want to know WHY. They keep making these absolute value statements like "And is likable" and "Bandana is incompetent" with zero to back it up.

This thread has gone on long enough for me to say there are a lot of people who like Hitler too, and it usually says something about their own personality.

And with you bringing Hitler into this, you have completely put me off any further discussion. Or should I say "führer" discussion? Regardless, I leave this topic, never to return to its tarnished pages.
Farewell gents.

Rynjin

2017-03-01, 02:32 PM

All according to keikaku.

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-01, 03:23 PM

Regarding ... The complainer is always wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong)

Cassandra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra)called, and wants to remind you that she wasn't wrong. Andi is no Cassandra.

As to whatever Rich's challenges are as a writer, the slow simmer to a final break down is not an uncommon narrative. I recommend to any of you the movie Falling Down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Down) with Michael Douglas that follows that particular theme to an interesting conclusion.

Spoiler: Michael Douglas plays a technically competent person who runs into one frustration after another and then, to put it mildly, goes all wrench to the head during various scenes. But unlike a lot of "underdog against the system" stories, the narrative does not take the conventional plot line.

Peelee

2017-03-01, 03:36 PM

Rogar Demonblud

2017-03-01, 03:51 PM

Out of sheer bile fascination, could you give me a link?

No, because it would take a (not very illuminating) screen shot. Many of the pro-Andi camp are people I blocked during the previous eruption.

The_Weirdo

2017-03-01, 04:06 PM

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17825455&postcount=87).

Grey Wolf

Thanks, Greyview!

*Gives treat*

Ruck

2017-03-01, 05:05 PM

Plus, as much as "the Complainer" may be a trope, "the Cassandra" is a far older one in which Andi's role is more inherently sympathetic. While it's perhaps not a complete match, the modern day version of the Cassandra (the person who sees a problem, brings it to the attention of authority, and is dismissed or ignored because of her inexperience, gender, or identification with some group that is, as a whole, not taken too seriously.) If you describe Andi's role in the story in more vague, big picture terms, she's arguably Erin Brockovich, but if you look closer, she's Erin Brockovich if Erin Brockovich were more abrasive, less emotionally mature, and quite possibly wrong after all.

Cassandra was right (and Andi isn't "quite possibly wrong," she's definitely wrong), and Erin Brockovich wasn't trying to satisfy a petty grudge.

Or like if you go back in time and accidentally kill your grandfather but then end up sleeping with your grandmother and end up ensuring you are going to be born anyway. Otherwise known as "doing the nasty in the past-y".

Ooh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-my-own-grandpa.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-01, 06:12 PM

Thanks, Greyview!

*Gives treat*

Is futile to reason with Andi devotees. Nod. Get treat.

atemu1234

2017-03-02, 02:57 AM

Look, from all that we've viewed thus far of Andi's logic, she's been wrong. She was angry the ship got fixed by gnomes - Bandana told her to get over it - and there's no reason why she shouldn't have. The ship was fixed, and heck, it even saved Andi some labor, and definitely a chunk of time. Bandana got the pirates more money when they were upset with the length of the trip. Heck, that wasn't enough to Andi.

Andi did this almost solely because of how she views Bandana - as the same child who came aboard giant-knows how many years ago. And she holds a grudge.

Bandana has done everything correct, by the standards of common sense. Andi's mutiny was unexpected, and quite frankly, never should have happened.

So, in the long run, is Andi wrong? By every objective measure, yes.

Could, theoretically, some of her decisions work out for the better in the short run? Who knows? Maybe by turning right instead of left, they avoided more giants. Or maybe they're flying into a bunch of them right now. Who can say? But insofar as Andi's reasoning goes, she's wrong.

factotum

2017-03-02, 04:12 AM

Likable by what metric? She's abrasive, petty, short-sighted, violent, judgemental, and arguably racist.

Belkar is all of those things and a guiltless multiple murderer as well--if Andi were like him Bandana would have been hanging from the ship by her own intestines within minutes of Julio's carpet disappearing out of sight. Yet people still like the guy.

Cazero

2017-03-02, 07:11 AM

Nightcanon

2017-03-02, 07:49 AM

Belkar is all of those things and a guiltless multiple murderer as well--if Andi were like him Bandana would have been hanging from the ship by her own intestines within minutes of Julio's carpet disappearing out of sight. Yet people still like the guy.

Belkar is a separate case. He's been in the story since strip 1, when it was a gag-a-strip based on D&D rules and breaking the fourth wall. He has represented the amoral murderhobo; then, as the comic progressed, something like the player of the amoral murderhobo, who sits at the table complaining that there isn't enough combat going on and disrupting the rest of the game for everyone else. Since the Mark of Justice episode and being warned as to his future conduct, he is playing the rest of the game more actively, albeit with dubious sincerity. As a starting member of the Order of the Stick, however, this is in part Belkar's story, and part of the rest of this story is whether or not Belkar managed to redeem himself in some way (just as V's redemption will be determined by future events). People like Belkar because he has been in the comic for nearly 15 years and delivered the punchlines when it was about gags, and some character development when it become something more complex. Because of Roy's careful management of him, Belkar's potential to become more evil than the theoretical offspring of Genghis Khan and Cruella DeVille has been diverted might just end up helping to save the world and the millions of lives therein.
Andi meanwhile is not a protagonist, nor even at this point an antagonist. She's just minor character who in other circumstances might have done little of consequence. However, she does have flaws, and at this point in the story her role appears to be 'minor character who through her flaws ends up making the life of the heroes more difficult, despite an absence of outright or deliberate maliciousness'.

Quild

2017-03-02, 08:26 AM

Yes, there is a difference: the first, like Bandana's plan, only involves facing about half the giants. The current plan involves trapping the Mechane at a dead-end, giving the entire giant force time to come at them. Or alternatively, if it turns out it is a pass, finding out why this is not marked as a safe pass.

Yes, who cares about saving the world? It's not like they live there or anything.

Which they wouldn't, and the entire crew knows it. Any plan that involves the Order allowing the world to be destroyed is literally too stupid to suggest... and yet, here we are.

On the other hand, without the Order screening their advance retreat, they would have been easy pickings for the other giants.

And yet no-one wanted this plan. Because chaotic or not, they took the money, and they trust Bandana's judgement.
Bandana herself says that the problem with turning off the pass is that they'd have to eyeball their path the whole way and [...] might end up in a dead end, hemmed by mountains they can't fly overThe fact that only the main/best path is mapped does not mean that there's no other path, especially for an unloaded ship (the gas leak might be a problem though). We have no way to know
Now, I don't know if eyeballing the whole path is a bigger risk than being hit by rocks, but for the other part of the sentence, "might" is kind of a key word.

Have a look at [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html"]#1044 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html) :
What Bandana's map show is the "best paths" (panel3).
The Mechane has a maximum altitude of 10 000 feet which is barely more than the others ships (panel 2), but these paths are also intended for ships that are heavily loaded (panel 5) and thus fly at lower altitude. Also, ships don't fly at their maximum altitude (panel 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1051.html)).

The fact that only the main/best path is mapped does not mean that there's no other path, especially for an unloaded ship (the gas leak might be a problem though). We have no way to know how big a risk that is compared to facing the giants. I don't think that Andi and the crew are dumb enough to make a suicidal decision. Even if you consider that Andi thinks any decision different than Bandana's is the right one and the crew just go with it. And even if The Mechane crashes in the end, I don't think they'd be in a worse position to fight the giants.

Regarding the half-turn, we already know that the crew isn't very concerned by the threat on the world (panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html)). I too consider that they're wrong and should take this threat seriously, but the fact remains, they're not very concerned. They don't think it's serious.
But the funny thing is that if the Order fails at his mission... The gods would undo the world and all souls would be saved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html). It certainly is a problem for the dwarven souls and the ones that are going to live in world 3.0, but for the crew, it's less a problem than if the Snarl ends being freed.
You and I know the story will end well, the crew has no idea of what the real threat is, but... The Order failing on this mission is not the worst case scenario.

Now, the idea that chaotic characters have to be lawful when they're paid for it is quite puzzling to me. Is that a rule somewhere?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-02, 08:51 AM

We have no way to know how big a risk that is compared to facing the giants.
And how is this supposed to be a defence of Andi's actions? You are saying that as long as Andi's plan has a chance to work, no matter how unlikely, it is better than Bandana's plan - even though that one, too had a chance of working, probably a much higher one. Hypocrisy much?

I don't think that Andi and the crew are dumb enough to make a suicidal decision. Even if you consider that Andi thinks any decision different than Bandana's is the right one and the crew just go with it. And even if The Mechane crashes in the end, I don't think they'd be in a worse position to fight the giants.
Really. You don't see the difference when fighting giants between being in a mobile flying vehicle and a marooned one.

Now, the idea that chaotic characters have to be lawful when they're paid for it is quite puzzling to me. Is that a rule somewhere?
A chaotic character doesn't follow any rules or laws other than those they set for themselves. You can trust a chaotic character to keep their word.

I don't think that Andi and the crew are dumb enough to make a suicidal decision.
Andi has committed mutiny. That is already a suicidal decision. The rest of the crew is not making any decisions other than not becoming mutineers themselves.

GW

martianmister

2017-03-02, 09:45 AM

People like Belkar as a character. Not as a person. Nobody opened a thread claiming Belkar was right to murder a random gnome to steal his cart or to force-feed a gladiator his own intestines.

You must be new here.

hamishspence

2017-03-02, 09:57 AM

She's just minor character who in other circumstances might have done little of consequence. However, she does have flaws, and at this point in the story her role appears to be 'minor character who through her flaws ends up making the life of the heroes more difficult, despite an absence of outright or deliberate maliciousness'.

I would suggest she has outright maliciousness toward Bandanna at least, if not necessarily anyone else so far.

Quild

2017-03-02, 10:10 AM

And how is this supposed to be a defence of Andi's actions? You are saying that as long as Andi's plan has a chance to work, no matter how unlikely, it is better than Bandana's plan - even though that one, too had a chance of working, probably a much higher one. Hypocrisy much?

Really. You don't see the difference when fighting giants between being in a mobile flying vehicle and a marooned one.

A chaotic character doesn't follow any rules or laws other than those they set for themselves. You can trust a chaotic character to keep their word.

Andi has committed mutiny. That is already a suicidal decision. The rest of the crew is not making any decisions other than not becoming mutineers themselves.

It wouldn't be a defense if there wasn't an attack on Andi's plan being worse. We have no way of knowing which plan has the higher chance to work. You're rooting for Bandana so you assume her plan is the better one because she's the one chosen by Julio and not Andi who you despise. Because Andi is despicable and stupid by saying that everything Bandana does is wrong, you assume everything Andi does is wrong.
I don't care which plan is the better one. Maybe the two are good enough, maybe the two are wrong. But stop pretending we know the answer already and stop pretending Andi is doing such an obvious error.

I don't understand the "marooned" term, but Roy and Elan are kinda useless on the ship and the crew is busy non-fighting. Sure, the giants are better at combat than at throwing rocks (+18 melee (3d6+13/x3) instead of +9 ranged (2d6+9)), but at least they can fight back. The giants are very dispersed on the mountain and are unlikely to be fought all in the same time, Haley, V and Belkar are already doing a genocide and Roy has plenty of potions. These normal giants are CR9... Yeah, would I be Roy I'd rather face them on ground.
Roy expect to die (again) if the ship goes down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html) (which is really different than crashing on a mountain because you're not high enough). It's like Vader taking a TIEfighter against the rebels. While he can easily wipe them on the ground, he's only one blaster hit away from being dead when he's in the space.

I was being sarcastic at you assuming that the crew have to keep their word since they accepted the money... I quote "Because chaotic or not, they took the money, and they trust Bandana's judgement.". Surely you're trolling at this point.
Edit: Oops, I read a negative that wasn't there. Anyway, saying that a chaotic character does not follow any rule but can be trust on his word is... Weird.

I never saw mutiny as a suicidal decision. It was argued already that it's better to do your mutiny in the middle of a quiet moment rather than in a middle of a problem and I agree with that, but... When your leader is leading you into the tomb, it's not suicidal to stop him. On the contrary. Now if you're wrong yourself by thinking that is another matter, but... Again, Andi being wrong is kind of the middle of the discussion.

You do realize that as long the crew isn't wiped out after all this, it will be hard to prove that Andi took the wrong decision? Because we'll know her decision ended with surviving of the crew, but we won't know what Bandana's would have turned into.
I kinda expect a crash in the mountains and a long walk (or flight with Haley's wand if she has enough charge for everyone which isn't sure considering the wands aren't new) after that, but I don't see how the Order won't be super late in that scenario.
I don't expect a grim scenario where the order continues it's walk while Bandana, Andi, Felix, Carol, Kwesi, Mateo and the other ones are left dead in the mountain. Really.

Also, since fresh helium is conjured from the Elemental Plane of Air (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1049.html), it does not matter how long it takes to fix the leak as long as they don't crash (and Roy doesn't die).

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-02, 10:25 AM

Ooh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-my-own-grandpa. Where did all you zombies come from? :smallcool:

Is futile to reason with Andi devotees. Nod. Get treat. or get a wrench to the head ...

The ship was fixed, and heck, it even saved Andi some labor, and definitely a chunk of time. Bandana got the pirates more money when they were upset with the length of the trip. Heck, that wasn't enough to Andi. QFT

Belkar is all of those things and a guiltless multiple murderer as well--if Andi were like him Bandana would have been hanging from the ship by her own intestines within minutes of Julio's carpet disappearing out of sight. Yet people still like the guy. Belkar's reminds of that complete (expletive deleted) that a girl you know keeps dating and falls for, because she believes she can reform/improve him. And of course, it ends in tears and sometimes bruises. :smallyuk:

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-02, 10:32 AM

Andi who you despise. ... you assume everything Andi does is wrong...Surely you're trolling at this point.

And off to the ignore list you go.

GW

littlebum2002

2017-03-02, 10:39 AM

I'm amazed at the lengths people will go to try and argue that committing mutiny in the middle of a battle is anything except a terrible, terrible decision.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-02, 10:55 AM

Belkar's reminds of that complete (expletive deleted) that a girl you know keeps dating and falls for, because she believes she can reform/improve him. And of course, it ends in tears and sometimes bruises. :smallyuk:

Actually, and please note this in no way compensates for or excuses any other action of Belkar, he does not seem to be an abusive boyfriend at all. What he looks for in women is quick, unattached sex. Now, that doesn't prevent a woman from getting the wrong impression (as we saw at the thieves' guild), but Belkar doesn't care enough about his paramours to become abusive towards them, I don't think.

And to restate my above point: he's nevertheless still an evil, immoral serial killer.

GW

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-02, 10:59 AM

I'm amazed at the lengths people will go to try and argue that . Stubbornness is a quality humans have, and I stubbornly agree with you that "committing mutiny in the middle of a battle is anything except a terrible, terrible decision." :smallbiggrin:

That said, in college we did the play "The Cain Mutiny Court Martial." Worth a read.

Unoriginal

2017-03-02, 11:07 AM

[QUOTE=Quild;21763491The fact that only the main/best path is mapped does not mean that there's no other path[/QUOTE]

No, but it means that IF there is one, it's not mapped. Uncharted, unknown, impossible to predict.

Quild

2017-03-02, 11:07 AM

I'm amazed at the lengths people will go to try and argue that committing mutiny in the middle of a battle is anything except a terrible, terrible decision.

{Scrubbed}

Joke aside, this mutiny in the middle of the battle is a mutiny to end the battle.
When Theon got betrayed after is YOLO speech (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AylmQpEcAs), the Ironborns got to survive instead of death or worse.

@Unoriginal : I'm aware of that. If this was a perfect solution, Bandana would have sized it obviously.

littlebum2002

2017-03-02, 11:15 AM

Joke aside, this mutiny in the middle of the battle is a mutiny to end the battle.
When Theon got betrayed after is YOLO speech (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AylmQpEcAs), the Ironborns got to survive instead of death or worse.

You don't mutiny in the middle of battle. Period, the end. There's no way it will end well for you. There's no way battles go "better" after a change of leadership in the middle of them. There's a reason why "cut the head off a snake" is a legitimate battle tactic: no matter how inefficient a captain is, his army will never be "better off" if he dies in the middle of battle. You're just asking for the entire group to descend into chaos.

Whether or not Andi and Bandana are good or bad people, or good or bad commanders, commuting mutiny during the middle of battle is a terribly stupid idea. If you can find me even one person in history with command experience who has ever said this might be a good idea, I'll agree with you. But you won,t because everyone who knows even the slightest thing about battle knows how terrible of an idea this is.

When your leader is leading you into the tomb, it's not suicidal to stop him. On the contrary.

Except that they're already in the tomb.

Your leader leads you into a tomb, stupidly. You're being attacked by mummies, and they're overpowering you. The way out is 100% blocked. What a dumb decision to lead us into the tomb! The obvious solution is to kill our leader, right now! That will surely solve the problem.

I mean I'm sure I can think of a stupider thing to do if I really gave it a lot of thought, but I'm honestly struggling to.